What is the reason for love/ intercaste marriages

[SwamiTaBra]

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[kunjuppu]

<removed> not needed </removed>

 

[pannvalan]

I dont find it was written in good taste about the future generation TB boys.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Fantastic! What was offensive in what I said|? I was mostly echoing Kanchi Paramacharya's observations and concerns. As a putative forum to address the issues concerning the tamil brahmin community, the deletion of my comments smacks of arbitrariness? I would what Swami Vivekananda spoke of role of brahmins at Madras in his thanks giving address to the city's peoples... I'm also optimistic not because there are any particular signs evident today, but sudden transformations do take place sending to toss all logic..

 

[kunjuppu]

swami,

you have touched on a raw nerve here with your queries. you are also new to the forum.

also this topic has been discussed before.

for starters, you might want to verify your bona fide. you can understand that anyone can come here and ask inciting queries, sit back while seemingly innocent members get into brawls. it is lots of fun to watch, but i think the admin folks have had enough of that.

i am quite sure you would understand. there are other threads which are open. maybe you can post views in some of those..and that way we will also get to know you better.

best wishes..

 

[SwamiTaBra]

On your response

Sir,

Thanks for your response.

I'd welcome steps by administrators to validate the bonafides of all those who are willing to get registered in this website.

As for me, I'm a "dyed in the wool" tamil brahmin in my mid-40s.

May I draw your attention to what someone has pointed, though in a different context about the lack of community discipline, kattupadu, as in other caste based communities. This is not to suggest there should be sort of brutality on inter-caste couples as witnessed in parts of north India. As a community that prides on upholding the traditional-intellectual wealth of the nation, nay the civilisation, we ought to nurture (rather revive) the culture of introspection with active participation of the younger generations.

Change is inevitable, but the question is whether we will attempt to fashion it or rather accept what comes along.

With regards,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

It would be interesting to know the gender ratio within the TB community.... I don't think foeticide was practised in the community anytime in the last few decades so as to bring an imbalance. I suppose what is happening is akin to what economist call frictional unemployment where jobs are available and people too are available, but employment does not result due to reasons such skill-sets mismatch, low wages..

 

[sangom]

Sir,

Thanks for your response.

I'd welcome steps by administrators to validate the bonafides of all those who are willing to get registered in this website.

As for me, I'm a "dyed in the wool" tamil brahmin in my mid-40s.

May I draw your attention to what someone has pointed, though in a different context about the lack of community discipline, kattupadu, as in other caste based communities. This is not to suggest there should be sort of brutality on inter-caste couples as witnessed in parts of north India. As a community that prides on upholding the traditional-intellectual wealth of the nation, nay the civilisation, we ought to nurture (rather revive) the culture of introspection with active participation of the younger generations.

Change is inevitable, but the question is whether we will attempt to fashion it or rather accept what comes along.

With regards,
Swami

Shri Swami,

I am intervening in your post to Shri Kunjuppu. Kindly excuse me.

As I see it from the various posts in this forum, during the last 6 months or so, there are mainly two types of opinions. Some who want to fashion the changes and others who feel that it is best that changes are allowed to take place in the natural course and that we do not try to give it a certain pre-conceived artificial shape. I belong to the second group.

I agree that the brahmins may still pride themselves for traditional, intellectual wealth of the nation, or even the civilization, but I doubt very much whether we will be correct in doing so. Have other communities, religions also contributed to these? If we are referring to the hindu religious scriptures, is it not true that most of the research is taking place abroad, and many palm-leaf manuscripts are in foreign collections, not with us?

It would be interesting to know the gender ratio within the TB community.... I don't think foeticide was practised in the community anytime in the last few decades so as to bring an imbalance. I suppose what is happening is akin to what economist call frictional unemployment where jobs are available and people too are available, but employment does not result due to reasons such skill-sets mismatch, low wages..

