Is reconciliation possible

[carvaka]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) WhatsApp Email Share Link

Dear Kaal,

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I do not recognize religions. I do, but I have not been able to clearly establish for myself if religions move towards upliftment of humanity or tools in the hands of people who have a natural tendency to dominate. So far whatever wisdom I have, it all points to the fact that religions have caused lots of loss in terms of lives and materials.

I have come to a point where I feel not winning a debate does not matter but finding ways to achieve what we would set for ourself as targets. Every human being wants to be loved and I am reasonably sure its the same case for you too. When our understanding about earning for acceptance, has grown rapidly, is it a case of reasoning loosing to raw emotions.

I do accept TBs are no less Tamils than anyother group, but are we going to fight on the same lines? Does it not amount to fueling the same fire?

So what do we do...

Nara(I know you wont have different thoughts on this) , I believe its everybody's duty to not let a fellow human-being feel helpless...Its imperative for all to find ways to soothe the aggrieved people.

More later....

 

[Nara]

Even the irreligious make claims without an iota of evidence.

KB, you are revealing a habit of taking pot shots and then backing off without engaging. Is that how you want to participate in this forum?

Alright, I request you to think about the difference between opinion and factual claims. As you might guess, opinion by its very nature is not claimed to be irrefutable fact. When Carvaka says, "I got the feeling that they try to convey Bs are better than every other NBs" that is a "feeling", an opinion if you will, not a statement of fact requiring evidence of any kind.

My comment about the feeling of superiority TBs nurture, I admit, is more than mere opinion, but it is one most TBs will admit to. Just ask around if you don't believe me. So, it is not something that is, as you state, "without an iota of evidence."

On the contrary, look at the statement I commented on:

...The genetics/nature is inherent in every form, be it a deva or jiva, but it is the 'level of the nature' that distinguishes every one. This is exactly, why our vedic texts consider the whole Creation/Reality as product of Three GunAs.

Can you produce an iota of verifiable evidence for the existence of Deva, or jeeva for that matter? Can you provide any verifiable evidence that there are these three gunas and that creation is a product of these three gunas?

If these are expressed as religious dogma, then no problem. But expressing them as obviously irrefutable facts, with an air of unassailable authority, invites rebuttal. Let us discuss the issues further if you wish, but to say that such preposterous claims are on par with what Carvaka and I have stated is lame.

But I must admit KB, you are not the first to come back with a "you too" tit-for-tat response. Many a notable theist defenders have claimed atheism is also a faith, it is also a religion, as if, by such retorts, their own faith is elevated to the rationality of atheism, or atheism is brought down to the same level of ridiculous irrationality of their own faith. They do this tit-for-tat with flawed and specious definition of what atheism is gives away their desperateness.

Cheers!

 

[carvaka]

Nara,

Thanks a lot for saying more precisely than I would have.

"...The genetics/nature is inherent in every form, be it a deva or jiva, but it is the 'level of the nature' that distinguishes every one. This is exactly, why our vedic texts consider the whole Creation/Reality as product of Three GunAs."

Kaal's statement is normative, which we do not know if anybody who is alive have analysed with the methods known to men and answered in the affirmative. We need to have the courage to throw dogmas out and start reasoning, within the known range of intellect we possess, by listing out what we want and have a consensus on the fundamentals that we need to build the means on to reach where we set for ourself...

 

[Govinda]

On the contrary, look at the statement I commented on:
Can you produce an iota of verifiable evidence for the existence of Deva, or jeeva for that matter? Can you provide any verifiable evidence that there are these three gunas and that creation is a product of these three gunas?


If these are expressed as religious dogma, then no problem. But expressing them as obviously irrefutable facts, with an air of unassailable authority, invites rebuttal.
Cheers!

Before we go into metaphysics, we should first arrive at the premise of such argument. We first understand that there can be many Knowledge Sources. The major ones are Perception/pratyaksa [What we know with our own senses], Inference/anumAna [that which we infer/arrive logically], Authority/Dogma/Scripture-Pramana [that which is known from others].

