Is reconciliation possible

[Govinda]

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Whatever may be the opinions, the need of the hour is for the caste brahmins to reach out and absorb the vulnerable and marginalized sections of the Hindu population, without any further loss of time so that those people have less grounds to convert. But many memders in this Forum appear to be more intent upon "preserving" the 'Brahmin way of living' and ensuring that the "brahmin community" is preserved.

Some of us here, like Kunjuppu, Nara, HappyHindu and myself try to awaken the brahmin members and readers, about the ultimate futility of our clinging on to the "preservation of brahmins and the brahmin way of life""

Resp. Sangom,

We brahmins appreciate your pro-active approach. We don't want to be sitting ducks in a separate pond as you guys think [the group mentioned]. Lot of us are not even practising Brahmins in values (leave caste/religion alone), a repeated bashing will only drive them away.

I am really surprised how Iskcon or hindu organizations formed by western converts, can draw masses and promote good values. We all want to come up with strategies in bringing all the hindus back to the common value system [varna meant catogries of 'qualities' and initially the class organization was for better skill development, which over time became abusive only when survival failed].

Our Brahmins, so does everyone in other castes , is busy being selfish, making money, their own time is precious, their own family and priorities. We have become business-like (vaishyAs) even in our dealings of gods. Rather than the shAstris involving only in rituals, We should start to embrace our own youth and people in volunteering temple kainkaryams, arrange discourses, the richer should offer to gift philosophical books and bind the people to become members of such organizations, which would involve them in value based living and also arrange to resolve conflicts in domestic issues [as someone already suggested]. We don't need to leave jobs (as the current society is driven by western job/office system), We need a rigorous change in our own attitudes in our service to the family, religion/god and also to the society. This will soon take a ripple effect, and draw more people to the fold.

If Zakir Naik can impress an ample audience, because he knows our vedic quotes and science information [with blah blah's..], plus backed by govt. voting agenda, with scary guards. Why would our hindus go there and challenge them, without reading our 20 philosophical systems/debates [that debated our vedanta/reality inquiry]?

Don't tell me, we brahmins kept everyone in the dark without giving access to our scriptures! In the ancient days, Brahmins were only learning vedas and given dhAna/charity by the Kings/vaishyas [Vashishta/Janaka vs Rama]. Rama was given a complete discourse by those rishis and there existed fishermen/sudras like Kuhan, only the challenging tribes like yaksha (of deccan area, norht east, lanka borders) were threatened. Krishna's Mahabharata, there were no brahmin leads except Drona, Kripa, but were killed in battle, but sudras like Vidura/Vyasa and Bhimsa were considered realized. So, they all followed a common dharama (based on 'qualities') and excelled in vedic knowledge, [irrespective of Varna]. All 3 varnas were sporting Poonal/learning vedas, sudras were 'other than vedic' were just the absorbed immigrants (after losing war with our kings) were also given kingdoms, the outsider kings became kshatriyas [Manu Smriti even had the list of 100's of mixed varnas of those days]. Most of them looked similar in adherence to the dharmic priciples and practices. Even during Gupta period which focussed on art/architecture, embraced all the artisans and gave lands [even to Brahmins who were earlier barred from land donations]. Those days, everyone survived and had a livelihood some way or the other. Only when basic livelihood is threatened, people resort to competitions or other means. Also, when tens of thousands of years, we all lived peacefully and growing together absorbing many tribes/cultures, how did Brahminism [part of the same common dharma] became the enemy recently?

 

[Govinda]

The Hindutva parties have come to be looked upon with suspicion as a party of the forward castes and they also do not seem to be sincere in bringing the lower and Dalit sections within their fold.

I totally agree with this issue. In the recent news, the dalits of Mumbai were disappointed when Rahul didn't turn up for a gathering. Even though they have suffered so much, esp. in the last 100 years in the name of British slavery, neglect, and abuse due to stupidity (by caste politics), they still want to attach themselves to our nationality and religion/gods. It is definitely our duty to embrace people of all walks and given the knowledge of our scriptures/messages. They should be given access to the temples and should be given decent jobs.

Brahmins, though even now maintain some hygiene, recently started visiting the fast foods/tea stalls/restaurants (sharing same cups sipped million times, oil boiled hundreds of times, the pans never washed, the rotis burnt - a cause of cancer), but think that eating them is healthy, when they forgot the basics of health and preventing diseases, but trying to be smart about curative measures . Health doesn't lie only on the ingredients, but also in the root means of procuring/using them. Those running tea stalls, their ancestors were once spiritual adherents, offered foods to the manes/gods and ate only such etable prasadam and shared freely. See, how British comletely ruined our root values based on hygiene ! When the west was haunted by plagues, a highly populated India then, lived healthy and prosperous. Now, see the fundamental glitch in Indian spirituality, this would make us think, how is it going to be different if eaten in a muslim household? Vedic discipline becomes Koran that way soon India needs a big lesson on health, basic hygiene and attitudes more than solving poverty We are all business like, anything cannot be given free in the western commodity/economy system. The tonnes of produce would be wasted in indian godowns, but wouldn't be distributed to the poor. We wouldn't have had this attitude back then in our dharma!

Brahmins never wore stichted clothes, tended to their own domestic needs like american system, use outskirt toilets, own agraharams (supported by landlords eg: cholas/naikkars) to take care of temples etc, so, they had nothing to do with slavery or anything. With the Moghuls and British, temples being sacked and british considered our arts/practies as un-civilized, thus artisans lost their jobs/livelyhood. They and the islam converts were finally engaged to serve the british, in menial jobs [they brought the stupid toilet system, the beginning of scavenging, polishing boots, making beef rifles...] etc.. Now in the name of comforts, monetary status, last 2 decades we have take outsiders for domestic help. Why we do that? There is infact no Brahmin supremacy, we only have Monetary Status/Supremacy instead . In that case, the car drivers and the domestic help are NBs, why don't they employ poor brahmins and educate their kids? To promote social equality, lot of hindu organizations create awareness in keeping the streets, public places, which would get rid of menial jobs.

