is love marriage acceptance

[skmr9246]

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i just want to know
a)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin girl and non brahmin boy
b)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin boy and non brahmin girl

which one is accepted and which is rejected please state the reasons please answer it

 

[hariharan1972]

in my book, marriage without love is to be rejected. everything else is to be accepted.

btw, isnt marriage a decision taken by 2 consenting adults ? where is the question of 'acceptance' here ?

 

[Manohar]

answer to love marriage

Whether it is a brahmin boy and a non brahmin girl or a brahmin girl and a non brahmin boy the brahmin family will divide. It would be worse if the non brahmin is a christian. Several families have been divided and several aged parents are left to struggle for survival and to take care.

If we learn our community and tradition first, our mind set will not allow us to fall in love with a non brahmin or atleast we will not disclose the love atall.

Help out community girls to settle on marriage.

 

[RVR]

Present generation youngsters have to first understand that marriage is not an activity of just two persons. It is integration of not only two immediate families but several other close relative families also. Once the concept of integration of families are understood, then chance of divorce is practically very remote.

During earlier generations, were arranged marriages are the most common practice, there was hardly few separations after the marriage. On the contrary, we see lot of divorces taking place now on a regular basis

Our youngsters are getting married only around 25 plus or minus now and at this age they are suppose to display lot of maturity. If both parents agree, then caste or religion or race need not be a bottle neck.

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[suvarchas]

i just want to know
a)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin girl and non brahmin boy
b)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin boy and non brahmin girl

which one is accepted and which is rejected please state the reasons please answer it

Can you please elaborate from what perspective are you asking for acceptance or otherwise?

 

[GopalaswamyShridharan]

Boy and girl can mate and live together,without religious ceremony too.But,as a society has perfunctory roles of behaviour,such shastrams,culture,tradition and religion as an organised tool,was set in place.These are human mades laws and regulation.In order to survive comfortably,its better brahmin boys and girls marry within their brahmin community.No crime is committed,if they do not marry also or marry from different communities,as long as they can take care of themselves,without being a pain in the neck for themselves,parents,in laws,extended family and friends.Thank you.

gopal.

 

[Eastern Mind]

i just want to know
a)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin girl and non brahmin boy
b)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin boy and non brahmin girl

which one is accepted and which is rejected please state the reasons please answer it

No one will know what will happen. Each individual case is so very different. Orthodox, liberal. religious, non-religious, rich, poor? There are so many factors to start with. Then there is the development of the individual's character from the date of marriage. People evolve, and change.

I would expect if you want well thought out answers, you would need to be far more specific with your line of questioning.

In my experience here, there is definitely a higher chance of the marriage not working if it is interfaith marriage. When the children come along, the problems start. But such is not always the case.

The best marriages seem to be the arranged ones with conditions. The conditions being that the two individuals spend time together with a lot of open discussion on what they believe on a great variety of topics. They also need the right of refusal. This is a mixture of 'arranged' and 'love', keeping the best of both systems, and tossing the worst of both systems.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[RVR]

In the present environment, hardly there are one or two children per family. Parents spend their life time earnings on education and other expenses of the children. When the parents are so affectionate to their children, is it not the duty of the children to give due consideration to parents wishes also.

Now marriages are happening around 25 years only. Both the boy and girl are reaching a highly matured level at this age. Both of them should think about the value system built by both the parents and should not only preserve but further enhance it. Even in arranged marriages, both boy and girl talk to each other through various mediums and there is enough chance to understand each other.

When marriages are settled after lot deliberations from both end, chances of failure is automatically reduced to a great extent. The purpose of any marriage is endurance with peace and prosperity.

Pure love marriages misses lot of above which is not good for the society

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[sapthajihva]

i just want to know
a)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin girl and non brahmin boy
b)what will happen when a love marriage happens between a
brahmin boy and non brahmin girl

What should happen has already happened i.e., the marriage.

which one is accepted and which is rejected please state the reasons please answer it

It is all a combination of variables.

Response in blue above.