Science means (body of) Knowledge. Scientists obtain empirical evidence through Formal Sciences like Mathematics, logic, tools to arrive at Conclusions/Laws about Reality/Matter (Natural Science) and Behaviours(Social Sciences) and they are either obtained/verified through Knowledge Sources. Our vedic seers had the similar approaches to final revelations called Scripture through the means of Maths/Logic/tarka and the Knowledge Sources. They were the first to come up with metrics with simple perception/observation, 1 breath = 4 sec. Thus, they have accurately estimated the timing equinoxes, seasons, yugas and the universal cycles, in the Vedas, through their greater sense/logic perception by valid means (yagnAs were suggested in Vedas).

Why does Vedic authority that gave the right age of universe, earth, the distances of the planets with intuitive mind, become inferior to the Science that used tools? [How is the person using mental math inferior to the person using a calculator? I would credit the one having intellectual abilities with clarity, rigorous discipline and practice. Try mental/vedic math in youtube] Modern Science is a product of the natural philosophers' curiosity to know those beyond our senses. In order to visualize such knowledge/Authority, the later philosophers battled to seek better tools for Perception. I would say lenses would have been the best invention, but it is known greeks/egyptians had the idea of crystals/glass and their light properties at 5000B.C. [Mahabharat says that Parikshit lived in a glass house under water to dodge his death by a snake, an item to verify!]. Hadn't there been a wisdom already established (vedas), people wouldn't have known any physical science so sooner [once they started to become materialists!]

We perceive through our 5 senses to know the reality in front of us. We know honey is tasty, but bees sting, hence we came up with tools to steal that hive safely. This is the knowledge obtained through direct perception. Why we get sick after a feast, couldn't have been known, unless bacteria is been found through microscope (tools for perception). By inference, we could have known the cause being food, but not the germs, which is where we rely on some other's words called 'Science Authority'. Isn't that just a belief on some authority?! You didnt see the microbe with your own eyes! Atharvana veda has the mention of such germs as yatudAnya, and has the drugs to kill them. Germ theory of disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indians had the idea of inoculation, and practised in the disguise of neem leaf/pouring water/amman worship.

How is Bigbang (from the explosion of a dense primal mass) a plausible theory (sometimes debunked!) than the understanding of Prakruti (a primal matter with evolutes)? Darwin's Inference on Evolution seems appealing, but Vishnu Purana gives the 9 levels of evolution from vegetation, to animals to rishis to humans is dogma? Where is the verifiable evidence for those scientific theories? As science is empirical, their theories can also be proved false with recent evidences, like 'Oldest human fossil, 65000 years earlier than previously thought'. How is that you believe those cosmic objects, cosmic wonders (ocean in the universe, atmospheric rivers) etc., (which you have not seen with your own eyes!) when science gazette publishes, but not when vedas say that Ganga was that atmospheric river from lower skies, and the universe has 7 kinds of oceans, neptune/uranus/pluto are not even planets (in navagraha) but just sustained by saturn/jupiter [science recently changed its stance ]? If Vedas is a dogma, then science is also a dogma, regarding those matter that are not directly perceptible to us!! Else, one should accept the fact that 'Those knowledge that are not verifiable by our own perception, should also be considered on the grounds of logical reasoning and other sources of 'valid' authority'.

 

[Nara]

.... The major ones are Perception/pratyaksa [What we know with our own senses], Inference/anumAna [that which we infer/arrive logically], Authority/Dogma/Scripture-Pramana [that which is known from others].

[....]

If Vedas is a dogma, then science is also a dogma, regarding those matter that are not directly perceptible to us!!

Govinda, this line of argument from theists is very common, this forum has been subjected to it often. If it works for you then I wish you well.