The problem with tambrams right now is, as far as I know, the surplus boys in 30+ age group, waiting to get married and non-availability of girls for them. There could be
many reasons for this dilemma. Of these, brahmin girls marrying NB boys had been discussed in another thread. The brahmin boys not coming up to the minimum expectations of the average tambram girl, has also been highlighted by some members. The suggestion for inter-caste marriage for these boys has not been acceptable to the tambram people in general. In such a situation gender ratio as of now may not help us now. May be if we find any significant imbalance we can be prepared for some remedial way-out for the future. For example, if we make a census of tambrams in the age groups 1-5 years, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, and find boys are more than girls in any of these groups, we can be prepared for inter-caste marriages. But the most difficult part is the survey/ census; can we have a statistical sample and then use the data to project the overall picture? Experts may provide guidance.

 

[pannvalan]

The census proposed requires mobilisation of massive resources and it will consume a lot of time say, some 2 years, so that the findings compiled will be reliable and close to accuracy.

It requires co-ordination at various levels and the methodology also must be made transparent and simple, well in advance.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sir,

Thanks for your response.

I'd welcome steps by administrators to validate the bonafides of all those who are willing to get registered in this website.

As for me, I'm a "dyed in the wool" tamil brahmin in my mid-40s.

May I draw your attention to what someone has pointed, though in a different context about the lack of community discipline, kattupadu, as in other caste based communities. This is not to suggest there should be sort of brutality on inter-caste couples as witnessed in parts of north India. As a community that prides on upholding the traditional-intellectual wealth of the nation, nay the civilisation, we ought to nurture (rather revive) the culture of introspection with active participation of the younger generations.

Change is inevitable, but the question is whether we will attempt to fashion it or rather accept what comes along.

With regards,
Swami

Swami,


I can only tell you what I think. I am always going through a learning process, and what I say today, I may not defend tomorrow. So please do not expect any consistency from me. also I might come across very definitive, which in reality I am not. I feel I live in a grey area, and often find it difficult to judge any situations.


It does not mean that I do not make decisions. Infact lack of decision or action, to me is another thirusangu sorgam state which I abhor. there! that is my dose of introspection for you for this post

Introspection is a very heavy word, which I feel may be outside the capacity of a good number of vociferous members of this forum. To me introspection, means detaching ourselves from our greys, and decomposing them into the blacks and whites. I feel, that many here would rest solely on the whites and even to accept the existence of black, to them, is anathema.

This is evidenced in many posts,with code words like supporting our tradition, the greatness of Vedas, upholding the traditional intellectual wealth of the nation etc etc. to me this also means, I read it, as don’t rock the current boat, as it floats, by itself mostly, and let us reach the destination wherever the boat takes us. Many of us are honest enough to moan the direction the boat is taking, but would do nothing to take control and manage it, to our benefit.

This is not saying that individually our members leave fate to its own hands. We have members shouting through the roofs against intercaste marriages, but quietly announcing to me in private message that their own child married out of caste or nationality, because their own child found true love. Apparently other’s children are incapable finding true love outside of tambram community. Call this phenomenon what you want, but I think, with this attitude, introspection is a non starter.

A good introspection should examine what is in it in our community that bothers us. I find it disturbing in the tendency to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. for example, a learned member opined that Brahmins, over the eons, have altered practices to suit their convenience, and supported it, with valid quotes. No one here answered her points with counterpoints, but focussed on her caste and her insuitability to be present in this forum. This, inspite of her being, among the the better read re our heritage in this forum.

Having given you a take on your initial salvo, let me hand this back to you lead the thread in whatever direction you may seem fit.



Best wishes.

 

[pannvalan]

Kunjuppu,

Changing with the times has happened in every community and Brahmins are no exception to this natural phenomenon.

பழையன கழிதலும், புதுவன புகுதலும்
வழுவல; கால வகையி னானே. - நன்னூல்

But calling such changes or adaptation as opportunism or inconsistency or even planned conspiracy is the worst kind of insult one can heap on us.

