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Inter-caste marriages - Practical difficulties, suggesetions, solutions.

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Respectable members,

Greetings. In the case of Inter-caste Marriages, quite a few persons are affected.

1. Bride's & groom's parents are affected to a certain degree.

2. Bride's & groom's near and dear are affected to a lesser degree.

3. Bride and the groom are affected to very large degree.

4. Society on the whole is affected - is it positive or is it negative?

5. The children born to the Inter-caste couple are affected.

If the forum feels, I have neglecgted anymore point, kindly high light such points, please.

Inter-caste marriage can be between any two different castes. not necessarily between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins. This is a thread to discuss the hardships faced by all the parties concerned and possible sloutions, please.

Kindly refrain from talking ill of any caste in this thread, please. I humbly request the learned members to analyse the situation emphathetically to find solutions, please. Practical solutions may be useful for many Inter-caste married couples.

I humbly request the forum to kindly contribute their thoughts, please.

Cheers!
 
raghy,

it all depends on where the couple lives.

if they live in the west, i do not think there is any issue. they seldom see the parents. the relatives are a non entity. they only move with friends who don't care about the caste of the couple.

in india, again if they live in the cities there is less bother, i think.

it all depends on the couple. if they are strong within themselves, the issues should be minimal. a support from even one of the parents would be a bonus.

i think, it would be better, if you list factual difficulties that could be faced by the ic couple.
 
Sri.Kunjuppu,

Greetings. Thanks for your inputs. I listed 5 different group of persons getting affected. Marriage is not just an union of the bride and the groom only. It is the union of two families; two clans; near and dear are never a non-entity. You have already mentioned about your relatives getting into IC unions; as one of the near and dear, you have already expressed the way you were affected in various posts in the past. How would the parents get affected? Not all the members have the same opinion... come to think of it, this is an extensive subject. It does not matter where the youngsters live; be it Triplicane or Timbaktoo... still the parents live in the same place.

Yes, I am intending to express the factual difficulties in various situations. more situations can be contributed by other members too.

scenario 1 - Brahmin boy married a non-brahmin girl. His parents require his support, live with them. The NB girl is very kind to the in-laws. The inevitable day arrives; thivasam for the grand-father. Analyse, please.

Scenario #2 - Brahmin girl married NB boy. He is a great guy. her parents are almost cool with him ('மாப்பிளை ரொம்ப நல்ல மாதிரி தெரியுமோ? என் பொண்ணை பூ போல பார்த்துக்கறான். ஜாதி மட்டும்தான் வேற..' When I heard that, I felt like laughing my head off! The same person was jumping up and down, going crazy and opposed that union vehemently. I was asked to talk to him; but, I didn't). Anyway, the scenario is, her brother is getting married... 'Sumangali prarthanai' is arranged. Where would she fit in.. analyse, please.

(a humble request to members, please. Kindly analyse the situations without talking ill of any caste or any persons. Who knows, this discussion may be printed and 'accidently left' for parents/near & dear/ groom & bride to read).

Cheers!
 
in case of inter caste marriage, atleast one side purity is getting diluted. the pure family is tagetted and lured. the sustained campain for inter caste marriage is a real theat. i do not think such marriges occur solely out of love but out of greed or desire to destroy. the percentage of success of such marriages are very less.
 
in case of inter caste marriage, atleast one side purity is getting diluted. the pure family is tagetted and lured. the sustained campain for inter caste marriage is a real theat. i do not think such marriges occur solely out of love but out of greed or desire to destroy. the percentage of success of such marriages are very less.

with this type of attitudes there is sure to be problems. the extended parties invovled will ensure to creat such.

raghy, for me, it is live and let live. i would encourage my children to find the best in their view. after all they have to live with their spouses.

i do not have strong feelings about sumangali prarthanai etc to exclude NB or white dils. that is my take. i will embrace them and request them to join if they wish. if they decline, i hope to respect that too.

if i treat my NVB married dil sils as decent human being, with on par treatment as my children (which is what they are now) i do not expect to have the type of problems that you are talkig about.

the same goes to thevasam, though since going to kasi i have stopped doing them. re thevasam for me, i hope not to put that burden on my children. i am thinking of asking the forum for such a solution in another thread soon.

i think i should pay for the bad deeds that i have done. thevasam is more, i think, a do good feel for the living relatives.

that is my take.

more later, depending on the replies we get.

ps.. living in australia, without your parents on both sides, did you have any issues in your own life? i would think it is only a matter of adjustment befween husband and wife.no?
 
in case of inter caste marriage, atleast one side purity is getting diluted. the pure family is tagetted and lured. the sustained campain for inter caste marriage is a real theat. i do not think such marriges occur solely out of love but out of greed or desire to destroy. the percentage of success of such marriages are very less.