But let me encourage the rest to consider that these three can be valid sources of knowledge only if they are verifiable. Testimony, whether science or vedas, can be authoritative only to the extent it comes from reliable sources with unassailable reputation for integrity.

Reputation comes from a long history of presenting reliable and verifiable explanations to physical phenomenon. Part of the integrity is to be flexible enough to change when evidence is presented that contradicts long held beliefs.

This is why science is the very antitheses of dogma, and Vedanta is the very essence of dogma. Vedas being inerrant, there is no scope to change as our knowledge and understanding improves -- we are stuck at the level of understanding 3000 years ago. This makes it nothing but imminently dogmatic.

On the contrary, science being a process of unending discovery, and a commitment to rigor, verifiability, and an eagerness to change even the holiest of holy cows when new evidence is found, is by definition not dogmatic.

Govinda, you may believe whatever you want. But, paraphrasing myself from another thread, this tit-for-tat response, i.e. science is also a dogma, is a very lame attempt to elevate Vedas to the respectability science has earned, or an attempt to bring down science to the same level of ridiculous irrationality of Vedic dogma. This, when done with a flawed and specious understanding of what science really is, gives away a certain degree of desperateness.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

This is why science is the very antitheses of dogma, and Vedanta is the very essence of dogma. Vedas being inerrant, there is no scope to change as our knowledge and understanding improves -- we are stuck at the level of understanding 3000 years ago. This makes it nothing but imminently dogmatic.

But Nara, For the orthodox believers, the rishis who lived 3000 or more years ago, had gone to the very depths of the absolute reality and discovered everything that could ever be found out (discovered, or invented) by science till the end of time.

I feel this belief could also be allowed, but what appears strange to me is that all these theists without exception (including the Swamijis and Godmen and Babas) want each and every creature comfort which science has given birth to. It would do them credit and make them principled human beings if, and if only, such people make a vow of living with whatever creature comforts those people of ancient vedic times had, and eschew anything else, like the Amish people.

 

[Yamaka]

"This is why science is the very antitheses of dogma, and Vedanta is the very essence of dogma. Vedas being inerrant, there is no scope to change as our knowledge and understanding improves -- we are stuck at the level of understanding 3000 years ago. This makes it nothing but imminently dogmatic.

On the contrary, science being a process of unending discovery, and a commitment to rigor, verifiability, and an eagerness to change even the holiest of holy cows when new evidence is found, is by definition not dogmatic." - Nara wrote.

Very well said...Amen.

For many of the Theists, who I believe are engaged in Science-based Professions for a living, a Scientific support of their Vedas will be reassuring...therefore, they huff and puff to drag in Science to validate their Vedic Dharma... or their Sanatana Dharma...

Alas... they fail very miserably...

Theists, please quit your Science-based Professions first to give credibility to your Theism.

I know you will not....

Stay tuned.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

In my humble opinion

Alright, I request you to think about the difference between opinion and factual claims. As you might guess, opinion by its very nature is not claimed to be irrefutable fact.

In other words, had member Govinda included an obligatory IMO or, even better, IMHO in his statement, all would have been fine! Is that what Nara is saying here?

This is a forum; not a scientific or religious or any academic journal. Here members' posts are taken as opinions. However, even opinions have to be backed up by reason. If asked for, facts ought to be cited to justify opinions. One may not be allowed to get away with any statement just because one used "IMO" or "my gut feeling is" in his statement.

KB, you are revealing a habit of taking pot shots and then backing off without engaging. Is that how you want to participate in this forum?

But I must admit KB, you are not the first to come back with a "you too" tit-for-tat response.

The tit-for-tat response is a great tool available to an arguer to counter people who fail or refuse to understand or accept the fallacies in their arguments.

Words are thrown around with impunity here - greedy, sinful, breast-beating, sobbing, moaning, cribbing, nurturing superiority feelings etc etc. In most forums, such broad generalizations will be frowned upon. Here it is encouraged. That is, as long as, such negative generalizations are targeted against a certain community. This forum requires a radical change in how it conducts its arguments. IMO, it won't be easy. So, Nara, prepare for a roller-coaster ride!

