Does karma theory make us suffer?

[sarang]

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Full of spirits of the non liquid but right kind! 'No spirits', "No".

Not me!! :lol:

No spirits and always

 

[Vaagmi]

2. More than a view point the basis seem to be a belief which is true for most religion based traditions. The question that is relevant in my thinking is how reasonable is that belief, how useful is it and if it does not contradict our current knowledge (or find a satisfactory way to resolve the contradiction if any) . God concept is believed by many in the world. Their definition of this God seem to vary

These questions arise in the mind of every searching student if he is serious. And he finds answers to these questions too and then only with reasonable satisfaction accepts the viewpoint/belief system (I have mentioned about searching for validations in earlier posts and that process involves this ). To me the answers I found indicate that this belief is quite reasonable, useful practically and it does not contradict my current knowledge. And a question: How complete is our current knowledge?

3. The journey described is understandable. The question is if this journey is a way all other religions describe to resolve a seeming problem arising out of another belief.
If for example a fear of Papa Karma from prior births ( a belief) is replaced by Original Sin (due to Eve eating a fruit) and if scripture (Veda) is replaced by another (Bible) the argument to an alien would appear the same. In other words the whole 'logic' after initial injected beliefs causing fear is invariant across religions.

So what? All belief systems have many similarities. Ultimately the God entity can be only one and that is accepted by all religions. Let us for the moment keep aside those belief systems which fiercely swear by their belief in a particular God only. That being so, what if all religions/belief systems unanimously say that papas will be forgiven by God if you repent and surrender That would only mean that there are different streams of thought which concur on the end result. Should it in any way reduce the authenticity of the finding? I do not understand the argument. Please elaborate. What you call the "injected fear" is perhaps the manifestation of fear in frenzied mobs performing repentance rituals. I am not discussing that. I am talking about matters at an intellectual level. I have no fear whatsoever about anything leave alone papas and punya and yet I accept this Surrender principle as a reasoned well founded one. There are many in Christianity too who do not look for a trade off in their surrender and repentance. It all depends on the level at which you are looking at this. For a small time thief the pangs of conscience may drive him to go to the church and make a confession to the priest behind the screen there. Whereas for one who has traversed a lot of distance in the spiritual journey, the surrender or Saranagati done properly would mean the final, decisive and a fulfilling end to his painful, long search. You would again call that just a belief. But it is just your opinion and you are entitled to keep it.

Then a listener has to settle for a given description of God, unconditionally accept a given idea of an injected belief in the tradition and follow stated actions (ike surrender) to remove the fear.

The description of God is never given. It is just derived and understood by an individual. He may start with what is given but soon would struggle with a million questions and doubt and give it up. Then the search will start if he has the time and inclination. He will derive a definition (if that is needed at all) and understand God depending on his intellectual capacity and sincerity. As long as he has fear he can not begin his search at all. Surrender is not a prescription. It is just solution available for those who want it after understanding it.

4. I am not searching. I like to understand if someone has deep conviction to learn what causes them to have such a conviction and the basis for that.

I understand your curiosity. Let me answer it straight. I have found answers for these and many more questions by my personal search. My journey started in the most queer and unlikely starting point-in a Leftist Radical Political party's classroom. The questions I had were really tough and searching for an answer was not a cakewalk because the search was within me and outside. You are not searching. So if and when you start doing that please let me know what you found. Thanks.

 

[sangom]

Hi Renuka,

No, the stealing is the bad karma committed by the thief.Hence as a consequence to the bad karma, he suffers an untimely & terriblefate !!

People today do not understand when they steal fromothers, they think it is no big deal. They are stealing the bad karma of the victims& the victims are liberated from their bad karma !!!!

< snipped >

I have not gone through all the posts since my last one, but the above reasoning (in bold font) is seen in one or two posts and that makes me write these views of mine.

If one Person X steals something from someone else Y (the latter Y himself having got that "thing" through bad karma) X who steals of course commits a Karma but (by no scriptural authority or evidence - I have not come across any such thing so far.), does he (X) take over (or steal, as is being said here) the bad karma committed by Y in the first place. Both X and Y commit certain Karma and we humans cannot correctly divine what all will be the results of the Karmas for X or Y. This is what I have understood so far.

 

[dhikshita]

Shri dhikshita,

"curse" actually works. But we ordinary people may not be able to see a curse working like what our puranic films and serials—someone cursing and the victim turning to ashes/dog/pig/demon etc., in the next moment. Curses by ordinary people like us work slowly, and these attack the victim when the appropriate time comes according to his/her overall Karma pattern. That is why I think, some of the old women in our tabra circles used to shout "naasamattu pO" in order to vent their anger on some children, at times. Once when I asked an old lady whether it was not her anger, and not the words which will cause the harm of curse, she replied that once the spoken words come out of the mouth, then it has the sanction of Goddess Saraswathi and the opposite effect will not happen.

Not only express curses but also mental and/or physical pain, sufferings, trouble, etc., which are intentionally caused to others who are under one's protection and are helpless, will cause curses to befall the family; the result could be dramatic, with the whole family withering away in a mysterious manner within a matter of one or two decades, or it may be a "standing curse" to remind everyone in that family that there is a curse; very often one or more children in each generation will have incorrigible deformities, madness, and even split tongue like that of a snake.

In the olden days there were good, god-fearing astrologers who could find out the exact nature of the curse, what type of person had cursed and what parihaaram was likely to ameliorate or cure the manifestation of the curse, etc. Nowadays, we as a society, are moving more and more towards western ways. Therefore, we have started questioning such old beliefs but, nevertheless these things do operate because they are all part of some universal, inexorable laws which are, as yet, not understood by man.

In my life time I have seen such curses annihilating the whole family, slowly, but completely.But usually such curses do not prevent or slow down progress etc., and that must be due to reasons outside of this.

Dear Sir,
My sincere thanks for an explicit, meticulous, methodical besides analytical approach about the phrase 'curse'. You have explained the pros and cons that would jeopardize the human being. You have opined that those things do operate because they are part of Universal, inexorable Laws which are, as yet not understood by man. You have also quoted that curse would annihilate the whole family slowly. I do have my own fear over that issue but you have said that sometime it may turn down the evil effect due to reasons outside of this. What is that outside?

 

[Raji Ram]

One more question arises after reading the latest post by Sangom Sir!