British intially employed uppercaste people in the Army, the seopy mutiny Act(1957) led wide revolt and killings. When Queen took over East India Company (1858), all these upper caste people were absorbed in govt. offices/projects to avoid revolts, thus the brahmins and uppercaste took a chance to develop their struggling lives, by 1960, they were established in all white collar jobs/schools. This led to the concern of EVR, by 1970, who wanted reservations for those in lower classes that were neglected for some 20 years. This neglect has nothing to do with Brahmin supremacy, but just the British opportunism and proposal. But , Upper castes could have thought about such reservations on their own! There was and is a considerable amount fo Brahmins who still remain in poverty lines, but they don't cry foul on equality!! Why?? We brahmins never revolted a bad idea nor supported a good cause in public. We are silent enjoyers and silent sufferers. In that case, they should atleast try to fix the basic value system.

EVR (a rich landlord) once went on a trip to north india and saw another vaishya fed only the brahmins and he was not cared for. He says , this was just the beginning of Brahmin bashing. an ego claim. This is similar to the British cheap attitude, that Brahmin unchavrutti is like demanding a share rather than charity. This is not a case of Brahmins isolation or supremacy, just that India was ripped completely bare and people suffered everywhere, and everyone just wanted to survive. Seems like EVR paid deaf ears to the dominance existed among his own caste group, Nadans who treated their own nadar tree-climbers as slaves whose women couldnt wear upper clothes (kerala) which provoked them to become Nadar christians. There were more instances of inter-mingling, absorbing into each other castes/varnas, while few simply maintained them for boasting or getting recognition, but still lead a more dharmic life most of the times. All these basic values degraded after the British era. The politicians messed up the rest completely.

 

[biswa]

Bravo! Well said!

Both sides of the debate have made their points well. But at the end of the day we have to ask what should we strive for? Integration or separation? This applies not just to B & NBs but to all castes.

Please think and decide which path is better for your family, your state and your country.

I think of reconciliation in these ways (all of which applies to anyone irrespective of caste) --

1) Please stop assigning varnas, for they have no relevance in democracy.

2) In private spiritual life, those who are moving into different secular jobs please give up the jaathi and varna of your great-grand-parents / parents. Don't say "Indian Government labels me so, hence i am chettiar". Please do not forget Indian constitution was "created" that way by those who wanted birth-rights. Making an egalitarian honest inclusive society (from now on atleast) is in your hands.

3) Allow vedic education, agama training, or just any form of spiritual studies to anyone based on his merit, proclivity and ability alone (and not on his father's caste).

4) Have open discourses (by including people of any occupation/caste/creed) on philosophies to develop them better.

5) Every hindu family must support temples and traditional art forms. Let temples play a proactive vibrant role in bringing various people together.

6) Genuinely accept a human for what s/he is; and please forget about caste.

 

[Nara]

Raju, even though I mostly disagree with what you have said, I am happy to see the by and large civil tone, I welcome it, let us maintain this civility as much as we can.

My first disagreement is about the conflation of regional differences and caste-based differences. Brahmins from different regions do use words unique to the region, but, it is undeniable that Brahmins across the board, irrespective of region, have a separate dialect all their own, nothing like the rest of the Tamil society. Often, this is portrayed in cinema to the chagrin of TBs who complain of mocking.

Further, it is my considered opinion, take it or leave it, others also do it is a weak excuse. Today's reality is, TBs stand isolated in many ways from the rest of the society. Even the Dalits who suffer direct and violent oppression only from the caste NB Hindus, despise Brahminism and Brahmins most and find common cause with those you carelessly dismiss as "self-serving Atheists" and "European wisdom". This is not wise.

Anyway, reconciliation can come only when the Brahmin identity which is mainly supremacist, withers away. The trend is in that direction only, it is inevitable. The wise will get on to the right side of history.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

If wishes were horses...!

In India, is there any state where the police acts free of intrusions from the ruling party?

300 years back a palli / paraya / paniyalar wud never have dreamt of becoming a land-owner. At that time his wishes were horses, but they came true in late colonial-india...

so well its all about a new beginning somewhere...

i do beleive the indian police (with the kind of training IPS officers receive) would have been one of the best anywhere, ONLY if there is no political interference...

if an introspective society begins at the grassroots free of corruption, that itself is a new beginning...

 

[கால பைரவன்]

300 years back a palli / paraya / paniyalar wud never have dreamt of becoming a land-owner. At that time his wishes were horses, but they came true in late colonial-india...

No matter what HH writes outwardly about integration etc, taunts such as these reflect her position with respect to members of this forum. I wonder whether this part of her response would have been included if this were a different forum.

so well its all about a new beginning somewhere...

i do beleive the indian police (with the kind of training IPS officers receive) would have been one of the best anywhere, ONLY if there is no political interference...

if an introspective society begins at the grassroots free of corruption, that itself is a new beginning...

The fundamental problem is the adhoc power a politician (and a party) has with regards to material benefits that he can confer on various groups. Mostly this grouping is based on caste or religion. But adhoc benefits to other groups of people (like police force or civil servants) is also possible. For example, the loyalty of TN government employees to DMK is well known. This is true for the central government as well. The nexus between political parties and government servants can be broken only if such adhocness is removed from the political system.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Further, it is my considered opinion, take it or leave it, others also do it is a weak excuse.