 

[sooryanaaraayanah]

Karmanath Dwija Uchayate

First of all, the concept of a brahmin boy or Brahmin girl need to be defined correctly. They are not Brahmin just by birth alone. Anybody can become a brahmin by doing the rites, karmas etc prescribed for them. So the so called Brahmin kids need to be nurtured into a twice born/Dwija. Only then can they be called Brahmin.

Unfortunately the present day so called brahmin parents do not inculcate the right conduct and greatness of our traditions. This has come to a stage where their children are assidiously being wooed by members of others communities. for them, this gives a great sense of conquest and pride in cheating the so called pseudo brahmin boys and girls.

Thus the question of which of the two options for inter caste marriage is inappropriate. The Bhagavat gita is clear in emphasising that GUNA AND KARMA alone will decide the caste of a person and not birth.

 

[vijisesh]

Blame it on the parent !

Dear Shri RV ji !

Although there a few threads already in this subject , i think the reason for this new thread is due to the laziness of a member in going through categories .

I have something to say contradicting to your views ...... I don't intend to hurt the sentiments of our elders but i shall try my best to justify my statements !

Catch me in blue !

Present generation youngsters have to first understand that marriage is not an activity of just two persons. It is integration of not only two immediate families but several other close relative families also. Once the concept of integration of families are understood, then chance of divorce is practically very remote.

During earlier generations, were arranged marriages are the most common practice, there was hardly few separations after the marriage. On the contrary, we see lot of divorces taking place now on a regular basis

Don't we all know within ourselves that 2-3 decades ago , our brahmin community was a male chauvinistic society ! When did our forefathers let the women of their household out in the society , and further it was followed by too many directions to women , insisting that their head should be bowed down -- Then how do we expect them to go to courts asking for divorces - They just would have prayed GOD for the early mokhsha of their spouse ( so that he never returns back again even in her next janma !) .. She just would have settled with the husband for that life and could have in fact lived for their kids ! So that explains the reason for less no. of divorces during yester years !

Our youngsters are getting married only around 25 plus or minus now and at this age they are suppose to display lot of maturity. If both parents agree, then caste or religion or race need not be a bottle neck.

Circumstances change , Priorities change , there have been habitat changes and every one is moving towards a Global neighbourhood !
As i have mentioned earlier , a parent should first be a GOOD FRIEND to his child at every stage of his life ! . GOD owns each and every soul in this world , but we as parents facilitate their upbringing ! If we spend some time listening to them , teaching them to think rationally , do not force our views on them and guide them through their lives , then we shall be HAPPY with whatever decision they make - whether LOVE marriage or ARRANGED !

As they say , the SON / DAUGHTER learns most from their parents - may it be a quarrel or may be obstinacy / arrogancy / Hot temper in the negative side -- and LOVE , PATIENCE , EMPATHY , CARING ATTITUDE and are able to appreciate GOD's BLESSINGS in the positive side , from the parent !

When I was a CHILD i expected some IDEALS from my parents and i know for sure that my CHILD will validate my principles and question my ethics and beliefs - If I am able to handle him , then I will have a WIN-WIN situation may it be LOVE or his ARRANGED marriage !

எண்ணாயிரம் ஆண்டு யோகம் இருப்பினும் கண்ணார் அமுதனை கண்டறிவாரில்லை உள் நாடி ஒளி பெற உள்ளே நோக்கினார் கண்ணாடி போல கலந்து நின்றானே

 

[Nara]

our brahmin community was a male chauvinistic society!

Male chauvinism is an universal phenomenon, not unique to India or Brahmin community. Hindu culture is particularly steeped in male chauvinism. A "righteous" woman's life is defined as one that is subservient to a man's. A woman must dedicate her life to her husband, even if he is a scoundrel. A chaste woman is one who takes it upon herself to gently correct the man. Case in point is the story of Arunagirinathar. If the woman is unable to correct the man it is the woman's fault. Ilango's Kannaki is another example.

Tamil Sanga literature is full of this nonsense. Thiruvalluvar paints the female ideal as characterized by reverence to husband deserved or not. In contrast, the male ideal according to Thiruvalluvar is just remaining faithful to one wife (பிறர் மனை நோக்கா பேராண்மை).