Sri.Bala,

Greetings. Kindly look at the scenario with empathy, please. This thread is not about politics, not about talking ill of any caste; it is about practical solutions to handle the possible difficulties in a nice way. That's all. If it would make you happy, let us say the boy and the girl love each other very sincerely.

the percentage of success of such marriages are very less.

The aim of this thread is to increase the percentage of success. (I know of three IC marriages well. All the three have done really well).

Cheers!
 
Respectable members,

Greetings. In the case of Inter-caste Marriages, quite a few persons are affected.

1. Bride's & groom's parents are affected to a certain degree.

2. Bride's & groom's near and dear are affected to a lesser degree.

3. Bride and the groom are affected to very large degree.

4. Society on the whole is affected - is it positive or is it negative?

5. The children born to the Inter-caste couple are affected.

If the forum feels, I have neglecgted anymore point, kindly high light such points, please.

Inter-caste marriage can be between any two different castes. not necessarily between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins. This is a thread to discuss the hardships faced by all the parties concerned and possible sloutions, please.

Kindly refrain from talking ill of any caste in this thread, please. I humbly request the learned members to analyse the situation emphathetically to find solutions, please. Practical solutions may be useful for many Inter-caste married couples.

I humbly request the forum to kindly contribute their thoughts, please.

Cheers!

Raghy,

More than "society as a whole" the two concerned castes and the caste-based associations seem to be affected.
 
Scenario #2 - Brahmin girl married NB boy. He is a great guy. her parents are almost cool with him ('மாப்பிளை ரொம்ப நல்ல மாதிரி தெரியுமோ? என் பொண்ணை பூ போல பார்த்துக்கறான். ஜாதி மட்டும்தான் வேற..' When I heard that, I felt like laughing my head off! The same person was jumping up and down, going crazy and opposed that union vehemently. I was asked to talk to him; but, I didn't). Anyway, the scenario is, her brother is getting married... 'Sumangali prarthanai' is arranged. Where would she fit in.. analyse, please.

(a humble request to members, please. Kindly analyse the situations without talking ill of any caste or any persons. Who knows, this discussion may be printed and 'accidently left' for parents/near & dear/ groom & bride to read).

Cheers!

Raghy,

I can cite one case; daughter of one of my close daayaatis, he is my elder cousin by generation count though 4th. or even 5th. removed may be. still பத்துநாள் தாயாதி. One of his three daughters has married a non-brahmin boy. She is allowed to participate in all functions-good and bad (death-related) including sumangali prarthanai.

One more distant relative. B girl married NB boy. her daughter was married last year. I forget whether the groom was B or NB, my poor memory, but it was clear in the invitation. But this mother still partakes in all functions in her house including sraaddhams.
 
ps.. living in australia, without your parents on both sides, did you have any issues in your own life? i would think it is only a matter of adjustment befween husband and wife.no?

My mother is still alive and blessing us every now and again. Even yesterday my wife was all smiles after reading the well wishes from her MIL. I requested my (younger) brother to conduct father's thevasam; He happily agreed. ( I just organise an அன்ன தானம் in his memory. I believe that). (My mother would not mind NB DIL conducting thevasam if it comes to that, although it is not the case. The reason I think so is, she attends Ramar temple regularly, priest is NB. Thulasi Theertham, sadaari all the works. punch line is... she appointed him as the priest! That is a small temple in the village, kind of our family looks after the bulk of the expenses..).

sri.Kunjuppu, thanks for your input.

Cheers!
 
Raghy,

More than "society as a whole" the two concerned castes and the caste-based associations seem to be affected.

True, sir. Certainly caste based association gets affected. If such effects are positive, then the fabric of the society improves too.

Cheers!
 
living in australia, without your parents on both sides, did you have any issues in your own life? i would think it is only a matter of adjustment befween husband and wife.no?

Sorry, I didn't get the question properly. As a couple, we had quite a few issues caused by the parents, since they could not adjust to our union (same Iyengar, same vada Kalai, different Gothram... still they fought!). It took more than 15 years for us to vaguely understand each other. After 30 years, still we don't each other completely.

In most IC marriages, one of the party involved, either the boy or the girl bend backwards to accomadate the other party. In general, I see NB boys and his family really adjust to accomadate the Brahmin girl. I have seen that in my own village. I was under the impression, NB girls were readily accepted in Brahmin homes ( I know, my grand mother was ready. She actually said, I could go for a NB girl if I so desired; she was ready to accept her. accepting means, accepting in the kitchen to cook for thevasam).

Cheers!
 