It is said that those who have black patch on their tongue will have the power to curse!
'kari nAkku chonnAl palikkum!' It is true? :fear:

 

[dhikshita]

Sri dhikshita

Thanks!

The Karma model is itself rooted in a belief system with few references in Upanishads. The model, which is more elaborate than what I wrote is derived from reasoning from limited references in our scriptures by many teachers.

We can live with a belief if it is reasonable and helpful while not contradicting what we understand from common observation and common sense. Karma model fits this test of reasonableness and helpfulness. The interpretation of curse and its impact that Sri Sangom stated in an earlier post does not meet the test of reasonableness and helpfulness.

Curse is an action by someone using words / mouth. Like all actions there will be a consequence within this Karma model. But power accorded to 'curses' is harmful imagination and best rejected. There is no basis for this in our scriptures (noting that Puranas are not really scriptures in this definition)

Prarabdha Karma is not determined by anything any of us know. It is really an acknowledgement that once any life begins the living being is fulfilling the effects of an assigned past Karma.

When you throw a ball in the air it comes down after some time. It is it thrown faster than 7 miles per second it will not return. The action of the ball is determined by how it is thrown by us. The result is determined by the natural laws.

The laws that pervade the universe are called 'Isvara's laws' and since laws determine the outcome , Isvara is said to be the 'Karma Phala Dhata' - meaning giver of the fruits of Karma.

Prarabdha Karma itself is determined by laws of Karma and once it has begun cannot be changed. As an analogy if a country shoots a missile on another often there are no mechanism built in to recall it. However one can try shoot down that missile.

The beliefs in Pariharams is in that spirit.

Can new Karma (Agami) be done that can help offset the results of an unfolding Prarabdha Karma? No one can prove or disprove if doing Pariharams can offset anything.

For matters of practical application I would say (and it is an opinion) that we ask if a belief in a given Pariharam is reasonable and helpful.

Astrologers are constantly coming up with new Dodhams and Pariharams to drum up new business.

Overall I would suggest (and it is an opinion) that we reject all these Pariharam and curses since they have no real basis in our knowledge part of our scripture.

You can take up daily meditation along the lines of Chapter 11 of B.Gita as an alternative. Nothing 'bad' will happen and even if some events do happen you will have the courage to meet them head on.

Our scriptures teach us about fearlessness which represent exactly opposite to what curses and pariharams promote.

Let me borrow a few quotes from Sri Vivekananda
=============
WWW.PGCKAVALI.IN - SWAMI VIVEKANANDA INSPIRATIONAL QUOTATIONS





1.BE NOT AFRIED OF ANYTHING .YOU WILL DO MARVELLOUS WORK .THE MOVEMENT YOU ARE FEAR, YOU ARE NOBODY.IT IS FEAR THAT IS THE GREAT CAUSE OF MISERYIN THE WORLD.IF IS FEARLESSNESS THAT BRINGS HEAVEN EVEN IN A MOVEMENT .THEREFORE, “ARISE, AWAKE, AND STOPE NOT TILL THE GOAL IS REACHED”


2.ALL THE POWER IS WITHIN YOU; YOU CAN DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. BELIEVE IN THAT, DON’T BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE WEAK.STAND UP AND EXPRESS THE DIVINITY WITHIN YOU...


3.TO SUCCEED,YOU MUST HAVE TREMENDOUS PRESERANCE,TREMENDOUS WILL.’I WILL DRINK THE OCEAN’ , SAY THE PRESEVERING SOUL,’AT MY WILL MOUNTAINS WILL CRUMBLE UP’, HAVE THAT SORT OF ENERGY,THAT SORT OF WILL,WORK HARD AND YOU WILL REACH THE GOAL”


4.CONCENTRATION IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE; NOTHING CAN BE DONE WITHOUT IT.NINETY PERCENT OF THOUGHT FORCE IS WASTED BY THEORDINARY HUMAN BEING, AND THEREFORE HE IS CONSTANTLY COMMITTING BLUDNERS; THE TRAINED MAN OR MIND NEVER MAKES A MISTAKEE


5.TEACH YOURSELVES, TEACH EVERYONE, HIS REAL NATURE, CALL UPON THE SLEEPING SOUL AND SEE HOW IT AWAKES.
POWER WILL COME, GLORY WIL COME, GOODNESS WILL COME,
PURITY WILL COME, AND EVERYTHING THAT IS EXCELLENT WILL COME,


WHEN THIS SLEEPING SOUL IS ROUSED TO SELF-CONSCIOUS ACTIVITY.


6.IF YOU REALLY WANT TO JUDGE OF THE CHARACTER OF A MAN, LOOK NOT HIS GREAT PERFORMANCES, EVERY FOOL MAY BECOME A HERO AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. WATCH A MAN DO HIS MOST COMMON ACTIONS; THOSE ARE INDEED THE THINGS WHICH WIIL TELL YOU THE REAL CHARACTER OF GREAT MAN.


7.NO ONE CAN SUFFER FOR ALL TIME.NO ONE WILL SPEND ALL HIS DAYS ON THIS EARTH IN SUFFERING.EVERY ACTION BRINGS ITS OWN RESULT, AND ONE GETS ONE’S OPPORTUNITIES ACCORDINGLY.


8.ALL THE POWERS IN THE UNIVERSE ARE ALREADY OURS.IT IS WE WHO HAVE PUT OUR HANDS BEFORE OUR EYES AND CRY THAT IT IS DARK.KNOW THAT IS NO DARKNESS AROUND US.TAKE THE HANDS AWAY AND THERE IS THE LIGHT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING. ‘WE WHO ARE FOOLS CRY THAT WE ARE WEAK, WE ARE LIONS DON’T THINK UR WEAK’


9.Take up one idea. Make that one idea your life - think of it, dream of it, live on that idea. Let the brain, muscles, nerves, every part of your body, be full of that idea, and just leave every other idea alone. This is the way to success, that is way great spiritual giants are produced.”


10.“We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act.”


11.“The goal of mankind is knowledge ... Now this knowledge is inherent in man. No knowledge comes from outside: it is all inside. What we say a man 'knows', should, in strict psychological language, be what he 'discovers' or 'unveils'; what man 'learns' is really what he discovers by taking the cover off his own soul, which is a mine of infinite knowledge.”


