• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

A new view on reason for #corruption in india

Status
Not open for further replies.

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
I got this in a watsapp group from India.
It is a harsh commentary. It made me angry at first, but sadly it is true.
So before you go into a tirade against me, see the article for what it is worth.


Brian from Godzone
NEW ZEALAND



Indians are Hobbesian
(Culture of self interest)



Corruption in India is a cultural aspect. Indians seem to think nothing peculiar about corruption. It is everywhere.

Indians tolerate corrupt individuals rather than correct them.

No race can be congenitally corrupt.

But can a race be corrupted by its culture?

To know why Indians are corrupt, look at their patterns and practices.

First:

Religion is transactional in India.

Indians give God cash and anticipate an out-of-turn reward.

Such a plea acknowledges that favours are needed for the undeserving.

In the world outside the temple walls, such a transaction is named “bribe”.

A wealthy Indian gives not cash to temples, but gold crowns and such baubles.

His gifts can not feed the poor. His pay-off is for God. He thinks it will be wasted if it goes to a needy man.

In June 2009, The Hindu published a report of Karnataka minister G. Janardhan Reddy gifting a crown of gold and diamonds worth Rs 45 crore to Tirupati.

India’s temples collect so much that they don’t know what to do with it. Billions are gathering dust in temple vaults.

When Europeans came to India they built schools. When Indians go to Europe & USA, they build temples.

Indians believe that if God accepts money for his favours, then nothing is wrong in doing the same thing. This is why Indians are so easily corruptible.

Indian culture accommodates such transactions morally. There is no real stigma. An utterly corrupt JayaLalita can make a comeback, just unthinkable in the West.

Second –

Indian moral ambiguity towards corruption is visible in its history. Indian history tells of the capture of cities and kingdoms after guards were paid off to open the gates, and commanders paid off to surrender.

This is unique to India.

Indians’ corrupt nature has meant limited warfare on the subcontinent.

It is striking how little Indians have actually fought compared to ancient Greece and modern Europe.

The Turks’ battles with Nadir Shah were vicious and fought to the finish.

In India fighting wasn’t needed, bribing was enough to see off armies.

Any invader willing to spend cash could brush aside India’s kings, no matter how many tens of thousands soldiers were in their infantry.

Little resistance was given by the Indians at the “ Battle ” of Plassey.

Clive paid off Mir Jaffar and all of Bengal folded to an army of 3,000.

There was always a financial exchange to taking Indian forts. Golconda was captured in 1687 after the secret back door was left open.

Mughals vanquished Marathas and Rajputs with nothing but bribes.

The Raja of Srinagar gave up Dara Shikoh’s son Sulaiman to Aurangzeb after receiving a bribe.

There are many cases where Indians participated on a large scale in treason due to bribery.

Question is: Why Indians have a transactional culture while other ‘civilized’ nations don’t?

Third –

Indians do not believe in the theory that they all can rise if each of them behaves morally, because that is not the message of their faith.

Their caste system separates them.

They don’t believe that all men are equal.

This resulted in their division and migration to other religions.

Many Hindus started their own faith like Sikh, Jain, Buddha and many converted to Christianity and Islam.

The result is that Indians don’t trust one another.

There are no Indians in India, there are Hindus, Christians, Muslims and what not.

Indians forget that 400 years ago they all belonged to one faith.

This division evolved an unhealthy culture. The inequality has resulted in a corrupt society, in India every one is thus against everyone else, except God ­and even he must be bribed.