The situation would depend on the strata of the society to which the couple belong. In upper middle class families with no connection to the village there are very few problems. In this generation most of the boys in my family are married to Non-Brahmin girls. Some of them are arranged marriages. The girls take part in Thevasam and Sumangali Prarthanai. Almost all the girls have become vegetarian. That is they cook only vegetarian food. Again that is when they cook at all. Some of the children are learning Carnatic music, Bharata Natyam. They do speak in Tamil when they take a break from speaking in English.

However there is a section of the extended family who do not like it. They are called by our children as country folk.

It was not so easy for the earlier generation. They had a tough time getting their daughters married to Brahmins. It was easier for the sons. Some of them got married into the other community.

In my generation it is much easier.
 
thanks raghy.

i was thinking more along the lines of 'non issue' had you yourspouse be of different caste. two people in love can adjust to anything if left alone.

it is the external factors that screw up the situation. relatives living afar can still pull powerful strings to disturb a marriage, no matter how much jadhaga porutham and everything else in its favour.

i still cannot understand the concept of power play between the inlaws and one party trying to dupe the others.

also prevalent in white societies. sad to say.
 
I thought Inter-caste marriages are considered as bit of an issue for many Hindus. Hope, there would be more inputs from the members.

Scenarion #3 -Difficulty faced by the parents due to social 'isolation'. in some instances, parents loose their respect in the social gatherings; they are seen as 'powerless' in 'controlling' their son/daughter. Some parents may not like to compromise their standing in the society; they slowly reduce their inter actions with the society resulting in 'social isolation'. How can such parents be helped, please?
 
The problem is with individuals. Some people go around telling every tom, dick and harry about their son/daughter getting married to a non-Brahmin. May be they expect some sympathy. Or they feel so grieved that they have to share the grief with some one including household servants. Then they start imagining that the society is boycotting them and go into a shell.

This is similar to the people who have no children or whose son/daughter has been divorced going into a shell and then blaming the society. Happens once too often.

But people who accept the marriages as part of the changing times have very few problems. People who do not have children adapt them without telling anyone except very close relations.

You can not change the society, but you should know how to deal with the society.

If one has a guilty consciousness because of their son/daughter's marriage, they should get rid of it.

Maa Amrithanandhamayi once said "Parents have a limited role in the future of their children. You can change something here and there. But then their future will depend on their Karma. There is no point in blaming oneself for all the happenings in the lives of children." Not exact words. But the essence.

If parents realize this, the problems would be reduced to a considerable extent.
 
Sri.Nachinarkiniyan Sir,

Greetings. Thanks for your inputs. They are very practical indeed.

Trouble for the parents start when they start 'promising' their son's/daughter's hand in marriage to their relatives/friends. Only such parents are hit the most, because, they feel their children had not upheld their wishes. Unfortunately, they fail to realise, they are attempting to make a decision about an other adult's life.

An other group of parents who feel hurt are the ones who have superiority complex about their caste. Somehow, they feel inferior due to their children's choices and drive themselves to 'social isolation'.

Cheers!
 
Respectable members,

Greetings. In the case of Inter-caste Marriages, quite a few persons are affected.

1. Bride's & groom's parents are affected to a certain degree.

2. Bride's & groom's near and dear are affected to a lesser degree.

3. Bride and the groom are affected to very large degree.

4. Society on the whole is affected - is it positive or is it negative?

5. The children born to the Inter-caste couple are affected.

If the forum feels, I have neglecgted anymore point, kindly high light such points, please.

Inter-caste marriage can be between any two different castes. not necessarily between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins. This is a thread to discuss the hardships faced by all the parties concerned and possible sloutions, please.

Kindly refrain from talking ill of any caste in this thread, please. I humbly request the learned members to analyse the situation emphathetically to find solutions, please. Practical solutions may be useful for many Inter-caste married couples.

I humbly request the forum to kindly contribute their thoughts, please.

Cheers!
I would like to add one more clause.
The brother and sister of the bride and groom find it very difficult to find a spouse if they search in their own caste.
 
I would like to add one more clause.
The brother and sister of the bride and groom find it very difficult to find a spouse if they search in their own caste.

still happens eh!! our community is sure narrow minded.

happened in my family. but that was 20 years ago. still neanderthal we, in some aspects. :(
 
It all depends first whether the couple is happy after marriage whether it is same caste/intercase love or arranged marriage. Though the boy and girl may be good in nature their behaviour starts changing depending upon the events that happen in their lives. Some of the important events

1. How mother-in-law treats daughter-in-law and vice-versa
2. Whether the boy is able to balance between his mother and wife or he starts supporting one of them exclusively
3. Whether the couple gets child or not
4. If the child is born whether it is normal or handicapped (instances of handicapped children are on the increase these days)
5. Any death which is happening in the boys/girls family after marriage
6. Taking care of old age parents

Marriages will be mostly sucessful if they have good children in time, good understanding healthy parents etc., Marriages will start failing only if any of the events listed above happens. Then it really test the maturity of the boy and girl and whatever I have seen in life 90% of the above cases marraige result in failure. Though the couple may live together for life they may not have any meaningful relationship.