One small example. When Indira Gandhi's funeral took place, why Sanskrit scholars and Veda pandits from Tamilnadu were called in greater number, when Kaasi, Ayodhya or Allahabad could have provided them with the required men?
I noticed that pronunciation of Sanskrit scholars from Tamilnadu was simply superb and flawless. If any one has any doubts they can watch how brahmins from other states recite mantras or Sanskrit words in daily usage. I have seen the worst of the lot are Bengalis in this respect.

In Uttar Pradesh and Bihar the plight of Brahmins by and large is pitiable and it is an irrefutable fact.

Another important point is -

Brahmins from time immemorial have always depended on some group or class to eke out their living. (அண்டிப் பிழைத்தவர்கள் தாம்).

It could be Kshatriyas, Yadavs, Trading and Business community (Chettiars and the like), the British etc. They never ruled any kingdom or a province. Even Muslims of Mughals period trusted brahmins for their intelligence, wisdom and loyalty (may be this loyalty was created out of fear).

Though they (Brahmins) formulated several code of ethics for governance and general living, implementation part was left to the rulers and in that they had no role to play.

Answer one simple question: How many sentences were pronounced by Brahmins of yore and how many executions took place under their supervision?

They at best played the role of only advisory council or jury. They never interfered with actual administration. (Story of Chanakya is a rare historical occurrence).

I have my own doubts regarding the true identity of the authors of all dharma sastras, because in my opinion except the fourth varna all had their share. Even today we see the downtrodden do not have any voice in formulating policies and in public administration. So as per the present scheme of things whoever has no voice or role in the public administration belongs to this 4th varna only, regardless of his/her caste by birth. They are just tools in the hands of the administrative class.

To throw the entire blame on one particular community - in this case, brahmins - for all social inequities, imbalances and even discrimination is totally unfair and clearly unacceptable.

Kunjuppu, if you want quotes from history to substantiate my case, I have to write a separate book only.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear pann,

It is not my aim to make you angry or upset, which I appear to be doing.

Please understand when we talk so much about being ‘the guardians of vedas and stuff like that’, along with it goes a social responsibility. After all, the Brahmins were the arbiters of the faith and called the shots as to what is moral and what is not.

I, for one, don’t feel threatened when someone criticizes our community. I would look into the validity of those statements, and in most cases, there are valid points, points that could be explained and some plain bunkum. I would never shoot the messenger, but would argue on the validity of each point.

I think there needs to be a mindset willing to look at ourselves through other’s eyes, in order to be objective. If we get emotional or angry or feel threatened or insulted, the game is over – advantage to the opponent. We need to learn to sit back, relax, review the points, and one by one, address it.

Let us stop at this point and proceed to how to view ourselves through the eyes of the others.

For example, I have found what I think of myself as viewed by my wife is quite different. The way she describes me, could be, to me, describing a completely different person.

It is even more different with my children. Children mark us hard, but always fair. I am amazed at their sense of perception and ability to see through deceipt and hypocracy. The biggest gift we can get from our children is an honest feedback.

How many in our society would ever venture to seek feedback, let alone accept a critical study as valid? This, with our own family, with whom we move in day and day out and whose loyalty we take for granted. When there is so much disparity even within our own family of our position and perception, when we extrapolate it to society at large, is it not surprising that our sense of what we are and what others see us, to put it mildly, is different.

I always refer to the Johari window as a tool for self analysis. If you don’t mind, I am posting it yet again, the link to Wikipedia, with references to the four windows.

Johari window - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any introspection can begin with a simple exercise of filling the 4 windows for ourselves (or maybe 3 of them), and asking our spouses to do the same. And enjoy the differences of perception. Without getting angry or upset. That would be the beginning of a great exercise in mind building and incidentally also of the character. Atleast I think so.

Thank you.