Normally, this can be considered a valid point. But not in this case. Here brahmins are charged with having a separatist attitude. Separateness from what? - rest of the society. But the problem is in the very grouping of the rest of the society as one group. The charge made against brahmins is relative to these other groups. Hence the rebuttal that the rest of the society being non-homogenous is an appropriate response to the charge and not weak.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

i personally think, it is better to be two steps ahead of where the society is moving, than two steps behind.

peace.

I have no issues with the suggestion that brahmins take the initiative for reconciliation or integration or whatever one may feel that is good for the society. But I object to:

1. Shifting the blame entirely on brahmins.

2. Wholesome condemnation of the supposed attitudes or beliefs of brahmins.

3. Postulating that any extent of reverse discrimination that the brahmins are subjected to is fair and deserved.

 

[suraju06]

Raju, even though I mostly disagree with what you have said, I am happy to see the by and large civil tone, I welcome it, let us maintain this civility as much as we can.

My first disagreement is about the conflation of regional differences and caste-based differences. Brahmins from different regions do use words unique to the region, but, it is undeniable that Brahmins across the board, irrespective of region, have a separate dialect all their own, nothing like the rest of the Tamil society. Often, this is portrayed in cinema to the chagrin of TBs who complain of mocking.

Further, it is my considered opinion, take it or leave it, others also do it is a weak excuse. Today's reality is, TBs stand isolated in many ways from the rest of the society. Even the Dalits who suffer direct and violent oppression only from the caste NB Hindus, despise Brahminism and Brahmins most and find common cause with those you carelessly dismiss as "self-serving Atheists" and "European wisdom". This is not wise.

Anyway, reconciliation can come only when the Brahmin identity which is mainly supremacist, withers away. The trend is in that direction only, it is inevitable. The wise will get on to the right side of history.

Cheers!

Mr. Nara,

I believe what we give comes back to us quickly. As the intensity of argument progresses and when civility is dropped, it is met with equally or more ferocious counters. I am sure you know this.

In the tamil movies of an earlier time when the language that was used for dialogue delivery was mostly the so called 'brahmin' tamil there were no objections and there were no cat calls in the theaters. In fact all cine goers(this included a large number of other castes) enjoyed the movies and thronged the theaters. It was as simple and natural as that. It is only after the pseudo atheist crowd of periyar took over that the poison was injected and mocking started. This is the historic truth.

Any community which is far more resourceful/successful than the other communities will be isolated for various reasons. This is inevitable and harmless as a social process as long as this is not converted into hatred. Dalits are not with other castes in hitting brahmins. They are largely indifferent to brahmins. They ignore them as extreme loonies. And brahmins can live with that as they further move ahead in life. I am not saying that others are also doing so we do it. I am just saying others only do this and dump the blame on us for their weird behavior.

Brahmin identity is not supremacist but certainly it is pragmatist. To be aware of one's own strengths and weaknesses is neither a crime nor a sin. Brahmins never rub it on others. Rather this awareness helps brahmins lead a noble life and that is what ultimately matters-despite all the denigration, jaundiced scrutiny, time worn stupid name calling with the handed down wisdom of myopic European visitors.

Cheers.

 

[subbudu1]

Raju, even though I mostly disagree with what you have said, I am happy to see the by and large civil tone, I welcome it, let us maintain this civility as much as we can.

My first disagreement is about the conflation of regional differences and caste-based differences. Brahmins from different regions do use words unique to the region, but, it is undeniable that Brahmins across the board, irrespective of region, have a separate dialect all their own, nothing like the rest of the Tamil society. Often, this is portrayed in cinema to the chagrin of TBs who complain of mocking.

Further, it is my considered opinion, take it or leave it, others also do it is a weak excuse. Today's reality is, TBs stand isolated in many ways from the rest of the society. Even the Dalits who suffer direct and violent oppression only from the caste NB Hindus, despise Brahminism and Brahmins most and find common cause with those you carelessly dismiss as "self-serving Atheists" and "European wisdom". This is not wise.

Anyway, reconciliation can come only when the Brahmin identity which is mainly supremacist, withers away. The trend is in that direction only, it is inevitable. The wise will get on to the right side of history.

Cheers!

In a recent trip to chennai , I witnessed good friendship between the youngsters of different communities - between brahmin and non brahmin youths. This seems much unlike my days when one can make out one's caste by the friend circle one is surrounded with. I hear that brahmins and non brahmins share the same plate and spoon while eating in roadside places, beaches and colleges- much unthinkable from the past. The trend is positive. These differences are dissolving, the dress is now the same, language is getting standardized. It is a very interesting trend.

 

[suraju06]

Sangom said in #74:

Our - if I may take the liberty of speaking for others like Kunjuppu, Nara, Happy Hindu, etc. - attempt is only to present to the large number of readers, a true account of hinduism and the role that the brahmins played in it, without twisting or "whitewashing" facts, (calling a spade a spade so to say) in order that we, the brahmins of today do not feel very much justified and nor feel unnecessarily and unduly proud about our history and heritage.

"A true account"--as it appears to the four+ of you. The truth is certainly quite different.

"In order that ...brahmins.........do not feel very much justified/nor feel unnecessarily and unduly proud about our history and heritage".--If there is a history it is about the Indian/tamil society as a whole and in this brahmins have nothing to feel ashamed of and there is nothing to feel proud of either. The history is just history, a narration of how our ancestors lived-this includes living in caves, living naked, killing wantonly and a whole lot of such things. If we have to feel ashamed of any such thing we will have no place to hide ourselves in this universe. If brahmins have nothing to feel proud of or ashamed of then there is nothing that other tamils/indians have either.