Brian from Godzone
NEW ZEALAND


I have often thought so but have also said “it cannot be so bad”! May be I am wrong but I.did not have iti me to join the bribe takers even though it means to be one with our Gods!! Would youxhort all and sundry to explore change.? SHANTONU SEN.

http://tennews.in/a-new-zealaders-view-on-reason-for-corruption-in-india/
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Sorry, this is a rehash of an old post.

http://creative.sulekha.com/indians-are-hobbesian-culture-of-self-interest-a-fwd_525700_blog


Prasad Seshadri Says 6 months ago[FONT=&quot]It is not necessary to point out inadequacies of other cultures in order to defend our culture. The fact is, if one visits Switzerland or Australia or New Zealand or USA, the average man can live their entire lives without encountering a single act of corruption. That is not possible in India. That is enough of an indictment of how things are in India. None of the Australians in Australia today had anything to do with eliminating the Aborigines or none of the current people USA had a hand in grabbing the land from the American Indians through violence. We are talking about life in these countries TODAY. An average human being encounters far less corruption in countries like Australia, NZ or USA than in India. This is an irrefutable fact and unless we acknowledge there is a problem, WE WILL NOT PROGRESS. Pointing to events that happened hundreds of years ago in other countries will not fix India’s problem TODAY. We have to set high standards for OURSELVES which are independent of what other countries and races do.
[/FONT]
 
Last edited:

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
LOL..
Harsh but true.

Our Hindu culture is like Maya to a great extent..it shields us from the Truth.

We are asked to surrender to God but yet we believe doing rituals for self or even the dead and with the danaam ..one can erase karmic afflictions or seek higher heavens...yes its almost bribing.

Many feel they can cheat in their day to day life..then do donations to temples with their haraam money and suddenly lo behold even haraam is halaal.


At each step our culture contradicts itself..
Samadarshinah is cock and bull cos one either sees cock or bull and no atma as we find in text books.

Its a bipolar culture with highs and lows and an equilibrium never exists.
 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
Many talk as if they alone are not corrupt and point fingers at india being a corrupt nation.

We opted for socialism with state control.

This lead to scarce resources being rationed by the ruling elite and some of the elite helped themselves to the resources circumventing the rules they themselves had set up for the common man.

Capitalism or capitalist countries are not less corrupt.

Only corruption is restricted to the elite and there is no small corruption.

If all resources are in abundance then , the need to bribe for easy access will reduce.

Also removing quotas and application of discretion by some and following transparent methods will reduce corruption.

I think india figures 35th in global list.

Corruption cannot be eradicated in any country .

Only it can be reduced.
 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
In many slum colonies in delhi, there is the mukhiya or the village tough who manages to get all state benefits likewidows pensions, aadhar , ration and other cards , deal with

police whom they fear.Of course his services come with a price tag which the residents pay willingly. He offers protection in return.These men provide vote banks for politicians

and funded by political parties also.Slum people attend rallies of political parties and get transport, food and money for it.These are enablers for the poor.lol
 

biswa

New member
My in-laws family believes that the only worthwhile charity is to give to a temple. And preferably, most of it to the aarathi thali so that the priest pays special attention to the yajaman. Talk about transactional.
 

krish44

Gold Member
Gold Member
I like the idea of putting money in aarathi plate of priests.

I also prefer giving money directly to persons rendering a service keeping middlemen out.

Temple priests deserve a better deal.
 
How many New Zealanders does it take to change a light bulb?

None.

Because they prefer to stay in darkness and speculate about conjured "Indians" whom they have never lived among, and "corruption" of which they are the very embodiment. (What did they do to the native Maoris?)

Piling lies upon lies and creating a huge heap from inherited and acquired ignorance does not transform the pile into a golden pyramid. Let us bring our magnifying glass to a few of these bright gems.

"Indians give God cash and anticipate an out-of-turn reward." Hah! True?

During church services, Christians do not pass round "collection boxes" (in fact deep thick "Christmas stockings" sewed on metal loops with long handles) for cash donations? Anticipating out-of-turn reward?

Other Christians do not go on regular house-to-house visits to collect donations for God, for God's purposes (i.e. converting non-Christians), for God's house (extending existing churches, building new churches, repairing old churches, housing church workers, installing coloured glass windows, hanging chandeliers, buying new furniture, et cetera ad nauseam? Anticipating out-of-turn reward, again?