In manimekalai Koolavanikan Satthanaar narrates a story about a Brahmin woman returning alone from the river in chapter 22. The local prince approaches her and asks her to come with him. For this, the poor woman blames herself. She questions her own chastity. A chaste woman should not cause desires in the mind of other men. Here is what she says in the words of Satthanar:

மண்திணி ஞாலத்து மழைவளம் த்ரூஉம்
பெண்டிராயின் பிறர் நெஞ்சு புகாஅர்

-- சிறைசெய் காதை

Note the reference to Thirukkural on the ability of righteous women, for whom there is no God but their own husband, can produce rain on command.

In Chapter 26, Manimekalai visits a shrine for Kannaki and Kovalan in the outskirts of Kanchi and sings the praise of Kannaki. Here, she describes the two choices available to widowed women, (i) sati and (ii) sanyasam. Manimekalai then asks Kannaki why she did not choose either and instead chose to act upon her duty as a righteous (kaRpu) woman and burn the city of Madurai to ground. Here is Manimekalai in the words of Sathanar:

அற்புக்கடன் நில்லாது நற்றவம் படராது,
கற்புக்கடன் பூண்டு நுங்கடன் முடித்தது ...

-- வஞ்சிமாநகர் புக்க காதை

அற்புக்கடன் = Sati
நற்றவம் = Sanyasam

The practice of committing suicide by jumping into the funeral pyre is still not eradicated in India. As late as last year there was an incidence in Chhattisgarh. In UP and Rajastan it is still being practiced, albeit rarely. There may be other ulterior and unfortunate reasons for these women to throw their lives away, but there are people who make them into martyrs. It is unconscionable that the male power structure deifies these women. These are the people who stand in the front lines denouncing violence committed by other religious communities.

 

[drsundaram]

I also do not know why the intercaste marriage is looked down. I personally feel that if both are two good human bings respecting each other's feelings, tastes, concerns etc etc caring the other person and their familes well that is all is required to go ahead and get wedded. In short one has to live for the other. We are so conditioned , opinionated and our minds are so impregnated right from birth by society that we are finding very difficult to come out of ingrained mind sets.
By the by is there any brahmin religious code authentic which says with explanations that brahmins should marry only brahmins.

 

[suvarchas]

First of all, the concept of a brahmin boy or Brahmin girl need to be defined correctly. They are not Brahmin just by birth alone. Anybody can become a brahmin by doing the rites, karmas etc prescribed for them. So the so called Brahmin kids need to be nurtured into a twice born/Dwija. Only then can they be called Brahmin.

Unfortunately the present day so called brahmin parents do not inculcate the right conduct and greatness of our traditions. This has come to a stage where their children are assidiously being wooed by members of others communities. for them, this gives a great sense of conquest and pride in cheating the so called pseudo brahmin boys and girls.

Thus the question of which of the two options for inter caste marriage is inappropriate. The Bhagavat gita is clear in emphasising that GUNA AND KARMA alone will decide the caste of a person and not birth.

I beg to differ sir.Brahmins are defined by Gunas.But Geetha says the Gunas are not be ascertained for every generation.A clear reading says that He created the Varnas based on gunas and never said it is to be decided for every generation.Also there are internal evidences in shastras that Gunas are inherent.For instance when Choula karma for brahmin kids are prescribed to be done at the age of three.How is it possible to decide the guna of a three year old kid?Also many such instances can be seen .Bhagawan also says that shastras are the authority to decide what it is to be done or not.There is no scope for amendment like what Gandhi or others did.