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

This is not true the way it is presented here. All special characteristics of spoken language have their base in regions from which the speakers hail. A TB from Tirunelveli speaks quite a different dialect of Tamil than the one from Tanjore area. Some of the words used by the TB from Tirunelveli have never been heard of by a TB from Tanjore. So among the two who is the Brahmin and who is not a brahmin based on your standard reference book of brahmin tamil? Or is it that one group has rebelled against the other and started its own tamil vocabulary? When a brahmin opens his mouth he stands out because of his cultural traits and values which reflect in what he speaks and not because he is a brahmin who has deliberately chosen to speak in a certain way. To look for a well planned scheme/agenda in/behind such simple things requires a very complicated and antogonistic mindset. If any thing that is what is displayed here in gay abundance.

What I have said is not a lonely voice. Mr. Nachinarkiniyan has said similarly in his post #49 in this thread as follows: “If we have a Brahmin Tamil, we also have a Kongu nattu Tamil, Saiva Vellla Pillai tamil, Chetti Nattu Tamil and Nanchil Nattu Tamil”.

Cheers.

Well said, Shri Suraju06...

I agree with every para of your post #99.

I have quoted here just only one of your para regarding different dialect, as that is the crystal clearly visible proof for any one to witness himself/herself.

I am really disheartened to find people saying, Tamil Brahmins have exclusively distinguised themselves from other Tamilians, that too, deliberately, in order to achieve Brahmins supremacy...

 

[kunjuppu]

personally,

no matter what we may discuss here, things will sort itself out. not because of external threats. but because it is the right thing.

so far in our history, we have been bound by the manu's laws and such like. since 1947, thanks largely due to the influence of liberal and sensible thinking, we have acknowledged, as a society, the wrongs of the past.

that in 1950, we pledged, as a society, to give special privileges for the dalits, is itself, an admission of guilt; wrong that must be righted, and a small first step was acknowledged in the constitution.

with more enlightenment spreading across more of the populace, with greater awareness of the power of vote, with the emancipation of womenfolk, with advances in technology, particularly related to communication and data processing, the world of today, is a new order. it is a topsy, if not a turvy, from the world of our great grandfathers and beyond that.

what was held true for milleniums, is today, something to be ashamed of. no one, i repeat no one, in this forum, would ever treat a dalit the way, our ancestors did. our sensitivies and sense of fairness has changed. we have come to look upon, anyone with a human form, as an individual, and not an object.

let me elaborate on this: i remember in my youth, particularly at grandma's house, the most intimate of family affairs used to be discussed among family members, even when the maid was present. i figure now, that we did that, because we did not consider the maid a 'human' equal to us. in today's world, the maid is a professional, balancing her rationed time to us and other households, and definitely we have a greater interaction with her, if the behaviour of any of my chennai relations are the norms.

caste as an identity will remain. we may move from one caste to another. in a recent vijay tv's 'neeya naana', almost 100% of the participants preferred marriage within caste - most of the reasons irrelevant in today's urban nuclear family environment. but our racial memories are long and are not so easily changed. which is the reason, why we still go for jadhagam poruthal or insist that the boy earns more than the girl in a marriage situation.

some of the changes will be forced, not through law but due to circumstances. the namboothri bachelors opted to marry orphans, for today's namboothri girls would not comply to live with the regimens expected of a priest's wife. but nobody here or anywhere talked of changing the requirements of a priest's wife.

why cannot she wear jeans, apply lipstick and have an office career. is there anything wrong with that? what is happening, is that if someone's ideas or practices become calcified beyond the norms of the community at large, they get left out. no amount of money will attract an unwilling bride - which brings out another interesting point. i still remember my girl cousins entering certain marriages, unwillingly, after the brief ponn paarthal, to some really unsavoury looking guys. but this happened 45 years ago when such things were the norms. today's girls, more than the tambram boys, appear to be more adventurous, seeking out ic and ir relationships, much to the detriment of bride availability within the community.

so, maybe, our priest bachelors, might break the law, if not all of them, but a few, and seek orphans as their spouses. the minute they do this, they have broken the unsaid but strongly believed faith, that all of us have an unbroken brahmincal lineage, as we espouse in our abhivaadhey. the concept of 'pure brahmin', which even in this forum was a topic for discussion a couple of days back, is more a figment of fond imagination, than reality. scientific dna tests have already proved that those of us south of the vindhyas, have common dna, irrespective of caste. i have relatives ranging in complexion, from kashmiri fairness to charcoal dark, and sadly, there is more resistance to colour mingling within the caste than without. the 'kaLai' of a fair north indian groom married to my cousin, is admired, whereas, a love marriage to a darkskinned tambram, is frowned.

outside of india, casteless hinduism is a reality. folks like renu and such are the future of the hindu persona - religious and casteless. whereas these can identify strongly with some of the most traditional minded folks here re tenets of the faith, would any of these traditionalists consider giving their daughter to a casteless hindu? perhaps not today. but tomorrow? if the couple wishes, the parents have no say. and that in itself is a eon of improvement, towards reconciliation.

i am hopeful. reconcilaition is not a one day or a one year process. it is a gradual change of community attitudes, driven by many factors, the most powerful of which, is something, that we call 'luvv marriage'. with increased luvv marriages, reconciliation will only speed up, despite or irrespective of what the older generation may feel. and that is not a bad thing after all to happen!

jai reconciliation!!

 

[happyhindu]

caste as an identity will remain. we may move from one caste to another. in a recent vijay tv's 'neeya naana', almost 100% of the participants preferred marriage within caste - most of the reasons irrelevant in today's urban nuclear family environment. but our racial memories are long and are not so easily changed. which is the reason, why we still go for jadhagam poruthal or insist that the boy earns more than the girl in a marriage situation.

Lovely note sir.

As regards Neeya Naana, i believe marriage is about comfort zone so i wud not comment on that. However, as regards caste-awareness, i feel most people have no idea how the present day caste system came about. As awareness grows, i feel the younger generation will find one more reason to shrug it off...caste-awareness will remain ofcourse, but varna-system i feel will be thrown to dungheap of history sooner or later...