12.This is a great fact: strength is life; weakness is death. Strength is felicity, life eternal, immortal; weakness is constant strain and misery, weakness is death


13.Never mind failures; they are quite natural, they are the beauty of life-these failures. What would life be without them? It would not be worth having if it were not for struggles. Where would be the poetry of life? Never mind the struggles, the mistakes. I never heard a cow tell a lie, but it is only a cow-never a man. So never mind these failures, these little backslidings; hold the ideal a thousand times; and if you fail a thousand times, make the attempt once more...


14.Stand up and fight! Not one step back, that is the idea. Fight it out, whatever comes. Let the stars move from the spheres! Let the whole world stand against us! Death means only a change of garment. What of it? Thus fight! You gain nothing by becoming cowards. Taking a step backward, you do not avoid any misfortune. You have cried to all the gods in the world. Has misery ceased? The gods come to help you when you have succeeded. So what is the use? Die game. You are infinite, deathless, birth less. Because you are infinite spirit, it does not befit you to be a slave. Arise! Awake! Stand up and fight!


15.Never say, ‘no’; never say, ‘I cannot’, for you are infinite. Even time and space are as nothing compared with your nature. You can do anything and everything. You are almighty.


16.Say, ‘This misery that I am suffering is of my own doing, and that very thing proves that it will have to be undone by me alone.’ That which I created, I can demolish; that which is created by someone else, I shall never be able to destroy. Therefore, stand up, be bold, be strong. Take the whole responsibility on your own shoulders, and know that you are the creators of your own destiny. All the strength and succour you want is within ourselves.


17.Every thought that we think, every deed that we do, after a certain time becomes fine, goes into the seed form, so to speak, and lives in the fine body in a potential form, and after a time, it emerges again and bears its results. These results condition the life of man. Thus he moulds his own life. Man is not bound by any other laws excepting those which he makes for himself.


18.Do not recognize wickedness in others. Wickedness is ignorance, weakness. What is the good of telling people they are weak? Criticism and destruction are of no avail. We must give them a little higher; tell them of their own glorious nature, their birthright.


19.It is fear alone that is death. You have to go beyond all fear. So from this day, be fearless. Off at once, to lay down your life for your own liberation and for the good of others. What good is it carrying a load of bones and flesh!


20.Even the least work done for others awakens the power within. Even thinking the least amount good for others gradually instills into the heart, the strength of a lion. Get up, and put your shoulders to the wheel. How long is this life for? As you have come into the world, leave some mark behind. Otherwise, where is the difference between you and the trees and stones..


21.Be brave! Be strong! Be fearless! Once you have taken up the spiritual life, fight as long as there is any life in you. Even though you know you are going to be killed, fight till you “are killed.” Don’t die of fright. Die fighting. Don’t go down till you are knocked down.


22.The weak, the fearful, the ignorant will never reach the Atman. You cannot undo what you have done; the effect must come. Face it, but be careful never to do the same thing again. Give up the burden of all deeds to God. Give all, both good and bad. God helps those who do not help themse


23.The moment you fear, you are nobody. It is fear that is the great cause of misery in the world. It is fear that is the greatest of all superstitions. It is the fear that is the cause of our woes, and it is fearlessness that brings heaven in a moment...


OTHER

Dear Sir,

At the very outset, let me take this opportunity to thank you very much Sir, to throw the wisdom from your upper chamber on others so as to enable them to arrive at a meaning about what is life and what is beyond curse etc.
It is a great pride for being born as an India since the inspirational quotations of Sri Swami Vivekananda would create an awareness in inner mind to awake and perform the assignments directs by Almighty.

You have quoted that for curse, there is no basis for this in our scriptures. Also mentioned that prarabdha karma is not determined by anything that anyone of us know. Apart from that living being is fulfilling effects of an assigned past karma. Prarabdha karma itself is determined by Laws of Karma (Iswara's laws) and once it began it cannot be changed. Thanks for all these ethics.
As advised by PJ Ji Sir, I am daily reciting the Thirugnanasambandar's Kolaru Pathigam in my prayer in order to get rid of myself relieved from the clutches of Sri Sani Bhagwan and keeping in mind and heart the preaching of Mahaperiyava. His beckon light vanishes my fear and frustration rescues me from such things. His blessings does it without fail. This is my experience.

 

[tks]

Dear Sir,

At the very outset, let me take this opportunity to thank you very much Sir, to throw the wisdom from your upper chamber on others so as to enable them to arrive at a meaning about what is life and what is beyond curse etc.
It is a great pride for being born as an India since the inspirational quotations of Sri Swami Vivekananda would create an awareness in inner mind to awake and perform the assignments directs by Almighty.

You have quoted that for curse, there is no basis for this in our scriptures. Also mentioned that prarabdha karma is not determined by anything that anyone of us know. Apart from that living being is fulfilling effects of an assigned past karma. Prarabdha karma itself is determined by Laws of Karma (Iswara's laws) and once it began it cannot be changed. Thanks for all these ethics.
As advised by PJ Ji Sir, I am daily reciting the Thirugnanasambandar's Kolaru Pathigam in my prayer in order to get rid of myself relieved from the clutches of Sri Sani Bhagwan and keeping in mind and heart the preaching of Mahaperiyava. His beckon light vanishes my fear and frustration rescues me from such things. His blessings does it without fail. This is my experience.

Thanks for being generous with your comments - Prayers can help calm your mind and it seems to work for you. I wish you all the best

 

[SANDHYAV]

.9

 

[krish44]

.9

?.1.1 average 1.0 excellent post by dikshita ji

 

[tks]

These questions arise in the mind of every searching student if he is serious. And he finds answers to these questions too and then only with reasonable satisfaction accepts the viewpoint/belief system (I have mentioned about searching for validations in earlier posts and that process involves this ). To me the answers I found indicate that this belief is quite reasonable, useful practically and it does not contradict my current knowledge. And a question: How complete is our current knowledge?



