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Theory of Karma

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Dear HH,

You seem to have mistaken me and just want to stick to it to showcause your talent.

Off course I would say that good qualities are defined as good souls of those who don't make their life pleasurable and successful at the cost of others and who don't make others suffer mental agony by their speach/communication by any medium etc.

But I never said that Good souls are offered only to Brahmins and by default all the brahmins are good souls and are by default destined to attain moksham.

I generally appreciate your knowledge and talent. But please don't demonstrate them at the cost of others (myself, renuka and any other member in future), by making your own claims.


Thank you..

Am very sorry to have mentioned you ravi, but wanted to give real examples, so it just came forth. It just occured to me, in a jiffy, that you had said something similar when you were new here. So just typed it away as it came. Am very sorry it has hurt you. I shall take care not to mention you. Please do not misunderstand am showing off things or any such thing please. Hope you will forgive me. I will never mention you as an example again. Am sorry.
 
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1) You are giving nirguna attributes of fullness and completeness. If so, then how does it become nir-guna?


2) If something is full and complete, then what is its quality? What makes it full and complete?


3) Is it sufficient to claim nirguna is something without satvic, rajasic and tamisic gunas? Is that sufficient to define "lack of gunas" (in nirguna) according to you ??

Someone is said to be sattvic if he has excess of sattvic qualities. Similarly someone has rajassic guna if he has excess of such qulities and so on. So in each we see some guna predominates or is in excess. But all of these seem to lack something because they still have not attained moksha. If excess of none of the gunas can get you moksha, what can? The answer is you neeed to strike a balance between the gunas so that a perfect blend of these is attained. All the right features need to come together. Juxtapose this with the term nirguna. Nirguna means lack of gunas. It can be interpreted as not being characterized or be called by a particular guna. Brahman cannot be said to be sattvic or rajassic etc. Since brahman is the source of everything including gunas, it has to possess these gunas but be in perfect balance.


4) You must define what is brahman? If brahman is omniscient and omnipotent, all powerful, then how can it be nir-guna ?

What you are defining is an omnipotent all powerful saguna brahman. But you are claiming it to be nirguna.

Then again sravna, you must remember that your knowldege domain is not advaita; because advaita's nirguna defined by Adi Shankara, is not the same, as defined by you. Therefore i suggest you please select a name for your form of philosophy.

Since nirguna state is not void but everything nirguna brahman is omniscient and omnipotent.

Can you quote anything said by sankara that my definition is contradicting his? I think I have given the natural interpretation.

The conscience that pricks you does so because it is judgemental and analytical.

This conscience understands the action was "wrong", because it analyses and judges. Only after that, it pricks. How can such a jugemental-conscience be nir-guna ? On the contrary, such a conscience has an ego, because it is analytical and judgemental.

Also Sravna, you equate nirguna with an omnipresent omniscient brahman. So, where is the connection between such a judgemental-conscience, nirguna and brahman?

Conscience is something that doesn't vary from person to person. It however seems to vary depending upon the level of evolvedness of a person exactly for the reason in such cases it is obscured. Hinduism takes this into consideration and has dharmas depending on the stage of evolution of a person.

Anyways, am surprised you define ego in such a simple and trivial manner as mere selfishness. Such an explanation would be considered very trivial by a buddhist. I suggest you please read up on the nature of ego as defined in buddhism and try to develop concepts to suit shankara's version of nirguna.

Why should I read up buddhism?! I am trying to develop a definition that is consistent with the overall philosphy of advaita and importantly which tries to address your specific queries? What details you think it lacks that it does not address your queries?

Alright, if nirguna is omniscient and omnipotent what is the necessity for it to have any more qualities at all, let alone "perfect blend of qualities"?

Further,you say "defining good qualities is simple", and that merely removing selfishness is sufficient to define good qualities. Is that correct? If so, then please let us have a list of which are "good" qualities according to you?

Though easy to define, it is difficult to list good qualities. What may be good in a situation might not be in some other case. For example lying is in general bad. But it is ok to lie in some circumstances. The general rule is always try to uphold the higher dharma in any situation. Generally it equates to not being selfish and in the other extreme not being unduly self sacrificing.
 
