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Tamil Brahmin Possible origin

prasad1

Well-known member
There have been few threads about Tamil Brahmin culture (?), then again most of them did not even name one cultural trait common to TB.

I am a Tamil Brahmin and I recently did my DNA test. I want to share some interesting ancestry information.



I was surprised to find my paternal line migrated from eastern europe as recently as 6000-4000 years ago (and with most probability into India because as far as my family can remember - great great great grandfather / 16th century - they are all from villages in South India). And also that I share a haplogroup common with Ashkenazi jews.

And on my mother's side using mito-chondrial DNA testing the suggested route taken by their lineage is through Iran. That is out of Africa -> Middle east -> Iran (3000 years ago split) -> India

So by what I have learned, I am more than convinced of recent migration (5000-3000 years ago) of groups of people from Iran and Eastern Europe. And since I am a brahmin as far as my very orthodox family can remember on both mom and dad's side, I am starting to believe in some form of an 'Aryan' immigration theory if not invasion.

Btw, we also know our roots are in Varanasi as the surname carried by me, dad, his dad's dad etc is Kashi Sharma. This is the name also used in Sanskrit shlokas during ceremonies at home when say my name is called out it is said this fellow - "my traditional first name sharma" of "my gotra here" from kashi sharma kula - even though we speak only Tamil at home.
It has to be noted that in my Tamil Brahmin family we have two names for everyone. One is a Sanskrit name and surname which is used in ceremonies by the priests (or gurukul as we call in Tamil) and another Tamil name with dad's name as surname. Am not sure if this is followed by all Tambram families as well?

Now this DNA based migration data makes me believe probably my dad's ancestors travelled down into India (via Punjab?) and settled in Kashi, UP for sometime establishing their clan or kula, and then may be during Asoka's time of Buddhism and de-recognition of Hinduism in the north, moved down south?

Btw, a relative on dad's side is Sir CV Raman :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/6t0fpc
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Few points

1. How do we know if the North Indian city Varanasi is the one mentioned in our scriptures ? There are any number of cities in south which are known as Kashi.

2. Yes, allTBs have 2 names, one of the is a traditional name with Sharma surname as per our abhivadeye. Btn, the ancient Egyptians had 2 names, one public, one secret name. Like King Manu is our first King, King Menes is their first King.

3. King Manu is ack, to be a South Indian King by all researchers. Because only the King Manu Needi Cholan carries Manu in his name in the written inscriptions in india. And manusmriti originates form him, which classifies Varnas and talks about Brahmins and their duties.

4. Caste system exists in Ethiopia even today and not in eastern Europe. So King Manu and or his descendants may have conquered all the way from south india to Ethiopia. If Alexander could come all the way to india, Kings from here could well have gone there. Then it is possible for King Manu and King Menes to the first King for both the kingdoms.

4. Alexander soldiers came to india, many maritime foreign traders came to india and settle down here. These are well documented in written inscriptions and the DNA linkage could be from them.

5. Aryan invasion or migration has zero absolutely zero documentary evidence and the theory itself is beyond far fetched. That a white race came to north india, they conquered and pushed the Dravidians to south, but they adopted the Dravidian dark gods, but aryanised them, etc.. I mean, it is beyond silly...LOL.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
And none of the Indians have any white features - hairs, eyes, skin colour, etc..

No offence to anyone. On the other hand, North Indians Hindus and Muslims look the same, same features, same language - Hindi and Urdu are same except script, same customs - Holi is the same as Eid e Gulabi, food is same - roti, sabji, etc..

So how lah ??? Same discredited theory is circulated every now and then..
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
By the way the Egyptians themselves say, in written inscriptions, they come from the lands in the east !

No invading army or colonising people in history have ever adopted the Gods of the fallen. Obviou, why will they??

Only a small group of people who migrated or a small group of Alexander's army that split and settles in india will adopt the local gods !!
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
I am not against any theory but it needs to be proved atleast to some extent if not 100%.

Let's take the Sanskrit text and words...

1. Atma, Jeevatma are all Kannada words. You have people in Karnataka who are named Jeeva. Mahajanapada is aagain a Kannada word, it is widely used.

2. Most names in Sanskrit are used as people's name in south india more than north. Ganga, Gangamma, Saraswati, Sarasa, etc..are all more common in south and rarely used in north.

3. Brahmin means a person of good character - and most definitely comes from Tamil word Panbanavan - man of good character - same meaning. In Indonesia, the biggest temple is known as - prambanan (almost identical to Tamil word Panbanavan) and is dedicated to Brahma - from whom the Brahmins originate.

4. For eg, the biggest religious celebration in india is kumbha mela. Some may know the mahamakam in Kumbakonam is also a 12 yr festival and is also known as kumbha mela (makes more sense, it comes from word kumbha - Konam). All the kumbha mela festivals in north were all established only in 17th or 19th century and as per their own accounts, it says, some priest in 18th century linked it to the kumbha mela to attract more devotees. To me, clearly the Kumbakonam mahamakam is the original correct kumbha mela festival.

So you get the gist...

Every word, every legend, every etymology in our scritures, etc.....you will find in south of india. And in most cases the south custom, ritual, legend exists in written inscriptions unlike the oral legends or some people claim etc..for the same north legends...

And perfectly only the south Brahmins and more particularly us TBs are the only flag bearers of these rituals and customs in an unbroken family lineage from our ancient Rishi fathers !!!!!

Sanskrit sounds like Tamil, was "found inscribed" "only in Tamil lands" - south, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia. And not to forget Sankrit was "only written in Pallava Grantham script" right through history. Only Tamil kings wrote in Sankrit.

Maybe just maybe, Tamil and Sanskrit are sister languages.. 😄 and Tamil kings used it to inscribe all thier directions, legends, accounts,and etc..

And maybe, just maybe, some foreigners like Alexander soldiers, foreign traders settle down here in south india and intermixed with the locals leading to the DNA linkage,.,

And when the correct history is known, everything, eveything kind of lines up perfectly...like the temple for Lord brahma is named prambanan, local legend says demons (ravanan or his descendants) built this temple - why will demons build a temple for a god brahma? unless it was ravanan or his people), strangely mahamakam in Kumbakonam also named as kumbha mela, Sankrit being written only in Tamil Grantham script, Prakrit language is more likely nah definitely ancient Kannada, Egyptians themselves claiming they come from lands of the east on pyramid wall inscriptions, Alxenadar hearing of the famed lands of indae from Egyptians wants to conquer it, King Manu and King Raman to King Menes to King Rameses etc..

LOL
 
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Jaykay767

Well-known member
Finally only a small group of people who settle "voluntarily" in foreign lands will adopt the local gods as their gods and worship them in gratitude for allowing them to settle down. So fair skinned people worshipping dark skinned gods concept makes sense only for Alexander soldiers who split and stay back voluntarily as per Greek records, in the Indian lands !!
 

renuka

Well-known member
And none of the Indians have any white features - hairs, eyes, skin colour, etc..

No offence to anyone. On the other hand, North Indians Hindus and Muslims look the same, same features, same language - Hindi and Urdu are same except script, same customs - Holi is the same as Eid e Gulabi, food is same - roti, sabji, etc..

So how lah ??? Same discredited theory is circulated every now and then..

The average South Indian body structure..features..height..body muscle mass ratio etc doesnt differ much from community to community.

South Asians(South Indians included) over all have much less muscle mass and have higher body fat ratio and a higher risk for metabolic syndrome which is NOT the case for an races from Europe.

I saw a video of a very middle eastern Europeanish looking Pakistani who did his DNA and his DNA showed South Asian ONLY. No European heritage or middle eastern heritage.

Then there was another video of an very European looking arab whose DNA did show some European ancestory and also Indian ancestory which he never knew about.
Another Arab had African genes too.

Anyway the point here is....how did Brahmins acquire south indian looks ?
The fact is a TB looks very south indian and does not look european at all.
Some North Indian Brahmins at times do look a bit Europeanish or more middle eastern but this is rarely seen in a South Indian Brahmin especially from Tamil Nadu.

Being fair skinned doesn't give one European looks...Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are also very light skinned but do not look European at all.

I dont buy the migration story but I feel there surely was other DNA's that came along into India from races that came and conquered..or stayed.

Men usually took local wives/partners or chinna veedus or part time lovers and the children spoke their mothers language.

If we observe an offspring of a South Indian and a Caucasian mostly they end up looking like very good looking Northern Indians.
But if a North Indian and a Caucasian mix off spring tends to look more Caucasian.

So this gives a rough idea that some parts of India could have had some other races DNA.

Since Tamil Brahmins look very south indian may be thats how they really looked like and their genes didnt get exposed to invador or Greek genes hence retained their original Indian look.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
The average South Indian body structure..features..height..body muscle mass ratio etc doesnt differ much from community to community.

South Asians(South Indians included) over all have much less muscle mass and have higher body fat ratio and a higher risk for metabolic syndrome which is NOT the case for an races from Europe.

I saw a video of a very middle eastern Europeanish looking Pakistani who did his DNA and his DNA showed South Asian ONLY. No European heritage or middle eastern heritage.

Then there was another video of an very European looking arab whose DNA did show some European ancestory and also Indian ancestory which he never knew about.
Another Arab had African genes too.

Anyway the point here is....how did Brahmins acquire south indian looks ?
The fact is a TB looks very south indian and does not look european at all.
Some North Indian Brahmins at times do look a bit Europeanish or more middle eastern but this is rarely seen in a South Indian Brahmin especially from Tamil Nadu.

Being fair skinned doesn't give one European looks...Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are also very light skinned but do not look European at all.

I dont buy the migration story but I feel there surely was other DNA's that came along into India from races that came and conquered..or stayed.

Men usually took local wives/partners or chinna veedus or part time lovers and the children spoke their mothers language.

If we observe an offspring of a South Indian and a Caucasian mostly they end up looking like very good looking Northern Indians.
But if a North Indian and a Caucasian mix off spring tends to look more Caucasian.

So this gives a rough idea that some parts of India could have had some other races DNA.

Since Tamil Brahmins look very south indian may be thats how they really looked like and their genes didnt get exposed to invador or Greek genes hence retained their original Indian look.
Renukaji,
My point is we have documented evidence of people coming to india - British colonials, Mughals, Alexander soldiers, Greek Megasthenes going to Pandian kingdom and writes in his book, that he heard a story identical to troy recited in the kings court :) - , Chinese Philosopher coming to india, etc..

Why can't the fair skin, features comes from them including the foreign DNA ? Why look for a Aryan invasion with zero documentary evidence unless the dishonest colonial Brits and Germans wanted to claim Sanskrit civilization as theirs ??

To me it looks more Mughal than anyone except for "few of us south Brahmins" in absolutely in "remote villages" in Tamil Nadu where the genetic mix is perfectly preserved over the 3000 yrs. They most likely escaped all the Mughal invasions, British colonials, etc..

My view TBs and many Tamils in general are mixed with the Alexander soldiers (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persian Jews, ) in 2300bc, and in this long period of times they would look more medium to dark skinned but with more striking features. Many Tamils irrespective of colour, have more striking features in general.

This is why the Germans like Max Muller felt that the South Indians had European DNA mixed. But they were intellectually dishonest to claim Aryan migration instead of looking to alexdaners very well documented Greek history and also in Indian inscriptions.

Mughals could very well have European DNA mixed, they were closest to Europe being from Persian Iran.. (I mean if having European DNA is that critical and important to anyone ...LOL)

Lastly remember the many claims that keralam has a lot of Aryans fair skinned, and Tipu sultan went there, so obviously they are Mughal mixed.

Many nambiodiris are actually medium to dark skinnned, similar to many TBs who are Medium to dark skinned -'it is these Brahmins we have to study their DNA and match with Egyptian mummies and the Greek DNA from that period :) -, more to establish our history , not to claim superiority. Similar study should be done for Tamils in general not just specific to any one caste.

Maybe some intellectually honest historian with good funding can do this study and publish the results...

JK
 
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Jaykay767

Well-known member
Similarly we have to study North Indians in very remote villages untouched by invasions and do a DNA study.

As I said in my previous posts above, Tamils conquered most lands from south all the way to north india, Pakistan, Afghanistan, middle east, Egypt, Ethiopia, and everywhere they left their imprints in the form of the caste system.

Caste system is a history marker for Tamils (manusmriti comes from South Indian King Manu - Cholan) they carried where ever they went ..you will find in Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia. Bali, etc..
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
My view - Some Indians from both north and south, in very remote villages (slightly fair to medium to dark skinned) untouched by invasions will "most likely" be carrying these foreign DNAs, preserved through the vagaries of time. This is most likely as these remote village were so tough to reach even as late as 1980s...only bullock carts could go..

My focus is to establish correct history not csste dominance, or superiority, as you can see, from this...many non Brahmins dark skinned with striking features could well be carrying a Greek DNA preserved in these remote villages..
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
And why are we focused on Greek or Roman DNA ? Because of the identical stories of Ramayan and Troy, Odesseus legends to Indian Puranas, mahabharatam, Roman legends - Rome burned down similar to Madurai, etc.. Ashokan pillars to similar Herculean pillars, Greek and Aramaic inscriptions written in the Ashoka pillar in Bangalore...etc.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Many South Indian kings ruled over North Indian lands till Mughal invasion as late as 11th century..so by logical inference, DNA study in remote villages should be be similar ...if they are untouched by Mughal invasion, or British colonialism, ...
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Renukaji,
My point is we have documented evidence of people coming to india - British colonials, Mughals, Alexander soldiers, Greek Megasthenes going to Pandian kingdom and writes in his book, that he heard a story identical to troy recited in the kings court :) - , Chinese Philosopher coming to india, etc..

Why can't the fair skin, features comes from them including the foreign DNA ? Why look for a Aryan invasion with zero documentary evidence unless the dishonest colonial Brits and Germans wanted to claim Sanskrit civilization as theirs ??

To me it looks more Mughal than anyone except for "few of us south Brahmins" in absolutely in "remote villages" in Tamil Nadu where the genetic mix is perfectly preserved over the 3000 yrs. They most likely escaped all the Mughal invasions, British colonials, etc..

My view TBs and many Tamils in general are mixed with the Alexander soldiers (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persian Jews, ) in 2300bc, and in this long period of times they would look more medium to dark skinned but with more striking features. Many Tamils irrespective of colour, have more striking features in general.

This is why the Germans like Max Muller felt that the South Indians had European DNA mixed. But they were intellectually dishonest to claim Aryan migration instead of looking to alexdaners very well documented Greek history and also in Indian inscriptions.

Mughals could very well have European DNA mixed, they were closest to Europe being from Persian Iran.. (I mean if having European DNA is that critical and important to anyone ...LOL)

Lastly remember the many claims that keralam has a lot of Aryans fair skinned, and Tipu sultan went there, so obviously they are Mughal mixed.

Many nambiodiris are actually medium to dark skinnned, similar to many TBs who are Medium to dark skinned -'it is these Brahmins we have to study their DNA and match with Egyptian mummies and the Greek DNA from that period :) -, more to establish our history , not to claim superiority. Similar study should be done for Tamils in general not just specific to any one caste.

Maybe some intellectually honest historian with good funding can do this study and publish the results...

JK
JK Ji,

I also saw an old pic of Kashmiri Brahmins on FB ..it was a black and white pic and to my surprise they looked a lot like Biharis.

Biharis are sharp featured but medium tan.

The pic didnt show the Kashmiri Brahmin as snow white Caucasian types.

I am starting to wonder that the actual inhabitants of India could have been a race with sharp features ( but not too high nasal index) and with tan skin.

Could be after invasion those who remained in the North became lighter skinned and lighter eyed and features more Middle Eastern/Caucasian depending on the new gene pool.

And those who moved South got the DNA pool of australoid natives and became darker and features changed a little.

Overall an average Tamilian is fine featured with deep set eyes and a average nasal index with medium tone skin.

Extremely fair or extremely dark can be found in any Tamilian community regardless of caste.

A good study of DNA would reveal all these cos its unlikely that a Brahmins came from elsewhere..cos if they brought Vedas along with them...why we do not find Vedic culture anywhere else in the world but India.

The 1st Vishnu Avatar too happened in South India.

BTW the Hadiths mention that the 1st human Adam was from South of the Indian subcontinent that is present day Sri Lanka.
Only Eve was from Saudi Arabia and the story goes that he traveled by land to meet her.
Its out of India theory for Islam.

So it could be a story about human migration..everything started in South of India..may be???.
Had
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
JK Ji,

I also saw an old pic of Kashmiri Brahmins on FB ..it was a black and white pic and to my surprise they looked a lot like Biharis.

Biharis are sharp featured but medium tan.

The pic didnt show the Kashmiri Brahmin as snow white Caucasian types.

I am starting to wonder that the actual inhabitants of India could have been a race with sharp features ( but not too high nasal index) and with tan skin.

Could be after invasion those who remained in the North became lighter skinned and lighter eyed and features more Middle Eastern/Caucasian depending on the new gene pool.

And those who moved South got the DNA pool of australoid natives and became darker and features changed a little.

Overall an average Tamilian is fine featured with deep set eyes and a average nasal index with medium tone skin.

Extremely fair or extremely dark can be found in any Tamilian community regardless of caste.

A good study of DNA would reveal all these cos its unlikely that a Brahmins came from elsewhere..cos if they brought Vedas along with them...why we do not find Vedic culture anywhere else in the world but India.

The 1st Vishnu Avatar too happened in South India.

BTW the Hadiths mention that the 1st human Adam was from South of the Indian subcontinent that is present day Sri Lanka.
Only Eve was from Saudi Arabia and the story goes that he traveled by land to meet her.
Its out of India theory for Islam.

So it could be a story about human migration..everything started in South of India..may be???.
Had
Absolutely Agree , the Indian race is definitely a race with sharp features with tan skin. Agree, a proper DNA study across india will reveal the origin of Brahmins to be a localised one - Why isn't the Vedas found anywhere else in the world except india ??

Some additional points ..

1. For eg, we Tamils have the legend of origin from the Kumari kandam island, tenmadurai, etc..theorised as lemuria by some. Here again, to me, the only island that is extremely large as explained in sangam text, can only be Australia. And you find the aboriginals who are definitely Tamil, there language is very very close to Tamil. They use the same words - Uluru, etc.. So many Tamils could have left Australia when it got flooded and came to Indonesia, Malaysia, and to Sri Lankan, South india. Hence this shows a likely east to west, and a south to north migration. They could have easily mistaken large scale flooding in Australia as sinking of the island.

2. Aboriginals in Australia have the same unbroken family lineage where the father teaches the son of the sacred texts. No other race except Tamil Brahmins and Brahmins in general in india have such a father to son tradition. Since aboriginals predate almost al civilisations except African, and they are Tamils, shows it is from them, we inherited this tradition.

3. Caste system is found in every Tamil land, all of south east Asia, and north india, Pakistan, parts of Afghanistan, and in Ethiopia. The Middle East likely lost this due to extended Persian occupation.

4. Elamite empire right in the middle of Middle East. How did an Elamite empire with Tamil origins (this was first theorised by the western researchers themselves as Tamil origin) come to exist in the Middle East out of nowhere ? Unless Tamils occupied from south india to north india, to Pakistan, Afghanistan, Middle East, Egypt, Ethiopia in the distant past prior to Alexander's invasion.

5. Egyptian inscriptions saying they come from the eastern lands point to india. Some western researchers have even gone to the extent saying the Ethiopians gave Sanskrit to the Indians. That's how close the cultural parallels, physical similariites are betweenness india, egypt and Ethiopia.

6. Sumerian and Akkadian languages have many paralles to Tamil and Kannada. Sumerian and Akkadian empires are all middle eastern.

7. Clearly the above shows south to north to Middle East migration. Otherwise caste system could not have existed in north india, Pakistan, parts of Afghanistan speaking in Tamil dialect, Elamite empire, Egyptians legends, and Ethiopians following the exact same caste system. Not to forget the Egyptian gods, culture and Indian gods, culture have far too many parallels.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
JK Ji,

I also saw an old pic of Kashmiri Brahmins on FB ..it was a black and white pic and to my surprise they looked a lot like Biharis.

Biharis are sharp featured but medium tan.

The pic didnt show the Kashmiri Brahmin as snow white Caucasian types.
Spot on. And this is where the confusion starts about the so called Aryan migration from Europe. Why are there no blue eyed, green eyed people in Kashmir ??
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Renukaji,
Basis "this view" where the Tamils occupied or conquered lands from Australia to Fiji to Indonesia, Malaysia, to india to Afghanistan to Middle East, it makes sense that Tamil is the mother or underlying substrata language for all languages in this region including Egyptian, Persian, Arabic, and European languages who borrowed heavily from the middle easterners.

So instead of spending endless time to find some white DNA in our people, we should map Tamil DNA and map in other races like European. Btn, Mughals may very we'll also be descendants of the Tamil Elamite empire though intermixed w Persians at this stage.

In fact I believe even the first writing script in the world comes from us Tamils. And with so much of history being deliberately obfuscated, there may very well be much older inscriptions in india. And we have the history of carrying our sacred writings in parchment or animal skins in our homes.

Ps. Some disgruntled elements in this forum may ban this discussions also, LOL. They don't want to discuss anything contrarian.

JK
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
No other civilization has such extensive ancient literature - sangam texts, Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, Vendantas, shashtras, etc. Over 3.4 million lines of scripts compared to just over 70,000 even for Greeks

Hence the language, script origins must be first looked in with our Tamil civilization rather than elsewhere, given our unprecented oral traditions, study, Sadhna, etc..
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
I mean, our families and our ancestors spend their entire lifetimes, generations studying, writing, teaching, and extensive oral tradition in Gurukulam to preserve these sacred texts.

How the hell could the origins s of language and script not be with us ????

No offence to anyone, it is another contrarian opinion to established theory (propaganda?). So take it easy....
 

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