So what? All belief systems have many similarities. Ultimately the God entity can be only one and that is accepted by all religions. Let us for the moment keep aside those belief systems which fiercely swear by their belief in a particular God only. That being so, what if all religions/belief systems unanimously say that papas will be forgiven by God if you repent and surrender That would only mean that there are different streams of thought which concur on the end result. Should it in any way reduce the authenticity of the finding? I do not understand the argument. Please elaborate. What you call the "injected fear" is perhaps the manifestation of fear in frenzied mobs performing repentance rituals. I am not discussing that. I am talking about matters at an intellectual level. I have no fear whatsoever about anything leave alone papas and punya and yet I accept this Surrender principle as a reasoned well founded one. There are many in Christianity too who do not look for a trade off in their surrender and repentance. It all depends on the level at which you are looking at this. For a small time thief the pangs of conscience may drive him to go to the church and make a confession to the priest behind the screen there. Whereas for one who has traversed a lot of distance in the spiritual journey, the surrender or Saranagati done properly would mean the final, decisive and a fulfilling end to his painful, long search. You would again call that just a belief. But it is just your opinion and you are entitled to keep it.



The description of God is never given. It is just derived and understood by an individual. He may start with what is given but soon would struggle with a million questions and doubt and give it up. Then the search will start if he has the time and inclination. He will derive a definition (if that is needed at all) and understand God depending on his intellectual capacity and sincerity. As long as he has fear he can not begin his search at all. Surrender is not a prescription. It is just solution available for those who want it after understanding it.



I understand your curiosity. Let me answer it straight. I have found answers for these and many more questions by my personal search. My journey started in the most queer and unlikely starting point-in a Leftist Radical Political party's classroom. The questions I had were really tough and searching for an answer was not a cakewalk because the search was within me and outside. You are not searching. So if and when you start doing that please let me know what you found. Thanks.

1. If you are satisfied that is all that matters in my view

2. It is not just a God concept but theologies created by humans are widely divergent. They are the cause of wars because beliefs/faith are often outside reasons. Two beliefs however similar can cause serious issues between people.

Having said this with your understanding of the God concept and if the feelings and the thinking of Saranagathi in your experience is giving you all the fulfillment in the world then nothing else matters in my view.

I do not want to repeat myself - but if someone asks anyone to 'unconditionally surrender' to "asasskjd;ds;dd" it is not possible. This means with some theology, repetition of ideas of God concept and cure for something possibly fear producing (e.g., hell) people are surrendered into surrender concept to this God concept.

If the concepts have rational and logical basis supported *partially* by experience then they are likely to be long lasting.

Based on what I have read of your writing (and I can be wrong) my notion of this surrender concept or Isvara or Bhakthi is very different not relying on faith as the main foundation. I do not want to debate this here or explain anymire. I wanted to state this only to explain where my questions were coming from.

3. Understand and agree too ..

4. Thanks for sharing. Reason to not 'search' on my part is that it is not applicable anymore. Focus is now more on learning and practice now.

 

[Raji Ram]

The following Q has appeared in another thread!

WHAT really makes a person suffer or enjoy in his present janma...

the effects of his Karma :decision: the theory of karma???

It is believed that if people suffer because of their bad karmas in this birth itself , then they will NOT have the

subsequent births and will reach the Lotus Feet of the Almighty! All the suffering elders are consoled by saying,

'indha janmaththilEyE anubhavichchA, aduththa janmamE kidaiyAdhu'! This opts out the possibility of euthanasia.

Hence my query, whether karma theory makes us suffer, by NOT allowing us to decide on our death! :ballchain:

 

[renuka]

The following Q has appeared in another thread!



It is believed that if people suffer because of their bad karmas in this birth itself , then they will NOT have the

subsequent births and will reach the Lotus Feet of the Almighty! All the suffering elders are consoled by saying,

'indha janmaththilEyE anubhavichchA, aduththa janmamE kidaiyAdhu'! This opts out the possibility of euthanasia.

Hence my query, whether karma theory makes us suffer, by NOT allowing us to decide on our death! :ballchain:

Dear RR ji,

But thats hard to predict isnt it cos none of us know the Sanchita Karma that is in store and when and how it will sprout and what will be the outcomes whether for the better or the worse.

So the best is to take life as it comes ..its easier on the mind.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Tmt RR

I think your OP was aptly addressed - I guess there is only one lady doctor [ that too in Malaysia ]
who studies her patients' symptoms with DHARMOMETERS and uses ESOTERIC KARMO GRAPHS
to arrive at a diagnosis.

I think she should have the last word on this.

Yay Yem

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear RR ji,

But thats hard to predict isnt it cos none of us know the Sanchita Karma that is in store and when and how it will sprout and what will be the outcomes whether for the better or the worse.

So the best is to take life as it comes ..its easier on the mind.

Dear Renu,

I know! That is why no one opts for euthanasia, though they suffer a lot of pain!

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Tmt RR

I think your OP was aptly addressed - ...........

Dear A M Sir,

Thank you very much!

 

[dhikshita]

Jaykay ji,


Just a question....a Tiger becomes a man eater only when it wounded and unable to hunt as well..now coming to the Karma scenario here:


1)Who or what wounded the Tiger?? A hunter or self acquired injury?

2)When did the hunter wound the tiger..what was the Karma of the hunter that he had to wound the tiger? a Karmic debt? How did the Tiger sustain the self acquired injury and why?

3)Now..what is the Brahmin doing with jewels?? Isnt a true Brahmin not suppose to have jewels? What was the Karma of the Brahmin that he actually decided to be in possession of jewels? Why did he not follow his svadharma of not being interested in material? Why? was it his previous birth vasanas that were showing up in this birth or was he a jeevan muktha just finishing off his Prarabdha Karma and the possession of the jewels did not bind him in anyway or was he falling down his evolutionary scale by becoming materialistic?

4)Ok now the thief..why was he stealing from the Brahmin? Was is becos the Brahmin owed him something is his previous birth?


5)Now why did the tiger decide to eat the thief?? What was the Karma of the thief that was linked to the tiger? Was the thief a hunter in a previous birth that killed a tiger and gave its skin to a sage to meditate upon??


So this birth..the tiger becomes a man eater tiger....kills the thief who was a hunter in the previous life and had killed it and since the sage used the tiger skin so that means the sage too "participated" in the act of depriving the tiger of its life and skin..hence the sage was born as brahmin who lost his jewels so that he knows the pain of losing something that belongs to you..

So in this case..no one is innocent..no one steals anyone's Karma..Karma is like our own shadow.

Madam,

While supporting the write up of Mr.Jaykay 767, I fully agree with you that 'Karma is like our own shadow' and a question arises in my mind that is it an impossible task to get rid it for ever?

 

[Vaagmi]

1. If you are satisfied that is all that matters in my view

2. It is not just a God concept but theologies created by humans are widely divergent. They are the cause of wars because beliefs/faith are often outside reasons. Two beliefs however similar can cause serious issues between people.

Having said this with your understanding of the God concept and if the feelings and the thinking of Saranagathi in your experience is giving you all the fulfillment in the world then nothing else matters in my view.

I do not want to repeat myself - but if someone asks anyone to 'unconditionally surrender' to "asasskjd;ds;dd" it is not possible. This means with some theology, repetition of ideas of God concept and cure for something possibly fear producing (e.g., hell) people are surrendered into surrender concept to this God concept.

If the concepts have rational and logical basis supported *partially* by experience then they are likely to be long lasting.

Based on what I have read of your writing (and I can be wrong) my notion of this surrender concept or Isvara or Bhakthi is very different not relying on faith as the main foundation. I do not want to debate this here or explain anymire. I wanted to state this only to explain where my questions were coming from.

3. Understand and agree too ..

4. Thanks for sharing. Reason to not 'search' on my part is that it is not applicable anymore. Focus is now more on learning and practice now.

tksji,

2. My view is that God concept is at a higher level. Theologies largely attempt to rally and organize people around an icon either for the welfare of the society or for the satisfaction of an individual. Our elders believe that there is a clear distinction between theology and philosophy. That is the reason why people have gone to war with their theologies while philosophers just argue. I am unable to accept that all that is there in a theistic religion is outside reason. There is quite a lot with sound reason as long as the God concept is dealt with. When you get down to the details of worship and then rituals the reasons are given a go by for the sake of discipline, command and control. I believe theology and theistic religion does need these laid down structures so that there is a clear direction and no listless wandering. If you look for reasons in the rituals and worship patterns you are looking for the wrong sort of reason in the wrong place. If not religion people will always find some other reasons to fight and shed blood.

You have said this; "if someone asks anyone to 'unconditionally surrender' to "asasskjd;ds;dd" it is not possible. This means with some theology, repetition of ideas of God concept and cure for something possibly fear producing (e.g., hell) people are surrendered into surrender concept to this God concept".

If you have searched for answers and have understood yourself well, if you have understood the God Idea well and if you believe Saranagati is a good path for the ultimate goal, only then you adopt that path. It is not as if someone tells you to do that and you try it. As long as it is "not possible" for you to surrender to God unconditionally, you are not even fit enough to surrender. It appears you are obsessed with the people's fear being a reason for taking the surrender route. No one is really afraid of anything. Go and ask an illiterate old lady who sells flower near the temple. She will tell you that she is not afraid of death. She is afraid of only a painful death. So the fear is for pain and not death. Most of the people do not bother about hell.

Even without bothering about any faith foundation, saranagati can be accepted as the solution. For that it requires clearing the mind. You have to jettison most of what you have acquired so far. And that is a difficult task.

4. If 'learning and practice' is the current path, a word of caution: Practice involves still an "I". There perhaps lies the key to Saranagati.

Thanks.

 

[renuka]

Madam,

While supporting the write up of Mr.Jaykay 767, I fully agree with you that 'Karma is like our own shadow' and a question arises in my mind that is it an impossible task to get rid it for ever?

Dear sir,

From Wikipedia..definition of a shadow:

A shadow is an area where direct light from a light source cannot reach due to obstruction by an object.

So if we remove the obstruction there is no shadow formation.

The light source is our Atma and the obstruction being our fruit bearing desires.

So remove the fruit bearing desires and there is no shadow.

 

[tks]

tksji,

2. My view is that God concept is at a higher level. Theologies largely attempt to rally and organize people around an icon either for the welfare of the society or for the satisfaction of an individual. Our elders believe that there is a clear distinction between theology and philosophy. That is the reason why people have gone to war with their theologies while philosophers just argue. I am unable to accept that all that is there in a theistic religion is outside reason. There is quite a lot with sound reason as long as the God concept is dealt with. When you get down to the details of worship and then rituals the reasons are given a go by for the sake of discipline, command and control. I believe theology and theistic religion does need these laid down structures so that there is a clear direction and no listless wandering. If you look for reasons in the rituals and worship patterns you are looking for the wrong sort of reason in the wrong place. If not religion people will always find some other reasons to fight and shed blood.

You have said this; "if someone asks anyone to 'unconditionally surrender' to "asasskjd;ds;dd" it is not possible. This means with some theology, repetition of ideas of God concept and cure for something possibly fear producing (e.g., hell) people are surrendered into surrender concept to this God concept".

If you have searched for answers and have understood yourself well, if you have understood the God Idea well and if you believe Saranagati is a good path for the ultimate goal, only then you adopt that path. It is not as if someone tells you to do that and you try it. As long as it is "not possible" for you to surrender to God unconditionally, you are not even fit enough to surrender. It appears you are obsessed with the people's fear being a reason for taking the surrender route. No one is really afraid of anything. Go and ask an illiterate old lady who sells flower near the temple. She will tell you that she is not afraid of death. She is afraid of only a painful death. So the fear is for pain and not death. Most of the people do not bother about hell.

Even without bothering about any faith foundation, saranagati can be accepted as the solution. For that it requires clearing the mind. You have to jettison most of what you have acquired so far. And that is a difficult task.

4. If 'learning and practice' is the current path, a word of caution: Practice involves still an "I". There perhaps lies the key to Saranagati.

Thanks.

Sri Vaagmi

In this discussion and in asking question my intent was to mainly understand your point of view.
It was not meant to draw conclusion about what I do or do not unless I was stating something explicitly. This is just for clarity

I do appreciate the time you took to answer

 

[Vaagmi]

Sri Vaagmi

In this discussion and in asking question my intent was to mainly understand your point of view.
It was not meant to draw conclusion about what I do or do not unless I was stating something explicitly. This is just for clarity

I do appreciate the time you took to answer

Mr tks,

Thanks for your time too. I think you have not yet understood what you wanted to. I give up as I do not want to ruffle unknown feathers.

 

[renuka]

Mr tks,

Thanks for your time too. I think you have not yet understood what you wanted to. I give up as I do not want to ruffle unknown feathers.

Ha Ha Ha!

Now you can understand the causative factor that led to the formation of the Mannangatti Thread!LOL

 

[tks]

Mr tks,

Thanks for your time too. I think you have not yet understood what you wanted to. I give up as I do not want to ruffle unknown feathers.