Muslims do not run on parallel lines to secure God's help in this life and promise of Firdaus hereafter? Plus collect additional cash to buy cows for mass slaughter during Eid-al-Adha every year?

"India’s temples collect so much that they don’t know what to do with it. Billions are gathering dust in temple vaults."

Please wake up.

The Indian Government and the State governments grab the money, smash their way into the ancient vaults of temples such as that of Lord Sri Pathmanabha-swaami in Kerala. They claim all this is "public money" and use it to advance the welfare of "minorities", such as paying for haj expenses of Muslims.

(Please think of Roman soldiers destroying
and plundering the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. And carrying to Rome the sacred menorah, the Torah scrolls, the wine cups, and other rare temple artefacts. Think also of the Portuguese and the Spaniards adventurers and soldiers slaughtering the natives of Central and South America, plundering their temples and sacred places, and carrying away thousands of shiploads of melted down "Inca gold" and silver. [English pirates called "privateers" under Francis Drake and others intercepted some of these treasure-ships and stole their precious cargoes.])

(At home, think of the "Peacock Throne of Jehangir", made from jewels plundered form Hindu temples.)

"When Europeans came to India they built schools. When Indians go to Europe & USA, they build temples."

Really?


When Europeans came to India, they heavily taxed the already poor local people. From this robbed wealth, they built churches. They imported alien missionaries to "convert the heathen". The schools were to further this evangelical push and to establish Christianity in place of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism. The Europeans used slave labour or convict labour to erect their structures.

When Hindus went to USA, UK, Europe, and Australia, their brought their own money to build places pf worship, or saved money by slaving for the Europeans, British and Americans. They did not use slave labour or convict labour, unlike the foreign invaders.


"In India fighting wasn’t needed, bribing was enough to see off armies. Any invader willing to spend cash could brush aside India’s kings, no matter how many tens of thousands soldiers were in their infantry. Little resistance was given by the Indians at the “ Battle ” of Plassey. Clive paid off Mir Jaffar and all of Bengal folded to an army of 3,000. There was always a financial exchange to taking Indian forts. Golconda was captured in 1687 after the secret back door was left open. Mughals vanquished Marathas and Rajputs with nothing but bribes."


Why emphasise over and over again that it was the Muslims such as the Mughals that brought massive national corruption into India? Why repeat that it was the English who refined and benefited tremendously by this same culture of corruption, and have left behind this cancer that is today eating into India's bowels?

Wasn't the Battle of Plessey between the Muslim invaders of India and the English? Did the Mughals call themselves Indians? Or is this another fantasy of Englsh-origin New Zealanders?

"They (Indians) don’t believe that all men are equal. This resulted in their division and migration to other religions. Many Hindus started their own faith like Sikh, Jain, Buddha and many converted to Christianity and Islam. The result is that Indians don’t trust one another. There are no Indians in India, there are Hindus, Christians, Muslims and what not."

One wonders whether New Zealanders, who are mainly Christians, have heard of the injunction: "Pluck out the mote from thine own eye before thou pluckest the beam from thy brother's eye"?

Do Christians today believe that all men are equal? Did they ever? Were their ancestors not Jews? Are their successors not Muslims?

Do Christians today even believe that all Christians are equal? Do they trust one another?

Are Roman Catholic Christians, who look up only to the Pope in Rome as infallible in faith and morals, welcome to attend and worship in churches belonging to the Anglican congregations who look up to the Archibishop of Canterbury as fhe final arbiter on matters of Christian faith? Do Catholics or Anglicans recognise the primacy of the Orthodox Churches -- Syrian, Greek, Russian, to name a few? Why do other Christians have to be re-baptised on becoming Catholics?

Where do the Methodists stand? Where the Lutherans? Where the Baptists? Where the Presbyterians? Where the Salvation Army, the myriad of Free Churches, Reformed Churches, National Churches, and so on and so forth?