 

[kunjuppu]

I also do not know why the intercaste marriage is looked down. I personally feel that if both are two good human bings respecting each other's feelings, tastes, concerns etc etc caring the other person and their familes well that is all is required to go ahead and get wedded. In short one has to live for the other. We are so conditioned , opinionated and our minds are so impregnated right from birth by society that we are finding very difficult to come out of ingrained mind sets.
By the by is there any brahmin religious code authentic which says with explanations that brahmins should marry only brahmins.

drsdm,

good post. i agree with you 100% and personally feel, that long term viability and good health of hinduism is based on our acceptance and encouragement of inter caste marriages.

increasingly, in the cities, economic status defines a family. for instance people living in a gated urban high rise apartment will have more in common with each other, than their fellow caste-men living in the villages.

i do not only refer to quality of material life here, but also mores, morals and norms. for example, the female teenager in the village might still stick with dhaavaNi, where no one would blink twice, to see her urban cousin don jeans/t-shirts.

i have always wondered about the length to which our indian females have to adjust, after having been brought up by liberal parents, when suddenly at the time of wedding, all this has to be cast away.

not only is she often projected as highly 'moral', well versed in our 'culture' (whatever that means) and above all an upholder of 'tradition'. i think it is not fair.

all these hypocracies are thrown to the wind in the case of love marriage where hopefully the early physical attraction, is replaced by cold headed evaluation of each other's compatibility.

with an option to break the relationship. quite different from what we see in the tamil movies, where the first sight, immediately results in talk of marriage in the next scene.

having said all this, i still think, that it is easier to settle abroad for those indulging in inter caste marriage, for i think, our society can be very intolerant. it is usually the female who bears the brunt of such prejudice, and it is the duty, in such cases, of the male spouse to protect her.

re whether there is any authentic religious code that brahmins should marry only brahmins, our vedic lore is full of stories where this has not happened. also, the vedic brahmins were of a different calibre than today's 'brahmins' in all aspects of spirtuality, character and above all, moral fibre. this is what i think.

thank you.

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri Vijisesh ji

My replies are in Italics.


Don't we all know within ourselves that 2-3 decades ago , our brahmin community was a male chauvinistic society ! When did our forefathers let the women of their household out in the society , and further it was followed by too many directions to women , insisting that their head should be bowed down -- Then how do we expect them to go to courts asking for divorces - They just would have prayed GOD for the early mokhsha of their spouse ( so that he never returns back again even in her next janma !) .. She just would have settled with the husband for that life and could have in fact lived for their kids ! So that explains the reason for less no. of divorces during yester years !

Every society has changed over years. I cannot treat my children the same way my father treated me. I am not treating my wife the same way my father treated my mother.Every body has to adjust to the changing times. In fact my son who is an eligible bachelor told me this morning that managing his `would be' is going to be a big challenge. Still he is waiting for an arranged marriage. There is no guarantee that either arranaged marriage or love marriage will solve these problems. மனைவி அமைவதெல்லாம் இறைவன் கொடுத்த வரம்

Circumstances change , Priorities change , there have been habitat changes and every one is moving towards a Global neighbourhood !
As i have mentioned earlier , a parent should first be a GOOD FRIEND to his child at every stage of his life ! . GOD owns each and every soul in this world , but we as parents facilitate their upbringing ! If we spend some time listening to them , teaching them to think rationally , do not force our views on them and guide them through their lives , then we shall be HAPPY with whatever decision they make - whether LOVE marriage or ARRANGED !

As they say , the SON / DAUGHTER learns most from their parents - may it be a quarrel or may be obstinacy / arrogancy / Hot temper in the negative side -- and LOVE , PATIENCE , EMPATHY , CARING ATTITUDE and are able to appreciate GOD's BLESSINGS in the positive side , from the parent !

When I was a CHILD i expected some IDEALS from my parents and i know for sure that my CHILD will validate my principles and question my ethics and beliefs - If I am able to handle him , then I will have a WIN-WIN situation may it be LOVE or his ARRANGED marriage !

I was listening to my father all along (He expired two years back only). I am listening to my wife and children now. I contradict their views exceptionally . But whenever they know that I am not in agreement with them, they also respect my views & act accordingly. Both my wife and children come to me for my advice whenever they do new things. Unless they ask, I am not interfering. . Sometimes my wife interfere with my children and picks up quarrel.I always tell her not to interfere unless it is warranted. . Neither love marriage or arranged marriage will solve these problems. Basically it is a psychological aspect which every body has to understand

 

[ambes]

In changed circumstances,we having one and two child are not able to go against the wishes of the children in marriage and matter of fact in anything they wish for.
As parents we are only worried about compatibility and failed marriages. When
we see them unhappy we blead.