Sri Vaagmi

There is no unknown feather to ruffle. I was not trying to be abrupt. I asked questions to understand your views. My understanding is that concepts like Saranagathi will be clear if the God concept is understood properly in the first place. If I have missed anything by all means I am open to listening.

In debates and in work life - I strive to be 'hard on the issues' but 'easy on the person';.
But somehow an opposition to a point of view may come across opposition to the person which is not the case.

In any case you are welcome to say anything about what I write and my feathers if any will not be ruffled !

My 'special' friend Nara called me all kinds of names and so have others who wanted to throw a piece of clay at me LoL

I am traveling so my last response may have been a bit cryptic

 

[Vaagmi]

Sri Vaagmi

There is no unknown feather to ruffle. I was not trying to be abrupt. I asked questions to understand your views. My understanding is that concepts like Saranagathi will be clear if the God concept is understood properly in the first place. If I have missed anything by all means I am open to listening.

In debates and in work life - I strive to be 'hard on the issues' but 'easy on the person';.
But somehow an opposition to a point of view may come across opposition to the person which is not the case.

In any case you are welcome to say anything about what I write and my feathers if any will not be ruffled !

My 'special' friend Nara called me all kinds of names and so have others who wanted to throw a piece of clay at me LoL

I am traveling so my last response may have been a bit cryptic

Mr. tks,

That is okay. I understand. No problem.

 

[tks]

Mr. tks,

That is okay. I understand. No problem.

Sri Vaagmi

I did not mean to drop out of discussion if you think there is more to discuss.

I found the following write up from my notes and ask if you are more aligned with the 'popular' description of Saranagati or the 'traditional' version of Saranagati (using the term used by the author). My writing here is more in alignment with the 'traditional group

It is not my writing and I would amend it somewhat but for the purposes of the discussion let me present it as is.
Will provide reference details later when I find it.

=========================================================


Most of the religions of the world share a common teaching which is popular and powerful message – ‘God will save you if you will surrender to Him’. And so we are encouraged and exhorted to choose God as our savior, treat God as our refuge and take God as our shelter. If we thus surrender to God as our savior, refuge and shelter, we will be free from all the problems of life.

This universal message is also found in Hinduism. Surrendering to the Lord and taking Him as refuge is called saranagati. Today the saranagati message has become very popular. Many people explain and expound the tenets and precepts of saranagati. (Let us call this group, the popular group and the saranagati enunciated by them as the popular saranagati.) Unfortunately this saranagati is so different from the saranagati that is given in our scriptures. (Let us call this saranagati, the traditional saranagati and its believers the traditional group.)

There are four main differences between the two groups.

1. The first and foremost concept, the most powerful message given by the popular group is that we have to surrender our will to the Lord. This group does accept free will but claims that in saranagati our free will has to be surrendered to God’s will.

The traditional group says free will is the most unique feature that humans are blessed with. A human being is a human being only because of this gift called free will. It is this faculty that differentiates us from all other living beings. Free will enables us to choose the right goal (called purusarthas) and the right path. Choosing between options is possible only by the exercise of free will. Katha Upanisad talks about two paths, the good and the pleasant that are open to man. (1.1.2). A discerning man chooses the good while short-sighted person prefers the pleasant. It is by exercising our free will that we can get moksa. Hence, there is no question of surrendering free will in traditional saranagati.

2. The popular group points out that we must transfer all our responsibilities to God. Thereafter God will decide what we have to get and how. The Lord knows our problems and He will take care of us. This is a very, very popular message of the popular group.

The traditional group feels that as human beings endowed with free will we have the privilege of exercising choice. Hence, we must accept responsibility and take charge of our lives. Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavat-Gita – ‘One should lift oneself by one’s own efforts’ (6.5). How can we lift ourselves by ourselves? We have to use our buddhi or intellect. Katha Upanisad says that he who uses the intellect and chooses the right path attains the highest goal (1.3.9). What we have to do, Bhagavan can never do, will never do. At best God will be a cheer leader encouraging us in the game of life just as parents at best can only cheer their little ones in a running race and not run the race for them. Hence, there is no transfer of responsibility in traditional saranagati.

3. The popular group recommends that having surrendered our will and transferred responsibility to the Lord, we must have faith in God and His capacity to solve all our problems. God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc., and therefore He will solve our problems.


We may be a little skeptical. Our problems are many – financial problems, family problems, career problems, etc. Is God going to solve all our problems? And how will He do that? The popular group responds by narrating innumerable stories of devotees – how they were rescued by God. All these stories have a common feature – the occurrence of miracles. All the devotees were saved from their trials and tribulations by miracles. The message conveyed is that in our lives too we can and should expect miracles since we have surrendered our will and responsibility to the Lord. The popular group believes faith in God is tantamount to faith in God’s miracles.

The traditional group postulates that God rescues His devotees through His teaching. God has already provided solutions to all our problems in the teaching which is the sastra or scriptures. The word ‘sastra’ means that which protects the people, i.e., the protector. The word ‘saranam’ that occurs in ‘saranagati’ also means protector. Thus saranagati means sastragati. These teachings do not refer to the miracle stories that do find mention in the sastras. What then is the central teaching of the scriptures? The scriptures teach us how to face life. The sastra answers our questions. Who am I? What is the world? How does the world create problems for me? How can I solve these problems? The traditional group believes that faith in God means faith in God’s teaching.


4. The popular group suggest that we have to surrender to God who will solve all our problems. How? By performing miracles! And so whenever there is a problem or crisis in our lives, we must expect a miracle. But to our destiny we find that miracles do not happen like they keep occurring in scriptural stories. Consequently we doubt the efficacy of saranagati. We wonder whether God is blind to our problems or deaf to our pleas. God has not solved our problems even though we have surrendered to Him. Our faith in God, faith in saranagati, faith in miracles is shaken. There is a crisis in faith that is inevitable.

The popular group admonishes us that we should never doubt God; faith should be unflinching. Doubting God is a maha papam. This creates a problem. It is the nature of the intellect to doubt, question, think and analyse. The popular group says we have to set aside and suppress our intellect.