Ps. Knowing how to pronounce Sanskrit etc etc, I think, you will agree, is no substitute for critical study and validation. i will go along with sentiments expressed elsewhere that the bulk of critical study of scriptures is now being done in the west, which again we look at with suspicion.

Poverty of Brahmins of other states is beyond our domain of interest. We are just dragging on our head, unknown baggages of others, and this is bound to cause only unhappiness.

ART did not feel threatened or need to defend any attack on the Brahmins, because he had the fortitude and strength that comes out of knowledge. I have found in my own experience, that an average tambram gets increasingly conservative as he ages till nearing 80s, when he realizes that there is a bigger truth out there and many of the incidentals that we were frightened of, were phantoms of our imaginations and fears. If not anything else, we can atleast learn this from ART.

 

[pannvalan]

Certain clarifications here.

1. I am not angry, but definitely feel sorry if one group is blamed for all bad things in the society.

2. If you remember well, in many of my posts, I have consistently maintained that I have more NB friends than Bs.
Therefore, I respect NBs as long as they are cordial in their approach and style. I treat them as my equal, if they
treat me as their equal. Simple, but no generalization is here.

3. I did my Master's in Psychology in Annamalai University and hence know the Johari Window concept better.

4. Criticism is alright but spewing venom is entirely different.

5. When one's arguments are found to be weaker than that of the opponents, one resorts to abuse and aggressiveness.

6. You can try to reason out with people in your close circle, but not with public at large. No one listens to an
individual's voice, unless he is a hero or a popular leader.

7. When someone is brainwashed to believe that his poverty and illiteracy are due to the actions of my ancestors, how
will we change or convince him?

8. When he encounters further pitfalls and hurdles in life, he begins to think it's all due to the handiwork of the so called
forward class people. This sows a seed of hatred and animosity in his mind towards FCs.

9. The kind of empathy, openness and transparency you suggest are not followed by majority of the population. Worse
still, I am blamed for my lack of diplomacy and manners, if I speak truth and only truth.

 

[kunjuppu]

i do not have any more further notes for Pannvalan. he has stated, and consistently at that, through pr msgs and publicly where he stands. i respect him for it after all he is of my blood.

personally, i do not consider anyone of our tribe, with diametrically opposite views of mine, as my enemy. it is after all a vasudeva kutumbam, and i know nara will challenge me, as to why my concept of vasudeva does not include the whole world.

my mind is small, and i am limited in my faculties. as such i have problems to even extending this concept of tribe at times, to many a folk here, who have come and made their presence known through stands on issues that i can not even fathom, let alone tolerate.

thinking tambrams, should give some thought, to our legacy. legacy of our generation. there is a general tendency to unquestionable venerate our ancestors.

just to refresh our memories, till 1900s, we were all part and parcel of the tamil tribes, accepted and had our place of respect, regard and above all a feeling of belonging to the waters and hills of tamil nadu. though i am personally from west of the border, the heart of our family always lay with this mythical tamil land, which became a reality to us, only with my generation growing up in madras.

i grew up in an innocent madras. i was a minority in my neighbourhood which was a mixed one, with hindus dominating but a strong presence of catholics. i went to a catholic school. i was delivered into this world by a syrian christian. my best friend, mentor and guardian was a hindu nadar guy, deva.

i never knew the difference between us and them, till i landed in iit, when for the first time i had classes filled with tambrams, many of them with baggages of arrogance and a feeling of superiority. i could not fit in with that attitude, and more than 40 years later, i am wont to look at the legacy of the tambrams of my generation to the next.

this legacy of dislike and not-of-us came with our grandparents and has continued. probably the feeling was strongest at the height of MK's power in the seventies and eighties. it has continued to linger, and we now have respected members who know no other than to recall the insults, the hatreds and above all a sense of lost entitlement.

again, thinking folks of this generation, should ask themselves, is this the legacy that we like to leave to our children?