By the way, "Brian from Godzone", how many Europeans are there in Europe? None? How Many Britons in Britain? None?

Is not Europe split into more than 30 countries West of Asia, North of Africa, each with its own language, culture, history? Are not the British irrevocably split into Welsh, Scots, Irish, Engliish (and migrants)?

Why orate about India, of which you know nothing, or less than nothing?

Ever heard of Rajiv Malhotra? Look up his book, "The Battle for Sanskrit". Look up also his other book "Breaking India".

Indians can solve their own problems. We don't have Maoris. Or "Red Indians". Or "abos".

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Mr. Iyer,
Please read post#2

It is not necessary to point out inadequacies of other cultures in order to defend our culture. The fact is, if one visits Switzerland or Australia or New Zealand or USA, the average man can live their entire lives without encountering a single act of corruption.
 
F

Falcon

Guest

People who live in glass house should not throw stone

'Corruption is real in New Zealand, it's happening'

Excerpts

She said the best defence was a company culture that made it clear that at all levels of a company the highest standards of ethical behaviour are expected.

"It's a matter of tone at the top that makes it clear that certain behaviours are not OK and that there is a way for people to speak out and make it known that things are happening that shouldn't happen."

She said the most common form of corruption was undeclared conflicts of interest, followed by gifts and trips, along with doing favours, and giving excessive commissions. The most common form of detection was tip-offs or whistle blowing.

Read more at: http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/333491/corruption-is-real-in-new-zealand-it-s-happening
 
Last edited by a moderator:
F

Falcon

Guest
This may remind one the proverb: Pot calling the kettle black.....LOL

List of political scandals in New Zealand


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1890s


· 1892 – Mayor of Wellington Arthur Winton Brown absconds to Australia to escape the consequences of the possible collapse of his businesses.
· 1898 – Liberal Party MP William Larnach commits suicide in a parliament committee room, the result of impending financial disasters and (reputedly) rumours over a sexual relationship between his wife and her step-son.[SUP][1][/SUP]
· 1899 – The "Marine Scandal". John Hutcheson fellow MP Frederick Pirani accused Prime Minister Richard Seddon and Minister of Marine William Hall-Jones of using ministerial influence in order to obtain Mariners certificates for unqualified candidates, which was in contravention to the recent Shipping and Seamen's Act. However, the Marine Commission report declared that the charges were unfounded. Hutcheson resigned his seat in order to exonerate himself triggering a by-election, which he won.[SUP][2][3][4][/SUP]

1900s



A cartoon depicting the "Voucher incident" showing New Liberal moderates distancing themselves from Fisher.
· 1905 – Francis Fisher, a ringleader of the New Liberal Party caused much controversy in the so-called "voucher incident",[SUP][5][/SUP] in which he alleged that Richard Seddon's son had been received payment from a government department for work he had not done. The allegations were subsequently disproven, and the New Liberals suffered considerable public backlash.

1910s


· 1918 – MP Paddy Webb is controversially sent to jail for refusing military service.[SUP][6][/SUP]

1930s


· 1934 – Sir Āpirana Ngata then Minister of Native Affairs in the United-Reform Coalition government resigns as minister after accusations of departmental maladministration and favouritism were supported by a Royal Commission.
· 1935 – Officials from New Zealand's national radio service, at the time part of the New Zealand Post Office, attempt to block a broadcast by the popular Rev. Colin Scrimgeour, fearing that he would advise his listeners to vote for the opposition Labour Party. The National Party government is implicated, causing a furore.[SUP][7][/SUP]
· 1938–39 – The Lee Affair: Severe disharmony is caused within the Labour Party by a long running feud between Prime MinisterMichael Joseph Savage and senior Labour Party member John A. Lee.

