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Is reconciliation possible

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All Friends,
Firstly, I admit that I have not understood the topic & the ultimate outcome of the opinions expressed here, vis a-vis the points raised by the initiator. After reading various topics in this site, being new, having entered only on 28/8/2011, let me record my feelings in simple language about the Brahmins of to-day. They comprise of men & women in the age group of 60 plus , call them the older generation & the second vital group ranging from , say 25 to m50 years of age.

Why these 2 groups ? Because, the First one have lived their life as it excisted in Forties to ,say eighties.. The second are currently living in modern age of development, from eighties to-date.
I would like to give my experiences of the first category in some detail & then go to the second. All he members of this forum are , first request to express their acceptance of these 2 categories, before I could write my opinion on the first .
Thanks

Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan )

This
 
KB, it really does not matter what you call me, AB, Brahmin-bsasher, neo-NB, etc., etc. None of these epithets really speaks to the points raised. Even when you think you are trying to "expose" whatever that may be, you only reveal you have not understood the issues involved. Whether this is deliberate or unwitting, only you know.

Now, I am going to try to refocus the arguments to the points raised, and you may yet again choose to selectively misinterpret and attack me, that is your choice.


கால பைரவன்;96203 said:
My criticisms (or attacks in Nara's opinion) are based on what others write here. Greedy brahmins, sinful brahmins, liar brahmins, supremacist brahmins - these are all attacks. I am merely characterizing those who indulge in such attacks as anti-brahmins.
KB, if you think these words were used without merit, you must challenge those who used them contemporaneously. Letting time pass by and then gratuitous characterizing everyone who disagree with you with a broad brush without naming any of them is silly.

For a person with such strong aversion to brahmin identity, I do not understand why such a hue and cry is raised about being called a neo-non-brahmin. One would think it would be lapped-up without any questioning.
KB, what we want to call ourselves is our business, not yours. This is really not a difficult concept to understand.


Perhaps, generalizing was a mistake. I should have qualified it. In this forum, hate-mongering is directed only against brahmins. People are normal, otherwise. There, qualified it!
??? I really don't understand what this is supposed to be.


Nara had already written that to be a brahmin is to associate with supremacist ideology. No wishy-washy statement. No qualifications. Clear as a crystal! Then who are these ordinary, run-of-the-mill brahmins that he is worried about? He could not write three sentences without being inconsistent; then he accuses others of desperation.
KB, you always pick and choose parts of what I say, misquote it or misinterpret, or over interpret what I am saying, and make charges out of plain cloth. whether deliberate or unwitting, I don't know. I am sure I can't convince you, so let me try to explain further for a neutral reader.

Here is what I said:
  1. Brahmanism is a religion/ideology based on dharmashastras and it is undeniable that supremacist thinking is an essential part of this ideology.
  2. To be a brahmin is to associate with this ideology.
  3. It is people who continue to harbor and nurture separatists and supremacist feelings vis-a-vis the rest of the society are the worst enemies of ordinary, run-of-the-mill Brahmins.
To understand these three points we need to keep in mind that [1] and [2] were in response to some vague charge from KB about Brahmin caste and supremacist nature of brahminism and [3] was about a completely different charge of his that we are all pretending to be well-wishers of the "community". KB, willfully or not, conflates these issues to misrepresent what I am saying as an inconsistency and the jalra crowd is out in full force with well-nursed old vendetta.

Neutral people with no hidden agenda or vendetta, can see there is no inconsistency among the three points. To explain further, it is undeniable that Brahminism is a supremacist ideology [1], and to be a Brahmin is to associate with the supremacist ideology of Brahminism [2]. Now, [3] does not free the run-of-the-mill Brahmins from this, only that they don't think about these things as they are bombarded with many self-serving arguments from some about how great Brahminism is and how victimized they are. People like KB and his jalra gang want to perpetuate this ignorance. This is truly detrimental to the so called community, and that is why I think they are the worst enemies of the "Brahmins" -- கூட இருந்தே குழிபறிக்கிற kind.

People like me want to shine the bright light of critical understanding so that the ordinary and not very engaged nominal Brahmins can fully appreciate the true nature of Brahminsim and the speciousness of arguments presented to perpetuate their supremacist feeling on one-hand and the victimization mind-set on the other. We want to expose the fact that such thinking will only lead them to even more misery. So, those who want to educate and free the run-of-the-mill Brahmins from the clutches of Brahminism are the true friends of these people.

The kind of change we are advocating is already gathering momentum. It is not going to be long before critical mass is achieved. Those who want to live in the fantasy world of Brahmin superiority and victimhood will be brushed aside by the force of history. Those who can safely get with the program can live a happy and fulfilling life. I will leave it to the readers to decide who speaks of reality, who has the best interest of the so called community.

Cheers!
 
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rishi,

here nobody asks, and no one gives, 'permission' or acceptance'.

please go ahead and write what you feel.

let us hear you.. :)
 
Here is what I said:
1. Brahmanism is a religion/ideology based on dharmashastras and it is undeniable that supremacist thinking is an essential part of this ideology.
2. To be a brahmin is to associate with this ideology.
3. It is people who continue to harbor and nurture separatists and supremacist feelings vis-a-vis the rest of the society are the worst enemies of ordinary, run-of-the-mill Brahmins.
Cheers!


