Intercaste marriages/Reasons

[sangom]

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Respected sangom sirji,

Brahmins are changing just as others are changing.

Cowdung for cleaning panthi is given up but in its place we use dettol mixed water. What is involved is Echil and its obnoxious effects on people who come in contact with it. Cow dung in those days was equal to a disinfectant these days. Brahmins too have changed as dettol is available in plenty.

Madi had also a reason. You sure know it. It has its relevance even today. That we do not follow it is another matter. But it was not aboriginal to have had that practice.

Aacharam like drinking water from the glass without touching the lips, using silver or copper vessels for giving water to strangers etc had sound reasons. And I am sure you know that.

Because we find NBs eating food from any plate (plate used by others), sipping water from the glass and giving water to others in the same glass, several people eating from the same plate, wearing the same dress for weeks together, wearing lungis which camouflages the dirt effectively and hence does not require washing daily etc., we feel that these practices are restrictive.

Are they all really mere outdated customs?

After giving up all good practices, how will the youngsters follow them after understanding their logical correctness etc.,? Bring it back?

I think what is preferable will be to follow the practices and in course of time when circumstances make them irrelevant, give them up carefully--like when we get our disinfectant dettol mixed water readily.

Shri Vaagmiji,

I think most people will know, today, about the cowdung cleaning and its place having been taken over by floor cleaners/disinfectants. I also have no dispute about some of the other points. But patthu is a rather outdated practice, especially "patthu" being transmitted by contact of the containing vessel. Regarding ecchil, similarly, transmission by contact with a vessel or plate which has become ecchil is a bit too much. I think there is a need to distinguish between the echil-fied food as such and the vessel which happens to contain it.

Some other customs like placing two pieces of Darbhai on each vessel (closed with plate/lid) containning patthu items during eclipses, is also avoidable.

What is needed is a more rational approach and not forcing all customs blindly, on the younger generations.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Sangom sir,

Shri Brahmachariji,

May be your observations are correct and not mine.

it is not a question of whether you or i are correct. we both are observing the same thing and we are on the same side. being on the same side we both are trying to find ways and means of accepting this trend. but we are not able to accept this immediately.

"our tabras will change when the force of circumstances dictate such changes".

true sir. this is what is happening. what is troubling is they are 'dictating' the change.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

That is the sad part. With that attitude the B's are set to fail and despair.

dear prasad sir,

by 'attitude' do you mean 'finding comfort in our conservatism'?

please clarify.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

dear vaagmi and sangom sir,

shall we discuss why we are not able to accept ic/ir marriages.

is it because of any fear that our community will become extinct.

have we not survived through centuries of onslaughts.

 

[sangom]

Because we find NBs eating food from any plate (plate used by others), sipping water from the glass and giving water to others in the same glass, several people eating from the same plate, wearing the same dress for weeks together, wearing lungis which camouflages the dirt effectively and hence does not require washing daily etc., we feel that these practices are restrictive.

When I went to Kanpur in 1965, I had to stay in a bachelors' accommodation (although I was married and my first son had been born) in an area there known as Shivala Mandir area (the colony was known as Kailash Nagar, I think). The owner, a very orthodox brahmin, was occupying the ground floor and we, three bachelors, on the first floor. The passage area of the first floor had no floor but only very strong steel rods which gave us unrestricted view of the ground floor "aangan" as they called it - something akin to the ThaLam of our agraharam houses. The owner had a large family, like most of the other brahmins in that closed colony and every night we used to find all the menfolk sitting around an extremely huge bronze plate, some 4 or 5 feet diameter, the women making chapatis and curries like a factory job and all the men eating from the same plate after something like our "parishechanam". My friends told me that was the accepted brahmin custom there!

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

one of my brahmin friend, a tirunelveli iyer, married an american woman of polish origin. she was his colleague in USA. they fell in love, decided to marry. the marriage was held in coimbatore, as per brahmin traditions. the girl sported a madisar and her parents sported brahmin dress code. they recited whatever mantras the priest advised them to recite. they are a happy couple now. my friend's mother is nonetheless an orthodox lady, yet she could not object to this choice of US bride by her son. absolutely no one commented or gossipped about this. on the contrary all the brahmin relatives were showering praise on the bride and her parents for honoring and respecting our traditions and culture. fair enough!!

but why are we crying foul when a brahmin boy/girl marries an nb as per nb tradition, especially when a brahmin boy/girl marries a christian or muslim as per christian or muslim tradition respectively. why do we perceive it as a crime committed by the brahmin boy/girl. is this what prasad mentioned as 'attitude' in his post #121.