What does the traditional group say? Since we have to rescue ourselves through the teaching, we have to study and understand the scriptures. And for this we have to use our intellect. Katha Upanisad says – ‘The self is hidden in all beings. It is not noticed. Only the discerning seers, through their sharp, penetrating intellects, can perceive it. (1.3.12). Our saranagati is to the scriptures from which we have to learn the methods of protecting ourselves. In this self-protection, what is the contribution of God? It is only His teaching, the sastra. Hence, there is no suppression of intellect in traditional saranagati.


The four important differences between popular saranagati and traditional saranagati are summarized below:


Popular saranagati Traditional saranagati

1. Drop free will -- Retain free will

2. Transfer responsibility to God -- Accept responsibility

3. Have faith in God’s miracles teaching -- Have faith in God’s teachings.

4. Suppress the intellect -- Use the intellect.

A question arises when we study traditional saranagati. How does the sastra help us protect ourselves (since we do not expect miracles to solve our problems)? The sastra gives four kavacams or shields for our protection.


1. The first kavacam or method given by the scriptures is dharma. A Sanskrit verse says ‘dharma when violated, hurts us; dharma when followed protects us’. Dharma means a healthy way of life, consistent with the physical and moral laws of the universe. We cannot ignore dharma and hope to enjoy a happy life.


The sastra says all the problems we face ranging from minor suffering to major tragedies are due to our violating dharma in the immediate or remote past. We alone are accountable. We alone are accountable. We alone are responsible. If violation of dharma is the cause of our suffering, adherence to dharma is the solution to our problems. Lord Krishna talks about a dharmic way of life in several places in the Bhagavad Gita – in chapters 3, 16 and 17. Just as a healthy regimen (right food at the right time and right exercise) wards off diseases, a dharmic lifestyle protects us from problems.


2. Not all our problems are solved by dharma. Many healthy people, inspite of all their conscientious efforts, do fall ill. In such a case, sastra prescribes a special remedy called parihara or prayascittam meaning remedial measures. Many of our daily prayers including the mantras of sandhya vandanam are remedial measures. Rudram, is very, very powerful prayacitta mantra.


3. Some problems will not go away either by dhdarma or parihara. The scriptures contain stories of many people—Yudhistira, Nala, Hariscandra—who were dharmic to the core, who did all the parihara and yet had to go through untold suffering. The only method to face this situation is to develop a skill by which choiceless sufferings are converted into learning experiences. We can call this yoga kausalam. It is like extracting medicine from poison. Science has advanced to such an extent that killing poison canbe converted to life-saving drugs. If poison can be converted to medicine, suffering can be converted to tapas. Brahadaranya upanisad says – ‘This is verily a great penance that a diseased person suffers. He who knows thus wins indeed a great world’. (5.11.1). When we are afflicted with an incurable disease, we must learn to accept it as a form of tapas. This requires a lot of effort and training in that we must change our perspective and attitudes. We must stop working at the outward or external level and start working at the internal or mental level. Lord Krisna says in the Bhagavad Gita that we should not lament over the inevitable. (2.27).


4. The fourth and most powerful is atma jnanam or Self-knowledge. Once Self-knowledge solves a problem, it is solved for good. The problem is gone, never return. Lord Krisna says in the Bhagavad Gita – ‘Arjuna, when you have reached enlightenment, ignorance will delude you no more’. (4.35).


The other three shields offer a relative solution; jnanam is a permanent solution. And jnanam is provided by the sastra. The last important verse in the Bhagavad Gita is verse 18.,66, very well known as the saranagati mantra says – ‘Renounce all dharmas and take refuge in Me alone. I shall liberate you from all sins; grieve not’. In his commentary on the Bhagavat Gita, Adi Sankara does not say drop your will, drop your responsibility and wait for miracles to solve your problems, he clearly says we have to attain jnanam.


Traditional people look upon God as the giver of the sastra. God talks to us through the sastra. Even today, we can learn the sastra from a Guru. We can study and save ourselves. Therefore, saranagati means surrender to sastra, surrender to the Guru.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Vaagmi]

Sri Vaagmi

I did not mean to drop out of discussion if you think there is more to discuss.

I found the following write up from my notes and ask if you are more aligned with the 'popular' description of Saranagati or the 'traditional' version of Saranagati (using the term used by the author). My writing here is more in alignment with the 'traditional group

It is not my writing and I would amend it somewhat but for the purposes of the discussion let me present it as is.
Will provide reference details later when I find it.

=========================================================


Most of the religions of the world share a common teaching which is popular and powerful message – ‘God will save you if you will surrender to Him’. And so we are encouraged and exhorted to choose God as our savior, treat God as our refuge and take God as our shelter. If we thus surrender to God as our savior, refuge and shelter, we will be free from all the problems of life.

This universal message is also found in Hinduism. Surrendering to the Lord and taking Him as refuge is called saranagati. Today the saranagati message has become very popular. Many people explain and expound the tenets and precepts of saranagati. (Let us call this group, the popular group and the saranagati enunciated by them as the popular saranagati.) Unfortunately this saranagati is so different from the saranagati that is given in our scriptures. (Let us call this saranagati, the traditional saranagati and its believers the traditional group.)

There are four main differences between the two groups.

1. The first and foremost concept, the most powerful message given by the popular group is that we have to surrender our will to the Lord. This group does accept free will but claims that in saranagati our free will has to be surrendered to God’s will.

The traditional group says free will is the most unique feature that humans are blessed with. A human being is a human being only because of this gift called free will. It is this faculty that differentiates us from all other living beings. Free will enables us to choose the right goal (called purusarthas) and the right path. Choosing between options is possible only by the exercise of free will. Katha Upanisad talks about two paths, the good and the pleasant that are open to man. (1.1.2). A discerning man chooses the good while short-sighted person prefers the pleasant. It is by exercising our free will that we can get moksa. Hence, there is no question of surrendering free will in traditional saranagati.

2. The popular group points out that we must transfer all our responsibilities to God. Thereafter God will decide what we have to get and how. The Lord knows our problems and He will take care of us. This is a very, very popular message of the popular group.

The traditional group feels that as human beings endowed with free will we have the privilege of exercising choice. Hence, we must accept responsibility and take charge of our lives. Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavat-Gita – ‘One should lift oneself by one’s own efforts’ (6.5). How can we lift ourselves by ourselves? We have to use our buddhi or intellect. Katha Upanisad says that he who uses the intellect and chooses the right path attains the highest goal (1.3.9). What we have to do, Bhagavan can never do, will never do. At best God will be a cheer leader encouraging us in the game of life just as parents at best can only cheer their little ones in a running race and not run the race for them. Hence, there is no transfer of responsibility in traditional saranagati.

3. The popular group recommends that having surrendered our will and transferred responsibility to the Lord, we must have faith in God and His capacity to solve all our problems. God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc., and therefore He will solve our problems.


We may be a little skeptical. Our problems are many – financial problems, family problems, career problems, etc. Is God going to solve all our problems? And how will He do that? The popular group responds by narrating innumerable stories of devotees – how they were rescued by God. All these stories have a common feature – the occurrence of miracles. All the devotees were saved from their trials and tribulations by miracles. The message conveyed is that in our lives too we can and should expect miracles since we have surrendered our will and responsibility to the Lord. The popular group believes faith in God is tantamount to faith in God’s miracles.

The traditional group postulates that God rescues His devotees through His teaching. God has already provided solutions to all our problems in the teaching which is the sastra or scriptures. The word ‘sastra’ means that which protects the people, i.e., the protector. The word ‘saranam’ that occurs in ‘saranagati’ also means protector. Thus saranagati means sastragati. These teachings do not refer to the miracle stories that do find mention in the sastras. What then is the central teaching of the scriptures? The scriptures teach us how to face life. The sastra answers our questions. Who am I? What is the world? How does the world create problems for me? How can I solve these problems? The traditional group believes that faith in God means faith in God’s teaching.


4. The popular group suggest that we have to surrender to God who will solve all our problems. How? By performing miracles! And so whenever there is a problem or crisis in our lives, we must expect a miracle. But to our destiny we find that miracles do not happen like they keep occurring in scriptural stories. Consequently we doubt the efficacy of saranagati. We wonder whether God is blind to our problems or deaf to our pleas. God has not solved our problems even though we have surrendered to Him. Our faith in God, faith in saranagati, faith in miracles is shaken. There is a crisis in faith that is inevitable.

The popular group admonishes us that we should never doubt God; faith should be unflinching. Doubting God is a maha papam. This creates a problem. It is the nature of the intellect to doubt, question, think and analyse. The popular group says we have to set aside and suppress our intellect.


What does the traditional group say? Since we have to rescue ourselves through the teaching, we have to study and understand the scriptures. And for this we have to use our intellect. Katha Upanisad says – ‘The self is hidden in all beings. It is not noticed. Only the discerning seers, through their sharp, penetrating intellects, can perceive it. (1.3.12). Our saranagati is to the scriptures from which we have to learn the methods of protecting ourselves. In this self-protection, what is the contribution of God? It is only His teaching, the sastra. Hence, there is no suppression of intellect in traditional saranagati.


The four important differences between popular saranagati and traditional saranagati are summarized below:


Popular saranagati Traditional saranagati

1. Drop free will -- Retain free will

2. Transfer responsibility to God -- Accept responsibility

3. Have faith in God’s miracles teaching -- Have faith in God’s teachings.

4. Suppress the intellect -- Use the intellect.

A question arises when we study traditional saranagati. How does the sastra help us protect ourselves (since we do not expect miracles to solve our problems)? The sastra gives four kavacams or shields for our protection.


1. The first kavacam or method given by the scriptures is dharma. A Sanskrit verse says ‘dharma when violated, hurts us; dharma when followed protects us’. Dharma means a healthy way of life, consistent with the physical and moral laws of the universe. We cannot ignore dharma and hope to enjoy a happy life.


The sastra says all the problems we face ranging from minor suffering to major tragedies are due to our violating dharma in the immediate or remote past. We alone are accountable. We alone are accountable. We alone are responsible. If violation of dharma is the cause of our suffering, adherence to dharma is the solution to our problems. Lord Krishna talks about a dharmic way of life in several places in the Bhagavad Gita – in chapters 3, 16 and 17. Just as a healthy regimen (right food at the right time and right exercise) wards off diseases, a dharmic lifestyle protects us from problems.


2. Not all our problems are solved by dharma. Many healthy people, inspite of all their conscientious efforts, do fall ill. In such a case, sastra prescribes a special remedy called parihara or prayascittam meaning remedial measures. Many of our daily prayers including the mantras of sandhya vandanam are remedial measures. Rudram, is very, very powerful prayacitta mantra.


3. Some problems will not go away either by dhdarma or parihara. The scriptures contain stories of many people—Yudhistira, Nala, Hariscandra—who were dharmic to the core, who did all the parihara and yet had to go through untold suffering. The only method to face this situation is to develop a skill by which choiceless sufferings are converted into learning experiences. We can call this yoga kausalam. It is like extracting medicine from poison. Science has advanced to such an extent that killing poison canbe converted to life-saving drugs. If poison can be converted to medicine, suffering can be converted to tapas. Brahadaranya upanisad says – ‘This is verily a great penance that a diseased person suffers. He who knows thus wins indeed a great world’. (5.11.1). When we are afflicted with an incurable disease, we must learn to accept it as a form of tapas. This requires a lot of effort and training in that we must change our perspective and attitudes. We must stop working at the outward or external level and start working at the internal or mental level. Lord Krisna says in the Bhagavad Gita that we should not lament over the inevitable. (2.27).


4. The fourth and most powerful is atma jnanam or Self-knowledge. Once Self-knowledge solves a problem, it is solved for good. The problem is gone, never return. Lord Krisna says in the Bhagavad Gita – ‘Arjuna, when you have reached enlightenment, ignorance will delude you no more’. (4.35).


The other three shields offer a relative solution; jnanam is a permanent solution. And jnanam is provided by the sastra. The last important verse in the Bhagavad Gita is verse 18.,66, very well known as the saranagati mantra says – ‘Renounce all dharmas and take refuge in Me alone. I shall liberate you from all sins; grieve not’. In his commentary on the Bhagavat Gita, Adi Sankara does not say drop your will, drop your responsibility and wait for miracles to solve your problems, he clearly says we have to attain jnanam.


Traditional people look upon God as the giver of the sastra. God talks to us through the sastra. Even today, we can learn the sastra from a Guru. We can study and save ourselves. Therefore, saranagati means surrender to sastra, surrender to the Guru.

tksji,

I am now away from home attending to some personal work and an event celebration in the family. It will take the next two days to get beck to my normal mode and the usual 4th quadrant quota of time. I will get back to the forum once I am back at home. Thanks.