 

[zebra16]

I feel this belief could also be allowed, but what appears strange to me is that all these theists without exception (including the Swamijis and Godmen and Babas) want each and every creature comfort which science has given birth to. It would do them credit and make them principled human beings if, and if only, such people make a vow of living with whatever creature comforts those people of ancient vedic times had, and eschew anything else, like the Amish people.

Strange logic!! Language is not science, so scientists should not use any language!!!

 

[Subhalakshmi]

Well in some ways you are so right.. once you migrate, you want to hold on to everything you hated while growing up.. it is strange to see how men become more conservative and women more liberal but again in some families there is a nice balance... but in some it has become extreme, so as a result the children born to them specially girls are marrying out of their community.. specially the south indian girls.. but again, the boys may try and date here and there, but ultimately find someone just like their mother, in the sense an Indian girl who in every sense like their mother... I have seen so many cases in the last several years..

 

[Nara]

Strange logic!! Language is not science, so scientists should not use any language!!!

narayan, on the one hand we have the religionists enjoying everything science has to offer but never lose an opportunity to denigrate what it stands for, which is what Shri Sangom questioned, and you find this strange logic -- perhaps it is strange to you, but at least you say it is logic.

On the other hand you make a ridiculously illogical and absurd comparison by saying scientists must not use language because language is not science.

First off, you are wrong about language being not science, but leave that aside, the religioinlists lament materialism at every turn and at the same time actively seek out everything science has to offer for their own conveniences. So, for your retort demanding scientists give up using language to make sense, you need to have scientists denouncing language, which no scientist does. So, this equivalency you are trying to force is absurd.

You and KB may like tit-for-tat responses, which would be alright if at least the tit you are giving is not silly. KB, if you don't like some of the words that are used challenge them. But I don't want to get prepared for you guys to simply resort to tit-for-tat roller-coaster without even bothering to give any justification for the tit, or worse the tit given is absurdly illogical.

Please excuse me from a dialog of this type.

I for one think both of you can present serious arguments and it is unfortunate you are choosing not to.

Thank you, I still hope we can stick to topic....

 

[nachi naga]

nara,why so many tits in your post and less tats,any particular reason?

as far as amish people go,they use horse & buggy!!they wood as fuel!!

and creature comfort varies from time to time.eve an asan for rishi used to be "pulithole" !!now its dunloplillow or goodyear mattress!!.

science is part of spiritual science.how can anyone seperate it only material science?everything is a science,understanding god is by itself a huge science.

 

[Yamaka]

"science is part of spiritual science.how can anyone seperate it only material science?everything is a science,understanding god is by itself a huge science." --Nachi naga said.

Hello Nachi:

1. How or why do you say Science is part of Spiritual Science?

2. Is EVERYTHING really Science? Many people can separate Spiritualism or Materialism from Science!

Probably, for YOU, "understanding god is by itself a huge science" !

What say you?​

 

[Nara]

....science is part of spiritual science.how can anyone seperate it only material science?everything is a science,understanding god is by itself a huge science.

nachi, you are a good man, I wish you well. Your world and mine do not intersect, and that is just fine for you and me.

Best wishes Nachi Naga .....

 

[sangom]

Strange logic!! Language is not science, so scientists should not use any language!!!

Air and water — are they science or outside it so that all creatures may enjoy them?

 

[talwan]

The Recocilation is not so simple.The reconcilation of sub sects has to be the starting point.If that is accomplised then sects reconcillation should be the course.Then comes sects of Regions,,It goes on.By the time some sort of reconcilation is formed some where some sects,sub sects would have disintegrated.No hope. The same thing in political party.A parent party would have disintegrated into may factions.No reconcilation was possible,The basic Reason is 'EGO'. If the Ego is not gone no need for talk on reconcilations for it would not have disintegraed.
How ever I appreciae the sense for recociliation,
Alwan

 

[carvaka]

haha...i see people indulging in unknowns or things that ordinary mortals like me do not understand or do not take a liking for...

we know being ostracized or alienated is the problem...

 

[niyengaar]

Is Reconciliation Possible?


A very interesting question indeed. But too vague to understand reconciliation by whom?

I have spent most of my life in Northern India and I can assure u that the Bs dont feel as orphaned as they feel in TN. They are routinely inclusive in every sphere of activity from politics to films in all other states. Thanks to the DK and its cronies, Bs in TN get isolated to such an extent that the success of every B is viewed with suspicion and contempt - forget being applauded - be it J, V Anand, or Badrinath. Their success is never celebrated and their failures bring smiles to their fellow tamilians. It is a clear B Vs NB in TN which is not the case in any other state. A Maharshtrian or a Bengali is first seen as one rather than being a B or NB. Its only in TN that Bs are not seen as a part of tamil culture. They are pardesis in their own motherland. Give it a thought - will these same political parties fight against the death penality of Rajiv's killers if they were TBs? (Now that the world is made to believe that Shankaracharya of Kanchi could be a murderer, it wouldn't be wild to imagine that some TBs could have ended up being Rajiv's killers hypothetically). I can assure that MK or Vaiko wouldnt have even uttered a word in their defence - because they are Ts alright, but TBs - a category undeserving of such considertatiion in their view. And TBs have certainly reconciled to this fact. We dont even feel this isolation because we have developed complete immunity towards this malice.

TBs have long stopped practicing untouchability and brahminical rituals. There is certainly no threat to the society from such beliefs. In fact many brahmins are confirmed atheists and dont mind going to any place and eat anything. Yet, TBs are seen suspiciously, mocked at every opportunity from schools and colleges to films and serials. Yes TBs have reconciled to this fact too - that they are mockable and nothing can be done about it.

On the other hand, NBs are the ones who indulge in the worst form of untouchability and caste politics today. Most of them have shunned DKs atheist philosophy and have either turned believers or have got themselves converted. They know for sure, that they can never be threatened by the bhraminical order anymore - not here in TN, not anywhere in the world. Yet they seek satisfaction in speaking against the Bs, attacking them verbally and psychologically, wherever there is an opportunity (or even when there is none). In my view, it is for them to reconcile with the changed scenario and accept the TBs as their own. One complete generation of Bs has suffered without education, job and dignity since the days of independence (even before). Thousands have deserted TN to fend for their bellies - leaving behind their aged parents and owing now never to return. The present generation of TBs, the young ones have absolutely nothing to do with the beliefs and deeds of their ancestors. Why should they suffer this mockery, isolation and humiliation. It is clearly for the NB brothern of TN to reconcile to this bitter truth and accept them as thier own, just as every Yadav and Mayawati up north have done to their Bs. See them as Ts first and not as Bs.

well , did not bother reading bbeyond this post because this one sums up things pretty well. been in at least 6 - 7 north & west indian cities / stat es and well - i know what u mean.


i was not any close to brahmanism for a long time. but every thing here has only made me otherwise.

every time people abuse me through reservations and still call brahmans as the bad ones, every time brahmans are supposed to "un brahmanize" - as in, eat nv , speak local slang and swear words , not wear poonal / etc etc to make them capable of proper socializing , every time the movies here portray brahmans as a group which is only there to supply girls to nbs ( ffs, there are brahman boys too dam**) , every time i get the glare for speaking brahman language and every other thing that went on here - only one thing resulted - and that was me being pushed into my own brahman fold - and i am pretty happy about it.

all i am wondering is how the "great ones" here have not yet blocked you / your above post ...

without reading any further than your post, i am sure there would ve been a dozen to one ratio of people taking your post down ...

we all are a product of our environment and society, one way or the other.