 

[Raji Ram]

When American bride or groom is selected by a brahmin, usually there are two weddings;
one in brahmin style and the other in the Church! eace:

I was upset a lot when an Iyer girl had the Iyer wedding in the morning and church wedding the same evening.

She coolly removed the thAli in the evening, while wearing the wedding gown! :dizzy:

So, why to get married in Iyer style at all? It is just for FUN?

 

[sangom]

Being a smartha, I notice that inter religious marriages between Iyer girls and other religious boys are not a new phenomenon, especially with Muslims. This has been going on some decades now. It is very mysterious.

Daughters of a popular harikatha exponent, a tamil scholar and grand daughters of popular film personality married muslim boys.

Do they not know such marriages would bring total disrepute not only to the family but the Iyer community as a whole.

What is the reason? Is it due to

* feeling suppression from the family and community and lack of independence, resulting
in taking revenge and punishing family and community
* not interested in brahmin customs and continue as a brahmin
* to be more independent
* interest in other religions (once marry the boys of other religions, Iyer girls follow their
customs scrupulously) and not ready to convert their husbands OR

* natural phonomenon

Any Psychologist or Sociologist in this Forum may explain the reason for such behaviour of Iyer girls.

It is really very disgusting.

Shri Chandruji,

I have personally known a few of these harikatha exponents and others of similar, religious persuasions. While they preach many honorable things to the public from the platforms, in their personal life they do not at all observe any of the things they preach and are rank renegades, so to say. And this hypocrisy is best known to their growing children and sometimes they rebel and such rebellion takes the form of snubbing their hypocrite father by converting to another religion altogether because their parent religion allowed such misbehaviour. ICM serves double purpose here.

I can't say about the Tamil scholar or the film personality but, roughly speaking all those elders could have been hypocrites just as the harikatha exponent, I feel.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

When American bride or groom is selected by a brahmin, usually there are two weddings;
one in brahmin style and the other in the Church! eace:

I was upset a lot when an Iyer girl had the Iyer wedding in the morning and church wedding the same evening.

She coolly removed the thAli in the evening, while wearing the wedding gown! :dizzy:

So, why to get married in Iyer style at all? It is just for FUN?

dear mz raji ram,

in this case i mentioned in my post #131, there was no 2nd marriage. this american-turned-brahmin wife of my friend follows/observes only brahmin customs/traditions. she does not go to church although she was a catholic prior to marriage. this couple have a son whose yagnopaveetham was recently held in coimbatore. amazingly, she could speak brahmin tamil fluently. her american father gifted her son a cd which teaches sandhyavandhanam.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Shri Chandruji,

I have personally known a few of these harikatha exponents and others of similar, religious persuasions. While they preach many honorable things to the public from the platforms, in their personal life they do not at all observe any of the things they preach and are rank renegades, so to say. And this hypocrisy is best known to their growing children and sometimes they rebel and such rebellion takes the form of snubbing their hypocrite father by converting to another religion altogether because their parent religion allowed such misbehaviour. ICM serves double purpose here.

I can't say about the Tamil scholar or the film personality but, roughly speaking all those elders could have been hypocrites just as the harikatha exponent, I feel.

Sir,

For the sake of decency, I don't want to mention the names of the persons concerned. But the Harikatha exponent was initially an executive in a Bank. His sons are very well educated and multifaceted personalities. Though I didn't know him personally, considering his behaviour, approach, appearance etc. he would not have been a hypocrite or renegade. I feel it was very unfortunate.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

dear vaagmi and sangom sir,

shall we discuss why we are not able to accept ic/ir marriages.

is it because of any fear that our community will become extinct.

have we not survived through centuries of onslaughts.

The Iyer population has drastically come down.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Being a smartha,......bring total disrepute ...What is the reason? Is it due to

* Any Psychologist or Sociologist in this Forum may explain the reason for such behaviour of Iyer girls.

It is really very disgusting.

dear chandru sir,

could you please elaborate on 'bring total disrepute'? what are all the disrepute and how are they a disrepute?

what and how is it disgusting?

why is it not a disrepute and why is it not disgusting when an nb, especially a fair-skinned western boy/girl converts to a brahmin and marries a brahmin girl/boy? could you please explain.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

The Iyer population has drastically come down.

chandru sir,

are we able to corroborate this claim with statistical evidence. again how much 'iyer' are we who call ourselves iyers. is there any scale/yardstick to measure our 'iyerness'.

i used 'we' since i also keep murmuring, complaining and grumbling the same.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

dear chandru sir,

could you please elaborate on 'bring total disrepute'? what are all the disrepute and how are they a disrepute?

what and how is it disgusting?

why is it not a disrepute and why is it not disgusting when an nb, especially a fair-skinned western boy/girl converts to a brahmin and marries a brahmin girl/boy? could you please explain.

Sir,

You don't understand my point.

My argument relates to such cases where girls' parents and other family members are strongly against IC/IR marriages. What is the fun in completely ditching parents and others and going with a person who is not liked.

In the case of marriages accepted by parents (cosmopolitan marriages), irrespective of caste and religion, nobody can question. It is parents' botheration.

Answer to your queries is same as given above.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

chandru sir,

are we able to corroborate this claim with statistical evidence. again how much 'iyer' are we who call ourselves iyers. is there any scale/yardstick to measure our 'iyerness'.

i used 'we' since i also keep murmuring, complaining and grumbling the same.

You can compare the no. of children the present Iyer families have, compared to previous generations.

One of my colleagues' (Vathima Iyer) parents have four children - one son and three daughters. All have children. The total is 4 - each one; and not 16 each four. This is how the Iyer population has come down.

What is the yardstick of being an Agmark Iyer? As far as possible, I am following some of the Iyer traditions. Going to Shiva Temple (Kapaleeswarar, Veleeswarar and Veerabhadrar) regularly every Monday (earlier it was every Friday) and attending Pradosham in Karaneeswarar, without fail; celebrating Iyer festivals etc. What else still you expect from an Iyer?

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

Sir,

You don't understand my point.

My argument relates to such cases where girls' parents and other family members are strongly against IC/IR marriages. What is the fun in completely ditching parents and others and going with a person who is not liked..

dear chandru sir,

there are many things our wards do against our wishes. marrying an nb is one such. but i fail to understand why we consider marrying an nb alone as bringing disrepure and disgusting.

we may not love our wards choosing a career that we may not approve of. we would not accept our children taking to the profession of a cobbler or hair-dresser. but we would not mind our wards working in bata (or similar companies) or in some US company in US owned by person born in a long line of hair-dressers, in an executive position drawing salary in american dollars.

again the person whom the brahmin boy/girl marries may not be liked by the parents. but the brahmin boy/girl likes the nb person and that is all what it matters to them.

 

[BRAHMACHARI]

You can compare the no. of children the present Iyer families have, compared to previous generations.

One of my colleagues' (Vathima Iyer) parents have four children - one son and three daughters. All have children. The total is 4 - each one; and not 16 each four. This is how the Iyer population has come down.

What is the yardstick of being an Agmark Iyer? As far as possible, I am following some of the Iyer traditions. Going to Shiva Temple (Kapaleeswarar, Veleeswarar and Veerabhadrar) regularly every Monday (earlier it was every Friday) and attending Pradosham in Karaneeswarar, without fail; celebrating Iyer festivals etc. What else still you expect from an Iyer?

sir,

as regards number of children, the young couples of the current generation in every community are limiting the size of the family to 2 children unlike couples of the first half of the 20th century where every family had at least 4 children, some even in double figure.

whatever you have mentioned as yardstick is all what everyone of us of our generation are doing and we think that is being a perfect and complete iyer. i agree i cannot expect anything more than what you have mentioned. i think this is where everyone of us are erring. are not all what you have mentioned some deceptively external projections of an imaginary identity. but could you please give some deep thought over it sir. is that all in being an iyer. are we observing/following everything that our forefathers did.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Today's generation of boys and girls are honest, straightforward and tend to premature very early. They are easily influenced by others who might have disgraced and downgraded them in schools and colleges. The majority of the caste wars at least in the South are not triggered by Brahmins. But Brahmins are used as pawns. The ratio of Brahmins and Brahmin-haters must be 1:10 crores!

 

[krish44]

Today's generation of boys and girls are honest, straightforward and tend to premature very early. They are easily influenced by others who might have disgraced and downgraded them in schools and colleges. The majority of the caste wars at least in the South are not triggered by Brahmins. But Brahmins are used as pawns. The ratio of Brahmins and Brahmin-haters must be 1:10 crores!