Regards.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr Kunjuppu - this is your #112,

no matter what we may discuss here, things will sort itself out. not because of external threats. but because it is the right thing.
so far in our history, we have been bound by the manu's laws and such like. since 1947, thanks largely due to the influence of liberal and sensible thinking, we have acknowledged, as a society, the wrongs of the past.
that in 1950, we pledged, as a society, to give special privileges for the dalits, is itself, an admission of guilt; wrong that must be righted, and a small first step was acknowledged in the constitution.
with more enlightenment spreading across more of the populace, with greater awareness of the power of vote, with the emancipation of womenfolk, with advances in technology, particularly related to communication and data processing, the world of today, is a new order. it is a topsy, if not a turvy, from the world of our great grandfathers and beyond that.
what was held true for milleniums, is today, something to be ashamed of. no one, i repeat no one, in this forum, would ever treat a dalit the way, our ancestors did. our sensitivies and sense of fairness has changed. we have come to look upon, anyone with a human form, as an individual, and not an object.
let me elaborate on this: i remember in my youth, particularly at grandma's house, the most intimate of family affairs used to be discussed among family members, even when the maid was present. i figure now, that we did that, because we did not consider the maid a 'human' equal to us. in today's world, the maid is a professional, balancing her rationed time to us and other households, and definitely we have a greater interaction with her, if the behaviour of any of my chennai relations are the norms.
caste as an identity will remain. we may move from one caste to another. in a recent vijay tv's 'neeya naana', almost 100% of the participants preferred marriage within caste - most of the reasons irrelevant in today's urban nuclear family environment. but our racial memories are long and are not so easily changed. which is the reason, why we still go for jadhagam poruthal or insist that the boy earns more than the girl in a marriage situation.
some of the changes will be forced, not through law but due to circumstances. the namboothri bachelors opted to marry orphans, for today's namboothri girls would not comply to live with the regimens expected of a priest's wife. but nobody here or anywhere talked of changing the requirements of a priest's wife.
why cannot she wear jeans, apply lipstick and have an office career. is there anything wrong with that? what is happening, is that if someone's ideas or practices become calcified beyond the norms of the community at large, they get left out. no amount of money will attract an unwilling bride - which brings out another interesting point. i still remember my girl cousins entering certain marriages, unwillingly, after the brief ponn paarthal, to some really unsavoury looking guys. but this happened 45 years ago when such things were the norms. today's girls, more than the tambram boys, appear to be more adventurous, seeking out ic and ir relationships, much to the detriment of bride availability within the community.
so, maybe, our priest bachelors, might break the law, if not all of them, but a few, and seek orphans as their spouses. the minute they do this, they have broken the unsaid but strongly believed faith, that all of us have an unbroken brahmincal lineage, as we espouse in our abhivaadhey. the concept of 'pure brahmin', which even in this forum was a topic for discussion a couple of days back, is more a figment of fond imagination, than reality. scientific dna tests have already proved that those of us south of the vindhyas, have common dna, irrespective of caste. i have relatives ranging in complexion, from kashmiri fairness to charcoal dark, and sadly, there is more resistance to colour mingling within the caste than without. the 'kaLai' of a fair north indian groom married to my cousin, is admired, whereas, a love marriage to a darkskinned tambram, is frowned.
outside of india, casteless hinduism is a reality. folks like renu and such are the future of the hindu persona - religious and casteless. whereas these can identify strongly with some of the most traditional minded folks here re tenets of the faith, would any of these traditionalists consider giving their daughter to a casteless hindu? perhaps not today. but tomorrow? if the couple wishes, the parents have no say. and that in itself is a eon of improvement, towards reconciliation.
i am hopeful. reconcilaition is not a one day or a one year process. it is a gradual change of community attitudes, driven by many factors, the most powerful of which, is something, that we call 'luvv marriage'. with increased luvv marriages, reconciliation will only speed up, despite or irrespective of what the older generation may feel. and that is not a bad thing after all to happen!
jai reconciliation!!

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

1. Right and wrong are relative terms depending on the individual perceptions.
2. As a society and a civilization spanning several centuries we do have horrendous blunders and their effect in our balance sheet. But these were not perceived as mistakes at the time when they were committed.
3. The mistakes that were committed by way of putting down a section of the society was done by a majority of the community and hence no one section can particularly be held accountable for that. If it was a mistake it was a mistake of the society and if it was a sin the entire community were sinners.
4. In view of 2 and 3 above there is no need to feel guilty or ashamed. The need is to ecognize that our society was aboriginal in its practices at that time and if we can we should make amends to help that section of the society which was at the receiving end at those times. The mad rush to include every Tom Dick and Harry to include himself and make a demand for special treatment is some thing that we should be ashamed of. Already a large number of such crowd is enjoying the national resources in the name of undeserving victimhood claims.
5. Time is a great alchemist. Changes are inevitable and are good. But changes should also be orderly as otherwise it will be chaotic and may cause a lot of injury to the society.
6. As you have said caste as an identity is to remain can remain as people peceive advantages in continuing it.But caste discrimination can not be allowed to exist as it is barbaric.
7. Indian women are more resourceful and intelligent than the men. It is because of them that the society has progressed this far. So in due course of time they will certainly dominate the society.
8. Luv marriages may not solve any problem.
9. IR and IC marriages by themselves are not a panacea. They creat more problems than solutions. What more, the problems they create are unsolvable. When harmones attennuate the thinking process and make two people discard age-old wisdom the issues are all swept under carpet for some years until they come out one day and stare at you. Of course I agree that there can be different views on this.

After reading your post I thought I should put down these thoughts to balance.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

This thread has turned out to be interesting with various views from various people...

I also watched the video intellectual terrorism by Radha Rajan (just sometime back). Three years back i may have found some resonance with some things she said.

I find it sorta comical that hindu nationalists refrain from speaking about smrithis and slavery.

Perhaps its sort of a play on a stage to see the many excuses and obfuscations tried by some 'brahmins'. I suppose everything has been tried.

The biggest canard (to me) is that hinduism cannot survive without brahmanism. Hindu worship forms have existed since ages. No one needs brahmanism (labour laws) to help them to survive.

To me, warriors claiming to be 'brahmins' upholding "divine labour laws of smritis / dharmashastras" are the biggest blight upon hinduism.

I don't understand what sort of a system it was to supress a man in slavery and then portray oneself as 'cultured'.....i feel the more cruel they got, the more such warriors borrowed a hallowed spiritual image for themselves.

After understanding how the feudal system and smrithis went hand in hand there is no doubt left in me that 'brahmins' (ie, smrithi followers) merely benefitted themselves.

Problem is the aam aadmi does not even know the difference between temple priests and smrithi-following 'brahmins'...

Manusmrithi downgraded the temple priests (devalaykan). These temple priests must have been poor and fighting for their rights since chola times.

It is unfortunate that even today the ones paying the price for all the smrithi-canard are the unfortunate temple priests who had nothing to do with smrithis....Strange world indeed....

Its also strange that politicians, big shots, etc 'admired' the preachings of smrithis. The strangest is the propaganda that smrithis are ideal and applicable in all ages, or all times.

If we really want to put past behind, i hope 'preachings' transform themselves into something that is applicable for present times...

 

[carvaka]

"

1. As a society and a civilization spanning several centuries we do have horrendous blunders and their effect in our balance sheet. But these were not perceived as mistakes at the time when they were committed.
2. The mistakes that were committed by way of putting down a section of the society was done by a majority of the community and hence no one section can particularly be held accountable for that. If it was a mistake it was a mistake of the society and if it was a sin the entire community were sinners.
3. In view of 2 and 3 above there is no need to feel guilty or ashamed. The need is to ecognize that our society was aboriginal in its practices at that time and if we can we should make amends to help that section of the society which was at the receiving end at those times. The mad rush to include every Tom Dick and Harry to include himself and make a demand for special treatment is some thing that we should be ashamed of. Already a large number of such crowd is enjoying the national resources in the name of undeserving victimhood claims.
4. Time is a great alchemist. Changes are inevitable and are good. But changes should also be orderly as otherwise it will be chaotic and may cause a lot of injury to the society.
5. As you have said caste as an identity is to remain can remain as people peceive advantages in continuing it.But caste discrimination can not be allowed to exist as it is barbaric.
6. Indian women are more resourceful and intelligent than the men. It is because of them that the society has progressed this far. So in due course of time they will certainly dominate the society.
7. Luv marriages may not solve any problem.
8. IR and IC marriages by themselves are not a panacea. They creat more problems than solutions. What more, the problems they create are unsolvable. When harmones attennuate the thinking process and make two people discard age-old wisdom the issues are all swept under carpet for some years until they come out one day and stare at you. Of course I agree that there can be different views on this.

"


I am not sure if I would have felt and believed so assured to write these comments. The effects of mistakes that were committed long ago would keep manifesting in different forms of difficulties. It would be difficult for a society to have multiple layers of values and ethics, more so as we have accepted the concept of nation state. If we had not been a nation state, we would not have an economy that impacts every household. There would not have been a great need for a farmer to try to exceed his production year-on-year as he would not require anything from the rest of the society, when we did not have the concept of nation state. Nation state has centralized the economy and has imposed, unfortunate and unnecessary(in my pov), restrictions/conditions on the citizen to do certain things certain ways like making formal paid education mandatory for becoming qualified to practice a profession. The mistakes that were committed in the past disadvantage the under privileged people for generations, as it demands their society to ramp up to the rest at an unacceptable pace. So our social contract to function as a democratic nation state has mandated certain milestones and one of them is to build a country which would not have multiple layers of ethics and values. Unlike when in a state of anarchy, if you do not act violently against a tribe, nobody has an obligation towards another; atleast theorotically, though it would still ask us to be humane but still people could have survived without paid formal education to become eligible to practice a profession. We were feeding the people of the country, treating the sick even before we had formal education introduced amongst us. Now I am not saying that I am arguing for or against the nation state but I am just bringing some perspective here.

And feeling guilty has, for so many years, helped us human beings start reasoning and understand the importance of reasoning. I fully agree that its the individuals prerogative to feel or not but definitely would be responsible for his actions.

I do not know if "Luv" marriages would solve or would not solve problems but I believe that they belong to the domain of freewill where a man/woman is free to choose to live the way he/she wants.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Mr. Karvaka,
I , firstly congratulate you for the elaborate write-up. it covers all the thoughts/ ideas/ practicality & everything. It is high time that, we, Tamil brahmins earnestly proceed with the proposals already initiated, and perhaps making some head way, let all us join to make it effective .
much needed help to the needy among the poorer people/ families & ensure on Education / Financial assistance/ Job assistance & whatever, including assistance for health/ treatments. Let us all co-operate with the Leader of the Forum, to succeed.

A.Srinivasan ( rishikesan)

 

[carvaka]

Dear Srini,

contribution to human kind in whatever form would be the greatest boon...glad that I have had the privilege to see people like Kunjuppu, Nara and others...

and the fortunate are those who are loved and love all

 

[happyhindu]

I am not sure if I would have felt and believed so assured to write these comments. The effects of mistakes that were committed long ago would keep manifesting in different forms of difficulties...

Dear Charvaka,

Let me put it this way.

A few thousand years ago, all of us lived in jungles, in caves, as nomadic or semi-nomadic people, etc.

In each person's ancestry there will be stone age hunters, primitive cannibals, sinners and saints.

The same applies to each one's soul journey also. When we were heidelbergensis what sort of lives did we live....

If we go on making an account of past 'mistakes' there will be no end to it at various levels.

Understanding the past is not to justify past mistakes, nor to hold anyone guilty.

It may be possible that portions of a system, in the past, came about because that was the level of understanding people had at that time..

By understanding past, we get a clear picture of how things were, how they turned out to be, and how we can make a better life from now onwards.

I beleive everyone (irrespective of 'caste') would like to leave the past behind and move ahead..

The only problem comes when some 'brahmins' in the PRESENT time, try to represent 'brahmanism' (labour laws) as the core of hinduism, and justify that horrendous smrithis (with their labour laws) are applicable for all times.

Some 'smriti-followers' feel they are 'spiritual' people who have been selected that way thru "natural selection". Its a 'position' they wud not like to share with others.

And ofcourse to such smrithi-followers, everyone has been compartmentalized (including 'shudras'), because they 'deserved' it...ofcourse what they convey is that smarthas descended from spiritual souls while shudras descended from wretched souls.

To such people varna is by birth, and strictly speaking a "varna change" is not possible -- what a great way to justify slavery by birth and claim a 'birth-right' to brahmajnana...

Then ofcourse according to the smrithis only the 'brahmin' had the right to interpret the shastras (which basically means they could obfuscate as much as they wanted, so even if some smrithis allowed some leeway it wud still depend on the 'brahmins' who were dispensing smrithi-laws).

To justify means to an end, what have you with interpolations even in upanishads, contradictory statements even within one smrithi, various interpretations to suit just this one class, and re-interpretations to reinforce their claims...

Unfortunately, people increasingly seem to understand what is what, except some 'brahmins' themselves.

The sooner we get rid of smrithi laws, the better it is for hinduism. If such a thing happens, nobody will find the need to convert to other religions..

Imagine an india without caste-based politics, reservations, corruption, where people stand up for one another without blaming it on a skewed up form of 'karma'..

Maybe we can see the start of a golden-era..

 

[valli]

Dear Friends

This question is on my mind for a long.... time! I am posting it here since the thread title says that 'Is reconciliation possible'!

Here the OP is talking about the reconciliation between B and others! Alright, good!

It is so... difficult for that situation to happen when there is no reconciliation within one's own family even in 2011!!!!!!!!

Here I am going to give the true details about my immediate girl cousin.

She married a NB. He is also a Hindu! The parents though now accepted her, still don't allow her even to partake in the 'Thevasams' of her grandparents! If she eats the food then she will contaminate the whole family!!!

To top that up, the parents have told my akka (cousin - Periyappa pen) not to attend their death ceremony and not to stay and partake the food, since that will make her elder brother contaminated!!! They fear that he will be excommunicated!!!!

You know how much heartache she carries till this date and how much she has cried?? Oh, not because she married a good man - he is the gem of a person! But because of the attitude of the brahmin parents'!!

I know of many many love marriage couples! As far as I have seen, NO nonbrahmin families exclude their daughter from attending to either their death ceremonies or the in-laws death ceremonies.

My akka, even though born and brought up in a typical B family feels/made to feel like a downtrodden/Sudhra person by her own family and by ALL her relatives!

If this is the case for a brahmin girl then what do you say guys for a NB or a Dalit/Sc/St??????

Is reconciliation REALLY possible?

P.S. Any person over here who has not felt this experience CANNOT relate to it and please don't IMMEDIATELY take sides! I am really not posting this to offend or hurt anyone but only to tell that this situation exists EVEN IN 2011!!!

 

[valli]

1. Luv marriages may not solve any problem.
2. IR and IC marriages by themselves are not a panacea. They creat more problems than solutions. What more, the problems they create are unsolvable. When harmones attennuate the thinking process and make two people discard age-old wisdom the issues are all swept under carpet for some years until they come out one day and stare at you.

Oh dear! Very wrongly quoted!! Love marriage does solve a very important problem - CASTE! Even in India and outside India!

Even though caste must be registered in the birth certificate, I see children being brought up casteless, even religionless!

That is the truth I am seeing!

In the case of religionless - the parents either take their child to both temple/church/mosque but don't occupy the child's mind with any particular god! They let their child choose the God!

On the other case the parent clearly tells the child that they are non-believers and lets the child attend various scripture lessons and lets the child to decide!

As long as the child has parents' to love them they would not be too defaulted about a God not loving them!

Kind regards

 

[sangom]

Oh dear! Very wrongly quoted!! Love marriage does solve a very important problem - CASTE! Even in India and outside India!

Even though caste must be registered in the birth certificate, I see children being brought up casteless, even religionless!

That is the truth I am seeing!

In the case of religionless - the parents either take their child to both temple/church/mosque but don't occupy the child's mind with any particular god! They let their child choose the God!

On the other case the parent clearly tells the child that they are non-believers and lets the child attend various scripture lessons and lets the child to decide!

As long as the child has parents' to love them they would not be too defaulted about a God not loving them!

Kind regards

A colleague, low caste Hindu, but very fair and good-looking wed a Christian girl colleague who came forward to nurse him when he was laid up with a serious disease (severe jaundice, if I remember right). Both had the same mother tongue. They had two kids, a son and a daughter, in that order studying in school, when I became acquainted with them. Most brahmin colleagues will try to stay clear of this pair in our colony even if in the office they had to work closely together.

The kids used to go to the church with their mother and also to the nearby temples - there were five or six of them within walking distance. One day I casually asked the brother-sister pair which one they liked more - the church or the temples? Their answer was innocent but stunning: "We find God in both the places."

I did not pursue the matter further lest I spoil such young minds

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Friends

This question is on my mind for a long.... time! I am posting it here since the thread title says that 'Is reconciliation possible'!

Here the OP is talking about the reconciliation between B and others! Alright, good!

It is so... difficult for that situation to happen when there is no reconciliation within one's own family even in 2011!!!!!!!!

Here I am going to give the true details about my immediate girl cousin.

She married a NB. He is also a Hindu! The parents though now accepted her, still don't allow her even to partake in the 'Thevasams' of her grandparents! If she eats the food then she will contaminate the whole family!!!

To top that up, the parents have told my akka (cousin - Periyappa pen) not to attend their death ceremony and not to stay and partake the food, since that will make her elder brother contaminated!!! They fear that he will be excommunicated!!!!

You know how much heartache she carries till this date and how much she has cried?? Oh, not because she married a good man - he is the gem of a person! But because of the attitude of the brahmin parents'!!

I know of many many love marriage couples! As far as I have seen, NO nonbrahmin families exclude their daughter from attending to either their death ceremonies or the in-laws death ceremonies.

My akka, even though born and brought up in a typical B family feels/made to feel like a downtrodden/Sudhra person by her own family and by ALL her relatives!

If this is the case for a brahmin girl then what do you say guys for a NB or a Dalit/Sc/St??????

Is reconciliation REALLY possible?

P.S. Any person over here who has not felt this experience CANNOT relate to it and please don't IMMEDIATELY take sides! I am really not posting this to offend or hurt anyone but only to tell that this situation exists EVEN IN 2011!!!

Dear Valli,

We all as human beings, I stongly believe every single person can understand the pain of the heartache that your girl cousine have experienced/experiencing.

I personally feel really sorry for that.



We humans tend to live by what we learn, believe in, follow and lead. As well our perceptions about personal and social living are influenced by our home and social environment. These environment changes from time to time and people living through such environment tend to have different perceptions, acceptance and fulfillment.

If our older generation parents are upset on their son/daughter for their IC/IR marriage, than that son/daughter should have the mind set and determination in heart to not to feel discriminated/rejected/humiliated. As well should not be emotional to the extent of suffereing heartache. Blaming our old generation parents would also be meaningless, IMO, when we know that we have taken a different route.

Either follow your parents or just follow your life/needs/ways etc with your own family without being emotional to the members with whom we grew and without being hateful towards them. This is what I believe for myself. Both, we as present day people (as the case of 2011) and our old generation parents have own reasoning and justifications owing to individual personality and living environment in each generation.

Society is a complex structure. What we may feel right now may turn out to be wrong in future and vice versa. As per the subject matter of this thread, the possible reconciliation could be a healthy merger of all the Hindu Caste people in terms of living by respecting, following and enjoying their own style/culture/tradition with respect & love towards each other groups, having a fair deal of survival without any social discriminations, untill the Caste tagging, identification & variations (as Farward Caste, Backward Caste) comes to cease once for all, during natural course of time.

The IC/IR marriages are to be considered personal to the individuals involved and their family and the rest that follows by such marriages should be (are generally) the outcome of the personal level of acceptance and emotional relationship of the members of the concerned families, IMHO.

 

[sangom]

Dear Friends

This question is on my mind for a long.... time! I am posting it here since the thread title says that 'Is reconciliation possible'!

Here the OP is talking about the reconciliation between B and others! Alright, good!

It is so... difficult for that situation to happen when there is no reconciliation within one's own family even in 2011!!!!!!!!

Here I am going to give the true details about my immediate girl cousin.

She married a NB. He is also a Hindu! The parents though now accepted her, still don't allow her even to partake in the 'Thevasams' of her grandparents! If she eats the food then she will contaminate the whole family!!!

To top that up, the parents have told my akka (cousin - Periyappa pen) not to attend their death ceremony and not to stay and partake the food, since that will make her elder brother contaminated!!! They fear that he will be excommunicated!!!!

You know how much heartache she carries till this date and how much she has cried?? Oh, not because she married a good man - he is the gem of a person! But because of the attitude of the brahmin parents'!!

I know of many many love marriage couples! As far as I have seen, NO nonbrahmin families exclude their daughter from attending to either their death ceremonies or the in-laws death ceremonies.

My akka, even though born and brought up in a typical B family feels/made to feel like a downtrodden/Sudhra person by her own family and by ALL her relatives!

If this is the case for a brahmin girl then what do you say guys for a NB or a Dalit/Sc/St??????

Is reconciliation REALLY possible?

P.S. Any person over here who has not felt this experience CANNOT relate to it and please don't IMMEDIATELY take sides! I am really not posting this to offend or hurt anyone but only to tell that this situation exists EVEN IN 2011!!!

Smt. Valli,

Your cousin's parents are ignorant and uncivilized, according to me. I say so (sorry if I have hurt you) because there is one pucca Vadama Brahmin household in my close relatives' circle (in a way they are close - my niece's in-laws). The husband is now 90+ and his one daughter (there are 8 or 9 children) married a low caste motor mechanic from the same village. It seems the love developed when the daughter would be waiting at the bus stop daily for catching bus to her office and the motor workshop was just opposite.

The parents - orthodox brahmins - allowed this marriage some 25 or 30 years ago. The B-NB couple live in the same village and the daughter is allowed to come into her house and take part in all functions including Sraaddhams. Her daughter, now a software engineer got married to a NB boy recently.

The son-in-law, a NB knows the brahmin susceptibilities and does not come for functions like Sraaddham. But he and his children were fully participating in my niece's marriage, which after all is more of a social celebration today.

Why I am relating this is that the in-laws are pretty old, very orthodox but have eminently accepted their daughter's choice. Of course, the son-in-law comes from a very rich family. And the daughter is now a very senior Central Government servant drawing a very fat salary.

May be your cousin has not chosen a well-placed NB boy which is at the root of all the dislike shown to her.