 

[niyengaar]

The Recocilation is not so simple.The reconcilation of sub sects has to be the starting point.If that is accomplised then sects reconcillation should be the course.Then comes sects of Regions,,It goes on.By the time some sort of reconcilation is formed some where some sects,sub sects would have disintegrated.No hope. The same thing in political party.A parent party would have disintegrated into may factions.No reconcilation was possible,The basic Reason is 'EGO'. If the Ego is not gone no need for talk on reconcilations for it would not have disintegraed.
How ever I appreciae the sense for recociliation,
Alwan

nope Alwan,

reconciliation does not mean "losing ur identity" / "un-brahmanising" , to mingle. that is like saying hindus should muslims / muslims should becoem hindus if we need to socialize - not right.

it is about accepting others for what they are !

the two are very different.

i sure dont want a person who needs me to become different for him to accept to socialize with me.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The question is do Tamil Brahmins see themselves as Tamilians first? Do other non Tamils see Tamil Brahmins as just Tamilians? I'd hazard a guess that NO they don't nor do others from what I've observed. Most people see TamBrahms as just that, Tambrahms.

I mean here you have ethnic Tamils quickly followed by the caste and a whole new word Tambrahm. We never hear of other ethnic communities refer to themselves as TelBrahms or MalBrahms or GujBrahms or PunjBrahms.

I think Amala has got it backwards.

The affinity towards caste identity is strong in TN among most of the castes and NOT just brahmins. However you do not see other castes such as gounders, naidus, nadars, pillais etc being called tamil gounders, tamil naidus, tamil nadars, tamil pillais simply because their racial identity is never questioned. That is not the case with iyers and iyengars of TN. Their racial identity is constantly subjected to scrutiny and hence they try to reinforce the fact that they belong to the tamil race by calling themselves *******. This ethno-caste combination is not seen in other states because there is no need for it. Hence one does not see gujbrahmins or punjbrahmins etc. It does not set apart the ******* from other brahmins. It only sets apart the situation in TN from that of other states.

 

[Nara]

.... That is not the case with iyers and iyengars of TN. Their racial identity is constantly subjected to scrutiny and hence they try to reinforce the fact that they belong to the tamil race by calling themselves *******. This ethno-caste combination is not seen in other states because there is no need for it..

I don't want ot get in between the disagreement between KB and Amala, but I do want to comment on the above.

It is a well established fact that the TBs very carefully maintained their separateness from the rest of the Tamil population. In almost every walk of social life they created norms that separated them from the rest, from the clothes they wear, how they wear it, language, food habits, culture, the list goes on.

Anyone who is familiar with social life in Tamilnadu knows that one can't tell what caste group a person belongs to, except Brahmins. The moment a Brahmin opens his/her mouth and says anything, he/she will immediately stand out as a Brahmin. This is not just some accident of history, it is deliberate. They even have elaborate stories in the form of puranas to reinforce this mindset.

On the other hand, by and large, among the T-NBs, in spite of the sickeningly long list of castes and sub-castes, they have not separated themselves from each other in such all-pervading ways. There may be regional differences, one may be able to tell a Tanjore NB from a Coimbatore one or a Thiruneveli one. But within a region the NBs do not maintain outward exclusivity, except Brahmins.

This wall was raised and maintained by TBs. Having created and maintained this separate identity for so long and derived all the benefits therefrom, now, when this is no longer working to their advantage, accusing the rest of the Tamils of "constant scrutiny" is, to put it mildly, rewriting history.

Cheers!

p.s.
There is no Shudra and Non-Shudra separtation, but there is a TB - TNB one, why?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This wall was raised and maintained by TBs. Having created and maintained this separate identity for so long and derived all the benefits therefrom, now, when this is no longer working to their advantage, accusing the rest of the Tamils of "constant scrutiny" is, to put it mildly, rewriting history.

These arguments almost always end up with "who started it?" type accusation. Hence my aversion in entering into such arguments. Society is a complex organism and rules of causality can be easily flaunted to suit one's position.