For points 1,2:


You are not to be blamed, 90% of us are brainwashed and confused by the events of our history. History that we read from our school books and the curriculum also contains lies, propaganda, political trickery from our corrupt leaders. Plus, pseudo science and lack of Nyaya (logic and critical thinking) in our curriculam takes its own toll. Unless, we are taught the real History and the purport of our Scriptures
(not just the dharma-shAstras), we cannot clear our mis-conceptions and
be brought into the fold of reconciliation.


1. The first step would be to incite different events in the history, where all of us have been tricked by the vitanda-vAdis who always were rajasic (greedy inspite of being helped) and tamasic( ignorant in overpowering and colonizing others). There
were also cases where people carried away by false status, belonging to all varnas. Post-Independence itself have revived such status issues. So, just brooding over those issues, is simply wasting our time and leaves us less room/time to educate our next generations. If people cannot be convinced on the real intent of our dharma, just ignore them.

2. For others, they should make a sincere effort in reading our philosophies and commentaries on our scriptures, quoting the original text/verses rather than just parroting what we know or heard. This gives us more insight for exploration and clearing our mis-conceptions.

3. Rather than going by the 'neti neti' approach of reductions or the scientific approach of deductions to know the higher truth or purpose, which would instead render us into an infinite regress (and take many lives to evolve), we should take the global approach of principles (like good, bad and worst actions) and eliminate those actions that are not required though desirous. Gita has it clearly.

4. Being nice or appealing to the society or even to our children will allure us to their futile attitudes, instead just correct them when wrong and bring them to our fold. This is exactly how our ancestors brought the neighbouring nations into our knowledge/dharma fold. But we fell trap to those illogic in order to appease, of-course survival (from moghul/british), we simply broke. Rather than following our religion superficially, lets follow our shAstrAs with clear understanding and conviction, and be a good example to our children and the neighbours. We, Brahmins should become the BEACON OF Light/Knowledge for the NBs but not fight for our rights as someone suggested. Assume, If we start a NB forum and explain the Gita clearly, 90% of them would follow that sincerely, but 90% of Brahmins would still be arguing and disperse without achieving anything. False Ego/Pride is more dangerous than Ignorance. This is exactly why we have more Hare-krishnAs following GitA's principles than our own kind. We neither read science nor logic nor scriptures properly.

For point 3:

Freeing oneself from varnAsrama-dharma, is like escaping the personal duties.
I think , you have grosssly mis-understood varnAsrama as caste-discrimination.
Brahmins (as a whole) have never discriminated others by caste except rare personal incidences. The whole sudra/dalit system was totally mis-used by our sad
history of invasions, suffering, desperate attempt for revival and some cunning
elements of survival.

Rather than blaming one community or other, any one suffered in famines, bloodshed, continuous on-slaught of one's self-respect and survival in our bloody history
were the circumstances to be blamed the most. This comes from the stupidity and
mis-organization else-where.

Your idea of making India an atheistic nation is also not plausible, as most people are religious by nature. If we get rid of reason/dharma based disciplines in hinduism, we will be caught in the deep well of islamization. We were 1% islam in 1900, but now have 30% minority. A handful atheists cannot hold the religious, don't lead the current valueless India into a sharia based arab land. The only fair alternative, is to bring back a Value-based system.
 
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....In simple terms, some want hinduism/sanatana dharma to be replaced by other religions ...
Why would any rational person do that, replace one silly superstition with another equally silly superstition?


...and brhminism/brahmins to be eradicated;
A small correction -- Brahminism eradicated, and Brahmins made into erstwhile Brahmins -- yes of course.

...this battle had been going on for thousands of years; so there is nothing new.
Finally, the establishment power is not with Brahminism and the thousands of years of struggle against it is going to be over soon, success is finally at hand.

Cheers!
 
KB,

in my post #56, the essence of my reply to your charges of folks like me, for anti brahminism and associated beliefs, i request you to address this query of mine,which you might have overlooked.

ie what defines a 'brahmin' today. and how different your own practices are from that of your great grandfather.

thank you.

I did not overlook your point and I did answer this in my post.

I accepted that brahmins are not a monolithic entity.

There are lots of differences among them. Should somebody be excommunicated on account of these differences? I did not say so. However, a person who categorically states that he wishes to see that the brahmin community ceases to exist cannot also claim that he is a well wisher of the community. What is so hard to understand?
 
....You are not to be blamed, 90% of us are brainwashed and confused by the events of our history...
Govinda, come on man, why must you do this? Now I have to show you that you are not even getting brainwashed properly by your own superstitious stuff. From what you have been writing so far I take it that you subscribe to the religion of Vaideekam. Now, the most basic doctrinal concept of Vaideeka matham is body is material and inconsequential, and self is outside of it and precious. Considering what you say, here, excerpted below, do you, or do you not believe this BG assertion?

"We are definitely significant and higher intellectuals than ants
"

By we, as a true follower of Vaideeka matham, you must mean the Jeeva, not the body. Then, when you say you are more significant than the jeeva residing in an ant, are you not committing the cardinal confusion of deha/atma bramai?

You talk about BG but yet make this fundamental error, how come? Let the brainwashing be complete Govinda, don't hold back just a little, if you want to hold back, I wish you would go all the way, reject the whole invisible pink unicorn, and you will feel free of a great burden.

I realize that you are not going to do that.

Govinda, I think we reside in two different planets. I promise to stay out of your way if you stay clear of General Discussion or other forums where challenging superstitions is permitted.

very best to you ....

p.s.
Your idea of making India an atheistic nation is also not plausible,
No, I will be satisfied if Indians reject superstitions of all kinds, that is enough for me. I am also aware that even this is a pipe dream given the reverence even highly educated people show to petty godmen of many different stripes.
 
The term "self-loathing" brahmin riles many members here.

Members, who are accused thus, fiercely oppose usage of this term. According to them, they are critics and they do not indulge in hate-mongering.

But their posts often betray their hate.

Let me give one example. One poster in trying to define a brahmin said:

for starters, i think there is a big difference of opinion here as to what defines a brahmin today. i have repeatedly stated, that from beef eating money sankar ayyar to the kanchi mutt whose is fighting a murder charge, and everyone of us in between, are in the eyes of the goi 'paarppaans'.


These are the examples that he comes up with. An example of a person who eats beef, an orthodox guru who is charged with murder and then the gleeful usage of the term paarppaans. This is equivalent to referencing jihadi Ajmal Kasab and hindutva-loving Abbas Naqvi to bring forth the differences among thulu****!

Would not a simple "According to GOI, brahmin is a caste label determined by/at one's birth" suffice?

These cannot be merely dismissed as shenanigans or innuendos, because they are being used unabated. Subtle yet powerful.

Some members want others to introspect their lives. These very same members do not even introspect their own behavior in this forum.
 
All Friends,
Firstly, I admit that I have not understood the topic & the ultimate outcome of the opinions expressed here, vis a-vis the points raised by the initiator. After reading various topics in this site, being new, having entered only on 28/8/2011, let me record my feelings in simple language about the Brahmins of to-day. They comprise of men & women in the age group of 60 plus , call them the older generation & the second vital group ranging from , say 25 to m50 years of age.

Why these 2 groups ? Because, the First one have lived their life as it excisted in Forties to ,say eighties.. The second are currently living in modern age of development, from eighties to-date.
I would like to give my experiences of the first category in some detail & then go to the second. All he members of this forum are , first request to express their acceptance of these 2 categories, before I could write my opinion on the first .
Thanks

Rishikesan (A. Srinivasan )

This

Shri Rishi,

As Shri Kunjuppu has said already, there is no need for "permission" to put forth your views. Please go ahead.

The topic here, as I understand it, is can we have a brahmin society in Tamil Nadu which feels that it is ostracized and belittled/ridiculed by others, other castes? Hence, how can we bring about a reconciliation between the brahmins living in Tamil Nadu and the rest (all non-brahmin) population of the state?
 
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IMHO,the unity among all Hindus is very much necessary as Hindu society is being attacked both by insiders who call themselves Hindus,but try to weaken the Hindu Society and by outsiders.
I request all the members to go through the messages in 'twitter'from one "
Zaid Hamid"
twitter.com/zaidzamanhamid/status/111522998804156416
The gist of the message is"This message must reach every Hindu in the world,especially Pandits.On the sunnah of RASUL ALLAH(sm)We........
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. 008 on the subject"We call Hindus to Islam"
(ZAID HAMID)
The powerful speech by Mrs.Radha Rajan for 'Nationalist India" is very relevant
in the context of assault on Hindu Society by other religious(powerful) Groups and by
the socalled intelligentia among Hindus.
You can hear her speech http://video.google.com/videoplay? docid=6864335520571762844#
Ps.I do not blindly subscribe to any philosophy or any ideology but support the view/arguments when I consider
that there is justice in the arguments/views.
 
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Hi KB,

Sir I think you are assuming many things here without answering my specific questions. Let me pray, whittle it down to one set of related queries where tambrams have changed their practice over the century.

your great grandfather, might want to call you, based on his values, as a 'neo non-brahmin', because you dont do sandhyavandhanam, wear a uchu-kudumi or shave your whole body every amavasya or shave the hair of any female unfortunate enough to be widowed in your family. what do you say for that? pray also note, me or any of our ‘ilk’ have not called you names like ‘neo non brahmin’ or ‘self loathing brahmin’.

Personally, I always, would like to separate the writer from his views. I may hate the views, but I would like to think, I respect and like the writer. Which I do, towards you, whether it be reciprocated or not, is immaterial.

I do object to name calling, only because, it does not put me in a bad light. Only you, and in a way, unable to come up with cogent reasons for terming me ‘anti Brahmin’, you are not able to come up with any more reasons as to why I should be anti Brahmin, and not you.

To me, I think, you are anti Brahmin, for in sticking to bankrupt values, like exclusivity and sense that tambrams are superior to other tamil groups, an ‘othippO’ attitudes towards other castes. These type of values, in today’s world, will not carry any weight. Our youth, by and large, are moving in an integrated world, where their life and career are dependent on other castes and religions. Any feeling of dislike or disparagement, comes through to their own disaster.

Once again, I ask you to reply to that query above in italics. And also, point out, 3 values where you are proud to be a tambram, and which you think are foundations of the same, and at the same time, you find me actively opposing it.

For my part, I have clearly told you, what aspects of brahminism, I think are outdated, unfair and to the detriment of our faith in the long run. Afaic I think, it is me who is more concerned about the future of tambram as a community, and Hinduism as a faith, while those who are stuck with values of exclusivity and separateness, are ultimately self destructing our way of life.

KB I am calling you 'antibrahmin casteist racist bigoted' person. Because that is what your writings show. And none of those are worth their weight in the bits and bites that are formed on your screen.

adolf hitler at the end of his third reich, had a plan 'gotterdamerung'. since he could not keep the 'purity' and supremacy of the german race, he would rather self destruct and destroy the entire germany and german race, rather than live in accommodation with the rest of the world in harmony. KB your attitude sounds more like hitler and his concept of gotterdamerung. how can you hope to coexist in the multipolar world when you are screaming insults at your own brethren for supposed transgressions?

Thank you.
 
Dear Krishnamurthy Sir,

Nationalism is a concept that should be based on the love of the nation.

If it is based on the love of religion, sooner or later it will become fundamentalism.

This is exactly what ails islam and christianity -- in both religions fundamentalist have carved a niche for themselves. We cannot allow hinduism to be drawn into the same muck.

One must note that fundamentalists are often intellectuals, the clergy, and such like; who are well versed in religious aspects of their religion and seek to propagate the same.

There were and are far too many missionary attacks on India -- both islamic and christian. However, the solution is not hindu nationalism or counter-nationalism-based-on-religion.

We need to fight against fundamentalism by involving moderates of all religions.

It must also be remembered that Hindu-nationalism and hindutva are concepts that will be well-received only by those who did not bear the brunt of casteism.
 
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This thread, as I understand it, is about reconciliation between TBs and the rest of the Tamil society. Please see OP:

"my aim is to establish a equal and just society where no child/children feels unloved, unwanted and unprotected.

i would love to see a society which thrives on mutual support and respect. what can we do to attain that state and what do you think the obstacles are..."


According to me the above OP itself rests on a separatist feeling, a feeling that we TBs are not considered "by them" as part of them, etc. This betrays the typical Tabra mentality of the rest of the Tamil people ostracizing us and so on. Anyway you interpret it, whether through the (blindfolded) contemporary history (as KB indicates above) route of EVR>Anna>DK>DMK>MK, or just plain socio-economic basis of today, the one message that is sought to be conveyed is that the blame is on them and not at all on us.

To me this appears as a mere continuation of the separatist mentality that TBs have had for thousands of years (though some of our members are, as usual, prone to bring in immediately a few examples of isolated and personal cases where the tabras mingled with the lowest of castes in performing some agricultural activities in some village, or the absolute peace and harmony (superficial?) which prevailed in some agraharam or the other and the NBs living all around, etc.). It will be difficult to find Tamil Brahmin society of those times anywhere in Tamil Nadu treating the non-brahmins as just as much Tamil people as the brahmins themselves were, the same way the OP tries to express the yearning for a reconciliation today to be possibly initiated by them and again not us.

I have written earlier also in this forum that the only way for reconciliation, nay, even survival of the TB in today's TN is to wholeheartedly and unreservedly accept the fact that the NBs and SCs/STs are today occupying the privileged position in society just as the Tamil (and all other types of) Brahmins were occupying till perhaps 60 or 70 years ago; if today's NBs and SCs/STs are enjoying some benefits and advantages through undue, unethical methods, the TBs prior to 60 or 70 years from the present enjoyed their privileges on the basis of equally, if not more, unethical basis provided by ancient one-sided rules framed for the purpose of caste discrimination and supremacy of brahmins.

So, irrespective of anyone of us trying to rewrite history or otherwise, history will happen in its own sweet time and just as the NBs and SCs/STs had to suffer ignominy and all sorts of social disadvantages for close to 2500 or 3000 years, the TBs may have to suffer ostracization for an equal, and perhaps more, period; retribution for karma is not decided by Man but by eternal Law of Karma even according to the scriptures revered by brahmins.

If we TBs are not prepared to suffer for the next 2500 or 3000 years the ostracization, unloved, unwanted, unprotected and would prefer to have mutual support and respect from the so-called them, let the TBs form into associations and at the level of such associations go out to the rest of the Tamil Nadu society and spread the impression that we treat them as equals; in our milieu the best methods will be பந்தி போஜனம் (eating together in common rows), inter-caste marriages and united worship like performing bhajans together (like in the Ayyappa groups), inviting the non-brahmin friends for samashti and individual upanayanams and making the "vaTu" and his parents to do "abhivaadaye" to the NB elders also, etc. Let the TBs in TN start unting to form and register associations for this purpose and take these steps.

But I doubt if such suggestions will be welcome even to Carvaka who started this thread!
Dear Sangom I agree with your post. I find it in a way interesting. Like it or not, we will be seeing these divisions and the things that we talk about are anyway happening. Not due to change of hearts but due to the force of intercaste marriages which will change the very understanding of brahminism.

It is imminent and no-one can prevent a common identity from emerging. Reconciliation is happening atleast on one front-caste. The children of die hard brahmins are marrying and eating together with the descendants of people , brahmins would not even have touched. Changes are happening fast.
 
Hi KB,


Personally, I always, would like to separate the writer from his views. I may hate the views, but I would like to think, I respect and like the writer. Which I do, towards you, whether it be reciprocated or not, is immaterial.

As far as this forum is concerned, a person is what he writes!

There is no reason for anyone to hate another member personally.

I do object to name calling, only because, it does not put me in a bad light. Only you, and in a way, unable to come up with cogent reasons for terming me ‘anti Brahmin’, you are not able to come up with any more reasons as to why I should be anti Brahmin, and not you.

I have given specific examples for who is considered an anti-brahmin. The problem is not one of mere introspection. The problem is constant and repeated attacks on a community who is being forced to accept anything thrown down upon them without as much a whimper. I object to this treatment in this forum.

The rest of your post are just canards without any proof. Have I held anywhere that brahmins are superior? Or have I stated anywhere that brahmins should keep away from NBs?

Your ref. to Hitler is laughable and reminded me of Godwin's law - Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized corollary that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful.
 
Subbudu sir and Sangom sir,

I think of reconciliation in these ways (all of which applies to anyone irrespective of caste) --

1) Please stop assigning varnas, for they have no relevance in democracy.

2) In private spiritual life, those who are moving into different secular jobs please give up the jaathi and varna of your great-grand-parents / parents. Don't say "Indian Government labels me so, hence i am chettiar". Please do not forget Indian constitution was "created" that way by those who wanted birth-rights. Making an egalitarian honest inclusive society (from now on atleast) is in your hands.

3) Allow vedic education, agama training, or just any form of spiritual studies to anyone based on his merit, proclivity and ability alone (and not on his father's caste).

4) Have open discourses (by including people of any occupation/caste/creed) on philosophies to develop them better.

5) Every hindu family must support temples and traditional art forms. Let temples play a proactive vibrant role in bringing various people together.

6) Genuinely accept a human for what s/he is; and please forget about caste.
 
Dear Krishnamurthy Sir,

Nationalism is a concept that should be based on the love of the nation.

If it is based on the love of religion, sooner or later it will become fundamentalism.

This is exactly what ails islam and christianity -- in both religions fundamentalist have carved a niche for themselves. We cannot allow hinduism to be drawn into the same muck.

One must note that fundamentalists are often intellectuals, the clergy, and such like; who are well versed in religious aspects of their religion and seek to propagate the same.

There were and are far too many missionary attacks on India -- both islamic and christian. However, the solution is not hindu nationalism or counter-nationalism-based-on-religion.

We need to fight against fundamentalism by involving moderates of all religions.

It must also be remembered that Hindu-nationalism and hindutva are concepts that will be well-received only by those who did not bear the brunt of casteism.


rationalism is yet another refined form of fascism. its the nationalists who did piggybacking ride with religion, to keep their political forte safe.

hindutva nationalism is also the same, its all about the power to conquer nation for select few, using the religion. for that religion cannot be blamed but blame it on nationalists.

will share yet another quote by Arthur Keith :- Christianity has not conquered nationalism; the opposite has been the case nationalism has made Christianity its footstool.


lets get rid of this nationalism. americans may not like to hear this, but its true. let india and pakistan be one, and even be called as United States of Pakistan and live together in peace. is there any body out there!

i re quote nara's earlier lyrics from the fab5 liverpool boys of 60's.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
 
We need to fight against fundamentalism by involving moderates of all religions.

It must also be remembered that Hindu-nationalism and hindutva are concepts that will be well-received only by those who did not bear the brunt of casteism.

Things are changing HH. In some parts of Bengal, the attack on hindus (of all castes) is so blatant in connivance with MLAs and MPs of the so called secular parties, that the emergence of hindutva is inevitable.
 
கால பைரவன்;96461 said:
Things are changing HH. In some parts of Bengal, the attack on hindus (of all castes) is so blatant in connivance with MLAs and MPs of the so called secular parties, that the emergence of hindutva is inevitable.
Well i do not know about the bengal incident you are mentioning of, so i cannot comment. However i believe the police has to deal with such attacks; and not hindutva. A police which is not influenced by leftist, rightist, hindutva, communist, etc politicians. If we want corrupt-free policing, we need to be corrupt-free ourselves.
 
Well i do not know about the bengal incident you are mentioning of, so i cannot comment. However i believe the police has to deal with such attacks; and not hindutva. A police which is not influenced by leftist, rightist, hindutva, communist, etc politicians. If we want corrupt-free policing, we need to be corrupt-free ourselves.

If wishes were horses...!

In India, is there any state where the police acts free of intrusions from the ruling party?
 
KB,

thank you for your note.

if you imagine the sky is falling down, it is. i cannot say any more. i feel hinduism will evolve more towards a pluralistic society of acknowledged groups, with tambrams as a group, same as the rest. we will continue to keep certain of our traditions that are relevant. ic marriages will happen more in the next generation, whether you like it or not, it may be your daughter or your son, and if you lvoe them truly you will be forced to accept it.

i personally think, it is better to be two steps ahead of where the society is moving, than two steps behind.

peace.
 
Subbudu sir and Sangom sir,

I think of reconciliation in these ways (all of which applies to anyone irrespective of caste) --

1) Please stop assigning varnas, for they have no relevance in democracy.

2) In private spiritual life, those who are moving into different secular jobs please give up the jaathi and varna of your great-grand-parents / parents. Don't say "Indian Government labels me so, hence i am chettiar". Please do not forget Indian constitution was "created" that way by those who wanted birth-rights. Making an egalitarian honest inclusive society (from now on atleast) is in your hands.

3) Allow vedic education, agama training, or just any form of spiritual studies to anyone based on his merit, proclivity and ability alone (and not on his father's caste).

4) Have open discourses (by including people of any occupation/caste/creed) on philosophies to develop them better.

5) Every hindu family must support temples and traditional art forms. Let temples play a proactive vibrant role in bringing various people together.

6) Genuinely accept a human for what s/he is; and please forget about caste.
While I agree with your points in principle let me express my views by modifying your statements if you dont mind. These views follow your pattern but I feel they should be more entrenched in society
1. Please dont follow any class system in society . Excess money and wealth needs to be redistributed to society. Please your wealth for social purposes or for creating employment not on your lifestyle . Class system is an equal problem as was evidenced in the west. Caste is a subset or modification of the class. So class system which I refer to includes all the sub-classifications

2. Agreed and further please earn your respect by your own merits dont demand respect or privilege because of your parents and ancestors

3. Re-establish the process of enquiry on God. Let us restart from scratch. Let us begin with ABC in the light of all positive evidence from science on universe. Reset the clock to 0. Let us start spiritual enquiry there. Let us focus on simplicity, truthfulness and knowledge. While access to agamic, vedic education must be there , there is a dire necessity to restart from time 0. Get hard evidences for agamic or vedic practices by proving their merits on a case by case basis. Let official hard-proven science be made the primary source for validation for all human/spiritual knowledge. In the past it was done on the vedas by assuming it to be true but so many thousands of years have confused us. So let us start from science as the source of validation. You can see HH that I depart very much from your view on this. I think somewhere in your heart, there is a soft corner for vedas. But how can we accept all stuff unless there is a primary source of validation which indisputably true?

4. I again disagree with you here. I think philosophies are a waste of human time. Let us not debate on any philosophy. Let us start from hard-facts and allow theory to emerge on its own , at its own pace. We dont want another superstition to arrive, just because there is some consensus in society

5. Temples temples temples...... I am thinking on their need and utility.... it cannot unite all sects and religions.... I think we should all have community meditation centres where people of all community come and meditate?...no idols no philosophies( all this is just another way of starting a new sect) no nothing...and also have positive thinking and rehabilitation and counselling centres to solve problems in society

6. Agree please also forget the class, the looks and the race and the religion
 
I.....
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. 008 on the subject"We call Hindus to Islam"
(ZAID HAMID)
The powerful speech by Mrs.Radha Rajan for 'Nationalist India" is very relevant
in the context of assault on Hindu Society by other religious(powerful) Groups and by
the socalled intelligentia among Hindus.
Dear BK sir, the first video is in Hindi or Urudu, can't understand a thing.

The second video was fun to watch. The similarity of tone and message with Rush Limbaugh/Sara Palin is amazing. Her rhetoric of blaming the media, intellectual elites, secularism for the dilution of Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma and Dharmees is so similar to the extreme right-wing rhetoric here in the U.S. lamenting the dilution of Christian values.

When she calls for Kshatriya response to the threats she sees from everybody else I was reminded of the losing Republican Senate candidate from Nevada, Sharron Angle, calling for Second Amendment (guns) remedies.

She says non-hinuds must not be allowed to participate in governance, I think this Zaid Hamid guy must also be saying something similar, except he must be saying that about non-Muslims. How nice it will be if we let these nut cases to talk to each other and leave the rest of us alone?

Let us hope the "us v. them" message of Mrs. Radha Rajan or Zaid Hamid will not resonate with anyone but a small minority wing nut cases.

Cheers!
 
IMHO,the unity among all Hindus is very much necessary as Hindu society is being attacked both by insiders who call themselves Hindus,but try to weaken the Hindu Society and by outsiders.
I request all the members to go through the messages in 'twitter'from one "
Zaid Hamid"
twitter.com/zaidzamanhamid/status/111522998804156416
The gist of the message is"This message must reach every Hindu in the world,especially Pandits.On the sunnah of RASUL ALLAH(sm)We........
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. 008 on the subject"We call Hindus to Islam"
(ZAID HAMID)
The powerful speech by Mrs.Radha Rajan for 'Nationalist India" is very relevant
in the context of assault on Hindu Society by other religious(powerful) Groups and by
the socalled intelligentia among Hindus.
You can hear her speech http://video.google.com/videoplay? docid=6864335520571762844#
Ps.I do not blindly subscribe to any philosophy or any ideology but support the view/arguments when I consider
that there is justice in the arguments/views.

Respected Shri Krishnamurthy,

Namaskaram. I have heard the video of the Pakistani and the mullah and both are very effective, and in some ways, powerful oratory imho. The Mulla's copious recitation of the Hindu scriptures in Sanskrit is likely to do more harm to hinduism. The second video of Radha rajan is not available at the link given. But I could get a video of a speech of one Smt. Radha Rajan in Intellectual Terrorism - YouTube. Interested persons may like to view this.

Sir, as you may well know me by now, I and my sympathies lie fully with Hindus and, more, important than even that, the continued welfare and ascendancy of our country in the comity of nations, though, philosophically I hold agnostic views.

The religions like Islam and Christianity survive on proselytisation, whereas Hinduism has probably not done it in our historic memory. This is boasted of by the Hindutva protagonists often as a feather in their cap. True, but what was, is and probably will be, the Achille's heel of Hinduism (or Sanatana Dharma which Smt. Radha Rajan also cites in her speech which is full of half-truths)? The same feather in the cap of not proselytising even all those whom we want to bring under the term "Hindu", imo.

Lat me elaborate. Till as late as the 1920's or 1930's the sizeable percentage of the hindu population comprising the lower castes (about 25 % as of 2001 census) had no access to many of our Temples and, in fact, they were mere peripheral onlookers from a safe distance, at best, of whatever went on as Hinduism in those days. Untouchability was also very actively practised till the early decades of the last century throughout this country. Thus Hinduism or the glorified Sanatana Dharma, was thus a religion of the few privileged castes, made by those very castes and practised for their own benefit only. The lower classes had no role in that religion and so they had no love lost for that religion; if at all, they would have gone out of the degraded position in which the Hindu religion held them. A statesman of towering stature like Dr. Ambedkar chose Buddhism which, along with Jainism, was one of the first revolt against the Sanatana Vedic religion, as his escape - probably because he knew the other two major religions very well - but the vast majority of illiterate Dalits presented themselves as easy target for proselytising Christian Missionaries. This situation continues even today because none of us (brahmins, at least) is prepared or ready to go out and reach out to these ostracized sections of the populations.

I had suggested, probably in another thread, that there could be periodical interdining occasions, common prayers and including the Dalit elders also as worthy of being greeted with our time-honoured "abhivaadaye" on occasions like Upanayanams. Someone rejected the interdining, saying this is a usual ploy of political parties and will backfire on us, if we embark on the same ploy.

Whatever may be the opinions, the need of the hour is for the caste brahmins to reach out and absorb the vulnerable and marginalized sections of the Hindu population, without any further loss of time so that those people have less grounds to convert. But many memders in this Forum appear to be more intent upon "preserving" the 'Brahmin way of living' and ensuring that the "brahmin community" is preserved.

In the video the person gives a very clear threat that "the Pundits and Hindus of Hindustan should better accept Islam and convert to it lest they become the targets of the swords of the warriors of Islam." If we want to avoid such an eventuality, the Brahmins should at once arise, awake and rest not until the goal of Hindu egalitarianism becomes a fact.But, sadly, our members here seem to be very sensitive to their "Brahmin" existence and not about the danger common to Hindus as a whole. As someone posted in another context, if we continue with the abovesaid preoccupation bordering on obsession, with our "Brahmin" existence, a situation will come "when they at last came in search of me, there was nobody to whom I could look to for help."

Some of us here, like Kunjuppu, Nara, HappyHindu and myself try to awaken the brahmin members and readers, about the ultimate futility of our clinging on to the "preservation of brahmins and the brahmin way of life" - as brahmins have been wont to do for thousands of years, without realizing the changes taking place in the world and the threat to Hinduism itself. But the so-called "true brahmin" members feel that what we advocate is anti-brahmin, that we are self-loathing, and so on and so forth. It is a pity that these very devout and obstinate self-proclaimed soldiers of brahminism will not dare to take even one little step towards forming "Hindu (Brahmin) suicide squads" (jihadis); the existence of Hinduism itself probably depends on whether such squads get formed or not.

The Hindutva parties have come to be looked upon with suspicion as a party of the forward castes and they also do not seem to be sincere in bringing the lower and Dalit sections within their fold. (Mayawati's ascendency to power was due to this, imo.) And on top of that they went on to perform a "Rathyatra" with Rama's picture which again does not ring any bell in the Dalits' ears; and the destruction of the unused and decrepit Babri Masjid only helped consolidate the Islamic side and not the Hindus.

Thus the Hindus seem to have taken a vow to become sitting ducks for the machinations of Xianity and Islam; we in this Forum would like to cling to our Brahminism at any cost, even if Hinduism itself is threatened so directly as seen in the video. Probably, the only way to comfort ourselves is to accept Islam as the coming of the Kalki avataar and explore the possibility of having a priestly and privileged class within it where the privileges will devolve merely by birth to priest class parents, even if one does not know more than two lines of the Holy Koran.
 
Nara said in #46

It is a well established fact that the TBs very carefully maintained their separateness from the rest of the Tamil population. In almost every walk of social life they created norms that separated them from the rest, from the clothes they wear, how they wear it, language, food habits, culture, the list goes on.

It was not only Brahmins but every other community had distinguishing identities and they were zealously guarding them. If it was dress code then other communities also had such codes –just an example is the head-gear called “thalaippaakai” for which there was a code as to who can wear it and before whom. Brahmins never wore this thalaippaakai in villages. That later it became a fashion to wear it as TURBAN along with the coat and suit among urbanised aritocracy is a different matter. And I have basically this question to ask: what is wrong with wearing a dress of a community’s choice as long as it is not an affront to others? Coming to the way tamil is spoken each community has its own ways of speaking the language. The idioms, intonation, area specific usage of words etc are all the ingradients of a melting pot called India/Tamilnadu. Food habits and culture can never be dictated to be uniform. So It is not a well established fact as claimed here by Mr. Nara that brahmins had carefully maintained a distinctness which others were not aware of. Nothing is established here other than one’s own prejudices by presuming such things and propogating them to others.

Anyone who is familiar with social life in Tamilnadu knows that one can't tell what caste group a person belongs to, except Brahmins. The moment a Brahmin opens his/her mouth and says anything, he/she will immediately stand out as a Brahmin. This is not just some accident of history, it is deliberate.

This is not true the way it is presented here. All special characteristics of spoken language have their base in regions from which the speakers hail. A TB from Tirunelveli speaks quite a different dialect of Tamil than the one from Tanjore area. Some of the words used by the TB from Tirunelveli have never been heard of by a TB from Tanjore. So among the two who is the Brahmin and who is not a brahmin based on your standard reference book of brahmin tamil? Or is it that one group has rebelled against the other and started its own tamil vocabulary? When a brahmin opens his mouth he stands out because of his cultural traits and values which reflect in what he speaks and not because he is a brahmin who has deliberately chosen to speak in a certain way. To look for a well planned scheme/agenda in/behind such simple things requires a very complicated and antogonistic mindset. If any thing that is what is displayed here in gay abundance.

What I have said is not a lonely voice. Mr. Nachinarkiniyan has said similarly in his post #49 in this thread as follows: “If we have a Brahmin Tamil, we also have a Kongu nattu Tamil, Saiva Vellla Pillai tamil, Chetti Nattu Tamil and Nanchil Nattu Tamil”.


They even have elaborate stories in the form of puranas to reinforce this mindset.

Puranas and stories were not exclusive properties owned/ created by brahmins. They were owned /created by the society at that distant time and we do not have any acceptable evidence to prove the culpability of brahmins alone for those puranas and what is said in them. If there is acceptable proof, that can be discussed here. Their real quality for acceptance/rejection can be determined in an open discussion by this forum. I haven’t come across any proof which can stand scrutiny other than the handed down wisdom of Europeans and the slanderous outporings of self-serving Atheists crowd.

On the other hand, by and large, among the T-NBs, in spite of the sickeningly long list of castes and sub-castes, they have not separated themselves from each other in such all-pervading ways. There may be regional differences, one may be able to tell a Tanjore NB from a Coimbatore one or a Thiruneveli one. But within a region the NBs do not maintain outward exclusivity, except Brahmins.

“Outward” is the key word here. The non-maintenance of any “outward exclusivity” even while steadfastly maintaining the exclusivity in important social aspects/transactions of life may be a clever/cunning attempt at hoodwinking the gullible sections of the society to feel a sort of comeraderie. Ultimately in the touchstone of social equality/justice it is not the outward symbols that matter but the real empathy and friendship which every one should exhibit towards every one else in the society. If you are ready to go to the extent of killing your own offsprings for marrying out side your caste, all your mouthing of Samudhaaya otrumai , jaathi ozhika, etc. etc., will be just ‘Aranya ruthiram’ , and your embracing and kissing every dalit on the street in front of cameras will all be just a display of hyporisy.

This wall was raised and maintained by TBs. Having created and maintained this separate identity for so long and derived all the benefits therefrom, now, when this is no longer working to their advantage, accusing the rest of the Tamils of "constant scrutiny" is, to put it mildly, rewriting history.

There was no wall ever raised by brahmins. It is an imaginery wall created out of thin air by politicians with an axe to grind. It is working to their advantage still and that is why we are all here wasting time shuffling bits and bites in this forum. The ‘constant scrutiny’ is a weapon used to keep away permenantly from the competition a section of the society which is resourceful. The powerful sections of the society, in their effort to keep their monopoly over the national resources, use religion, caste and everything to keep this resourceful section barred from unfettered participation in the sharing of national resources. This has been the truth for long and it remains the truth at present and may remain so for some time to come.

There is no Shudra and Non-Shudra separtation, but there is a TB - TNB one, why?

Please read The Hindu Matrimonials columns every Sunday. You will come across the terms non-mudaliyar, non-saiva pillai, non-vanniya etc more frequently than the term non-brahmin. If this is not sufficient evidence please write back to me I can give you more.

Cheers.
 
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