Am very sorry to have mentioned you ravi, but wanted to give real examples, so it just came forth. It just occured to me, in a jiffy, that you had said something similar when you were new here. So just typed it away as it came. Am very sorry it has hurt you. I shall take care not to mention you. Please do not misunderstand am showing off things or any such thing please. Hope you will forgive me. I will never mention you as an example again. Am sorry.

Dear HH,

I was very much sure of your reply with a reference. When I was new, I was not aware of the sensitivity and was not clear and elaborative in a right manner. I mentioned what I was told in a vedic discourse and I coudn't express it properly. Than, questioning the authenticity of such discourses and its validity are all another issue for extensive hot arguments.

But the thing clear to me is that, gaining Satvic qualities are must for the humans to fecilitate ourself towards moksham.
 
Someone is said to be sattvic if he has excess of sattvic qualities. Similarly someone has rajassic guna if he has excess of such qulities and so on. So in each we see some guna predominates or is in excess. But all of these seem to lack something because they still have not attained moksha. If excess of none of the gunas can get you moksha, what can? The answer is you neeed to strike a balance between the gunas so that a perfect blend of these is attained. All the right features need to come together. Juxtapose this with the term nirguna. Nirguna means lack of gunas. It can be interpreted as not being characterized or be called by a particular guna. Brahman cannot be said to be sattvic or rajassic etc. Since brahman is the source of everything including gunas, it has to possess these gunas but be in perfect balance.
If brahman possess these gunas, how can it be nirguna? Just because it does not have satva, rajasa, tamasa gunas in excess ?

Unfortunately, srvana, this point is a weak-link. You want to give attributes to your kind of brahman, and yet you do not want to call it saguna brahman. So, you need to come up with a name for such a brahman. You cannot claim it is nirguna just by postulating it does not have excess of rajas, sattva, tamas gunas.

Also, you give your kind of nirguna-brahman attributes of fullness and completeness. So you need to define what is it, that makes such a brahman full and complete.

Since nirguna state is not void but everything nirguna brahman is omniscient and omnipotent.
Alright your kind of brahman is not a void but is an omniscient and omnipotent entity.

However, advaita's nirguna-brahman is one without definable characteristics.

So, since your kind of brahman has characterisitics, please give your kind of brahman a name, so that we need not deal with advaita's nirguna-brahman anymore.

Can you quote anything said by sankara that my definition is contradicting his? I think I have given the natural interpretation.
Accoriding to Adi Shankara, Brahman "is non-conceptual and hence it is not known in the way in which other common objects are known...it is strictly beyound thought or word". This is an interesting link comparing buddhist shunyata and shankara's nirguna and kabbalah - Powered by Google Docs

Conscience is something that doesn't vary from person to person. It however seems to vary depending upon the level of evolvedness of a person exactly for the reason in such cases it is obscured. Hinduism takes this into consideration and has dharmas depending on the stage of evolution of a person.
You have not replied to the main point. So i ask the same question in a different way -- do you agree that conscience is analytical and judgemental, if it reacts to external stimuli? How can such a jugemental-conscience be your kind of nirguna, that is omniscient omnipresent brahman ? What or where is the connection between such a judgemental-conscience and your kind of omnipresent omnipotent brahman?

Here you say conscience is the same for everyone. If so, what is the quality of this unvaried conscience common in all?

Also, what are the dharmas that take into consideration depending on evolution-stage in hinduism?

Why should I read up buddhism?! I am trying to develop a definition that is consistent with the overall philosphy of advaita and importantly which tries to address your specific queries? What details you think it lacks that it does not address your queries?
The nature of ego is not as trivial as selfishness. Maybe this will help - http://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamesclairlewis.com%2Fpages%2Fmetaphysics%2Fego.html&rct=j&q=nature of ego buddhist&ei=07GJTvbMDsH5rAeM3qXtDA&usg=AFQjCNFWA570xY1rXi0bQListq7gDlcHCA&cad=rja

Without a proper description of ego, you cannot define self-importance on your yardstick of conscience.

Though easy to define, it is difficult to list good qualities. What may be good in a situation might not be in some other case. For example lying is in general bad. But it is ok to lie in some circumstances. The general rule is always try to uphold the higher dharma in any situation. Generally it equates to not being selfish and in the other extreme not being unduly self sacrificing.
This is like advice which parents give children. Unfortunately Sravna, it is far too under-developed to be called a knowledge domain of philosophy.

You say there is no standardized set of 'good qualities". Moreover, this set of good qualities can vary as per circumstances. Then is not such a nirguna-brahman / conscience, not only judgemental but also a circumstantially variable entity?

Again, you have not replied if nirguna is already omniscient and omnipotent what is the necessity for it to have any more qualities at all, let alone "perfect blend of qualities"?

Regards.
 
Dear HH,

I was very much sure of your reply with a reference. When I was new, I was not aware of the sensitivity and was not clear and elaborative in a right manner. I mentioned what I was told in a vedic discourse and I coudn't express it properly. Than, questioning the authenticity of such discourses and its validity are all another issue for extensive hot arguments.

But the thing clear to me is that, gaining Satvic qualities are must for the humans to fecilitate ourself towards moksham.
Many thanks to you Ravi for taking it sportingly. Thanks again.
 
Dear Smt.HH,

1. Tell how can anything emerge out of void if nirguna brahman is void? Are you not trying to make a literal interpretation?
2. Conscience is the universal voice existing in all of us because the self is in reality brahman. Since brahman is obscured by maya, equating to conscience obscured by ego, we seem to see that conscience varies. Conscience within us is like indicating the God within us which eventually fully emerges after the dispelling of ego or in other words after the removal of maya.
3. Omniscience and omnipotence follows because of brahman's consummate nature which is because of the perfect coming together of qualities.
4.Good qualities do vary according to a situation. That is also exactly the reason to have the perfect blend of gunas. Though lying may be a tamassic quality it may uphold dharma in some cases.
 
Dear Smt.HH,

1. Tell how can anything emerge out of void if nirguna brahman is void? Are you not trying to make a literal interpretation?
2. Conscience is the universal voice existing in all of us because the self is in reality brahman. Since brahman is obscured by maya, equating to conscience obscured by ego, we seem to see that conscience varies. Conscience within us is like indicating the God within us which eventually fully emerges after the dispelling of ego or in other words after the removal of maya.
3. Omniscience and omnipotence follows because of brahman's consummate nature which is because of the perfect coming together of qualities.
4.Good qualities do vary according to a situation. That is also exactly the reason to have the perfect blend of gunas. Though lying may be a tamassic quality it may uphold dharma in some cases.
Dear Sravna,

I will suggest we finish with post # 554 first before we proceed to this. Will answer this with brevity though. Hope you will incorporate the below points also in your reply to post # 554.

1) Nothing needs to come out of void. There is no need for anything to emerge out of void.
2) You need to define why conscience is brahman, before moving on to maya.
3) What qualities? Who gets to define these qualities? Again, if brahman is omniscient and omnipresent, or having such attributes, it is not nirguna.
4) If you decide you want to define good qualities and that too based on circumstances, then you are judgemental. Such a judgemental-conscience cannot be nirguna brahman.

Thanks.
 
1) Nothing needs to come out of void. There is no need for anything to emerge out of void.

Then what is the source of the three gunas?

2) You need to define why conscience is brahman, before moving on to maya.

OK call conscience as brahman or as the voice of brahman. I think you are aware that according to advaita, atman is brahman and that brahman is veiled by maya. I think mentioning maya here lets you get a better picture what I am trying to say.

3) What qualities? Who gets to define these qualities? Again, if brahman is omniscient and omnipresent, or having such attributes, it is not nirguna.

omniscience, omnipotence follows from the nirguna nature. But I think we first settle the issue of what nirguna means.

4) If you decide you want to define good qualities and that too based on circumstances, then you are judgemental. Such a judgemental-conscience cannot be nirguna brahman.

Being judgemental indicates subjectivity and is not defined on the basis of the circumstances. The important point is to uphold the dharma and that implies objectivity and is farthest from being judgemental.

Smt HH, I have picked out and have expressed my views on what I think are salient to our discussion. If you think I have left out something important please do point it out.
 
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Dear HH,

You seem to have mistaken me and just want to stick to it to showcause your talent.

Off course I would say that good qualities are defined as good souls of those who don't make their life pleasurable and successful at the cost of others and who don't make others suffer mental agony by their speach/communication by any medium etc.

But I never said that Good souls are offered only to Brahmins and by default all the brahmins are good souls and are by default destined to attain moksham.

I generally appreciate your knowledge and talent. But please don't demonstrate them at the cost of others (myself, renuka and any other member in future), by making your own claims.


Thank you..


Well said.
Some times the viciousness of attack and zeal of the opposition is driving many good people like tbs, and Nacci to name some, leaving the site.
 
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Well said.
Some times the viciousness of attack and zeal of the opposition is driving many good people like tbs, and Nacci to name some, leaving the site.

prasad,

i would like to object to this post of yours.

no one member drives any other member out of this forum. every one of us, have as much right to stay here, with praveen alone, having the
right to throw out someone. that privilege he has because he owns the forum, but if he does something like that, i assure you, he will be
deluged with protests.

every one of us has much right, within the constitution of this forum, to stay and bold ourselves. proudly and rightfully so.

so, for you to accuse happy hindu or such, to be instrumental in driving out some other member, is not plain right. they left on their own accord.

i am not sure if nacchinarkiniyan or tbs have left. or taken a sabbattical. it really does not matter. it is none of my business. none of yours
either. to mention here, that they have left because of other members, is not doing fairness to those who are still here.

there are options. you can avoid or not comment on happy's postings. you can deny it. you can remain silent. if those posting offend you, you
can bring it to praveen's attention, with no guarantee that it will be heeded. praveen looks at the big pix, and hopefully your hurt ego is not
going to be a deciding factor in shutting someone out. for if a precedence of this sort is set, then, it is going to be a routine, that a threat of
a member to quit, is enough, to eunuch the views of someone else. not fair.

if nacchi left, it is of his own accord. as an admirer of nacchi, i will miss him. on joining the forum, i too used to think like you. that the good
people should band together, to prevent, the bad from taking over. since then i have learned. good or bad, depends on where you stand in
the cardinal point at this instance. my cardinals have moved. yesterday's bad, may not look so bad today.

so if nacchi left, it is of his own accord. maybe he will be back. maybe he wont. but it is not due to someone else's action. it is his own. newton,
is proved right, here.

hope this explains.

:)
 
Then what is the source of the three gunas?
Here you are speaking of creationism.

In your concept, nirguna brahman is the creator or a point from which gunas emanate. This is in sharp contrast with advaita.

To advaitins, nirguna brahman has no relation to the universe, while saguna brahman is the creator, has attributes and various states of being. But the Advaitin Sadhaka seeks to dissolve his self in nirguna.

When you meditate, your mind goes blank spaced out, some may experience this as a 'vast expanse'; while some may not be aware of anything at all.

Without realising how much time passed by you will experience this 'blanked' out state, until your body starts giving trouble, like numbing sesation in the leg. But after a while the brain stops reacting to such sensations as it become more and more absorbed into the blank-ness.

Without realsing your breathing may become extremely slow. It may even get stopped for a long time as awareness of breath also become lost. And that's it. That's dissolution. You have dissolved your mind and senses.

This blank state or nirguna does not seek to create gunas. Why shoud it? Instead it is seeking to get rid of its gunas, and merge into emptiness of eternity. This is nirguna -- emptiness. No attributes exist here.

But before you start, as a sadhaka, you may invoke saguna brahman (the one with attributes). Some sadhakas choose the destructing principle of Kali, Shiva or any istha deva, to guide. Some invoke the creation principle of Vishnu, to create the ability in them to merge into an limitless expanse.

If a sadhaka feels anger can help destroy gunas and blank out the mind, then s/he could choose Ugra-Narayana, as ishta devata. Yes, even anger can be permitted by some siddha gurus in the rudra and/or ugra amsam / aspect; as it is beleived to help faster progression (by exhausting and draining out the mind).

There is simply no barrier on which principle aspect of emotion you choose and the ishta devata. If you do not want an ishta-devata, you can choose your guru as your saguna guide also.

Here you will invoke aspects of saguna brahman, similarly how you seek blessing of your mother before you start anything. Some may want to venerate the Saguna in idol form. Some visuaise Saguna in mind and do not require the idol form.

In Shankara's advaita, nirguna is purely nondual and is just "itself" -- one in which a sadhaka seeks to dissolve himself.

But your view is totally different. I am not able to call your version of brahman as Nirguna Brahman. Instead lets call it SAB (SravnA's Brahman). Your SAB has a "balance" of qualities and is even the creator of gunas.

Before you move on to anything else, you need to properly define your SAB. If it is creator of gunas, then what is this SAB's principal creative force, from where does this creative force come, how does it function, and so on.

OK call conscience as brahman or as the voice of brahman. I think you are aware that according to advaita, atman is brahman and that brahman is veiled by maya. I think mentioning maya here lets you get a better picture what I am trying to say.
Lets leave maya aside for now. Your primary step is to define SAB properly. If you want to call conscience as SAB, the you will need to addrress problems mentioned in point 4 below

omniscience, omnipotence follows from the nirguna nature. But I think we first settle the issue of what nirguna means.
Please explain "nirguna-nature"; and how can omnipotence and omniscience come from nirguna nature? And who gets to define these qualities?

IMO you cannot call SAB nirguna. Unless you want to challenge Shankara's bhasya on Brahma Sutra or any of his Shlokas, Sayings, etc, and postulate that his attributeless nirguna is faulty.

Being judgemental indicates subjectivity and is not defined on the basis of the circumstances. The important point is to uphold the dharma and that implies objectivity and is farthest from being judgemental.

Smt HH, I have picked out and have expressed my views on what I think are salient to our discussion. If you think I have left out something important please do point it out.
Sravna, i have explained nirguna from the meditation pov. Without using complicated advaita terms. This i hope will help you understand what is nirguna practically.

If you call conscience as brahman (as you did in point 2), then your SAB will be a judgemental-consience or judgemental-brahman, whose judgements even vary based on circumstances.

In such case, SAB would be a highly judgemental, and egoistical brahman. If it has to analyse and judge, it cannot have a "balance" of gunas. Unfortuantely, you define such an SAB as full and complete, omniscient and omnipotent, which is illogical.

Sravna, must say i have moved out of philosophy. So i may not able to help you much, though i can provide some pointers how you cud improvise on SAB (even if you do not select specific texts as your pramana). I don't know about you and your interest in advaita, but i gave up philosophy becoz i felt to tide over life one requires something that can offer solace, comfort and above all the promise of hope.

Am put off by reform movements in jainism, casteism in hinduism, too much empasis on philosophy in buddhism, insufficient ontologies in sikhism...there is not a single perfect religion on earth. There is no perfect philosophy either.

I invoke some deities, keep my offerings very simple, am enthralled by chants and hymns, and after its all done, i try to attempt the limitless expanse of the mind. That's all.

I prefer being a tribal having no religion, no text corpus, no grand philosophies, nothing to loose, nothing to gain.

Regards.
 
Dear Smt. HH,

Let us go step by step.

Gunas originate from saguna brahman and not from nirguna brahman according to you. But saguna brahman itself is a form of nirguna brahman. So it has to get its qualities from nirguna brahman. Shiva and vishnu for example are invested with certain qualities for doing their job of destruction and preotection respectively. But the root is nirguna brahman and their qualities have to be derived from it. So you cannot deny the conclusion that nirguna does not imply lack of gunas. That I would say is a simplistic and superficial interpretation.

Once you reply to this we will go to the other points.
 
Dear HH,

You wrote:
there is not a single perfect religion on earth. There is no perfect philosophy either.

You have a point but may be we are not the prefect Bhakthas either and for perfection we may want to contemplate on the Perfect that is:


Om purnam-adah purnam-idam
purnaat purnam-udacyate.
purnasya purnam-aadaaya,
purnam-eva-avashishyate



Over to you and Sravna.I am following closely your interesting debate.
 
Dear Smt. HH,

Let us go step by step.

Gunas originate from saguna brahman and not from nirguna brahman according to you. But saguna brahman itself is a form of nirguna brahman. So it has to get its qualities from nirguna brahman. Shiva and vishnu for example are invested with certain qualities for doing their job of destruction and preotection respectively. But the root is nirguna brahman and their qualities have to be derived from it. So you cannot deny the conclusion that nirguna does not imply lack of gunas. That I would say is a simplistic and superficial interpretation.

Once you reply to this we will go to the other points.