However, I do want to point out that, contrary to Nara's accusation, I am not trying to rewrite history. Only that I am trying to include contemporary history also.

I did not make it clear before but I feel that the constant scrutiny of racial identity of brahmins of TN is a political creation. It is not, as Nara says, a direct result of brahmins speaking a different dialect or wearing a panjakacham saree or sporting a kudimi. Such distinction can be seen among other castes also. A significant percentage of people living in Madras, for example, are not even native tamil speakers.

I also want to point out that this thread, which talks about reconciliation between brahmins and the "rest", can even hope to make a small headway only if it can also bring in healthy participation from the "rest" living in TN. Because this is unlikely, given the title of this forum, there won't be much use to this thread.

My views regarding TN situation is well known. I feel brahmins leaving TN is the best thing that can happen for them. However, I do read this thread and some arguments put forth here only reinforces my understanding.

Oops, I almost forgot... all these are MHO

 

[Nara]

...My views regarding TN situation is well known. I feel brahmins leaving TN is the best thing that can happen for them.

There is another alternative though, but that involves a brutally honest reckoning of history and the present circumstance. Further, it involves shedding the separation and attitude of superiority. If that is hard to stomach, it is best they leave the Tamil country. My hope is that would only be a small minority. Most TBs I think will just merge with other caste groups into an aviyal of sorts in the next two or three generations and the history of TBs will be something to read from text books only.

Oops, I almost forgot... all these are MHO

Yes of course, please remember it.

Cheers!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The comments and discussions in this forum are lop sided.

Most of the members here are ones who have a problem integrating with rest of the population. Not many of the Tamil Brahmins who feel at home with other Tamilians irrespective of caste would become members of this forum. The subjects and the topics in the earlier days were always addressed to this problem of integration.

One of my sons speaks Dalit Tamil. Almost all his friends were from a Dalit colony nearby. Even after becoming a CEO of a company, he has no problem visiting his old haunts. In fact he is shown up by the colony residents as an example to emulate.

About language I remember the time when I visited madras after staying for some years in Coimbatore. In Coimbatore everyone is addressed with respect. In Madras one of the Auto wallahs asked me whether I am from Coimbatore. I still address all with Vanga, Ponga whether he is a coolie or auto rickshah driver. Then in one of the literary conferences someone asked me whether I am from Sri Lanka. I was then staying in Kerala. The Malyalam intonation and the Chenthamizh used by me made him think the I am a Yashppanam Tamil.

Nowadays we find in movies people speaking in Tamil dialects of different regions. Of course earlier novels were written in Tamil dialects. Nanchil Nadan writes mostly in Nanchil Nadu Namil. Jayakanthan used to change the language depending on the the region and caste to which the characters belonged.

If we have a Brahmin Tamil, we also have a Kongu nattu Tamil, Saiva Vellla Pillai tamil, Chetti Nattu Tamil and Nanchil Nattu Tamil.

Tamil Brahmins are leaving Tamil Nadu in search of better prospects. The days of the Government Jobs is over. I told my children that they should never take a job in the government or Public sector undertaking. Why? Because Merit is not recognized there. Even if it is recognized they can not give any special compensation for that.

Tamil Brahmins left Tamil Nadu for Calcutta and Bombay because jobs were available only there. There were hardly any jobs in private sector in Madras.

Tamil Brahmins are going to U.S because it is El Darodo for them land of riches. Not like the people of my generation who left for higher studies and landed up university jobs there and had to fight for tenure. They did not become rich.

All other communities are also leaving Tamil Nadu in search of better prospects. This is the nature of things.

No one left because of the local attitude towards Brahmins or harassment.

 

[sangom]

These arguments almost always end up with "who started it?" type accusation. Hence my aversion in entering into such arguments. Society is a complex organism and rules of causality can be easily flaunted to suit one's position.

However, I do want to point out that, contrary to Nara's accusation, I am not trying to rewrite history. Only that I am trying to include contemporary history also.