1940s


· 1942 – Herbert Kyle resigned from the National Party at the climax of a personality feud with leader Sidney Holland. Kyle accused Holland of blackmailing him into becoming a "yes man" or be expelled from the party. Kyle remained an independent MP and retired at the 1943 election.

1970s



Sir Robert Muldoon (centre) was at the centre of several political controversies during his time as Prime Minister (1975–1984).
· 1970 – An ugly, public leadership struggle between Vernon Cracknell and his deputy John O'Brien for leadership of the Social Credit Party ended in disaster. It cumulated with brawling between supporters of each candidate with considerable damage done to the party's image. O'Brien was the victor, but his blunt and confrontational style caused him to lose his position after only a short time in office. He then split from Social Credit, founding his own New Democratic Party.
· 1976 – Fitzgerald v Muldoon: Prime Minister Robert Muldoon advised the Governor-General to abolish Labour's superannuation scheme without new legislation. In the case it was found that revoking a law in such a manner without consent of Parliament was illegal under the Bill of Rights 1689.[SUP][8][/SUP]
· 1976 – Labour MP Gerald O'Brien is charged with molesting two boys. Case thrown out.[SUP][9][/SUP]
· 1977 – The Moyle Affair: Muldoon accuses high-ranking Labour Party MP Colin Moyle of having been questioned by the police on suspicion of homosexual activities, at that time illegal in New Zealand. Moyle is forced to resign from parliament.
· 1977 – Muldoon advised Queen Elizabeth II to appoint Sir Keith Holyoake as Governor-General upon Sir Denis Blundell's term ending. As the Governor-General is a non-partisan position this caused much controversy with Labour leader Bill Rowlingcriticizing the appointment as cronyism and complaining that he had not been consulted on the appointment, stating he would remove Holyoake should Labour win the 1978 general election.[SUP][10][/SUP]

1980s


· 1984 – Independent MP John Kirk, the son of former Prime Minister Norman Kirk, absconds, owing more than $280,000. He is arrested in the US, held in prison, and then extradited to New Zealand.[SUP][6][/SUP]
· 1984 – Following the 1984 general election a constitutional crisis occurred when Muldoon refused to act on instruction of the incoming government, causing a growing currency crisis to worsen. Eventually he relented, after his position as National Party leader was threatened by members of his caucus.[SUP][11][/SUP] Prior to the snap election, Muldoon had announced its date to journalists while being very clearly drunk.[SUP][12][13][/SUP]
· 1984 – National Cabinet Minister Keith Allen passed away. Immediately prior to his death Muldoon had refused to accept Allen's resignation from cabinet. Allen found the burdens of holding the office combined with his worsening affliction of diabetes were making his life too stressful. Other National MPs such as Hugh Templeton and Don McKinnon think Muldoon's harsh treatment of Allen contributed significantly to his premature death.[SUP][14][/SUP]
· 1986 – The Māori loan affair: an unauthorised attempt by Te Puni Kōkiri (the government's Māori Affairs Department) to raise money overseas for Māori development.

1990s



Read more at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_scandals_in_New_Zealand
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Mr. Falcon,

Please point out the factual inaccuracies in this post, if you can, Falconji. Try to reflect on the content of the message and ask if it is true. Don’t shoot the messenger of this message.. that is a major flaw in argument called ad hominem. And don’t say that others were more corrupt – because that will not lessen the indictment of the corruption in Indian culture.

It will be in the best interests of Indians if they have the courage to accept the fact they are a very oppressive culture meeting out inequality and slavery to their own countrymen and bribing everyone including the gods in their temples at every opportunity and also deeply mired in superstitions in irrational thinking including astrology, vastu and such. In every busy temple, if you pay more, you get a shorter queue and longer darshan of the Lord. They are out in every walk of life. And we make excuses for that instead of curtailing it. How pathetic all this is… only accepting the fact of our weaknesses will help us overcome them one day.

http://tennews.in/a-new-zealaders-view-on-reason-for-corruption-in-india/


A pot calling kettle black does not make it white. When you point finger remember there are 3 fingers pointing back at you.
 