Dear Sravna,

I agree with you here that Nirguna does not mean absence of Gunas.
May I add that Nirguna is a state beyond Gunas where the Gunas do not exert their effects and not to be mistaken as lying dormant or inactive.


Just a point I might want to differ.You said that
But saguna brahman itself is a form of nirguna brahman. So it has to get its qualities from nirguna brahman.

Here you are giving attributes to Nirguna Brahman which I beg to differ.
May be we can think about it this way..Saguna Brahman is the Manifestation of Nirguna Brahman and this Manifestation comes with Gunas.

After all in Hinduism there is no Creation in the technical point of view but rather everything being a Manifestation since we still go by the believe that everything is Ajah(unborn).
When its Ajah how can we have creation? Hence only manifestation of the already "present".

Example: a tree arises from a seed.The tree was already "present" in the seed just waiting to be manifested.
 
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Here you are giving attributes to Nirguna Brahman which I beg to differ.
May be we can think about it this way..Saguna Brahman is the Manifestation of Nirguna Brahman and this Manifestation comes with Gunas.

Dear Renuka,

Very well put.

But my point is the basis of such gunas has to lie in nirguna brahman. For example when some parts make up a whole the whole has its own nature. If in some way the parts can be separated, the parts may have their own nature or qualities but they didn't come from void. It came from the whole. Similarly by the application of maya the gunas manifest but the basis of such gunas has to be in nirguna brahman.
 
Here you are giving attributes to Nirguna Brahman which I beg to differ.
May be we can think about it this way..Saguna Brahman is the Manifestation of Nirguna Brahman and this Manifestation comes with Gunas.

Dear Renuka,

Very well put.

But my point is the basis of such gunas has to lie in nirguna brahman. For example when some parts make up a whole the whole has its own nature. If in some way the parts can be separated, the parts may have their own nature or qualities but they didn't come from void. It came from the whole. Similarly by the application of maya the gunas manifest but the basis of such gunas has to be in nirguna brahman.

Dear Sravna,

I get what you mean.I am going to summarize what you just wrote:


Om purnam-adah purnam-idam
purnaat purnam-udacyate.
purnasya purnam-aadaaya,
purnam-eva-avashishyate


addition:may be the answer lies in the Geeta;

Know that the three Gunas, Saattvika, Raajasika, and Taamasika, also emanate from Me. I am not in (or dependent on) the Gunas, but the Gunas are in (or dependent on) Me. 7.12
 
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namaste everyone.

A believer, non-believer, and an atheist-scientist die and meet in their afterlife. What could be their chat if they were to continue the discussion in this thread?

Believer: I had a good chance in my last life; should have done much better spiritually and accumulated good karma; instead, I was wavering, because of the mAyA of science, and was more materialistic than necessary, and that has increased my desires and spoiled my chances of getting a rebirth in an environment conducive to spiritual progress.

Non-believer: I still see no God around here, so I am right to that extent. I have the satisfaction of having lived a fairly good life, enjoying the comforts of science as well as doing service. I wouldn't now mind a second birth if I can be born in a similar environment.

Atheist-scientist: I can't believe it! I have no brain, no nervous system, no genes and yet I can live and think! Hey, if your karma theory be efficacious, then I would surely be reborn as a scientist in a similar environment and continue my researches in science and atheism. Meantime, let me haunt the science labs and see how they are doing. Like I said earlier, God is only man-made, see, you don't find him even after dying! I might have a problem though: I have left my DNA for cloning, and by the time I am reborn, my clone is sure to be alive and kicking. I wonder what that kind of life would be: having two identical personalities outside me, or more precisely, an identical single personality in two physical bodies!

Back to the physical reality, the believer considers such afterlife happening as possible and decides to be cautious about his life. The non-believer is cool and indifferent because he is sure about the non-existence of God. The scientist vehemently dismisses it as a useless fantasy. Their life goes on, with these three kinds of beliefs about the question of afterlife and rebirth, whose answer will be known only when a person becomes disembodied.
 
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Dear Smt. HH,

Let us go step by step.

Gunas originate from saguna brahman and not from nirguna brahman according to you.
Sorry this is not according to me. This is according to advaitins. I have a serious doubt -- have you read Shankara's bhasya on Brahmasutra or anything authored by the Shankara advaitin group? What are your views on advaita and nirguna brahman which the Shankara advaitins espouse?

But saguna brahman itself is a form of nirguna brahman. So it has to get its qualities from nirguna brahman. Shiva and vishnu for example are invested with certain qualities for doing their job of destruction and preotection respectively. But the root is nirguna brahman and their qualities have to be derived from it. So you cannot deny the conclusion that nirguna does not imply lack of gunas. That I would say is a simplistic and superficial interpretation.

Once you reply to this we will go to the other points.
How do you define Saguna as a form of nirguna? How can saguna get its qualities from nirguna? By what method?

If you are talking about Shiva and Vishnu, then they are Saguna Brahman creators in hindu philosophical concepts. But they were not created by Nirguna Brahman.

If you claim they do, then you must explain how did nirguna-brahman create Shiva and Vishnu?

You cannot insist nirguna has gunas, just by claiming the root of Shiva and Vishnu is nirguna. Where is the connection?

A advaitin sadhaka seeks to dissolve in nirguna-brahman. He does not seek to become saguna brahman or a creator. His aim is the void in which all his karmas, senses, everything, dissolves.

Nirguna of Shankara's advaita is attributeless. If you are challenging it, you need to write corpus literature against it. If not in sanskrit, then atleast in english. And maybe also present it to the acharyas in Sringeri.

For now, your concepts are very primitive and very under-developed. You need to develop it a great lot more.
 
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Dear Smt. HH,

At least you have granted me that there is scope for development of my argument:) Otherwise I think we are are not making a lot of progress. Thanks anyway for putting forth your perspectives.
 
But my point is the basis of such gunas has to lie in nirguna brahman. For example when some parts make up a whole the whole has its own nature. If in some way the parts can be separated, the parts may have their own nature or qualities but they didn't come from void. It came from the whole. Similarly by the application of maya the gunas manifest but the basis of such gunas has to be in nirguna brahman.
If the basis of gunas lie in 'something' then it is not nirguna anymore.

If your kind of nirguna requires maya to create gunas then it is not an omnipotent brahman. It is so powerless that it depends on maya to help it manifest things..

It is not sufficient to merely claim parts come from a 'whole'. However, this can be agreed upon due to the upanishadic phrase purnamadah purnamidam....But the moment you call this kind of brahman as your conscience, then you reach a deadend.

If this 'whole' brahman, which as the conscience in humans, is judgemental, egoistical, analytical, and yet omnipotent and omniscient, then i wud call it a chapala-brahman (fickle-brahman) or svarthin-brahman (selfish-brahman), not nirguna brahman.
 
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If the basis of gunas lie in 'something' then it is not nirguna anymore.

If your kind of nirguna requires maya to create gunas or something then it is not an omnipotent brahman. So powerless that it depends on maya to help it manifest things..

It is not sufficient to merely claim parts come from a 'whole'.

If this 'whole' brahman, which as the conscience in humans, is judgemental, egoistical, analytical, and yet omnipotent and omniscient, then i wud call it a chapala-brahman (fickle-brahman) or svarthin-brahman (selfish-brahman), not nirguna brahman.

Dear Smt.HH,

You are free to have your own reasoning and views. Call brahman whatever name you want to call it. But I have given up. Thanks
 
Dear Smt. HH,

At least you have granted me that there is scope for development of my argument:) Otherwise I think we are are not making a lot of progress. Thanks anyway for putting forth your perspectives.

Dear Smt.HH,

You are free to have your own reasoning and views. Call brahman whatever name you want to call it. But I have given up. Thanks
Dear Srvana,

It may be a good idea for you to throughly examine Shankara's conceptualization of nirguna, before you think of challenging it in any form.

I suspect you have not read Shankara's works. And hence any discussion becomes meaningless in that aspect.

Anyways, thanks for the discussions. I wish you the very best in developing your ontologies.

Regards.
 
Dear Srvana,

It may be a good idea for you to throughly examine Shankara's conceptualization of nirguna, before you think of challenging it in any form.

I suspect you have not read Shankara's works. And hence any discussion becomes meaningless in that aspect.

Anyways, thanks for the discussions. I wish you the very best in developing your ontologies.

Regards.

OK. Thanks:)
 
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