Theory of Karma

[sravna]

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namaste Sravna.

This is with reference to your post #126.

• As far as I know, except for the Self that remains as the substratum as consciousness, all the other tattvas (whether they are 24 or 36) are material manifestations of consciousness, so all the components of the mind mahat, buddhi, chitta and manas are material. The question is how far are they are of physical matter and from what level they are of subtler matter.

• According to science, specially the microlepton hypothesis I posted, everything including the individual soul are material manifestations.

• According to the Hindu philosophy, while the pancha bhUtas--five elements, of the prapancha--unierse, are material, they are manifestations in gross matter of their subtler counterparts, the five tanmAtras--sound, touch, form, taste and smell.

For an individual jIva, the ten indriyas--organs of perception and knowledge, are of gross material, which act as channels to the antaHkaraNa--inner organ, viz. ahaMkAra, buddhi, chitta, and manas, which are manifestations of the consciousness in subtle matter, as individually limited parts of their universal counterparts.

• Thus, a thought is not 'non-material', but material. The contention is that neuro science says this material is biological, quantum physics says that it is a cluster of subatomic particles, while the Hindu philosophy says that as the entire antaHkaraNa is of subtle matter, its products to should be such.

• In one sense, thought might be viewed as energy or force that does not create any new matter--subtle or gross--but only shapes up the surrounding matter into a form or pattern. Concrete thoughts do this more than abstract thoughts.

• The information that the thought carries is thus frozen into the shape or pattern in subtle matter. Information has no meaning until it is interpreted, and this is where the brain takes over, IMO. This is like information stored in the computer hard disk in the form of magnetic patterns for later interpretation by the software that deals with it.

• For example, if I think of a horse, an image of the horse is actually formed in the subtle matter on the mental plane and it hovers in my mental body. When I refresh that image by strengthening the thought, I can make 'color' the horse or 'animate' it and see its action in the mind's eye, with corresponding ramifications in the brain's neural network and in the subatomic physical matter surrounding it.

• If I think about a friend of mine who is, let us say unwell, and wish that he gets well soon, this wish as a thoughtform is trasmitted through the subtle planes and attaches itself to the mental body of the receiver with a healing effect. How does the thoughtform know about its destination? Perhaps in a similar way the bits of information transmitted through the Internet know the address of their destination computer. Probably, this is where the my and my friend's sUtrAtmas come into play. The speed of such transmission is faster than light, so it is instant, which is why the old Sanskrit adage vAyu vegam, mano vegam--quick as the air, quick as the mind.

Dear Shri Saidevo,

There is a problem in categorizing thoughts as material. Both of us agree that it travels instantly. Or in other words it exists in whole of space once it is created. If it is a particle that is not possible. Besides even in an aesthetic sense, thoughts being mental energy can be said to transcend the physical space. In other words once produced in space it is everywhere in space and hence rightly is non material..

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

sad to read about the hydrocephalic child and the thought that many have that 1st trimester abortion could have solved the matter if detected earlier.
you know out here in Malaysia I have seen malay muslim parents that do not abort such children becos they feel that they have no right to take a life of a child and its God's will that they are given such a child to look after.
Many take care of such children till the childs last breath but the many temple going Hindus just opt for abortion if such cases arise.

The child might not exists physically if abortion is done but none of us know the actual life span of the child and what he/she endures in the astral plane.
Every child normal or not has a right to live and should never be considered a mere statistic in hospital records.

Smt. Renuka,

According to my belief, there is some power which is beyond Man's capacity to understand, analyze and even experience (which I call as the power which causes the phenomenon called Life). Though individuals are free to use their discretion and act according to their wishes (the freewill) there is some control or limitation on the freewill of each individual and man cannot go beyond that or achieve what another person may be able to do or achieve due to his freewill.

viewed in this light, the babies who are aborted are probably, destined for it whereas those babies who are brought up are destined so. This may look like absolute fatalism, but I think there is a difference. And the difference is the admission of freewill with a limitation on it.

I think the best illustration about fate and freewill is this story (I do not know the author.) Cattle are often tied to a post with a long rope and left to graze around. the knot on the post (or tree trunk) will usually be loose so that the animal can move around the entire circular area around the post with the rope-length as radius. Usually the cow (animal) will stretch its neck and graze even a foot or two beyond but further beyond, it just cannot go. Sometimes the knot around the post gets "stuck" and then with every round the animal makes, the rope winds on the post/tree trunk and the area for grazing goes on reducing till finally, the animal just cannot even move. The freewill allowed to us is like the length of the rope. Some of us have a "long rope", while others may have shorter ones.

Some parents may have the freewill to abort the defective baby while others are not given that freedom and are held back by religious beliefs or even by circumstances beyond their best control, as in the case of my niece.

 

[Yamaka]

i'm glad to see such a wonderful question from you. you opened up an interesting topic.

according to you, and your views, the purpose in life is noting but a fate, that parents wanted to have children and you are here born in this world, left to fend for yourself , make a predatory survival in this world of fittest, have the comforts, conquer others and die one day just like any other animal in the jungle.

but there is another view, which is also scientific (science also has set of rules) / philosophic, which adds some purpose & meaning to our life on this earth. pls give it a ear, and see if its wrong. to make our discussion go in a level playing field, i'm not going to take god-head here.


every religion gives a purpose to life, life after death and the guidance for living. it may be good or bad, but there is a guidance or rule. its the same thing with civil laws, which gives a guidance , though it dont say anything beyond death.

it may be right or wrong, but some guidance is necessity in all parts of life. even one don't believe in purpose in life, is still, compelled to take shelter under a purpose and rule, set by the society through civil laws.

so rules/ purpose is all a part and parcel of every life, and religions gives that with some divine ( lets say,imaginary) authority , where as, you want yourself to be in the side, that there is no real purpose to life, and life is all an accident happened during mating.

isnt it a better thing, to have some guidance and purpose in life, than having nothing, just like what we see in jungles!

hope you agree with this, that, something is better than nothing indeed!.

If religions and their purpose(s) lead to "peaceful coexistence" I don't have any objection... but in reality as I wrote earlier, they by their very nature bring in conflicts and mayhem.... recall what happens in India between the Hindu majority and Muslims... between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland... between Muslims and Jews in Palestine..

Again, to go little deeper, I thought the idea of Poorva Janma Karma envisions REBIRTH to take care of the Karmic Consequences of the earlier birth, which I contend is IMPOSSIBLE, as rebirth is impossible in my world of thinking.

On Guidance in Life:

Yes, as Homo sapiens, we need lot of "hand holding or guidance" when we are young (up until say age 18-21), which we get it from our parents, teachers, seniors etc... then we all become full adults and lead our lives according to "our whims and fancies" - you don't need to have a "predatory survival" mode.. You can acquire skills, earn a good living in an open labor market, and lead a "JUST meaningful life" sharing your wealth and wisdom with others in your community - I call this a wholesome life - as I try hard everyday to achieve!

My view is to lead a wholesome life you don't NEED a God, Religion and Janma Poorva Karma theory!

Peace.

 

[Yamaka]

I agree with "your" individual view of the world.

Since you are contented with your materialistic life with all success and occumulation, keeping your humanist and naturalist qualities, may I suggest you to get into spirituality in true sense, experience the difference and enjoy its charm? You may succeed to know, understand, realize and accept that you could achieve a better view of the Nature/Word. You may able to understand and grasp the Supreme Energies of the nature/spirituality.

Your wife and other Theists surrounding you may help you in your efforts towards spirituality.

Since all your life till today you were never been into spiritiual belief and spirituality, giving true spirituality a try is no harm and would not cost you. At last during the old age you can make an attempt to experience spirituality and get to see what is that and how far you can reach towards understanding and accepting Karma theory.

The above is just my sincere and friendly suggestion. Hope you will not mistake me other than asking me not to attempt to brain wash you, that is fine with me to be warned.

Dear Ravi:

As I wrote earlier, my wife is an Agno-Theist.. she has lots of doubts about her Theism.. she clings on to it either because of TRADITION and/or FEAR of the unknown and/or Superstition... she does not know exactly what!!

This is what she tells me often, "Y... I know you for the past 35 long years.. as your wife for the past 32 years... I love everything in you... you be just what you have been... DO NOT CHANGE a bit... what I admire most is your CLARITY and FEARLESS attitude on everything, including God, Religion, Old age etc etc."

So I meander through everyday in my own world!

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Y,

Things are not so well-defined in this world. There are many parents who long for a child but do not get one, now such people take the help of fertility clinics and, despite, all the best and up todate tests done on the fertilized embryo which is transplanted, the child born has some birth defect. The same couple get a perfectly natural (born out of intercourse) next time.

My niece delivered a boy (first delivery) with "water in the brain" (I forget the medical term). Though the pregnancy was monitored in one of the hospitals of good standing in Chennai, this deformation became detectable only in the ultrasound scan days before delivery and never during the first trimester when abortion could have been done. My niece's husband being a young and fighting type of man, complained and then the earlier ultrasounds were examined by his own relative gynaecologist (as a special case) and she also said there was no lapse or negligence on the part of the hospital people. How do we explain this? Natural mistake?

The boy, now 8 years and overweight has still to be nursed like a small baby of 6 months or so. Because a shunt was implanted when the baby was just 2 weeks old, it has not been necessary to go periodically for sucking out the fluid periodically.

Sangom Sir:

I feel very sad that such thing happened to your niece' son..

I fully agree with you "Things are not so well-defined in this world"..

Accidents do happen, and "Murphy's Law" is always right... How do I reconcile with them?

I tell myself, "In spite of all the knowledge and excellent planning, sometimes, things will go wrong... get ready with your Plan B and Plan C".

My point has been "Law of Randomness will in play whether or not you believe in God, Religion and Theory of Janma Poorva Karma!"

Regards.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Yamaka,

Your post #153, #154 & #155 are very clear as its been posted in response to specific clarifications/suggestions been sought from you.

So in Nut Shall, your conclusion is, you just want to be constructive to what is clear before you as controllable/adjustable/choosable/preparable and that is with ramdomness AND you just want to ignore anything else that is not crystal clearly visible / provable to you in Black & White, leading to many a destruction?. Correct me if I am wrong.

Do you think that just because humans are going crazy, violent, extremely selfish, croocked and manupulative -

One has to live a wholesome life and for that one need not to have God, Religion and Poorva Janma Karma-As you have concluded in your post #153 addressing to Shiv.

- Can you clearly identify as how one need to live a wholesome life to his/her fullest satisfaction?

- Do you believe that it doesn't matter how you amass wealth as long as you give it back to the society in charity?

- Do you believe that the wholesome life can be achieved by any one leading a righteous life with professional ethics clubbed with social
responsibilites, being into legal business/work?

- Do you believe that if a person coudn't achieve his wholesome life it means he/she is dumb? He/she did not or could not learn the right skills? His or her genes have taken a wrong decision to manifest in the womb of a poor or dumb mother having a poor / dumb husband, due to lack of Genes intelligence? When the qualiities of genes of the offsprings are based on the quality of the Genes of parent's and parents generation to some extent atleast, do you think that the world/nature that you visualize is doing injustice to those offsprings?



You say that your wife loves you for what you are and would prefer you to be clear and confident being not believing in God and poorva janma karma, unlike herself. - In your post #154, addressing to me

- That is perfectly OK, as long as you are a good husband, a good father and a humanist. As well a intelligent person with clarity of mind and confidence. As well, as long as you don't restrict your wife from what she wants to do in the name of God and spirituality to her satisfaction as per her belief (though not sure of such things, as many are), you are truly a true human that natures wants.

If you think that all of your positivities are not due to poorva janma kama and that in fact is not the truth, as you have build up yourself from the scratch, having undergone lots of ordeals, struggles etc..etc, do you think that you could succeed only because there was nothing uncontrollable and unpleasant mishap took place in your living activities just due to your intelligence and random phenomina, favourably?. A good friend, a helping person; a good, loving and understanding wife and children ect. that you got in your life are all just due random process in favour?



"Law of Randomness will play whether or not you believe in God, Religion and Teory of Porva Janma Karma" - as per your concluding statement in your post #155, addressing to Shri Sangom.

-You are clearly figuring out and suggesting that "let us live a life as true human, irrespective of existence of God and Porva Janma Karma. So do you believe that, every other human if wish to be a true human can be so? And if they tend to be unsuccessful in a due many internal and external uncontrolable reasons, if they be into wrong ways and means to live a wholesome life, if they tend to be violent and aggresive and If they fail to live a righteous life but could untimately live confortably,keeping heir family happy, till their death (without being subjected to human judical systems), than they will be considered just being under the influence of Ramdom phenomina playing against/in favor of them just as a game of Randomness during their life span and would not be subjected to reasonable punishment for their wrong doing ever by any other ways?


In all are you saying that we all are just like machines (with standard programs inbuild) that are not subjected to reasonbale punishment and reward for its mal functions and perfect operations respectively?

 

[prasad1]

From Hindu Karma: Beliefs on Karma in Hinduism - ReligionFacts.

The Sanskrit word karma means "actions" or "deeds." As a religious term, karma refers to intentional (usually moral) actions that affect one's fortunes in this life and the next. Karma (or kamma in Pali) is a concept common to Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, but interpreted in different ways. This article focuses specifically on Hindu beliefs about karma.
The concept of karma or "law of karma" is the broader principle that all of life is governed by a system of cause and effect, action and reaction, in which one's deeds have corresponding effects on the future. Karma is thus a way of explaining evil and misfortune in the world, even for those who do not appear to deserve it - their misfortune must be due to wrong actions in their previous life.
In Hindu texts, the word karma first appears in the ancient Rig Veda, but there it simply means religious action and animal sacrifice. There is some hint of the later meaning of karma in the Brahmanas, but it is not until theUpanishads that karma is expressed as a principle of cause and effect based on actions. One example is inBrhadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5.
Karma is regarded as a fundamental law of nature that is automatic and mechanical. It is not something that is imposed by God or a god as a system of punishment or reward, nor something that the gods can interfere with.
The word karma refers primarily to "bad karma" - that which is accumulated as a result of wrong actions. Bad karma binds a person's soul (atman) to the cycle of rebirth (samsara) and leads to misfortune in this life and poor conditions in the next. The moral energy of a particular moral act bears fruit automatically in the next life, manifested in one's class, disposition, and character.
Hindu texts also prescribe a number of activities, such as pilgrimages to holy places and acts of devotion, that can wipe out the effects of bad karma. Such positive actions are sometimes referred to as "good karma." Some versions of the theory of karma also say that morally good acts have positive consequences (as opposed to simply neutral).
In Vedanta and Yoga teachings, there are three types of karma:

1. Prarabdha karma - karma experienced during the present lifetime
2. Sancita karma - the store of karma that has not yet reached fruition
3. Agamin or sanciyama karma - karma sown in the present life that will come to fruition in a future life

The process by which karma is understood to work through various rebirths is as follows:

1. Good or bad actions create impressions (samskaras) or tendencies (vasanas) in the mind, which in time will come to fruition in further action (more karma).
2. The seeds of karma are carried in the subtle body (linga), in which the soul transmigrates.
3. The physical body (sthula sarira) is the field in which the fruit of karma is experienced and more karma is created.

The purpose of life in Hinduism is thus to minimize bad karma in order to enjoy better fortune in this life and achieve a better rebirth in the next. The ultimate spiritual goal is to achieve release (moksha) from the cycle of samsara altogether. It may take hundreds or thousands of rebirths to get rid of all of one's accumulated karma and achieve moksha. The person who has become liberated (attained moksha) creates no more new karma during the present lifetime and is not reborn after death.
Various methods to attain moksha are taught by different schools, but most include avoiding attachment to impermanent things, carrying out one's duties, and realizing the ultimate unity between one's soul or self (atman) and ultimate reality (Brahman).

There are two distinct reason for accepting this theory.
1. You are responsible for your actions and its results. You can not blame it on 'GOD' or any one else. You can not lament what has befallen you either. God is not responsible to give you boon or favors and at the same time He does not have to curse you out.

2. The karma theory also follows rebirth. The reason for disparity among all species is also gets an explanation. A child is born in a rich family and another one is born on street in abject poverty. Without prarabdha Karma why this disparity?



check this site
http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/karma.htm

http://hinduwebsite.com/conceptofkarma.asp

 

[prasad1]

Action itself cannot be termed good or bad. It is the intention behind the action that produces good and bad karma.

A soldier in the field of battle killing an enemy to save his country has to be good karma, but the same person killing his neighbor to get his land is bad karma.

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

Your post #153, #154 & #155 are very clear as its been posted in response to specific clarifications/suggestions been sought from you.

So in Nut Shall, your conclusion is, you just want to be constructive to what is clear before you as controllable/adjustable/choosable/preparable and that is with ramdomness AND you just want to ignore anything else that is not crystal clearly visible / provable to you in Black & White, leading to many a destruction?. Correct me if I am wrong.

Do you think that just because humans are going crazy, violent, extremely selfish, croocked and manupulative -

One has to live a wholesome life and for that one need not to have God, Religion and Poorva Janma Karma-As you have concluded in your post #153 addressing to Shiv.

- Can you clearly identify as how one need to live a wholesome life to his/her fullest satisfaction?

- Do you believe that it doesn't matter how you amass wealth as long as you give it back to the society in charity?

- Do you believe that the wholesome life can be achieved by any one leading a righteous life with professional ethics clubbed with social
responsibilites, being into legal business/work?

- Do you believe that if a person coudn't achieve his wholesome life it means he/she is dumb? He/she did not or could not learn the right skills? His or her genes have taken a wrong decision to manifest in the womb of a poor or dumb mother having a poor / dumb husband, due to lack of Genes intelligence? When the qualiities of genes of the offsprings are based on the quality of the Genes of parent's and parents generation to some extent atleast, do you think that the world/nature that you visualize is doing injustice to those offsprings?



You say that your wife loves you for what you are and would prefer you to be clear and confident being not believing in God and poorva janma karma, unlike herself. - In your post #154, addressing to me

- That is perfectly OK, as long as you are a good husband, a good father and a humanist. As well a intelligent person with clarity of mind and confidence. As well, as long as you don't restrict your wife from what she wants to do in the name of God and spirituality to her satisfaction as per her belief (though not sure of such things, as many are), you are truly a true human that natures wants.

If you think that all of your positivities are not due to poorva janma kama and that in fact is not the truth, as you have build up yourself from the scratch, having undergone lots of ordeals, struggles etc..etc, do you think that you could succeed only because there was nothing uncontrollable and unpleasant mishap took place in your living activities just due to your intelligence and random phenomina, favourably?. A good friend, a helping person; a good, loving and understanding wife and children ect. that you got in your life are all just due random process in favour?



"Law of Randomness will play whether or not you believe in God, Religion and Teory of Porva Janma Karma" - as per your concluding statement in your post #155, addressing to Shri Sangom.

-You are clearly figuring out and suggesting that "let us live a life as true human, irrespective of existence of God and Porva Janma Karma. So do you believe that, every other human if wish to be a true human can be so? And if they tend to be unsuccessful in a due many internal and external uncontrolable reasons, if they be into wrong ways and means to live a wholesome life, if they tend to be violent and aggresive and If they fail to live a righteous life but could untimately live confortably,keeping heir family happy, till their death (without being subjected to human judical systems), than they will be considered just being under the influence of Ramdom phenomina playing against/in favor of them just as a game of Randomness during their life span and would not be subjected to reasonable punishment for their wrong doing ever by any other ways?


In all are you saying that we all are just like machines (with standard programs inbuild) that are not subjected to reasonbale punishment and reward for its mal functions and perfect operations respectively?

1. - Can you clearly identify as how one need to live a wholesome life to his/her fullest satisfaction?

My "wholesome life" is simple - Be a hard working Scientist (working harder than anybody around me), excellent husband, father, good neighbor lending a helping hand if someone needs me... etc. etc. and be socially conscious.. my political philosophy is more towards a progressive side than the conservative side. In Crime & Punishment, I cry for the victims, and am hard on villains... on certain heinous crimes I support Death Penalty, after a thorough judicial review. When an "innocent person" is punished, I get very upset and angry.

For me, the Social, Political and Economic Freedoms are very important more than being a millionaire or billionaire... after a point, for me, money is NOTHING...

What guides me through on a daily basis?

I simply ask "What do I expect from others around me?" The answer I get is "Be nice and reasonable to me, and follow the law of the land".

That's exactly what I follow: Be nice and reasonable to OTHERS and follow the law of the land.

2. Whatever I have in my life is BECAUSE of our (here I include my family) hard work, good planning, sacrifice and some LUCK (which is being at the right place at the right time, which happens to everyone).

No, Janma Poorva Karma has no place in my life.

But I believe the Karma as something of an ACTION or decision that my family made, and as a consequence the RESULT is here in this life time! I must love or hate this RESULT in this life time!! That's all.

3. In all are you saying that we all are just like machines (with standard programs inbuild) that are not subjected to reasonbale punishment and reward for its mal functions and perfect operations respectively?

I am not saying we are machines - we are human beings with all sorts of feelings, emotions...pity, piety, anger, bigotry etc etc...

What all I am saying is, depending on the decisions you and your family have made, RESULTS (or the consequences) would occur.. accept it and move on... all happens in this one life... precious life time.

No Rebirth.. No Poorva Jarma Karma for me.

That's all.

4. I never ever interfered with the religious or spiritual life of my wife or children... I strongly believe they have their own Civil Rights...

They are free to believe in any God or Religion that makes sense to THEM...My children were raised in a Secular environment... We did not give any particular religious lessons to kids growing up... But, once they reached 18, we said "You are free to follow or NOT follow any religion or God".

You may say, "Well Y..., how could you expect your kids to be religious if you have not taught them any?"

That's the point in all this... our parents force fed us "Their religion and Gods" and the whole things took the turn of "A person is Hindu because his father is Hindu or she is X because his parents are X".

This I did not want to do... that was our (my wife's and mine) considered decision to raise our kids in a Secular Household...

But, my kids were taught the difference between Hinduism, Islam, Christianity etc etc... as a matter of history and human development...

Now, as adults, my kids appreciate very much that we did not force feed them any ideas of OUR Religion and Gods... and are given their own CHOICE...

We are very happy about it...

Cheers.

ps. I strongly believe Religions and Gods by their very nature CREATE conflicts and chaos.. Why do you want it?

 

[prasad1]

Sanatan Dharma is not a group religion. It is an individual religion. It is like supermarket, you choose the ideas you want and live your life accordingly. You can not force others your way. It assumes that we are all intelligent being and decide for ourselves.

Some practices have crept into religion from social customs. We have to be smart enough to understand it. Social practices are time and place bound, and can change. It is customs that can be outdated or illegal. Philosophy does not become outdated.

 

[ShivKC]

If religions and their purpose(s) lead to "peaceful coexistence" I don't have any objection...
On Guidance in Life:

Yes, as Homo sapiens, we need lot of "hand holding or guidance" when we are young (up until say age 18-21), which we get it from our parents, teachers, seniors etc...

Peace.

Yam, i am not denying religion also had some role in killing,but not that great compared to rest. if killing in the name of religion bothers you, here is another part, atheists/commies had done worst, in the recent past.

the problem here his not religion. its the ideology and human nature of expecting others to follow it. some one said, future wars will not be fought to have a hold on land/tax/sea/spices, but will be on just 'ideologies'.

atheists, who don't believe in religion, do also hold another ideology 'which denies god'. the killings done on russian cold war, lenin regime, mein kampf, red china were not for religion. as i said, these killing are done on ideologies, and any time it would happen,and that because of the nature of human race.

Yam, i bet, I would switch my side towards you, if you prove me quantitatively, that , in the history of our world,killing in the name of religion exceeded the rest.


coming to the second part, of self guidance, i think we had discussed quite a lot before.

guidance of teachers, parents etc, but who holds the right authority, rather i call it as a central authority for all these guidance. science also searches similar things like, what controls the universe? what is the center of universe? this is a natural human quest, and that physical part of quest lead to science and philosophical part lead to religion & god .

Yam, you know what, i was once so impressed by your post 5 months ago, where you suggested spend 4 hours a day of teaching with your children daily, you will see them high. you know, i referred your post to my wife, who has two children of 5 yrs and another 14months. she was impressed, and she started following now (me too) spending now 2 Hrs a day at least..you are a teacher here. but, tomorrow, what if my children rebuts/refutes and say, dad, i need only 10 minutes to study and i can make it good. what if my children say (15yrs later), can do a drunken speedy drive, mow down few, but escapes the cops&law and claim that its their talent and smartness! like wise as a parent we end up with lot of confusions and dilemmas in handing over the children's guidance even to the teacher (or) letting them to fend for themselves, for the meek wont survive!..

here religious divine authority seems to be more convincing and appealing. do you remember our moms force feeding us by scaring with that imaginary பூச்சாண்டி ..for you god is a பூச்சாண்டி , but for, he helped to force feed my child..

i can switch sides, if you convince me on this. also dont forget, to present your pending point on 'justice for acts of debaunchery.

PS: thanks Yamaka, my wife started taking seriously your advice (4hrs a day teaching kids), and i was also impressed by that.

 

[saidevo]

namaste Nara and Yamaka.

I said in post #68:
01. I shall try to find time to read Dawkins' book. A cursory search for 'grandfather' in the book gives me the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that sharing the ancestor genes is from the paternal side, and no sharing from maternal grandfather who produced the mother of the child. If this is true, it would seem that Nature's selection in the family tree is partial like the manu smRti!

to which Nara replied in post #82:
This is not true, and would be absurd as both father and mother contribute chromosomes to the foetus.

Now, after reading this article*, I understand that my impression above holds good in the case of the so-called 'sex chromosome', which comprises a female X and a male Y chromosome, and determines the sex of the oncoming child. Thus, if the embroyo has XX, it will develop into a female child, and in the case of XY, a male child.

• Now, this Y chromosome that determines the sex of the child is always inherited from the paternal side. That is, a son inhereits his X chromosome from his mother and Y from his father. Of the XX pair in a daughter, a daughter inhereits one X from the father and the other from the mother, the mother having inherited her XX from both of her parents.

• Thus, it is the Y chromosome that is associated with a family-tree and determines the lineage of ancestors. This means that a maternal grandfather cannot pass his Y chromosome to his grandson for two reasons: one, he can pass it only to his own sons, not daughter; two, his maternal grandson's Y chromosome is inherited from the child's paternal side.

*As to the possibilities, possible repercussions and vindications this importance of the male child brings up, and the dominance of the feminine attribute in Nature (because of the XX combination), check this article:
Science of Genetics behind the Hindu Gotra System – The Y Chromosome and the Male Lineage | HitXP by Gurudev

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Saidevo,

There is no prob in saying man inherits his Y from his father's side. However connecting genetics to gotras, and claiming that some people have inherited genes of some rishis in a failsafe system since ages is patently false. I wud be willing to engage the blogger whose hyperlink you have posted for a discussion on this forum.

Thanks.

 

[prasad1]

According to genealogist we all have a common ancestor in a women in Africa.
http://ncse.com/evolution/science/evolution-origin-races]Error[/URL]

 

[Nara]

....
• Thus, it is the Y chromosome that is associated with a family-tree and determines the lineage of ancestors. This means that a maternal grandfather cannot pass his Y chromosome to his grandson for two reasons: one, he can pass it only to his own sons, not daughter; two, his maternal grandson's Y chromosome is inherited from the child's paternal side.

Saidevo, you are presenting a partial picture to suit your POV. Do you know that scientists have been able to trace all of humanity to a single African mother? This is because we have what is called mitochondrial DNA that can be inherited only from mothers. So, one can just as easily argue that only mothers can determine lineage.

But the fact is, we inherit different things from each parent. We owe our lineage to both parents, not just the mother or just the father.

For more on mtDNA click here.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste smt.HH.

Wrt your post #163, I am not well-versed to engage you in a discussion about the gotras, nor do I have the time to read into it. So, I suggest you take up the Blogger directly on his Website, so it could be beneficial to a much wider range of readers.

Nara,
Whatever science discovers, my point was that the practice world over of family trees being traced exclusively on the paternal side has some scientific background and not just a foolish religious belief.

On a lighter vein--and this is not to find fault with science--who knows, tomorrow science might say that dinosaurs were our ancestor parents!

 

[sarang]

we will wait till a more evolved soul/scientist comes out with another revolutionary theory. It really does not matter since our ancients have already separated the physical body from the eternal soul.

According to genealogist we all have a common ancestor in a women in Africa.
http://ncse.com/evolution/science/evolution-origin-races]Error[/URL]

 

[saidevo]

namaste Yamaka.

In post #92, I asked you to highlight any precise definitions that science might have about Nature and Universe.

You came up with this personal opinion in post #95:
By Nature or Universe, I mean everything I have "in me and around me" - including all the living beings AND abiotic materials all of which obey the laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology/medicine, astronomy etc etc., including the Sun, Moon and the milky way....including all that present before my time....

I notice from your post #130 that you are unable to place the role of Freewill as you do not believe in the transcendental karma theory and leave it--not to fate but--Nature. You said further,

My considered view is Nature.... and what I have learned over million years thru Biological Evolution...

• How do you know that you have learned over million years? Does this mean, you as your own special genetical setup was existing all through these million years? If this is so, it would mean reincarnation of the scientific self! If this is no, in what way are you sure about the evolution of your own genetic self through Nature? Is it not just a belief--which is no different from the belief of your opposite camp?

• Another question. If Nature is the Cause of all forms and actions in the universe, would you admit that Nature has a universal consciousness of her own? Or everything is just random play? At least in the case of sentient beings you might say that they are what they are today by a long porcess of trial-and-error evolution. How did the insentient matter and energy originate and evolve from Nature into what they are today? Considering the better order that prevails in the insentient world of Nature, than in the sentient world, how could this insentient world have come about: by random play or by an orderly thinking of a universal consciousness?

In any case it seems that you need to be certain about Nature having or not having a universal consciousness. In Hindu Dharma, Nature as prakRti is jaDa--insentient; she is activated by the puruSha when he unites with her as consciousness.

 

[Nara]

Nara,
Whatever science discovers, my point was that the practice world over of family trees being traced exclusively on the paternal side has some scientific background and not just a foolish religious belief.

Saidevo, this is what is called retrofitting, or finding shapes in random cloud.

If those who devised patrilineal lineage had X and Y chromosome in mind, how come they just ignored mtDNA? The answer is a simple one, men the world over were physically strong and were able to dominate. That is why family trees are traced exclusively through the fathers -- whether this is foolish religious belief or not, I will refrain from saying, but definitely not based on science. With more emancipation and gender equality this practice is slowly changing.

BTW, you are once again citing science to say religious belief is not foolish, I am surprised you hold science in such high esteem

On a lighter vein--and this is not to find fault with science--who knows, tomorrow science might save that dinosaurs were our ancestor parents!

In as much as we all evolved from single-cell organisms billions of years ago, we are certainly related to dinosaurs. If they are not on the direct path through our ancestry, they for sure have parents in common with us.

best regards ...

 

[prasad1]

we will wait till a more evolved soul/scientist comes out with another revolutionary theory. It really does not matter since our ancients have already separated the physical body from the eternal soul.

If you have the time (depending geologicale time, astronomical time, or Brahma's time), then things will change. But you have to live with what a raltional person will know.

 

[prasad1]

Saidevo, this is what is called retrofitting, or finding shapes in random cloud.

If those who devised patrilineal lineage had X and Y chromosome in mind, how come they just ignored mtDNA? The answer is a simple one, men the world over were physically strong and were able to dominate. That is why family trees are traced exclusively through the fathers -- whether this is foolish religious belief or not, I will refrain from saying, but definitely not based on science. With more emancipation and gender equality this practice is slowly changing.

BTW, you are once again citing science to say religious belief is not foolish, I am surprised you hold science in such high esteem

In as much as we all evolved from single-cell organisms billions of years ago, we are certainly related to dinosaurs. If they are not on the direct path through our ancestry, they for sure have parents in common with us.

best regards ...

Good post. How do you get that smiley face? I am given very limited choice in my :help: menu bar.

 

[Nara]

Good post. How do you get that smiley face? I am given very limited choice in my menu bar.

Hi, you need to type a colon ":" and right-parenthesis ")" -- without a space in between or the quotation marks -- this will render as the smiley face you see . There are a couple of more,

";" and ")" = , wicked smile
":" and "(" = , a frown

Let me caution you, overuse is often seen as irritating, use sparingly.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Yam, i am not denying religion also had some role in killing,but not that great compared to rest. if killing in the name of religion bothers you, here is another part, atheists/commies had done worst, in the recent past.

the problem here his not religion. its the ideology and human nature of expecting others to follow it. some one said, future wars will not be fought to have a hold on land/tax/sea/spices, but will be on just 'ideologies'.

atheists, who don't believe in religion, do also hold another ideology 'which denies god'. the killings done on russian cold war, lenin regime, mein kampf, red china were not for religion. as i said, these killing are done on ideologies, and any time it would happen,and that because of the nature of human race.

Yam, i bet, I would switch my side towards you, if you prove me quantitatively, that , in the history of our world,killing in the name of religion exceeded the rest.


coming to the second part, of self guidance, i think we had discussed quite a lot before.

guidance of teachers, parents etc, but who holds the right authority, rather i call it as a central authority for all these guidance. science also searches similar things like, what controls the universe? what is the center of universe? this is a natural human quest, and that physical part of quest lead to science and philosophical part lead to religion & god .

Yam, you know what, i was once so impressed by your post 5 months ago, where you suggested spend 4 hours a day of teaching with your children daily, you will see them high. you know, i referred your post to my wife, who has two children of 5 yrs and another 14months. she was impressed, and she started following now (me too) spending now 2 Hrs a day at least..you are a teacher here. but, tomorrow, what if my children rebuts/refutes and say, dad, i need only 10 minutes to study and i can make it good. what if my children say (15yrs later), can do a drunken speedy drive, mow down few, but escapes the cops&law and claim that its their talent and smartness! like wise as a parent we end up with lot of confusions and dilemmas in handing over the children's guidance even to the teacher (or) letting them to fend for themselves, for the meek wont survive!..

here religious divine authority seems to be more convincing and appealing. do you remember our moms force feeding us by scaring with that imaginary பூச்சாண்டி ..for you god is a பூச்சாண்டி , but for, he helped to force feed my child..

i can switch sides, if you convince me on this. also dont forget, to present your pending point on 'justice for acts of debaunchery.

PS: thanks Yamaka, my wife started taking seriously your advice (4hrs a day teaching kids), and i was also impressed by that.

Hello Shiv:

"Yam, i bet, I would switch my side towards you, if you prove me quantitatively, that , in the history of our world,killing in the name of religion exceeded the rest."

Proving quantitatively will be harder... but at least I can say that Religions and Gods have killed as many numbers of humans as "other ideologies" (starting from Crusade I thru what's happening in India today between the Hindus and Muslims).

"but, tomorrow, what if my children rebuts/refutes and say, dad, i need only 10 minutes to study and i can make it good. what if my children say (15yrs later), can do a drunken speedy drive, mow down few, but escapes the cops&law and claim that its their talent and smartness! like wise as a parent we end up with lot of confusions and dilemmas in handing over the children's guidance even to the teacher (or) letting them to fend for themselves, for the meek wont survive!.."

Well.. yes, kids COULD potentially blame parents for whatever shortcomings they face in their life.. that you need to expect... parents can answer them like "Well guys, we did what we thought was good for YOU... if it turned out to be bad, we are sorry... anyway, we wish you the best in your life!"

"here religious divine authority seems to be more convincing and appealing."

Since you are convinced, then you need to follow your religious divine authority... I walked away from it because I thought it's all "Man-made stories"!

"i can switch sides, if you convince me on this. also dont forget, to present your pending point on 'justice for acts of debaunchery."

By debauchery, I hope you mean "excessive indulgence in sensual pleasure" or "intemperance".

I assume that you believe God and Poorva Jenma Karma & its consequences are the source of justice for acts of debauchery...

I disagree.

In the last forty long years, as I wrote earlier, I never worshiped any God for ANYTHING.. in fact, I have been writing ill of all Gods and Religions (thus committing sins, in the eyes of the Believers).

Still, in my mind, I could clearly tell myself what's an excessive sensual behavior..what's a "no.. no" and what's acceptable behavior... my point is you don't NEED to subscribe to any God or Religion to get that "inner RIGHT call".

Again, to repeat what I have written before, what governs my daily behavior is this -

I ask myself "What do I expect from OTHERS with respect to their behavior towards ME and the Society?"

The answer I always get is "Be nice and reasonable to ME /Society and follow the laws of the land".

This is exactly what I follow towards THEM and the Society "Be nice and reasonable to THEM, and follow the laws of the land".


Regarding raising your kids:

I wish you well... and I am pretty sure that everything will payoff, at the end...

In my case, after walking away from all Gods and Religions (and bad mouthing about them constantly!) one thing I believe I achieved was raising two kids successfully and make them "Salutatorian" (daughter) in her High School For Performing & Visual Arts (the most prominent alumnus of this school is none other than Beyonce!) and "Valedictorian" (son) in his High School... to the utter annoyance and consternation of very many religious TBs around me! Lol.

Daughter went to Cornell University - an Ivy School in upstate New York, and son went to Stanford University - an Elite powerhouse in the West Coast. They both have graduated with flying colors from there... and daughter is already an MD from a good State Medical School....son is becoming a "trail blazer"!

And.. I did NOT give any religious education to them at all. They will not identify themselves with any God or Religion so far. ( I know many people will be sickened to see me bragging about my kids!! Lol)

And.. I have the most friendly and loving relationship with them to date!

That gives me lots of satisfaction! Lol.

Peace.

 

[nachi naga]

karma is no theory.its a practical living tool.

when i ponder about my life now,i wonder all my vedic astrlogy knowledge!i wonder in my ponderings about events to which i had full control yet mismanaged the show called life.astrology is such tool,that answeres for anything can be found in no time,if one is an expert.yet,when i see how i have shaped my life,i am back 2 square 1.?

my cocksure attitude is no longer cocky for one.two i am still happy go lucky kind of guy.i compare how worse things could have gotten yet the merciful compassionate teacher pardons me,lets me live with dignity and honor.truly karma is the answere,especially for me poorva janma karma.the present janma i see what i created by my actions.

prarabhdha,agami,sanchitha is how known teachers of hind philosophy classify them.i personally feel,the gita is must read for all hindus,as lord krishna explains everything in this book.truly an epic read for all,provided one has the karma to read it !

 

[prasad1]

Hello Shiv:
And.. I did NOT give any religious education to them at all. They will not identify themselves with any God or Religion so far.

And.. I have the most friendly and loving relationship with them to date!

That gives me lots of satisfaction and of course pride! Lol.

Peace.

I agree with your post and do congratulate you on raising two successful kids.

What would have happened if one turned out to be mass murderer? Would it your fault. We do provide a nurturing environment for our kids but it is their karma how they turn out to be. Do you know that Asian american kids have the highest number of suicide among school age children. Majority of the kids interviewed after unsuccessful attempt point to the pressure of parental expectation.

We gave them education, support, and all kinds of other worldly knowledge about sport, finance, culture and religion (as much as we know). But also told them that they can choose what they want to do. How they do it, or what they do is strictly their business.""