Last edited:
F

Falcon

Guest

It is a harsh commentary. It made me angry at first, but
sadly it is true.

/


Mr.Prasad,

This is your comment in the O.P.,

Please go through the WhatsApp message again.

Now, can you justify as to what has been stated in the OP as true.....? If it is true does it happens only here in India...?

Can you explain point by point...?

Don't try to argue 'my way or highway' style.....LOL

I am against comparing apples with oranges.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
If you read the post#2.
You would realize that the original article was from Sulekha.com and by an Indian from India.


As usual with your post, you like to kill the messenger (literally). I do not want to get with you in a <removed> competition. It is like arguing with Trump.

If Indians(or for that matter any one else) can not accept their faults, one can not solve their problems.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
F

Falcon

Guest
If you read the post#2.
You would realize that the original article was from Sulekha.com and by an Indian from India.

.


BTW why did the caption say..... A New Zealanders view on .... LOL

And what did
Brian from Godzone NEW ZEALAND is to do.... LOL

As usual with your post, you like to kill the messenger (literally). I do not want to get with you in a pissing competition. It is like arguing with Trump.

.

<Delete>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
F

Falcon

Guest
<Deleted>
<Do not be obnoxious>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member

BTW why did the caption say..... A New Zealanders view on .... LOL

And what did
Brian from Godzone NEW ZEALAND is to do.... LOL



<Delete>


Once a thread has been started, and posted, you can not change the heading. (just for information).
 

biswa

New member
I like the idea of putting money in aarathi plate of priests.

I also prefer giving money directly to persons rendering a service keeping middlemen out.

Temple priests deserve a better deal.

Ok Mr Krish let me debate you on this subject.

Let me first agree with your statement about temple priest need to be better paid. And keep that aside for a moment.

First of all, are you calling the temple a middleman? But you went to visit a temple right? Otherwise, you could call a priest directly to your house.

If you think deeper, both temple and priest are middlemen, because presumably you only need to communicate with God.

Aarathi plate donation is fine, but that should be more like a tip. When you eat at a restaurant, do you short-change the establishment on its prices, and instead give the money to waiters as tip?
 
OP
OP
prasad1

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Aarathi plate donation is fine, but that should be more like a tip. When you eat at a restaurant, do you short-change the establishment on its prices, and instead give the money to waiters as tip?


Wow, can you that?:loco:

spirituality has no relation with money.
Religions thrive because of money.
I am only speaking about India and Indians now:
We only want to please someone to get something. We never do it anonymously. Even in Temple, we want our name mentioned.
 

digisol

Member
Gentlemen,
I quote Shri.Prasad.
Prasad Seshadri Says 6 months ago "It is not necessary to point out inadequacies of other cultures in order to defend our culture. The fact is, if one visits Switzerland or Australia or New Zealand or USA, the average man can live their entire lives without encountering a single act of corruption. That is not possible in India."

If that was what was meant and said by the whatsapp msg. by the newzealander and only that and nothing more than that, I am sure all forum members might have agreed.
But even a cursory reading shows his reasoning is flawed.
One observes something. And deduces wrongly based on ones own limitations. What is observed may be right. The analysis like I said, is flawed and invites vehement criticism.
History seems to be out of bounds but still to understand moral depravity, caused by greed, lets read up a little on opium wars.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top
Thank you for visiting TamilBrahmins.com

You seem to have an Ad Blocker on.

We depend on advertising to keep our content free for you. Please consider whitelisting us in your ad blocker so that we can continue to provide the content you have come here to enjoy.

Alternatively, consider upgrading your account to enjoy an ad-free experience along with numerous other benefits. To upgrade your account, please visit the account upgrades page

You can also donate financially if you can. Please Click Here on how you can do that.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks