What is the reason for love/ intercaste marriages

[SwamiTaBra]

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One feels that the agenda (for lack of a better word from me)for continuation of brahminhood has to be revisited. CHO Ramaswamy’s efforts in this respect has to be commended for his TV serial, though the storyline, the narratives could be faulted. Often we fall into the trap of justifying modern day requirements, its pressures, the influences on the present state and drift thereof. Yes, the current challenges has to dealt but the larger goal should not lost sight of.

Let us first make ourselves clear: whether brahminhood is necessary for Hinduism? Despite the rationalists, the larger hindu community (unconsciously) considers brahminhood the custodians of the vedic traditions – something unique. Having gone around Tamil Nadu, I could observe that even in villages where Brahmins have vacated, the temples with agamic traditions, the villagers would rather prefer to have a debauch kurukkal rather than a pujari from non-brahmin caste.

If Brahminhood is necessary, will not sensible that we the inheritors do what we can for preservation. The moment we start whining about the discrimination in secular employments, we find ourselves pitted against the other castes, which of course is detrimental to the larger interest of Hinduism.

[FONT=&quot]I just have few ideas:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Plan for new agraharams spread across the southern states. ( I suppose Hindus in Andhra and Karnataka would be more receptive to such projects)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot])The inhabitants of these agraharams, would be vaidikas who would be scrupulously following the nitya karmas as enjoined in sastras. There could be two distinctive strands amongst them: i) one devoted to recitations of vedic hymns and performing yagnas ii) pandits, those interpreting sastras, and will be studying various vedangas and 64 arts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c[/FONT][FONT=&quot])They would be provided the basic necessities and other facilities necessary to carry out the vedic rituals.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Employment should be barred for all the inhabitants of the proposed agraharams.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The dharmacharyas, and other influential hindus can discuss in detail and work out to mobilize necessary resources.[/FONT]

I extend my sympathy to Sri Ramki for being unable to find a match of his eligible son. Typically parents of girls put their girls into engineering colleges with a sole motive of finding a software job in any of IT majors (for the coding jobs a school pass is suffice, but the IT companies would go for engg grads and hence I suspect there is a racket about which people are not willing to speak). In 2-3 years the girls takes home a monthly salary of not less than Rs 30K. When they look for a groom they become so choosy and dismiss many prospects. Years pass and girls enters into her 30s and by then her income comes near the 6 figure mark and set more conditions are set. This goes on. So it is not surprising that a girl and boy who could have got married while in their 20s find themselves single even after ten years! This is what I term “frictional mismatch”.


Mr. Sangom's encounter with a Saiva pillai family has validated my opinion.


In other castes, the girls are prepared to compromise on the income and qualifications of the prospective grooms, when they find that they are entering into their 30s unmarried.


With regards,
Swami

 

[sangom]

...
Let us first make ourselves clear: whether brahminhood is necessary for Hinduism? Despite the rationalists, the larger hindu community (unconsciously) considers brahminhood the custodians of the vedic traditions – something unique. Having gone around Tamil Nadu, I could observe that even in villages where Brahmins have vacated, the temples with agamic traditions, the villagers would rather prefer to have a debauch kurukkal rather than a pujari from non-brahmin caste.

If Brahminhood is necessary, will not sensible that we the inheritors do what we can for preservation. The moment we start whining about the discrimination in secular employments, we find ourselves pitted against the other castes, which of course is detrimental to the larger interest of Hinduism.

Shri Swami,
The truth of the matter, in my opinion, is that most tambrams do not want either the label of "brahmanan" or to have the burden of preserving the inheritance of the traditions. We tambrams are very much happy to be after the materialistic life which is a boon of the western cultures and science and to lead a life of ease, comfort and enjoyment of carnal pleasures. The little bit of the religious facade we do is just that, a facade, to gain the public approbation of being considered as a "very religious person".

Given this predominant tendency even among the majority of the present day purohits (vaadhyaars) I am sorry to say that I do not see any chance of your suggestions for new "agrahaarams" ever becoming reality.

I am hearing for the first time that a mere SSLC pass is sufficient for coding. Whatever the actual position may be, I feel the reality is that the tambram girls are much more individualistic than their North Indian brahmin counterparts even. The latter are more fashionable but, in the wider sense, they seem to look at the role of a housewife as neither demeaning, nor slavery to the husband, nor a denial of their ambitions. They still seem to feel that the bringing up of children is of paramount importance whereas, their career is not as important. However if a need arises they are ready to work and earn. This seems to be the result of the inputs given to them by their parents and elders. Among tambrams there is a tendency for the parents to be neutral in advising their daughters on these lines. And I know one or two cases where there is strong reason to doubt the influence of the girl's parents in allowing the differences between the girl and her husband to escalate, so that the girl lives with her parents and they (the parents) benefit from the hefty (50 or 60 K per month) salary which their daughter brings home. In one case, I understand, the girl's father merrily operates in the stock market with his daughter's earnings!!

Mr. Sangom's encounter with a Saiva pillai family has validated my opinion.


In other castes, the girls are prepared to compromise on the income and qualifications of the prospective grooms, when they find that they are entering into their 30s unmarried.


With regards,
Swami

In many other castes the caste norms are still intact and people (who are living in India at least) think twice before violating the norms held important by their caste people. Tambrams are highly individualistic, with a lot of ego as well and as a result, caste norms are practically not there now. It is like each one is a monarch unto himself ("ellorum innaattu mannar") and "jaathik kattuppaadu" is non-existent practically.

We had one friend whose son fell in love with an OBC girl and because of his threats of committing suicide, the marriage was performed despite the unwillingness of his parents. But after the marriage was over this friend started praising his dil to the skies, in and out of context, that another person, quipped, "OK, your son has married a very very good ...girl, but don't tell next that all tambram boys should marry only ...girls!"

 

[R. Ramanujan]

One thing that comes to mind is that in hindi films hindus are portrayed in bad light like rapists, molestors,rioters and muslims, christians are seen as saviours, good people.
esp in hindi cinema and bollywood.

so young generation get influenced.

 

[pannvalan]

The whole Bollywood is controlled by Muslims and the Underworld dons.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Shri Swami,
The truth of the matter, in my opinion, is that most tambrams do not want either the label of "brahmanan" or to have the burden of preserving the inheritance of the traditions. We tambrams are very much happy to be after the materialistic life which is a boon of the western cultures and science and to lead a life of ease, comfort and enjoyment of carnal pleasures. The little bit of the religious facade we do is just that, a facade, to gain the public approbation of being considered as a "very religious person".

Given this predominant tendency even among the majority of the present day purohits (vaadhyaars) I am sorry to say that I do not see any chance of your suggestions for new "agrahaarams" ever becoming reality.

I am hearing for the first time that a mere SSLC pass is sufficient for coding. Whatever the actual position may be, I feel the reality is that the tambram girls are much more individualistic than their North Indian brahmin counterparts even. The latter are more fashionable but, in the wider sense, they seem to look at the role of a housewife as neither demeaning, nor slavery to the husband, nor a denial of their ambitions. They still seem to feel that the bringing up of children is of paramount importance whereas, their career is not as important. However if a need arises they are ready to work and earn. This seems to be the result of the inputs given to them by their parents and elders. Among tambrams there is a tendency for the parents to be neutral in advising their daughters on these lines. And I know one or two cases where there is strong reason to doubt the influence of the girl's parents in allowing the differences between the girl and her husband to escalate, so that the girl lives with her parents and they (the parents) benefit from the hefty (50 or 60 K per month) salary which their daughter brings home. In one case, I understand, the girl's father merrily operates in the stock market with his daughter's earnings!!

In many other castes the caste norms are still intact and people (who are living in India at least) think twice before violating the norms held important by their caste people. Tambrams are highly individualistic, with a lot of ego as well and as a result, caste norms are practically not there now. It is like each one is a monarch unto himself ("ellorum innaattu mannar") and "jaathik kattuppaadu" is non-existent practically.

We had one friend whose son fell in love with an OBC girl and because of his threats of committing suicide, the marriage was performed despite the unwillingness of his parents. But after the marriage was over this friend started praising his dil to the skies, in and out of context, that another person, quipped, "OK, your son has married a very very good ...girl, but don't tell next that all tambram boys should marry only ...girls!"

Sorry. I missed out your reply. I am yet to become adept at navigating through this portal.

I broadly agree with you on your assessment on TB girls in contrast with their northern counterparts.

Though there may instances of TB boys marrying NBs, I think by the force of refusal by TB girls, many will have to settle for such an option.

A more acceptable option may be to think of inviting the larger Brahmin community for brides. At least the samskaras like upnayanam, shradda can be continued without break. As far I know, shastra does not permit a brahmin man married to a NB to perform pitr samskaras. (please enlighten me on the correct position).

Programming jobs amongst whites in US are mostly those who completed school or even drop-outs. Basic knowledge of programming is taught at the Higher Secondary level. Anyway companies always ensure a few months of training before being put on the job. Hence a school-pass is suffice.

Modernists, broad-minded folks can ignore this post.

With regards,

Swami

 

[sangom]

Sorry. I missed out your reply. I am yet to become adept at navigating through this portal.

I broadly agree with you on your assessment on TB girls in contrast with their northern counterparts.

A more acceptable option may be to think of inviting the larger Brahmin community for brides. At least the samskaras like upnayanam, shradda can be continued without break. As far I know, shastra does not permit a brahmin man married to a NB to perform pitr samskaras. (please enlighten me on the correct position).

Shri Swami,

You are right as far as the smritis are taken for guidance, but in today's atmosphere there will be many purohits ready to perform any samskaras irrespective of the caste of the yajamanan's wife. Here in Kerala we have more than one example of tambrams who hold positions in the Kerala Brahmins Association; in some cases their children - sons as well as daughters - have married from other NB castes. But these office bearers are going on jolly well, except one principled man who resigned his post before his daughter married a NB!!

Programming jobs amongst whites in US are mostly those who completed school or even drop-outs. Basic knowledge of programming is taught at the Higher Secondary level. Anyway companies always ensure a few months of training before being put on the job. Hence a school-pass is suffice.

This is surprising! Then why are we wasting so much of national resources to turn out B.Tech/M.Tech and MS youngsters who get in sometimes as mere programmers in BPOs?

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Swami,

You are right as far as the smritis are taken for guidance, but in today's atmosphere there will be many purohits ready to perform any samskaras irrespective of the caste of the yajamanan's wife. Here in Kerala we have more than one example of tambrams who hold positions in the Kerala Brahmins Association; in some cases their children - sons as well as daughters - have married from other NB castes. But these office bearers are going on jolly well, except one principled man who resigned his post before his daughter married a NB!!..

sangom,

i am not sure about the principles involved here, and would not comment on it.

but i sure find it strange that the other members accepted this gentleman's resignation. purely from a sum total of the community, it is attitudes like these, that drives our children to other communities and religions ie our unwillingness or inability to absorb new blood.

ofcourse, on a personal level, i can only ask a question to the public, 'does any dare thrown stones from a glass house?'.

i can only tell those who are smirking at the supposed loss of face for the parents of children who married out of caste, their turn too will come, sometimes sooner, or later - and they too will do a 180 degrees reversal of attitudes.

i have seen too many to count of such instances. the good thing ofcourse, is that attitudes change, and hopefully for the better. wisdom, to me, appears more a graduation out of the school of hard knocks, than anwhere else.

 

[sangom]

sangom,

i am not sure about the principles involved here, and would not comment on it.

but i sure find it strange that the other members accepted this gentleman's resignation. purely from a sum total of the community, it is attitudes like these, that drives our children to other communities and religions ie our unwillingness or inability to absorb new blood.

ofcourse, on a personal level, i can only ask a question to the public, 'does any dare thrown stones from a glass house?'.

i can only tell those who are smirking at the supposed loss of face for the parents of children who married out of caste, their turn too will come, sometimes sooner, or later - and they too will do a 180 degrees reversal of attitudes.

i have seen too many to count of such instances. the good thing ofcourse, is that attitudes change, and hopefully for the better. wisdom, to me, appears more a graduation out of the school of hard knocks, than anwhere else.

Shri Kunjuppu,

The principle, in my view is that the said gentleman was an office bearer of an association which claimed to represent a certain caste group. When his daughter herself breached that norm and wanted to marry outside the caste and he, as her father, had to consent to it, he felt (and I think rightly so) that he does not have any moral authority to continue as office bearer. If we are sure (as you seem to be; or is it that you are unsure and want to emphasize it so that your wish will be actualized?) that the coming generations of tamil brahmins will increasingly resort to marrying outside the brahmin caste, we will be a laughing stock in the eyes of the public, to pontificate about the inevitability of icms in a forum which itself claims to represent the very caste! Perhaps it will be more appropriate to rename this forum as "intercaste-oriented-tamilbrahmins.com"!!

I also find that you have repeated ad nauseum, in your posts, the idea contained in "i can only tell those who are smirking at the supposed loss of face for the parents of children who married out of caste, their turn too will come, sometimes sooner, or later - and they too will do a 180 degrees reversal of attitudes." How sure are you in making such a negative prediction to every one? Or is it caused by the innate caste consciousness in you which feels bad to see that your kids have become casteless while some others are still able to stick to their caste?

Even if some one has to face such a situation, it looks alright to me, if he will admit that he was against icm but the action of his son/daughter puts him in an unenviable situation to which he had to agree. Parents cannot legally oppose the actions of their grown up children. After all most of the tambrams here in India do not live under the constant fear of "The end is near" (for the tambram caste, I mean) as if it is some evangelical group. They believe that the caste will continue as an identifiable entity with its separate customs, rituals, Tamizh language, cuisines and all, atleast for many centuries. So why should anyone start believing that his son/daughter may (or is it "shall" according to you?) marry from another caste and start justifying it or singing paeans of icm right from the start?

On another occasion you had said that you were not actively promoting icms but only telling that the parents should not oppose it. But your public warnings to be prepared for icms in each and every family, that you have had countless cases, etc., project you as a zealous peddler of the icm idea and nothing else.

I therefore feel that as long as this forum is to be known as "tamilbrahmins.com" we should not envisage the obliteration of the community through icm, whatever our individual views may be on that subject, nor should anyone grab each and every chance to warn - through this forum, unless its name is suitably changed - that more and more tambram youngsters will resort to icm.

I propose to record my opinion as above in future whenever you record your pov.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i dont want to get personal, but you have gone on record that your son married a north indian. hopefully he has lived upto the standards of kerala brahmana samooham's rules re food, madisar and cuisine.

there is someone here, who is of similar attitude towards icm as you have, and who encouraged the son to marry a chinese woman, and hopefully their household practices the type of brahminism that is preached by that member in this forum.

all my relatives who married north indian brahmins, have adopted north indian customs including speaking hindi at home. similar in food habits and customs. i cannot expect sambhar and rasam in these households. not sure if kerala brahmana samooham would approve these for membership.

also, my point was, that i find it strange, that parents are 'punished' for the actions of the adult children. out of curiosity, if the child, had married a brahmin, and abused the spouse, would the parents still qualify?

all i said re ic marriages, be prepared. this is only inferring the way things are going. it does not mean it will happen. it does not mean it will not happen. if it happens, it is not the end of the world. there is no need to get excited about it, re my viewpoint. facts speak for themselves.

our cuisines and culture as tambrams, will survive, as long as the tambrams embrace it. i fear the bigger threat to our way of life, is our own youth, who have had no qualms discarding aviyal and thayir saadham for dhal & subji. salwar for thavani. pajamas for veshti. mehndi for marudhani. diwali for deepavali. .. the list is endless and growing by the day.

again, i repeat, if one's child marries out of caste, they can still uphold tambram traditions, if there is a willingness and desire to do so. this desire will be reinforced by the parents' attitude and support.

thank you.

 

[sangom]

sangom,

i dont want to get personal, but you have gone on record that your son married a north indian. hopefully he has lived upto the standards of kerala brahmana samooham's rules re food, madisar and cuisine.

Since you have raised this point let me add, for the sake of complete information that, my daughter-in-law belongs to the brahmin community. Right from marriage they are in London and we (my wife and I) could so far visit them only once. But they do come during Dec.-Jan. in most years.

My dil is a housewife and she takes interest in learning our customs, cuisine and even "madisar". But I am not sure if she will be able to wear madisar without help. (I think many of our pure tambram girls also are like that now.) Having said that let me also add that it will be difficult to expect her (my dil) to cook our traditional items with the same level of expertise which she has in the North Indian traditional items. And, any way, I am not an office bearer of any outfit representing tambrams - except perhaps my membership here.

The point here is not one of dress, cuisine, etc. It is "caste" pure and simple and certain other customs/observances, beliefs, rituals, religious lore, etc., Tamilbrahmins forum itself is based on a certain caste identity, KBA (Kerala Brahmins' Association) is also a caste-based organization, and the gentleman who resigned from his post must have felt that he should not set a precedent, simply because he can claim to be a tambram, when his daughter herself does not owe allegiance to the caste. IMO, this was a principled action.

there is someone here, who is of similar attitude towards icm as you have, and who encouraged the son to marry a chinese woman, and hopefully their household practices the type of brahminism that is preached by that member in this forum.

This is an entirely extraneous point. So no comments. But why should this individual case worry you so much. For example, one of the distant cousins of my father, had a son who was very poor in his studies - (with the wisdom of hindsight I feel that boy might have been mentally retarded to a small degree). But the father used to advise us to be good children and to excel in our studies. Can this be called something wrong or hypocritical on his part?

all my relatives who married north indian brahmins, have adopted north indian customs including speaking hindi at home. similar in food habits and customs. i cannot expect sambhar and rasam in these households. not sure if kerala brahmana samooham would approve these for membership.

Two points have got mixed up. As far as food habits of your relatives who have married North Indians, it is to be expected that they will be getting used to those types of dishes. And, as Shri Ramanujan says many of the children may not even be fluent in talking Tamizh. It depends on the child's interest and the parents' wishes.

Incidentally, even such a north-south marriage is not necessary for the change in tastes; my sister's children and grand children- all cent per cent tambrams, all brought up in New Delhi, prefer north Indian items to tambram specials.

Whether Kerala Brahmana Samooham will accept such people or not, I cannot say. But, going by the criteria of our forum, all those who claim to be brahmins might be accepted.

also, my point was, that i find it strange, that parents are 'punished' for the actions of the adult children. out of curiosity, if the child, had married a brahmin, and abused the spouse, would the parents still qualify?

Nobody punished that man; he himself felt he should resign. The query in the latter part is irrelevant because, it is not somebody from outside who decided the fate of the gentleman in question; if the man in your imagined situation felt that he could continue, he might.

all i said re ic marriages, be prepared. this is only inferring the way things are going. it does not mean it will happen. it does not mean it will not happen. if it happens, it is not the end of the world. there is no need to get excited about it, re my viewpoint. facts speak for themselves.

I reproduce your observations below for ready reference:

"i can only tell those who are smirking at the supposed loss of face for the parents of children who married out of caste, their turn too will come, sometimes sooner, or later - and they too will do a 180 degrees reversal of attitudes.

i have seen too many to count of such instances. the good thing ofcourse, is that attitudes change, and hopefully for the better. wisdom, to me, appears more a graduation out of the school of hard knocks, than anwhere else. "

I leave it to the readers to judge, particularly those emphasized portions above and judge whether you were innocently inferring the way things are going or prophesying that their turn will come, inexorably, sooner or later; so inevitable like death itself, and advising them to be prepared for it and adding for better effect that "i have seen too many to count of such instances."

our cuisines and culture as tambrams, will survive, as long as the tambrams embrace it. i fear the bigger threat to our way of life, is our own youth, who have had no qualms discarding aviyal and thayir saadham for dhal & subji. salwar for thavani. pajamas for veshti. mehndi for marudhani. diwali for deepavali. .. the list is endless and growing by the day.

again, i repeat, if one's child marries out of caste, they can still uphold tambram traditions, if there is a willingness and desire to do so. this desire will be reinforced by the parents' attitude and support.

thank you.

What we term as tambram culture regarding dress habits, cuisine, make-up etc., is neither beginningless nor static. Perhaps a few hundred years ago, our 'culture' in these respects was very different from what it is today. Not very long ago we were bound within sub-caste circles, not even as a common tambram community, when it came to marriages. The dress habit of Sanketi women was very different. But certain other customs, beliefs, rituals, religious lore, etc., have been held as valuable by all these brahmins of different sub-castes and have not been subjected to rapid changes with the times. The term "culture" here refers to these. It may be true that many of the tambrams do not observe some or many of these, but the community as a whole has been successful in preserving and passing on these traditions from generation to generation mainly because it was not diluted to any significant extent by mixing up with differing 'cultures'.

We are ever changing and evolving faster in regard to aspects like cuisine, dress habits, make-up, ornaments, etc., but without a preplanned agenda or programme. And it has worked well during all these centuries. Still, we have what is known as caste identities, not only brahmins but other castes/sub castes also. Until and unless there is response from all castes to let go of their caste pride or affiliation, it will not be realistic to envisage that children born of icm parents will be brought up in the tambram 'culture' or to expect them to preserve these for future generations, as has been done so far. That is why the need for marrying within the community is relevant, at least for the present, in my view.

 

[Nara]

.....the gentleman who resigned from his post must have felt that he should not set a precedent, simply because he can claim to be a tambram, when his daughter herself does not owe allegiance to the caste. IMO, this was a principled action.

yes Shri Sangom, in one sense this is a principled stand. However, this clearly shows that at least in practice, who a Brahmin is, is determined only by birth and birth only. Yet, it is a normal practice for Brahmins to claim that a brahmin is one who is embodied with everything sublime. The most recent example of this is Mrs. VR citing the story of Sathyakama Jabala from Chandogya to illustrate that anyone who is unafraid to tell the truth must be Brahmin -- Brahmin by birth? If that is so, then one of those who availed of the services of the dasi Jabala was a Brahmin, isn't? Then, what sort of a Brahmin was he?

Whatever may be the origin of all this, varna and jati are very closely related and they both are by birth. This kind of birth based classification has been condemned the world over as the same or at least akin to racism. At the root of this visha vruksham is Brahminism. This is why no Brahmin can openly condemn the atrocities committed by dominant NB against Dalits. No Sankaracharya or Jeeyar can or will openly criticize these atrocities without coming across as totally hypocritical.

Brahmins waiting for some other jAti to go first or hoping that all jAtis will simultaneously abandon the varna/jati system is kind of lame, considering the fact that all Brahmincal Matams openly hold Dharmashashthras in high esteem. Further, sitting at the top of the varna hierarchy, it is their duty to lead the way. In this effort, intellectuals like yourself must be in the forefront, I think. Following public opinion is for politicans, not for an intellectual giant like yourself. I do think, with all sincerity, that you are an intellectual giant, this is no empty முகஸ்துதி, there is no gain in it for me.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Shri Swami,

You are right as far as the smritis are taken for guidance, but in today's atmosphere there will be many purohits ready to perform any samskaras irrespective of the caste of the yajamanan's wife. Here in Kerala we have more than one example of tambrams who hold positions in the Kerala Brahmins Association; in some cases their children - sons as well as daughters - have married from other NB castes. But these office bearers are going on jolly well, except one principled man who resigned his post before his daughter married a NB!!

This is surprising! Then why are we wasting so much of national resources to turn out B.Tech/M.Tech and MS youngsters who get in sometimes as mere programmers in BPOs?

Regarding the attitude of the present day purohits, less said the better.

Most would not mind officiating for wedding perfomed on widowed and divorced women. A shastraic wedding is conducted and a legal divorce takes place! Is dissolution of marriage perfomed by shastraic allowed by by very same sastra?
When I ask such questions to my close relatives, they look askance and I'm usually fobbed off by the reply that we have got to move on with times.
My poser is:  if the couple do see a possibilty of separation, why not go for civil marriage alone?  I suppose many Dharmacharyas, despite knowing the correct position, prefer to remain silent fearing unpopularity.
[COLOR=yellowgreen]
This is surprising! Then why are we wasting so much of national  resources to turn out B.Tech/M.Tech and MS youngsters who get in  sometimes as mere programmers in BPOs?
[/COLOR]
Ans.: I suppose when the body-shopping was booming until few years back in the software industry (sending one's employees to the clients' sites, mostly to US), the US authorities insisted on 16 years of formal education in India for the candidates. This of course was not possible with the schooling which last for only 12 years. (Please don't ask me why such stipulation was set) and hence graduates with minimum of four years in university became eligible. 
The employers turned to engg. grads and the remuneration they offered were lucrative in rupee terms and the bandwagon effect soon grew. This resulted in proliferation of self-financed colleges, particularly in T.N. started mostly by shady characters. The employers offer differential compensation to freshers depending on reputation of the institutions. So a pecking order too got established. IIT grads will command the highest, followed by grads. of REC/NIT and old govt. engg. colleges, to be followed by select self-financing engg. colleges and so on.

A self-flagellation here. As a nation we don't have the intellectual integrity to question these sort of development for that would mean risking expediency. May centuries of domination and the fatigue due to extraordinary activities in ages before has number our intellect.
This may not happen in China.

Our leading lights of new age economy like Narayanamuthy would be oblivious these matters for they are part of this dynamics.

Let me also relate a story too:

A friend of mine, a TB nearing 40, also a  former colleague an AMIE and ME from MIT Chrompet (alma-mater of Abdul Kalam) is engaged as a Asst. Prof in a engg. college founded by one of the big wigs of IT industry. He is known for his academic rigour amongst his peers. He is pursuing his Ph.D now.
His parents lament that they are unable to find a bride. 
My friend once confided with me that many of his other other unmarried TB friends out of disgust (unable to find a bride) are contemplating marrying outside the caste.
 I'm sure had he been born in some other caste, he would have got married long back.

While referring to Kerala Brahmins, do you mean the TBs (pejoratively called pattars) who have settled in Palghat-Trichurand in other parts of erstwhile  princely state of Travancore?

Thanks for your enlightening posts.

With regards,
Swami

 

[sangom]

Shri Swami,

There is something wrong with the server and I am getting the web page without wrap. So, it is difficult to quote.

I thank you for your very lucid explanation about programmers. In fact my eldest son who is a B.Tech from I.I.Sc., Bangalore, used to tell me that programming does not require any of the higher studies. Now it is clear.

I refer to all tambrams in Kerala, including Palghat. We are pejoratively called "pattar" here. Namboodiris used to refer to us as "paradesa brahmanan". But in some books and publications, the term Kerala Brahmin is used to denote the Namboodiri brahmins and, sometimes, the Tulu brahmins also. In that sense my use of this word is confusing, I agree. I will hereafter use tambrams of Kerala.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

thank you for your reply.

if you don't mind, i have a few queries regarding the nature of your post.

to tell you the truth, the fact that KBA members' children marrying out of community took me completley by surprise, as this is the first time i am hearing of children of formal organizations taking such steps.

how prevalent is this? you indicated there were other members who were in a similar boat as the principled one.

what was the attitude of the association? was it business as usual? or do they discuss such things and seek input from the impacted parents?

is it still considered 'shame' on the family? ie no other tambram would have an arranged marriage with this kutumbam?

how prevalent is this phenomenon in your circle? 1 out of 20, 30, 100?

to give you a background: in the 70s, two girls from the kottayam side of my family married syrian christians. they were banished and disowned, monetarily and otherwise.

in the 90s a nephew married a nair, and even though the father (in his late 80s) disapproved, invited the son/dil back to live with them when the grandson was born.

another nephew married to jesudoss family. people were proud of it and vied for the invitations.

today i am attending a neice's wedding here to a bengali; her brother married a punjabi last year; both with the blessings of the parents, who are probably hugely relieved that it was not muslims or whites that were chosen.

both were traditional pattar style weddings.

thank you.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Sangom

In IT, Programming is the lowest level . For designing an IT System, you need a lot of knowledge in terms of Technology, Business Needs, Usability, Common Sense and a lot more.

In my experience, for designing and architecting a IT system, a sound technical degree consisting of Domain, HW,SW,Networking Knowledge with very good communication skills and Vision is important.

(Insider's experience)

Namaskaram
Revathi
Revathi

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Sangom

In IT, Programming is the lowest level . For designing an IT System, you need a lot of knowledge in terms of Technology, Business Needs, Usability, Common Sense and a lot more.

In my experience, for designing and architecting a IT system, a sound technical degree consisting of Domain, HW,SW,Networking Knowledge with very good communication skills and Vision is important.

(Insider's experience)

Namaskaram
Revathi
Revathi

reva

i have been in i.t. here for over 30 years.

i am really amazed at the calibre and qualifications of the indian i.t.professionals who come to my place of work on term contracts.

in contrast, most of the local home grown folks, have developed their job skills, 'on the job'. there are instances of high school clerks, moving on to i.t. after taking a few courses, and working their way up.

ofcourse i work in a bank, with over 4000 i.t professionals, and so jobs are compartmentalized and the silos seldom interact with each other.

all in all, indian i.t. professionals are any day, atleast those that come here, are better or atleast on par with the best of the ones here.

good stuff.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Kunjuppu,

Nice to know

Of course, if I want to work in Canada, I know whom to ask

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[R. Ramanujan]

Why is this page coming like this? So expanded.

 

[sangom]

Originally posted by Nara
Brahmins waiting for some other jAti to go first or hoping that all jAtis will simultaneously abandon the varna/jati system is kind of lame, considering the fact that all Brahmincal Matams openly hold Dharmashashthras in high esteem. Further, sitting at the top of the varna hierarchy, it is their duty to lead the way. In this effort, intellectuals like yourself must be in the forefront, I think. Following public opinion is for politicans, not for an intellectual giant like yourself. I do think, with all sincerity, that you are an intellectual giant, this is no empty முகஸ்துதி, there is no gain in it for me.

Dear Shri Nara,

The web page appears without word wrap. So I am reproducing what I wrote earlier. May I mention that what I wrote was in the express context of icms, which seems to have been overlooked by you.

"We are ever changing and evolving faster in regard to aspects like cuisine, dress habits, make-up, ornaments, etc., but without a preplanned agenda or programme. And it has worked well during all these centuries. Still, we have what is known as caste identities, not only brahmins but other castes/sub castes also. Until and unless there is response from all castes to let go of their caste pride or affiliation, it will not be realistic to envisage that children born of icm parents will be brought up in the tambram 'culture' or to expect them to preserve these for future generations, as has been done so far. That is why the need for marrying within the community is relevant, at least for the present, in my view. "

You will kindly see the reason/s for which I say that brahmins need not unilaterally initiate a casteless society in the present day Indian conditions, though I do not oppose individuals or families venturing forth into it. When it was the discarding of the sub-caste barrier within brahmins themselves, we might have lost some of the peripheral aspects such as dress, cuisine, etc., but there was a community which did support a few people who were interested in learning vedas, rituals, etc., and put them in practice since the individual households required those things to be performed. But if the brahmins are to go out today and declare that we are prepared to forgo our caste, and enter into icm with other castes for our boys and girls, it is very likely to result in the brahmin community itself going out of existence, but the other castes will very likely remain unchanged. Our numbers (very small percentage of the total hindu population) is sure to make us dissolve into the vast NB castes/subcastes. While this may not be of any interest to most people, the tambram community's survival will facilitate its own 'cultural' aspects and also the preservation of what we call our religious inheritance.

I definitely know that I am not a scholar but am very much elated when a professor of your standing gives me such recognition. My sincere thanks to you for that.

Irrespective of whether we are scholars or not, religious or not, I think we should not hastily plan for the wiping out of our community. At the same time if at the individual level, there is icm we need not object or feel bad about it. Eventually if icms become the rule of the day, we have to face the fact as also its consequences. But I as a person will not like to advocate icms and, for that purpose, brahmins taking the lead to go all out to encourage icm.

Hope I have made my point clear.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sangom, my comment was much broader than just icm. IMO, a major reformation of the religious and cultural ethos of Brahminis is long overdue. Any religious justification for jAti must be removed. This can happen only by the stewards of Brahminism, namely top brass of Brahmincal Matams. They won’t do it unless sufficient intellectual and financial is pressure placed on them.

icm driven social change will be slow until a critical mass of icms is achieved. Even though this trend is inexorable, it may take a long time to achieve critical mass. Further, if this trend is resisted by the orthodoxy, the very Brahmin culture everyone wants to preserve is doomed to perish. On the other hand, however, if the Brahminical matams declare that birth-based system is no longer valid in this kali yuga, and open up Veda patashalas, priesthood, rituals to all who wish to study and practice, change will come much faster. It has the potential to shame the upper caste NBs to stop and take note. As a nice bonus to the observant, Brahminical practices such as Vedas and rituals will get fresh impetus and vibrancy.

Between the bottom-up change fueled by increasing icms that may in the end decimate Brahminical practices, and the top-down change driven by enlightened leadership that may preserve these practices, my money, if I am a betting man, would be on the former, as the latter requires enlightened leadership which is nowhere in sight. In as much as the former is unstoppable, the chance of the latter happening is between zero and nil.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom, my comment was much broader than just icm. IMO, a major reformation of the religious and cultural ethos of Brahminis is long overdue. Any religious justification for jAti must be removed. This can happen only by the stewards of Brahminism, namely top brass of Brahmincal Matams. They won’t do it unless sufficient intellectual and financial is pressure placed on them.

icm driven social change will be slow until a critical mass of icms is achieved. Even though this trend is inexorable, it may take a long time to achieve critical mass. Further, if this trend is resisted by the orthodoxy, the very Brahmin culture everyone wants to preserve is doomed to perish. On the other hand, however, if the Brahminical matams declare that birth-based system is no longer valid in this kali yuga, and open up Veda patashalas, priesthood, rituals to all who wish to study and practice, change will come much faster. It has the potential to shame the upper caste NBs to stop and take note. As a nice bonus to the observant, Brahminical practices such as Vedas and rituals will get fresh impetus and vibrancy.

Between the bottom-up change fueled by increasing icms that may in the end decimate Brahminical practices, and the top-down change driven by enlightened leadership that may preserve these practices, my money, if I am a betting man, would be on the former, as the latter requires enlightened leadership which is nowhere in sight. In as much as the former is unstoppable, the chance of the latter happening is between zero and nil.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

The web page from our forum is often appearing without word wrap and this creates some mistakes. This is one such instance. So, pl. bear with me for any errors or inadequacies.

I completely agree with your aforesaid observations. But if I have the option, I will definitely work for the former - i.e., top down approach. As a first step will it be feasible to get sufficient number of signatories to a memorandum incorporating our concern, ideas and suggestions, to all the heads of various matthams, to be drafted, edited, finalized and signed in the internet way which can be sent -either by post or by e-mail - to them? We may also consider giving whatever publicity we can through the local or all India media. I would consider that it will be worth thinking of such a step.

I invite our members' views and yours of course.

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

thank you for your reply.

if you don't mind, i have a few queries regarding the nature of your post.

to tell you the truth, the fact that KBA members' children marrying out of community took me completley by surprise, as this is the first time i am hearing of children of formal organizations taking such steps.

how prevalent is this? you indicated there were other members who were in a similar boat as the principled one.

what was the attitude of the association? was it business as usual? or do they discuss such things and seek input from the impacted parents?

is it still considered 'shame' on the family? ie no other tambram would have an arranged marriage with this kutumbam?

how prevalent is this phenomenon in your circle? 1 out of 20, 30, 100?

to give you a background: in the 70s, two girls from the kottayam side of my family married syrian christians. they were banished and disowned, monetarily and otherwise.

in the 90s a nephew married a nair, and even though the father (in his late 80s) disapproved, invited the son/dil back to live with them when the grandson was born.

another nephew married to jesudoss family. people were proud of it and vied for the invitations.

today i am attending a neice's wedding here to a bengali; her brother married a punjabi last year; both with the blessings of the parents, who are probably hugely relieved that it was not muslims or whites that were chosen.

both were traditional pattar style weddings.

thank you.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

AFAIK, there are at least 3 or 4 cases, other than the one which we have been discussing, in which the children of KBA office bearers have gone for icms. The person who tendered his resignation has obviously accepted his ward's choice, I believe. In one case of which I have direct info, the father has driven his son out of the house and he - the son - has since gone to the US. I cannot say whether there will be a patch-up between the two- may happen, may not, given the temperaments of the people concerned and the ideas which the father holds as sacred.

Since there are many Office bearers, it may not be high percentage-wise, but IMO it is not the percentages which are relevant here, but the irony, even if there are few cases only.

I cannot say what the attitude of the organization was/is because I have no access to that info. But from what I hear, second, third or nth. hand, such people are generally viewed with a bit of condescension by others. The person who has broken relation with his son is viewed with sympathy by other brahmins but NBs display sympathy as well as respect for standing up to principles.

I may not be able to answer your question whether no other brahmin family will have any arranged marriage with this family, because, it will depend on many factors. In one case where the daughter married a christian, the girl's elder brother highly qualified and earning a very high salary in the IT field could get a tambram girl, though some cases from Palghat, TN, etc., did not show any interest after coming to know of the icm of the daughter, though they were very interested at the horoscope stage. If the boy has had icm, his sister may have somewhat similar experience, but in view of the shortage of girls in our community, it may be far more easier for the girl, I feel.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sangom Ji and Professor Nara Ji,

I support your idea of approaching all the leaders of Brahminical Hinduism to do away with the castes. How about approaching the Ahobila Matham first, in which, as I understand Professor Nara Ji carries some weight?

Regards,
KRS

 

[sangom]

Shri KRS, Prof. Nara,

First we should have a memorandum ready. Let us try to draft one.

 

[Nara]

....I support your idea of approaching all the leaders of Brahminical Hinduism to do away with the castes. How about approaching the Ahobila Matham first, in which, as I understand Professor Nara Ji carries some weight?

Dear Shri Sangom and Shri KRS,
I have been quite close to Sri Ahobila Matam for a long time, but no influence at all. In Brahminism shishyas are expected to blindly follow, not do any அதிகப்ரஸிங்கித்தனம். Further, I know what the reaction will be if such a suggestion as proposed is made, we will be literally thrown out. I am sure the reaction in other maThams will not be any different. Even if some heads may be sympathetic to this cause, nobody will stick their neck out and be the first.

But, this need not deter us, we can get the effort started. May be the next generation of leaders may be more receptive. For that a start has to be made. If not now, when, if not us who?

I suggest we draw up an outline, a sort of table of contents, for this memorandum. Then, we can divide up the sections among people with interest and expertise to write them up. In the next step, we can form small groups to stitch the sections together and make a document out of it. Finally, we can release it online for people to sign the petition. At that point we can form another team to publicize the memorandum. If we gather enough signatures, it may take on a life of its own, who knows where it will lead

People with varied skills will be needed. Shri Sangom is our resident scholar to give theoretical rigor to the document. Happy is very good with anthropological data/research. Kunjupu has project management expertise to shepherd the effort. Praveen can provide web assistance. Shri KRS can lead this effort. I will definitely assist from SV angle. There may be many more silent sympathetic observers who may want to help as well.

I have no illusions, this effort will face stiff opposition. But I think it is a noble effort, worthy of our time and effort, like planting a fruit tree that only our children or grandchildren will get to enjoy.

Cheers!