I did not make it clear before but I feel that the constant scrutiny of racial identity of brahmins of TN is a political creation. It is not, as Nara says, a direct result of brahmins speaking a different dialect or wearing a panjakacham saree or sporting a kudimi. Such distinction can be seen among other castes also. A significant percentage of people living in Madras, for example, are not even native tamil speakers.

I also want to point out that this thread, which talks about reconciliation between brahmins and the "rest", can even hope to make a small headway only if it can also bring in healthy participation from the "rest" living in TN. Because this is unlikely, given the title of this forum, there won't be much use to this thread.

My views regarding TN situation is well known. I feel brahmins leaving TN is the best thing that can happen for them. However, I do read this thread and some arguments put forth here only reinforces my understanding.

Oops, I almost forgot... all these are MHO

This thread, as I understand it, is about reconciliation between TBs and the rest of the Tamil society. Please see OP:

"my aim is to establish a equal and just society where no child/children feels unloved, unwanted and unprotected.

i would love to see a society which thrives on mutual support and respect. what can we do to attain that state and what do you think the obstacles are..."

According to me the above OP itself rests on a separatist feeling, a feeling that we TBs are not considered "by them" as part of them, etc. This betrays the typical Tabra mentality of the rest of the Tamil people ostracizing us and so on. Anyway you interpret it, whether through the (blindfolded) contemporary history (as KB indicates above) route of EVR>Anna>DK>DMK>MK, or just plain socio-economic basis of today, the one message that is sought to be conveyed is that the blame is on them and not at all on us.

To me this appears as a mere continuation of the separatist mentality that TBs have had for thousands of years (though some of our members are, as usual, prone to bring in immediately a few examples of isolated and personal cases where the tabras mingled with the lowest of castes in performing some agricultural activities in some village, or the absolute peace and harmony (superficial?) which prevailed in some agraharam or the other and the NBs living all around, etc.). It will be difficult to find Tamil Brahmin society of those times anywhere in Tamil Nadu treating the non-brahmins as just as much Tamil people as the brahmins themselves were, the same way the OP tries to express the yearning for a reconciliation today to be possibly initiated by them and again not us.

I have written earlier also in this forum that the only way for reconciliation, nay, even survival of the TB in today's TN is to wholeheartedly and unreservedly accept the fact that the NBs and SCs/STs are today occupying the privileged position in society just as the Tamil (and all other types of) Brahmins were occupying till perhaps 60 or 70 years ago; if today's NBs and SCs/STs are enjoying some benefits and advantages through undue, unethical methods, the TBs prior to 60 or 70 years from the present enjoyed their privileges on the basis of equally, if not more, unethical basis provided by ancient one-sided rules framed for the purpose of caste discrimination and supremacy of brahmins.

So, irrespective of anyone of us trying to rewrite history or otherwise, history will happen in its own sweet time and just as the NBs and SCs/STs had to suffer ignominy and all sorts of social disadvantages for close to 2500 or 3000 years, the TBs may have to suffer ostracization for an equal, and perhaps more, period; retribution for karma is not decided by Man but by eternal Law of Karma even according to the scriptures revered by brahmins.

If we TBs are not prepared to suffer for the next 2500 or 3000 years the ostracization, unloved, unwanted, unprotected and would prefer to have mutual support and respect from the so-called them, let the TBs form into associations and at the level of such associations go out to the rest of the Tamil Nadu society and spread the impression that we treat them as equals; in our milieu the best methods will be பந்தி போஜனம் (eating together in common rows), inter-caste marriages and united worship like performing bhajans together (like in the Ayyappa groups), inviting the non-brahmin friends for samashti and individual upanayanams and making the "vaTu" and his parents to do "abhivaadaye" to the NB elders also, etc. Let the TBs in TN start unting to form and register associations for this purpose and take these steps.

But I doubt if such suggestions will be welcome even to Carvaka who started this thread!