Iyyarooranji

Why brahmins get so much hated in tamilnadu and not to that extent in other states of india ?

living in delhi , I have never faced any my caste related issue.

In my children did not know they were forward caste until they went for college education in tamilnadu.

This is mostly a tamilnadu related issue.

brahmins are normally bystanders in caste related confrontation . They sometimes get drawn in when they try to pass judgements on other conflicting castes.

this laidback non confrontationist attitude is both good and bad . Good that they do not get physically hurt , but bad because they are getting more marginalised

,economically and politically.

 

[biswa]

dear chandru sir,

could you please elaborate on 'bring total disrepute'? what are all the disrepute and how are they a disrepute?

what and how is it disgusting?

why is it not a disrepute and why is it not disgusting when an nb, especially a fair-skinned western boy/girl converts to a brahmin and marries a brahmin girl/boy? could you please explain.

Well said. I think it is in-built racism in Indians.

Marrying a Caucasian is considered "marrying up". Marrying a NB is considered "marrying down". Unless they have unbelievable fair skin.

 

[renuka]

Marrying a Caucasian is considered "marrying up".

But yet many complains of racism they face in the west!LOL

 

[renuka]

Iyyarooranji

Why brahmins get so much hated in tamilnadu and not to that extent in other states of india ?

living in delhi , I have never faced any my caste related issue.

In my children did not know they were forward caste until they went for college education in tamilnadu.

This is mostly a tamilnadu related issue.

brahmins are normally bystanders in caste related confrontation . They sometimes get drawn in when they try to pass judgements on other conflicting castes.

this laidback non confrontationist attitude is both good and bad . Good that they do not get physically hurt , but bad because they are getting more marginalised

,economically and politically.

Dear Krish ji,

I know a person from India Tamil Nadu working here in Msia.

He in fact looks like actor Siddharth..a good looking young man and once he was telling me that he does not celebrate Diwali and only celebrates Ponggal and is a hard core "Dravidianist".

He then also told me that he is not fond of TBs in TN but he never said why.

Then I asked him what does he feel about other Brahmins from other parts of India.

He said that he has worked in other states of India before including North India and has no problems at all with Brahmins from other states.

I really wonder why is it only a problem in TN?

The same "Dravidians" have no problems with Brahmins from other states.

Why?? I dont know.

 

[krish44]

In tamilnadu if a brahmin says he does not believe in superiority of brahmin caste, other brahmins will look down on him and make him untouchable.

This superiority is inbuilt in brahmins psyche.

all decisions are made on ones caste, education quota,govt jobs, selection or rejection of matches for marriage , even cooks and servants to be employed at homes,

names to be given to children-one can extend the list

As long as this goes on , the future of Tamil brahmin in tamilnadu is bleak.

If there is a lot of moderation ,giving up many outdated rituals, reaching out to other castes in a spirit of friendship and accomodation, brahmin cause will be better

served.

 

[KRN]

In tamilnadu if a brahmin says he does not believe in superiority of brahmin caste, other brahmins will look down on him and make him untouchable.

This superiority is inbuilt in brahmins psyche.

At least some NBs have a sense of inferiority inbuilt too. I know NBs who proudly state they have married a brahmin girl - and not a word about her additional merits.

 

[KRN]

Dear Krish ji,

I know a person from India Tamil Nadu working here in Msia.

He in fact looks like actor Siddharth..a good looking young man and once he was telling me that he does not celebrate Diwali and only celebrates Ponggal and is a hard core "Dravidianist".

He then also told me that he is not fond of TBs in TN but he never said why.

Then I asked him what does he feel about other Brahmins from other parts of India.

He said that he has worked in other states of India before including North India and has no problems at all with Brahmins from other states.

I really wonder why is it only a problem in TN?

The same "Dravidians" have no problems with Brahmins from other states.

Why?? I dont know.

It might be because in other states historically Brahmins have entered into marriages with the intermediate castes oftener. In Kerala we had this custom called Sambandham by which the Nambudiris who were not the eldest of the family entered into loose matrimonial alliances with the women of the Nair caste. As a result many of the Nairs of Kerala are secretly proud that they carry Nambudiri genes in their blood. This makes the typical Nair a characteristic upholder of Hindu values and customs and makes the Brahmins job that much easier. The Nambudiris were always clear that Nairs belong to Sudra caste. Contrast TN where if I am not mistaken the leaders of Dravidian parties used to belong to the intermediate castes only.