 

[ramasubramanian]

What is marriage

In a marriage a girl is coming into the the Family of a boy so if a brahmin boy marrys a non-brahmin girl she was to be converted into a brahmin as she accepts the gothra of a brahmin boy and the following generation will be the brahmin under the same gothra of the male. In a marriage between a brahmin girl and Non-brahmin girl she loose her Identity of a seperate family and enters a family which doesnt have a family identity its not there mistake whereas in a brahmin boy and non-brahmin girl marriage she is entering a family which has seperate identity so she has to maintain it by following the culture.

 

[RVR]

Legal position

In a marriage a girl is coming into the the Family of a boy so if a brahmin boy marrys a non-brahmin girl she was to be converted into a brahmin as she accepts the gothra of a brahmin boy and the following generation will be the brahmin under the same gothra of the male. In a marriage between a brahmin girl and Non-brahmin girl she loose her Identity of a seperate family and enters a family which doesnt have a family identity its not there mistake whereas in a brahmin boy and non-brahmin girl marriage she is entering a family which has seperate identity so she has to maintain it by following the culture.

Legally also if a Brahmin boy marries a girl from some other community, the child gets the tag of `Brahmin'. Whereas if a Brahmin girl marries some other community boy, the child inherits the father's caste.

 

[Nara]

In a marriage a girl is coming into the the Family of a boy

[....]

In a marriage between a brahmin girl and Non-brahmin girl she loose her Identity of a seperate family and enters a family which doesnt have a family identity its not there mistake whereas in a brahmin boy and non-brahmin girl marriage she is entering a family which has seperate identity so she has to maintain it by following the culture.

Why do Brahmin families have separate identity, but NB families don't? On what basis are you making this statement? How far back in the family tree from the present do you think the Brahmins can name? Do you think there is a difference between Brahmins and Non-brahmins in this regard? The answer is self-evident.

Gothram, etc. supports tribalism and are used to feel superior to others. Some NB's try to ape these silly Brahmins by saying they belong to Shiva Gothram and Vishnu Gothram, etc.

The sooner the Brahmins abandon this patriarchal and supremacist ideology the better it is for everyone. There is no difference between Brahmins and others. Let us love everyone as equal in essence.

நிதி நெறி நின்று பிறர்க்கு உதவும் நேர்மையர் மேலவர்,
கீழவர் மற்றோர்

Cheers!

 

[vijisesh]

Dear Mr.Nara ......... Life's not always too serious , the outlook that you project in your postings !

Something which has been a tradition , cannot be changed overnight ! and also the question arises , whether the change requested is justified ??

What may be trivial to you may be considered to be very important to some others !

Tribalism - what are you talking about ? By identifying themselves by gothra names have brahmins resorted to the use of veecharuval or any sort of violence ?

Out of the hundred million things that we need to change , let us make an attempt to change what is required for the society rather than concentrating on petty issues !

The relevance of Gothra / separate identity speaks about the family from which the bride or the groom hail ! and only adds value to get a good alliance !

 

[Nara]

Greetings!

Tribalism - what are you talking about ?

By tribalism I mean the divisive ideology of separating oneself from others based on cultural identity. This ideology puts people into groups, in this instance Varnas. Gothra, language, practice, etc. are constructs that are used to promote this tribalism.

Out of the hundred million things that we need to change , let us make an attempt to change what is required for the society rather than concentrating on petty issues !

This is the first time I have seen the Varna/caste issue characterized as petty. The root cause of a large part of the social ills we see can be traced to the ideology that gives rise to the thinking NB families do not have family identity, only Brahmin families do. This, I think, is not a petty issue.

The relevance of Gothra / separate identity speaks about the family from which the bride or the groom hail ! and only adds value to get a good alliance !

I am aware of how Gothra is used. IMHO, it adds absolutely no value "to get a good alliance". The Gothra concept allows marriage between cousins and between uncle and niece. How this is seen to add value is perplexing.

Be that as it may, a dispassionate analysis of the purpose of Gothra, which separates B's from NB's, will show that it is a mechanism that promotes hierarchical tribalism.

Life's not always too serious

I agree! But don't you think energetic debate makes life interesting and enjoyable? Speaking for just myself, I seem to be having the time of my life when discussing issues such as this. I try not to get personal with what I am saying. I think people, in the most part, are decent and good. IMHO, it is these customs, traditions, and religion that mask the innate goodness of people. If I can help at least a few people peel off these masks I think the time is well spent.

Thank you and cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

In a marriage a girl is coming into the the Family of a boy so if a brahmin boy marrys a non-brahmin girl she was to be converted into a brahmin as she accepts the gothra of a brahmin boy and the following generation will be the brahmin under the same gothra of the male. In a marriage between a brahmin girl and Non-brahmin girl she loose her Identity of a seperate family and enters a family which doesnt have a family identity its not there mistake whereas in a brahmin boy and non-brahmin girl marriage she is entering a family which has seperate identity so she has to maintain it by following the culture.

ram,

two flaws in your note as i see it:

- first it discounts NBs as having non identity. non lineage. non heritage. how more arrogant can we get? it is precisely this attitude that has put us in the margins of tamildom.

the fanatic belief in gothra is scientfically proved as bunkum. how can one marry mama poNN or athai magan, and with a 50% sharing of genes be acceptable, whereas someone with the same gothram, but unknown or absent relationship considered incest?

sir, sometimes, we have to overcome the hand-me-down values that we follow blindly, thus disproving, that inspite of our BTechs, Phds, MDs, we as a community overall, are only ஏட்டு சுரக்காய் in the bottom line.

i am very disappointed in your post

- the second more serious objection is that the present trend is to have one or two children, and in many cases these are only daughters. how can you ever think, that the daughters are inferior in their losing their identity when they marry out of caste.

to give you an example, i have a good friend, a sindhi, married an iyengar girl eons ago. who was once a happy go lucky beer swinging lad, turned to a perumal bhakthan with no alcohol or such in his household.

my friend was converted to iyengar and he is proud of it. not sure if he adopted her gothram, but gothram is a meaningless entity, in my opinion, of irrelevance today.

so dear friend, do not discount the power of our women, and remove those cataracts of prejudices from your mind eye.

thank you.

 

[RVR]

According to history, Saint Thirugnana Sambandar (7th century BC)gave life to the ashes of a Chettiar girl in Mylapore. Girls parents requested him to marry her. He refused saying that since he has given life to her, she is as good as his daughter. Sambandhar is considered as a TB. He didn't refuse because the girl didn't belong to his caste.

Saint Sundaramurthi Nayanar(9th Century BC) married two girls, Paravai Nachiar at Tiruvarur and Sangili Nachiyar at Tiruvotriur. Lord Shiva blessed both the marriages. Both the girls were not belonging to TB community whereas Sundarar is considered as Saiva Andhanar again a TB.

It means intercaste marriages were prevalent during 7th and 9th centuries BC involving TB.

I just want to know one thing. If a NB girl is adopted by a TB couple, then is she not considered as a TB girl after adoption. vice versa may also be considered similarly. I request scholars in our community in this forum to clarify my point

 

[KRS]

Folks,

'Chandalas' were defined in our Smrithis as those children who were born because of the 'illegitimate' unions between a higher caste women and lower caste men.

It should be noted that the children out of the unions between a Brahmin man and a woman of the other three varnas, and between a Kshatriya and a woman from either Vaishya or a Sudhra, and between a Vaisya man and a Sudra woman were held to be legally okay and perfect.

Sri Venkataramani Ji, I suppose, in your eaxample, the girl would be considered a brahmin, growing up. But, please betroth her to a Brahmin guy. Otherwise, she would be considered a 'Chandala'..

I don't know when we will step out of these (pardon my language) weird notions that
are keeping the progress of India back (sorry Sri Venkataramani Ji, I do not mean you).

Regards,
KRS