43 years after dmk landed in power, we still do not know how to handle the dravidian reformation. starting from the cheapest to the most prestigious media, tambram controlled papers have consistently defaced and demeaned the rule of the dravidians. these look up to a mythical mystical north, where their salvation supposedly lies.

to me, yes, there will be a salvation, but at the expense of your language and culture and foodl. you can have your fill of vedas, as long as it is stuffed with parathas and subzi!!

many in my generation took one way out - we emigrated. whether by choice or by forces beyond our control, our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins.

those outside of tamil nadu, have their own way of escaping this baggage - they marry outside the caste, state and blend with their adopted lands of kannadigas or telugus. far away from the north, clarion calls for brahmin resurgence is heard, and we have khaki and banian clad skinny youth, with threads across their shoulders and bamboo sticks in their hands, and march to the drumbeat of a mini hitler.

is this the legacy that we want to leave our children. do we want them to feel and belong, or ...

my children and those of us who emigrated, whether to the usa, australia, singapore or canada, have bred a new generation, who are proud of their new homeland. you will find tambram youths proudly doing National Service for the singapore state. you will find tambram youths serving the u.s. army in iraq and afghanistan. but in tamil nadu, you will find the bitter remnants, who will bicker around whether to admit a non brahmin to this forum.

what a legacy!

 

[pannvalan]

Sorry to interrupt you.

You have presented the issue from a macro point of view. There is nothing wrong in it.

But for people still living in TN, things look different.


1. Even if our boys and girls score 95 per cent in their +2 exams, they are unable to choose a institution, course and branch of study of their choice.

2. In many wings of the government - Central, State, Quasi-govt and Local bodies, employment opportunities for TBs are too meagre or negligible.

3. Worse still, even in periodical promotions, TBs are pushed to the bottom and by the time they get one promotion,
people from the reserved category belonging to the same batch of recruitment move faster and earn 3 promotions.
It is not uncommon to see even sub-ordinates becoming one's boss within 5 to 7 year period. All this becomes a
damper and causes frustration and demoralisation in the TBs community.

4. This is what called 'reverse discrimination'. If favours shown to a person or a group keeping the birth identity as the yardstick are wrong, then discrimination shown against a person or a group basing on their birth identity is also
equally condemnable.

5. If the super bright students are denied equal opportunities, what does the future hold for them? I repeat, they
expect only equal opportunities, not preferential treatment. If that is not happening, despondency will be the result.

6. I shall tell you things have changed better today and at one-to-level or in a small group, brahmins are treated as
equals by others. But in a larger sphere, the hatred towards them still runs as an undercurrent and it manifests
itself, now and then. Nobody can dispute this.

7. This is happening only in Tamilnadu, not in other states. That's why the present generation wants to migrate to other states or foreign countries for employment or business. This has further weakened the cause of the people who chose not to migrate, but stayed back swallowing all insults and facing attacks (verbal and sometimes physical).

I hope you will have still many friends and relatives living in Tamilnadu. Why don't you talk to them and find out yourself the veracity of this post?

 

[kunjuppu]

Pann,

I thought i had finished with you. but if i don't respond, i am quite sure, the public will feel that i am avoiding you. nothing like that, except i have fear of repeating myself (which i end up doing so anyway).

i will not deny any of your comments. but you have either not replied to the subjects and actions that i suggested.

you know so much about johari window. have you ever wondered, why the other communities view us like that? why don't you tell me what you think, instead of always complaining...

if this anti brahmin feeling did not exist 100 or so years ago, what did our great, grand and parent's generation do to turn on the heat? i am very curious as to what you attribute the root causes to be?

till 1967 we did not care. now it is hurting us, atleast the poorer ones, still left in tamil nadu.

jealousy and envy? i agree there may be some of it, but is that all? you must read some of periyar's works to get an idea of how our society structure is viewed from a NB viewpoint. just ignore the diatribes, and understand the essence. periyar makes a lot of sense.

i also challenged thoughtful persons like you to step up and come up with suggestions as to how to break this impasse. the separatist dmk is now part of the union cabinet. but we, supposedly of chanakya lineage, do not know how to make peace? give me answers, that is more befitting your intelligence and intellect.

Pann,i was very disappointed in your previous post as it was not not befitting a man of your calibre. you can do better than that, to analyze in a detatched manner and suggestions for us to rejoin the community of tamils and break this alienation.

i think deep in our heart, most of us will touch upon atleast some aspects of the truth but are unwilling or unable to express it. maybe it is a fear of loss of face? or even deeper fears of losing identity? i don't know, but i sure would like to hear from folks like you, who are capable of thinking outside the box, but seemingly unwilling to do so.

all i get from you in pr msgs and posts, is more and more litanies of grievances. why don't you come up with ideas to break this chain and make the world a little better for the next generation of tamil brahmins? would that not be a great legacy, than continuing to be a courier of grievances?

i think, we tambrams have the most to lose. the process of mending the fences and rebuilding lost trusts must start from us. that can happen, only if we accept some responsibility for our own condition in tamil nadu. point blank denials is a non starter.

societies and groups have successfully shed the past and are universally accepted genuinely transformed. one example is western germany, where the society has accepted and sought amends for nazi cruelties. the u.s society has changed enough to have a non white president. compared to such enormities, our problem is minscule.

my most uncharitable reason why we would like to leave it status quo is: i think for all of us in this forum, none of us have been adversely impacted by restrictions in colleges or jobs. some inconveniences, but nothing unsurmountable. the presence of this alienation, is a good topic for us all to do group breast beating, which i think, in a perverse way we enjoy. much like the oppaaris at funerals. but the fate of the poor tambrams - i am sorry to say sir, all i see in this forum is crocodile tears. none of us really care about our poorer brethren. if we did, or if our own children were affected, we would have made amends years ago.

in tamil nadu of today in 2 generations, we have NB children competing head on with us for the top ranks. it is no longer taken that when you see a seetha or sridhar as state #1, it has to be a brahmin. maybe, you might want to think about it, in the context of our history.

i still have many relatives in tamil nadu. considering our humble origins from north malabar, tamil nadu has been kind to all of us. minister napoleon is a family friend of ours, and kanimozhi karunanidhi attended my neice's wedding. the younger generation's friends span across caste and creed, but all come from a similar economic status. money, apparently is a great equalizer.

atleast most of my family has made peace, though i did have one of my cousins heave a big sigh of relief, when the boy her daughter chose was a iyer. to her even iyengar was a no no. those diehards, i give up

 

[pannvalan]

As suggested by you I close my interaction in this thread I shall start a fresh thread giving out my own solutions some of which are workable while some are not

 

[kunjuppu]

As suggested by you I close my interaction in this thread I shall start a fresh thread giving out my own solutions some of which are workable while some are not

Pann,

why don't you try to analyze the causes before your solutions. the solutions should reference the causes. otherwise, i think, it is a cop out.

anybody can come with a list. it is tracing the root causes and attacking them one by one, and having the intellectual honesty to call a spade a spade, that separates boys from men.

btw i did not intend to suggest that you do not post replies to me. what i expect is you to break new grounds, and open up to the same potential which you do in your wonderful poems. high expectations from me, but i think you are capable of rising up to it.

thank you.

 

[pannvalan]

I do not want to provide further ammunition to others. Therefore I call quits.

 

[sangom]

...

personally, i do not consider anyone of our tribe, with diametrically opposite views of mine, as my enemy. it is after all a vasudeva kutumbam, and i know nara will challenge me, as to why my concept of vasudeva does not include the whole world.

my mind is small, and i am limited in my faculties. as such i have problems to even extending this concept of tribe at times, to many a folk here, who have come and made their presence known through stands on issues that i can not even fathom, let alone tolerate.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

The highlighted portions appear contradictory.

many in my generation took one way out - we emigrated. whether by choice or by forces beyond our control, our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins.
...

my children and those of us who emigrated, whether to the usa, australia, singapore or canada, have bred a new generation, who are proud of their new homeland. you will find tambram youths proudly doing National Service for the singapore state. you will find tambram youths serving the u.s. army in iraq and afghanistan. but in tamil nadu, you will find the bitter remnants, who will bicker around whether to admit a non brahmin to this forum.

what a legacy!

Who are the tambram youths proudly doing National Service for the singapore state and serving the u.s. army in iraq and afghanistan, if our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

The highlighted portions appear contradictory.

Who are the tambram youths proudly doing National Service for the singapore state and serving the u.s. army in iraq and afghanistan, if our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins.

dear sangom, this must be read my own children as identifying themselves are tamilbrahmin children. to them their hindu identity is more important and meaningful. they know their ancestry is tambram, albeit with a palghat flavour, but essentially they are canadian in outlook with a hindu religion.

this is the price that i paid, for making a decision, willingly and knowingly too, a long time ago. ie their lack of identity as an indian national. i could not then predict the future, and i think i have stated elsewhere that if india had this sense of hope in early 1970s, i would have stayed put.

i had never considered 'returning' to india, because canada is the country the children know, and while they have excellent relations with their cousins spread globally, their destiny, as of now, is intermingled with that of north america. who knows where they will move in the future. it is after increasingly mobility wise a smaller world.

it does not matter if they moved to india, for it would be their their lives, and they would be starting in india as an immigrant, facing all the challenges of a different culture and practices. one never knows in these days. but i thank God that they are not ABCD, for then it would have been a crime againt them.

re tambram children serving in singapore services, my own nephews. these are two families, a total of 4 boys, who are being brought up in singapore with the strong identity of brahmin identity even superseding the tamil part and their fathers would jive in well with the traditionalists here in their values. however being singapore born and raised, they have an obligation to do national service for singapore.

with singapore's, separate but equal practises in dealing with the different groups as chinese, malays and tamils, and its proximity to india, the essential attitudes of tambrams is one of transplantation of the physical self for material comforts. these families still rest their hearts in tamilnadu or palghat and ensure that their chldren marry tambrams only (i know only one case so far, but in the coming years i have a total of 6 nephews and neices, whose upbringing& home value system is much like that of any tambram children in tamil nadu.. and it remains to be seen as to how these play out their weddings).

re the u.s. armed forces, a dear friend of mine's son is serving in iraq. to be sure, i do not know how strong his tamil or brahmin identity is. the parents' ancestrage is as pucca as yours or mine.

personally, i do not consider anyone of our tribe, with diametrically opposite views of mine, as my enemy. it is after all a vasudeva kutumbam, and i know nara will challenge me, as to why my concept of vasudeva does not include the whole world.

my mind is small, and i am limited in my faculties. as such i have problems to even extending this concept of tribe at times, to many a folk here, who have come and made their presence known through stands on issues that i can not even fathom, let alone tolerate.

dear sangom,

i have a strong bond and feeling for my fellow tambrams even if it does not come out so definitevely in my posts. i have had the wildest quarrels with tambrams, and some of those, i consider my dearest friends. 'love of a person', to me, is distinct from a 'love of his or her ideas' - i learned this trait the hard way, but now i feel that it is among my few strengths. i can feel the animosity in many posts against me (real or imagined) for i take stands which are not what they like, but as a person, i have only affection for them. i am unable to damn a human for what he believes in the context of this forum, particularly when he or she is of my own extended flesh and blood.

the second italics, is exactly that..i am dealing with extreme rigidity here with folks, and sometimes i don't understand why or whither from their hardness comes. at times i have to remind myself that these too are tambrams, and who knows what their experiences in life brought them to this. to me, the key to getting on in life is flexibility.

i tend to look at life through my life lens. i presume others here do the same. when so many years and places separate us, is it not but natural that we differ? can we hold that difference to a point of acute dislike? i am telling myself NO.

my ideal is a palm tree swaying to the directions of the storms, and jerking back to vertical once the winds have blown over. the other alternate is akin to a banyan tree, a complete breakdown in the face of threatening storms.

hope this explains. this is the best i can do. short of having a personal one on one, i cannot do any better. my sincere apolgies for any shortcomings.

 

[sangom]

dear sangom, this must be read my own children as identifying themselves are tamilbrahmin children. to them their hindu identity is more important and meaningful. they know their ancestry is tambram, albeit with a palghat flavour, but essentially they are canadian in outlook with a hindu religion.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

If you see my post # 45 it will be seen that your statements are given as under:

many in my generation took one way out - we emigrated. whether by choice or by forces beyond our control, our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins.
...

my children and those of us who emigrated, whether to the usa, australia, singapore or canada, have bred a new generation, who are proud of their new homeland. you will find tambram youths proudly doing National Service for the singapore state. you will find tambram youths serving the u.s. army in iraq and afghanistan. but in tamil nadu, you will find the bitter remnants, who will bicker around whether to admit a non brahmin to this forum.

what a legacy!

While replying, the first portion where you say that "our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins." has been not reproduced. My doubt was, and still is, how people who no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins, are being credit of tamil brahmins? I think this is getting best of both the worlds, and not correct.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

If you see my post # 45 it will be seen that your statements are given as under:



While replying, the first portion where you say that "our children do no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins." has been not reproduced. My doubt was, and still is, how people who no longer identify themselves as tamil brahmins, are being credit of tamil brahmins? I think this is getting best of both the worlds, and not correct.

sorry sangom,

as stated in my post #46 that was the best i could communicate via the written medium.

re the blue italics, i had to manually do it, as cut and paste worked only for the second para.

as i am almost certain that we are not destined to meet this birth, maybe in a future birth we can discuss one on one my train of thought. till then, au revoir

 

[vs_ramki1950]

dear sir,
i am also in search of a bride for my son. we posted his profile in a popular matrimony site.and i too received replies from the parents of the eligible brides. what i understood from their thoughts and talk is , that the parents want the grooms from the same city,if possible he can live with them,leaving his parents alone. they want the boy to be under their watchful eyes, and they always influence the girl.
i have found that many girls who are suitable to my son are still unmarried and i dont know what their parents think.
i hope the parents of the brides will think positively and help their daughters getting married happily.

 

[sangom]

dear sir,
i am also in search of a bride for my son. we posted his profile in a popular matrimony site.and i too received replies from the parents of the eligible brides. what i understood from their thoughts and talk is , that the parents want the grooms from the same city,if possible he can live with them,leaving his parents alone. they want the boy to be under their watchful eyes, and they always influence the girl.
i have found that many girls who are suitable to my son are still unmarried and i dont know what their parents think.
i hope the parents of the brides will think positively and help their daughters getting married happily.

Shri Ramki,

Just last evening one Saiva Pillai and his wife, a family friend, came to our house to invite us for their daughter's marriage. The girl is 20 years old, studying. The alliance is with an equally well-to-do family. When I asked him what about education of the daughter, he said he and his wife had made it very clear to their daughter that after she attains 18 years, they will start looking for alliance, and if any proposal comes which satisfies the girl as well as the parents, marriage will be performed irrespective of her study continuing or not. The girl had agreed to this although some of her friends - including some brahmin girls - have been trying to influence her and make her resist marriage before completing her studies. In this case the groom's people are willing to continue her studies at their place.

He said if she completes her degree and starts earning, then she might become adamant and want to study more, and it would become difficult to make her agree to marriage.

Incidentally, he said that while brahmins were models for other communities in the olden days, now brahmins/ brahmin girls are going astray from "jaatik kattuppaadu" and, further, they want to spoil other communities as well. I had no words to defend brahmins.