• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Does karma theory make us suffer?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The question I asked earlier is related to this P J Sir!
If a person opts to end his life undergoing euthanasia, will he be born again to have a similar suffering? :ballchain:

If yes, karma theory makes us suffer!

Yogis might be able to differentiate between body and soul but what about normal humans who suffer pain?

Within the explanations of the theory Prarabdha Karma will become fructified when a person seemingly 'opt' to end his/her life

In other words there is no option that can change the Prarabdha Karma and its fructification.

There are far too many variabilities built into the Karma model that it is not possible to answer definitively for any situation "what happens next" even in this life .. This means no one knows or will know about next birth if any.

The theory does allow for complete erasure of all Karmas but not by exhausting them which will require infinite future births.

Astrology is supposedly a way to look at the unfolding of Prarabdha Karma only...

My opinion: The theory is not useful for any real application. Best thing to do is not look at any Astrological predictions, and commit to life of alignment with Dharma mostly for peace of mind. This is a verifiable action in terms of value.

In other words if one can control something we can act and *try* to do so. In trying there is nothing to worry about. If something is outside our control why worry?
 
Dear Sangom ji,

You have explained very well for all of us to understand.

Especially the Ma Phaleshu Kadacana.

I had read before that the word Ma Phaleshu was used instead of Na Phaleshu to emphasis on the existence of the fruits of action and its effects.

Ma means Not and Na means No.

As long there we have a a functioning 5 senses it is almost impossible to not engage in any action.

And for any/every action there is always a reaction a.k.a fruit(phala).

Geeta uses the word Ma Phaleshu to denote that we should NOT strive for the fruit.

Geeta does not say Na Phaleshu(there is NO fruit)..but it says is "Ma Phaleshu"... that is do not even strive for the fruit any time...just as you correctly said that once a Karma is done its impossible to get out of the operation of its "phala" so the least a person could do is voluntarily strive to give up the very thought of the "phala"

The usage of the word Ma in this stanza is self explanatory that the a Phala is inevitable but never strive for it at any given time.

The word "kadācana" originally had only the negative meaning "not at any time ever" (Pl. see MW Dictionary also). mā phaleṣu kadācana means, to my limited understanding and from whatever I have heard from others, na phaleṣu kadācana only and the use of the word mā is for prosody and allowed as Poetic licence especially in the context of the use of the same word mā twice, in the same ways, in the next paada. Further, mā adhikāraste phaleṣu kadācana will not have a full sense, nor will it give the meaning "do not even strive for the fruit any time", I feel.

I also do not agree with the last line of your post because, in the next sloka, we are told —

yogasthaḥ kuru karmāṇi saṅgaṃ tyaktvā dhanaṃjaya |
sidhyasidhyoḥ samo bhūtvā samatvaṃ yoga ucyate || 2-48

Hence, it follows that if actions are performed in this way, then the results will not attach to the performer of the Karmas.
 
Dear T K S Sir,

'Don't worry! Be happy!' should be the attitude in life.

Just I am curious to know what learned members of this forum know about karma theory.

Anyway, it is not a simple math! :)
 
We can not do anything about the bad deeds in our previous births! Now, a million dollar question is this:

Believing that bad karmas in previous births affect us in this birth, if suffering person opts to undergo euthanasia,

is he / she trying to escape from the result of karma and shall be born again to suffer in a similar way?

Raji Madam

"Isn't God all-good?” Why He gives sufferings to who pray Him all the time; then what use praying Him and visiting Temples etc?

This question is in the minds of everyone at one point or the other.

If by doing Abhishekam at Sri Vanchiyam Temple or by visiting many Temples, one could win over sufferings and death, then I am sure the Hindu Population would stay put only in temples!!

"God never derives pleasure from giving pain to us. We are given choices at every point of life, did we take the right decisions;


Suffering and pain is like night and day. It is only when we undergo sufferings... we truly realize the value of happiness

Instead of crying “Why I got this, did I deserve this” to God we should ask God “What we did to deserve this” ?

At every point of our life presents with choices.

Did I go for regular check ups/ or simply postponed them?
Did I ignore any early warnings?

The answer lies with the each individual only

Human body is meant to decay as it is just an instrument to spend our karmas; the sufferings could be the an opportunity to empty all the accumulated karma and attain mukthi.

Pain is inevitable, however suffering is optional, this is exactly what Ramana maharishi too expeirenced. he decided not to suffer.

Bad karma does not mean doing bad deeds, however any worries, negative thoughts or even craving can have opposite effect on our systems, our memory is limited so we have forgotten how it all is manisfesitng now.
 
........ I also do not agree with the last line of your post because, in the next sloka, we are told —

yogasthaḥ kuru karmāṇi saṅgaṃ tyaktvā dhanaṃjaya |
sidhyasidhyoḥ samo bhūtvā samatvaṃ yoga ucyate || 2-48

Hence, it follows that if actions are performed in this way, then the results will not attach to the performer of the Karmas.
Dear Sir,

I got this meaning from one of the blogs. Please confirm if the meaning is correct. Thank you.

''Established in Yoga, O Dhananjaya (Arjuna), perform actions, giving up attachment and unconcerned

as to success or failure; (this) equanimity is called Yoga.''

Source: Śrimad Bhagavad Gīta
 
Dear T K S Sir,

'Don't worry! Be happy!' should be the attitude in life.

Just I am curious to know what learned members of this forum know about karma theory.

Anyway, it is not a simple math! :)

Dont worry, be happy *by being aligned with Dharma* is key :)
Dharma is not some complicated thing - just treating other beings as you would like to be treated is its essence (so called Golden rule termed by Christians)
 
Dont worry, be happy *by being aligned with Dharma* is key :)....
Sure Sir! Otherwise all the thieves will say that they don't worry and are happy by stealing
and other criminals also would have similar views!! :scared:
 
A SHORT COMMERCIAL BREAK HERE! THAT 30 sec commercial is amazing!!

just remembered this latest development ( 2008 )

Continuing Anglican movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also I for my personal use (fitness first!!) give this thread a discussion outcome 4: ( i moved and did some yoga postures after seeing this thread today and resulted in physical action)

yesterday i gave this thread a discussion outcome 1: ( did not understand much about the topic )
 
Last edited:
Eventful day today!

i am giving this discussion category (DOTT CATEGORY) 8. Most of you know DOTT stands for DISCUSSION(dissection) OUTCOME OF THIS THREAD + TOPIC.

With due respect for the number 8 and all the mathematicians, i chose 8 coz it is an erect INFINITY symbol. but my POINT of focus is i have UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING (LOT OF THINGS, INFINITE NUMBER OF THINGS etc), hmm.. everything, may be, yes, nanana, DEFINITELY YES.

BTW, if i invert INFINITY it becomes ZERO. hmm problem again, i have understood everything about this topic but lost precious TIME to read another thread DEATH, A DISCUSSION, i have not even opened that thread 'seriously yet', NOT, 'yet. SERIOUSLY'....DOTT 0
 
What makes us suffer is ignorance and incorrect beliefs.
Karma model is an elaborate belief system consisting of many types of Karma -

1. Sanchita Karma (which is limitless both in terms of Punya and Papa acquired due to limitless births and deaths)
2. Loosely speaking a part of assigned Karma (from Sachita Karma account) to be experienced in this birth is called Prarabdha Karma . This cannot be stopped. It is described like an arrow that has left and cannot be recalled . It will fructify.
3. Agami Karma - Being 'earned' here and now that may or may not fructify in this life or may become part of the Sanchita bank account upon death

Without getting too technical for the sake of clarity, if one accepts these definitions it is not possible to do anything about Prarabdha Karma, and one can certainly 'do something' about Agami Karma.

Birth and death cycle cannot be stopped since limitless lives are needed to exhaust limitless Sanchita Karma!

So thinking that one must suffer to avoid next birth based on this model is incorrect.

So what is a way out if there is any?

Karma - both Punya and Papa are born out of ignorance of our true nature which is already not bound. Hence only Knowledge can destroy that ignorance even in this life or any future life.

To receive this knowledge preparation often requiring life time of effort is required.

Dear Sir,

Thanks for a very crystal illustrations which even enlighten a lay if it is given in Tamil.

I do have my own doubt whether curse by forefathers persists. It was the strong opinion of my father who once said that the progress and prosperity in the family members are being prevented or rather slowed. Is it so. I believe in Prarabdha Karma which is a perpetual phenomenon but I don't have Belief over pariharas suggested by Astrologers to overcome the Act of God.Can anyone overcome the Act of God? One should definitely face the stress and strains of the past deeds in the previous life in the form of prarabdha karma and there is no alternate. Am I correct?
 
Dear Sir,

I got this meaning from one of the blogs. Please confirm if the meaning is correct. Thank you.

''Established in Yoga, O Dhananjaya (Arjuna), perform actions, giving up attachment and unconcerned

as to success or failure; (this) equanimity is called Yoga.''

Source: Śrimad Bhagavad Gīta

Yes, it is correct to a large extent. What the second line means is "taking both siddhi (attainment) and asiddhi (non-attainment) [of one's desires, obviously] as equal or sama, such equanimity is called Yoga. I personally feel the person who wrote this sloka wanted to clarify specially that he was not referring to Patanjali's Yoga or HaTha Yoga or anything else by the word "Yoga".
 
Dear Sir,

Thanks for a very crystal illustrations which even enlighten a lay if it is given in Tamil.

I do have my own doubt whether curse by forefathers persists. It was the strong opinion of my father who once said that the progress and prosperity in the family members are being prevented or rather slowed. Is it so. I believe in Prarabdha Karma which is a perpetual phenomenon but I don't have Belief over pariharas suggested by Astrologers to overcome the Act of God.Can anyone overcome the Act of God? One should definitely face the stress and strains of the past deeds in the previous life in the form of prarabdha karma and there is no alternate. Am I correct?

Shri dhikshita,

"curse" actually works. But we ordinary people may not be able to see a curse working like what our puranic films and serials—someone cursing and the victim turning to ashes/dog/pig/demon etc., in the next moment. Curses by ordinary people like us work slowly, and these attack the victim when the appropriate time comes according to his/her overall Karma pattern. That is why I think, some of the old women in our tabra circles used to shout "naasamattu pO" in order to vent their anger on some children, at times. Once when I asked an old lady whether it was not her anger, and not the words which will cause the harm of curse, she replied that once the spoken words come out of the mouth, then it has the sanction of Goddess Saraswathi and the opposite effect will not happen.

Not only express curses but also mental and/or physical pain, sufferings, trouble, etc., which are intentionally caused to others who are under one's protection and are helpless, will cause curses to befall the family; the result could be dramatic, with the whole family withering away in a mysterious manner within a matter of one or two decades, or it may be a "standing curse" to remind everyone in that family that there is a curse; very often one or more children in each generation will have incorrigible deformities, madness, and even split tongue like that of a snake.

In the olden days there were good, god-fearing astrologers who could find out the exact nature of the curse, what type of person had cursed and what parihaaram was likely to ameliorate or cure the manifestation of the curse, etc. Nowadays, we as a society, are moving more and more towards western ways. Therefore, we have started questioning such old beliefs but, nevertheless these things do operate because they are all part of some universal, inexorable laws which are, as yet, not understood by man.

In my life time I have seen such curses annihilating the whole family, slowly, but completely.But usually such curses do not prevent or slow down progress etc., and that must be due to reasons outside of this.
 
Dear Sir,

Thanks for a very crystal illustrations which even enlighten a lay if it is given in Tamil.

I do have my own doubt whether curse by forefathers persists. It was the strong opinion of my father who once said that the progress and prosperity in the family members are being prevented or rather slowed. Is it so. I believe in Prarabdha Karma which is a perpetual phenomenon but I don't have Belief over pariharas suggested by Astrologers to overcome the Act of God.Can anyone overcome the Act of God? One should definitely face the stress and strains of the past deeds in the previous life in the form of prarabdha karma and there is no alternate. Am I correct?


Sri dhikshita

Thanks!

The Karma model is itself rooted in a belief system with few references in Upanishads. The model, which is more elaborate than what I wrote is derived from reasoning from limited references in our scriptures by many teachers.

We can live with a belief if it is reasonable and helpful while not contradicting what we understand from common observation and common sense. Karma model fits this test of reasonableness and helpfulness. The interpretation of curse and its impact that Sri Sangom stated in an earlier post does not meet the test of reasonableness and helpfulness.

Curse is an action by someone using words / mouth. Like all actions there will be a consequence within this Karma model. But power accorded to 'curses' is harmful imagination and best rejected. There is no basis for this in our scriptures (noting that Puranas are not really scriptures in this definition)

Prarabdha Karma is not determined by anything any of us know. It is really an acknowledgement that once any life begins the living being is fulfilling the effects of an assigned past Karma.

When you throw a ball in the air it comes down after some time. It is it thrown faster than 7 miles per second it will not return. The action of the ball is determined by how it is thrown by us. The result is determined by the natural laws.

The laws that pervade the universe are called 'Isvara's laws' and since laws determine the outcome , Isvara is said to be the 'Karma Phala Dhata' - meaning giver of the fruits of Karma.

Prarabdha Karma itself is determined by laws of Karma and once it has begun cannot be changed. As an analogy if a country shoots a missile on another often there are no mechanism built in to recall it. However one can try shoot down that missile.

The beliefs in Pariharams is in that spirit.

Can new Karma (Agami) be done that can help offset the results of an unfolding Prarabdha Karma? No one can prove or disprove if doing Pariharams can offset anything.

For matters of practical application I would say (and it is an opinion) that we ask if a belief in a given Pariharam is reasonable and helpful.

Astrologers are constantly coming up with new Dodhams and Pariharams to drum up new business.

Overall I would suggest (and it is an opinion) that we reject all these Pariharam and curses since they have no real basis in our knowledge part of our scripture.

You can take up daily meditation along the lines of Chapter 11 of B.Gita as an alternative. Nothing 'bad' will happen and even if some events do happen you will have the courage to meet them head on.

Our scriptures teach us about fearlessness which represent exactly opposite to what curses and pariharams promote.

Let me borrow a few quotes from Sri Vivekananda
=============
WWW.PGCKAVALI.IN - SWAMI VIVEKANANDA INSPIRATIONAL QUOTATIONS





1.BE NOT AFRIED OF ANYTHING .YOU WILL DO MARVELLOUS WORK .THE MOVEMENT YOU ARE FEAR, YOU ARE NOBODY.IT IS FEAR THAT IS THE GREAT CAUSE OF MISERYIN THE WORLD.IF IS FEARLESSNESS THAT BRINGS HEAVEN EVEN IN A MOVEMENT .THEREFORE, “ARISE, AWAKE, AND STOPE NOT TILL THE GOAL IS REACHED”


2.ALL THE POWER IS WITHIN YOU; YOU CAN DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING. BELIEVE IN THAT, DON’T BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE WEAK.STAND UP AND EXPRESS THE DIVINITY WITHIN YOU...


3.TO SUCCEED,YOU MUST HAVE TREMENDOUS PRESERANCE,TREMENDOUS WILL.’I WILL DRINK THE OCEAN’ , SAY THE PRESEVERING SOUL,’AT MY WILL MOUNTAINS WILL CRUMBLE UP’, HAVE THAT SORT OF ENERGY,THAT SORT OF WILL,WORK HARD AND YOU WILL REACH THE GOAL”


4.CONCENTRATION IS THE ESSENCE OF ALL KNOWLEDGE; NOTHING CAN BE DONE WITHOUT IT.NINETY PERCENT OF THOUGHT FORCE IS WASTED BY THEORDINARY HUMAN BEING, AND THEREFORE HE IS CONSTANTLY COMMITTING BLUDNERS; THE TRAINED MAN OR MIND NEVER MAKES A MISTAKEE


5.TEACH YOURSELVES, TEACH EVERYONE, HIS REAL NATURE, CALL UPON THE SLEEPING SOUL AND SEE HOW IT AWAKES.
POWER WILL COME, GLORY WIL COME, GOODNESS WILL COME,
PURITY WILL COME, AND EVERYTHING THAT IS EXCELLENT WILL COME,


WHEN THIS SLEEPING SOUL IS ROUSED TO SELF-CONSCIOUS ACTIVITY.


6.IF YOU REALLY WANT TO JUDGE OF THE CHARACTER OF A MAN, LOOK NOT HIS GREAT PERFORMANCES, EVERY FOOL MAY BECOME A HERO AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. WATCH A MAN DO HIS MOST COMMON ACTIONS; THOSE ARE INDEED THE THINGS WHICH WIIL TELL YOU THE REAL CHARACTER OF GREAT MAN.


7.NO ONE CAN SUFFER FOR ALL TIME.NO ONE WILL SPEND ALL HIS DAYS ON THIS EARTH IN SUFFERING.EVERY ACTION BRINGS ITS OWN RESULT, AND ONE GETS ONE’S OPPORTUNITIES ACCORDINGLY.


8.ALL THE POWERS IN THE UNIVERSE ARE ALREADY OURS.IT IS WE WHO HAVE PUT OUR HANDS BEFORE OUR EYES AND CRY THAT IT IS DARK.KNOW THAT IS NO DARKNESS AROUND US.TAKE THE HANDS AWAY AND THERE IS THE LIGHT WHICH WAS FROM THE BEGINNING. ‘WE WHO ARE FOOLS CRY THAT WE ARE WEAK, WE ARE LIONS DON’T THINK UR WEAK’


9.Take up one idea. Make that one idea your life - think of it, dream of it, live on that idea. Let the brain, muscles, nerves, every part of your body, be full of that idea, and just leave every other idea alone. This is the way to success, that is way great spiritual giants are produced.”


10.“We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act.”


11.“The goal of mankind is knowledge ... Now this knowledge is inherent in man. No knowledge comes from outside: it is all inside. What we say a man 'knows', should, in strict psychological language, be what he 'discovers' or 'unveils'; what man 'learns' is really what he discovers by taking the cover off his own soul, which is a mine of infinite knowledge.”


12.This is a great fact: strength is life; weakness is death. Strength is felicity, life eternal, immortal; weakness is constant strain and misery, weakness is death


13.Never mind failures; they are quite natural, they are the beauty of life-these failures. What would life be without them? It would not be worth having if it were not for struggles. Where would be the poetry of life? Never mind the struggles, the mistakes. I never heard a cow tell a lie, but it is only a cow-never a man. So never mind these failures, these little backslidings; hold the ideal a thousand times; and if you fail a thousand times, make the attempt once more...


14.Stand up and fight! Not one step back, that is the idea. Fight it out, whatever comes. Let the stars move from the spheres! Let the whole world stand against us! Death means only a change of garment. What of it? Thus fight! You gain nothing by becoming cowards. Taking a step backward, you do not avoid any misfortune. You have cried to all the gods in the world. Has misery ceased? The gods come to help you when you have succeeded. So what is the use? Die game. You are infinite, deathless, birth less. Because you are infinite spirit, it does not befit you to be a slave. Arise! Awake! Stand up and fight!


15.Never say, ‘no’; never say, ‘I cannot’, for you are infinite. Even time and space are as nothing compared with your nature. You can do anything and everything. You are almighty.


16.Say, ‘This misery that I am suffering is of my own doing, and that very thing proves that it will have to be undone by me alone.’ That which I created, I can demolish; that which is created by someone else, I shall never be able to destroy. Therefore, stand up, be bold, be strong. Take the whole responsibility on your own shoulders, and know that you are the creators of your own destiny. All the strength and succour you want is within ourselves.


17.Every thought that we think, every deed that we do, after a certain time becomes fine, goes into the seed form, so to speak, and lives in the fine body in a potential form, and after a time, it emerges again and bears its results. These results condition the life of man. Thus he moulds his own life. Man is not bound by any other laws excepting those which he makes for himself.


18.Do not recognize wickedness in others. Wickedness is ignorance, weakness. What is the good of telling people they are weak? Criticism and destruction are of no avail. We must give them a little higher; tell them of their own glorious nature, their birthright.


19.It is fear alone that is death. You have to go beyond all fear. So from this day, be fearless. Off at once, to lay down your life for your own liberation and for the good of others. What good is it carrying a load of bones and flesh!


20.Even the least work done for others awakens the power within. Even thinking the least amount good for others gradually instills into the heart, the strength of a lion. Get up, and put your shoulders to the wheel. How long is this life for? As you have come into the world, leave some mark behind. Otherwise, where is the difference between you and the trees and stones..


21.Be brave! Be strong! Be fearless! Once you have taken up the spiritual life, fight as long as there is any life in you. Even though you know you are going to be killed, fight till you “are killed.” Don’t die of fright. Die fighting. Don’t go down till you are knocked down.


22.The weak, the fearful, the ignorant will never reach the Atman. You cannot undo what you have done; the effect must come. Face it, but be careful never to do the same thing again. Give up the burden of all deeds to God. Give all, both good and bad. God helps those who do not help themse


23.The moment you fear, you are nobody. It is fear that is the great cause of misery in the world. It is fear that is the greatest of all superstitions. It is the fear that is the cause of our woes, and it is fearlessness that brings heaven in a moment...


OTHER
 
tksji said:

What makes us suffer is ignorance and incorrect beliefs.
Karma model is an elaborate belief system consisting of many types of Karma -
1. Sanchita Karma (which is limitless both in terms of Punya and Papa acquired due to limitless [COLOR=#000000 !important]births and deaths[/COLOR])
2. Loosely speaking a part of assigned Karma (from Sachita Karma account) to be experienced in this birth is called Prarabdha Karma . This cannot be stopped. It is described like an arrow that has left and cannot be recalled . It will fructify.
3. Agami Karma - Being 'earned' here and now that may or may not fructify in this life or may become part of the Sanchita bank account upon death
Without getting too technical for the sake of clarity, if one accepts these definitions it is not possible to do anything about Prarabdha Karma, and one can certainly 'do something' about Agami Karma.
Birth and death cycle cannot be stopped since limitless lives are needed to exhaust limitless Sanchita Karma!
So thinking that one must suffer to avoid next birth based on this model is incorrect.
So what is a way out if there is any?
Karma - both Punya and Papa are born out of ignorance of our true nature which is already not bound. Hence only Knowledge can destroy that ignorance even in this life or any future life.
To receive this knowledge preparation often requiring life time of effort is required.

Shri Sangom said:
Sometimes we do not get what we desire greatly; and sometimes we get what we do not like at all. Both are "sufferings" for us, but from the point of view of the Law of Karma, there is nothing like reward and/or punishment; everything is either Karma or its "phala".
Old people suffering a slow death is also definitely their "Karmaphala" but that is no guarantee for no further births or eternal bliss, etc. I also believe that even for people who have got Brahmajnaana, the Laws of Karma will continue to apply as rigorously as to an ignorant man. The former can make use of his knowledge to behave in this world in such a way that he/she does not accumulate too much of Karmas (good or bad). This is like say, (and this is only a rough example) an experienced and licensed electrician repairing the wiring system of a large building and somebody who has no such knowledge taking up that job; the former will be able to avoid electric shock to himself as also damage to the building due to electric fire while the latter may not be as successful. But both are equally affected by the Laws of electricity.

According to Srivaishnava sampradhaya there is a clear way out for those who are caught in the web of Sanchita, prarabda and Agaami paapas.:

If you surrender to the God He removes the effect of all these paapas and stops the cycle of birth and rebirth. That one time surrender requires a perfect understanding of the surrender process and the various angas which make it complete. Srivaishnavites believe that there are 5 angas which make the surrender complete. We have already discussed this in other threads in this site. So it is not a hopeless situation where the poor AtmA is caught in a vicious nonstop birth and death trap. Those who are interested may go and learn more about the surrender-it is called Saranagati-from a good Vaishnavite site or join the Vaishnavism Dept of Madras University as a student and study it under learned professors.
 
tksji said:



Shri Sangom said:


According to Srivaishnava sampradhaya there is a clear way out for those who are caught in the web of Sanchita, prarabda and Agaami paapas.:

If you surrender to the God He removes the effect of all these paapas and stops the cycle of birth and rebirth. That one time surrender requires a perfect understanding of the surrender process and the various angas which make it complete. Srivaishnavites believe that there are 5 angas which make the surrender complete. We have already discussed this in other threads in this site. So it is not a hopeless situation where the poor AtmA is caught in a vicious nonstop birth and death trap. Those who are interested may go and learn more about the surrender-it is called Saranagati-from a good Vaishnavite site or join the Vaishnavism Dept of Madras University as a student and study it under learned professors.

Sri Vaagmi

Thanks for sharing the SV perspective.

Some people will be able to relate to this and some may not. Some objections loosely stated are like this.

1. It will be hard to accept that a loving Isvara would put someone in this 'birth-death' cycle.. Secondly it will be even more strange for this Isvara to ask his creation to seek refuge to him so that they can get out of the cycle

2. It is hard to believe in something that we cannot understand. If I say pray to "jkghghsoioioyi1@#$$" and all your problems will be gone we cannot accept that. I could create stories and portray some imagery to gain acceptance but it is not possible to go for surrender whatever that means.

So ideas of surrender , Isvara,and Jagat all have to be understood including clarity on what problem is being solved. The whole Karma model is a belief and if we need to bring new beliefs and entity like God to resolve those imagined problems it is hard to sustain the beliefs of God for many people except with fear which is what all religions do.
 
Let me add my inputs:

In the karma theory, the soul carries the burden (previouskarma) of the past lives, which is then played out in our current life. And thenthe person adds to this either good or bad karma by his action – as explainedby others.

However there is a way to mitigate the bad karma (past orpresent) - by suffering, by not enjoying life, by charity, by serving others !!.More you suffer, you don’t enjoy your life, you give charity, you serve others,the bad karma goes out & its effect will not be felt by us. Bad incidents,accidents will not happen.

That’s why our ancient rishis did penance regularly, someof them even whipped themselves, stood on one leg for years etc…

when people enjoy their lives, they are exhausting theirGood karma. That’s why you see, many people face disasters after they haveenjoyed their life for many years or lived in peace for a decade or so !!

You will often see many people who suffer the first 50yrs, by coming up in poor families, suffering in their jobs, raising kids,& then once the kids get to their jobs, they relax & enjoy their lives.After 20/30 yrs of peace, they get some diseases & die painfully. Most of them are good people who have lived bystrong value systems, not doing any harm to others.

For eg, in one case – I know personally, a rich couplelost all their wealth in their lives due to a series of incidents – self madeor otherwise, they also lost their house, but they lived till 95 yrs withoutany health issues, they lived with their kids in rotation. Both of them neverwent to a doctor in their entire life times !!!!!

So when someone loses something which causes suffering,they lose the bad karma – so something bigger got averted. That’s why when the thiefsteals the jewels from the Brahmin, he gets eaten by a Tiger subsequently. So thethief took the bad karma from theBrahmin. !!

So now you know why live in moderation is so important !!.It is absolutely vital for our safety.

So does this work – you can actually try this yourself!!.Live your life in moderation for a few months, your current problems will getresolved, or you will get lucky / gain something.

Cheers,


 
Dear Vaagmi Sir,

The total surrender to the Almighty helps to develop the mind to accept everything for good. This 'nadappadhellAm nanmaikkE'

attitude will give peace of mind and enable us continue our life without any mental agony! I have heard many elders say, 'ellAm

''avan'' pAththuppAn' whenever they face some problems in their lives! They had at least peace of mind.
 
That’s why when the thiefsteals the jewels from the Brahmin, he gets eaten by a Tiger subsequently. So thethief took the bad karma from theBrahmin. !!

Jaykay ji,


Just a question....a Tiger becomes a man eater only when it wounded and unable to hunt as well..now coming to the Karma scenario here:


1)Who or what wounded the Tiger?? A hunter or self acquired injury?

2)When did the hunter wound the tiger..what was the Karma of the hunter that he had to wound the tiger? a Karmic debt? How did the Tiger sustain the self acquired injury and why?

3)Now..what is the Brahmin doing with jewels?? Isnt a true Brahmin not suppose to have jewels? What was the Karma of the Brahmin that he actually decided to be in possession of jewels? Why did he not follow his svadharma of not being interested in material? Why? was it his previous birth vasanas that were showing up in this birth or was he a jeevan muktha just finishing off his Prarabdha Karma and the possession of the jewels did not bind him in anyway or was he falling down his evolutionary scale by becoming materialistic?

4)Ok now the thief..why was he stealing from the Brahmin? Was is becos the Brahmin owed him something is his previous birth?


5)Now why did the tiger decide to eat the thief?? What was the Karma of the thief that was linked to the tiger? Was the thief a hunter in a previous birth that killed a tiger and gave its skin to a sage to meditate upon??


So this birth..the tiger becomes a man eater tiger....kills the thief who was a hunter in the previous life and had killed it and since the sage used the tiger skin so that means the sage too "participated" in the act of depriving the tiger of its life and skin..hence the sage was born as brahmin who lost his jewels so that he knows the pain of losing something that belongs to you..

So in this case..no one is innocent..no one steals anyone's Karma..Karma is like our own shadow.
 
Last edited:
An elderly man found a little boy torturing a worm with a stick and cautioned him that in his next birth, the boy will be born as a

worm and the worm as a boy to torture him in the same way, according to karma theory! The boy retorted with a vicious smile,

'Dear Sir! You are right but the fact is, I am taking revenge for the torture in my previous birth as a worm! :evil:
 
TODAY scanned page 5, read page 4 or 3, just below my post and i am going to say i would give DOTT category 7. initially i thought i will keep 7 for parachute, a tool someone uses for crisis intervention. but i found another number for parachute. Shall tellya Y? tom.... but i keep DOTT 8 for this one.
 
Jaykay ji,


Just a question....a Tiger becomes a man eater only when it wounded and unable to hunt as well..now coming to the Karma scenario here:


1)Who or what wounded the Tiger?? A hunter or self acquired injury?

2)When did the hunter wound the tiger..what was the Karma of the hunter that he had to wound the tiger? a Karmic debt? How did the Tiger sustain the self acquired injury and why?

3)Now..what is the Brahmin doing with jewels?? Isnt a true Brahmin not suppose to have jewels? What was the Karma of the Brahmin that he actually decided to be in possession of jewels? Why did he not follow his svadharma of not being interested in material? Why? was it his previous birth vasanas that were showing up in this birth or was he a jeevan muktha just finishing off his Prarabdha Karma and the possession of the jewels did not bind him in anyway or was he falling down his evolutionary scale by becoming materialistic?

4)Ok now the thief..why was he stealing from the Brahmin? Was is becos the Brahmin owed him something is his previous birth?


5)Now why did the tiger decide to eat the thief?? What was the Karma of the thief that was linked to the tiger? Was the thief a hunter in a previous birth that killed a tiger and gave its skin to a sage to meditate upon??


So this birth..the tiger becomes a man eater tiger....kills the thief who was a hunter in the previous life and had killed it and since the sage used the tiger skin so that means the sage too "participated" in the act of depriving the tiger of its life and skin..hence the sage was born as brahmin who lost his jewels so that he knows the pain of losing something that belongs to you..

So in this case..no one is innocent..no one steals anyone's Karma..Karma is like our own shadow.

Since there is no Like any more .. I just loved the questions ..LOL.. it is humorous too !
 
Hi Renuka,

No, the stealing is the bad karma committed by the thief.Hence as a consequence to the bad karma, he suffers an untimely & terriblefate !!

People today do not understand when they steal fromothers, they think it is no big deal. They are stealing the bad karma of the victims& the victims are liberated from their bad karma !!!!

Regards your Qs on – was the thief an hunter etc…, itdoes NOT matter. Even if the thief had a clean record, he committed a sin forwhich he is suffering now.

Why was the Brahmin carrying jewels??, he was carrying onbehalf of his King to give it to their enemy & buy truce, avoid war. The Brahminwould have suffered the same fate as the thief, had he gone to the enemy. Hisgood karma prevented that fate!!

Such is the “thiruvilayadel” of Karma / God!!!! that’s why our Rishi’s placed so much emphasison living a honest, value driven, god focused life !!!.

On the vaishnavite tradition, people are reading 1statement out of context & wrongly. Ie. Leave everything to God & gowith your life - does NOT mean, live theway you want – as opulent as you want, freak out life, commit all sins, butleave to God the Karma phala – which is not correct.

Krishna talks atlength about the path of Dharma, duties of a prince to protect its people,fight crime & evil, and most importantly how it is protecting the life ofKarna . why everyone must follow the path of Dharma, & then after followingsuch a pious life, if bad things happen, then this quote applies – leave it me/God, I will take care of it !!!.

Truly it is Karma that protects us from bad incidents !!.as I said, you can try this by living a very austere life of suffering, servingpeople, doing good always etc…, your problems will go away as mysteriously asit came !!!!

Cheers,
 
Dear Jaykay Sir,

Yours posts are interesting to read. But do you mean to say that IF people go through sufferings like starving on some

chosen days, their bad karma will be reduced? Is it such a simple math? :confused:
 
Yes, it is. Our mathematics is - quarter deducted if one realises that he has done bad deed, another quarter if he decides to do and does a prayaschitta, a quarter if he never repeats the pap karma. A quarter is still left which can be wiped out only by god's grace. Prayachitta contributes to mitigation.

Dear Jaykay Sir,

Yours posts are interesting to read. But do you mean to say that IF people go through sufferings like starving on some

chosen days, their bad karma will be reduced? Is it such a simple math? :confused:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top