Regarding Srartham, Sumgali prarthani it all depends upon ones perception. In most of the cases the relatives and society dont accept intercaste marriages and will not allow the boy or girl to participate in the function.

As parents in case our son does intercase marriage we should accept with grace. Depending upon our own perception we can allow them to participate in Srartham/Sumgali prarthanai or not. We should also build up good savings. We should never expect our son or daughter in law to take of our us in old age. We should as far as possible try to be healthy. In case we face real problem then we should join a good old age home.
 
I would like to add one more clause.
The brother and sister of the bride and groom find it very difficult to find a spouse if they search in their own caste.

I agree this handicap was there even a few years back. But with tabra boys & girls (particularly) going in for inter-caste or even inter-religious marriages, today the sibling having such a marriage is not considered a black mark by boys' side, especially because girls are in short supply to some extent even now, particularly for the சோப்ளாங்கி boys brought up with immense pride by tabra mothers under their overpowering aura. ;)
 
sangom, krish,

this made me count the number of ic marriages in my family. ofcourse, ic marriages to my mother meant nair or theeyyan. somehow even though we lived in chennai, the concept of marriage to mudaliar, pillai or gounder or dalit did not enter into our radar.

what i found surprising, most of the ic marriages are with north indians. ofcourse some of them are brahmins, but many other castes as well. maybe because a major portion of my family moved on from kerala, beyond madras to the north. so the next generation, had more chance of meeting a northie and southie, i guess.

while admonishing our daughters against ic marriages, i think parents of hitherto generations did not mentions other religions, perhaps out of acchham? we have more girls married to christians (malayali as well as tamil) than to other caste. one married a muslim.

the ones married to christians converted, and surprisingly, the muslim married one, is raising her children in the hindu brahmin way of life. i wonder how many tambrams would agree to marry their children to this young lady's children? time alone will tell, but i think, if not by choice, by circumstances, we are moving as a community, in the right direction. atleast what i consider 'right direction' :)

today, marriage to nair or nambiar, does not even raise an eyebrow. but the ceremonies, boy or girl, is done tambram style. personally i like the nair wedding, as it is so simple and done in 15 minutes :).

krish, for the reasons that you mentioned, are the ones our girls, within or inter caste, prefer to live abroad. no societal hassles.

also, you brought up a very good point re handicapped children.

those marriages are stressful irrespective of the caste of the parents. re the prevalence of more of them, i think we are begining to get awareness of it. in the olden days of my childhood, such children were hidden away and never displayed publicly beyond immediate brothers or sisters. atleast in my family.

the very worst despicable instance, was to one of my friends, who married a north indian brahmin girl, had an handicapped daughter, and his family intoto, went on to say the girl was a 'punishment' to him for marrying outside the community. that was 25 years ago. a few months ago, my friend's neice married a mudaliar boy, and i cannot even scratch the agony of his feelings. our narrow mindedness makes us very cruel. deliberately.
 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/fashion/weddings/17vows.html?_r=1&ref=weddings

we tend to think of ic marriages only within the context of hindus and that too within india.

but the world is a large place, and marriage across cultures and traditions do happen all over. every week the sunday issue of new york times has a weddings & celebration section which i peruse with great interest.

today, the above marriage caught my attention. not for the story line, but the way the state operates the marriage department. :) also the bride wore a sari, though not necessarily with flattery or in flattery.
 
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still happens eh!! our community is sure narrow minded.

happened in my family. but that was 20 years ago. still neanderthal we, in some aspects. :(
I am not clear about what do you mean by Broad minded, Normal minded and narrow minded. I reserve my comments on hearing from you.
This forum is for promotiion of the Tamil brahmin community and not for promoting Inter caste marriage.
I invite your kind reference to my thread "Ammavasai Tharpanam" Where Mr CLN has attached an invitation inviting us for the marriage of his son with a Maharashtra Brahmin girl.He would have also mentioned that his wife had not accepted the inter-caste marriage and that she did not attend her sons marriage. According to me both of them are right in their own way.
I request you to offer your opinion without hurting the feelings of either MR CLN or Mrs CLN.
India is not a casteless society or a religionless society unlike other countries.
Even today we never call us as Indians first. We identify as Brahmins than Tamilians and than as Indians.
 
I am not clear about what do you mean by Broad minded, Normal minded and narrow minded. I reserve my comments on hearing from you.
This forum is for promotiion of the Tamil brahmin community and not for promoting Inter caste marriage.
I invite your kind reference to my thread "Ammavasai Tharpanam" Where Mr CLN has attached an invitation inviting us for the marriage of his son with a Maharashtra Brahmin girl.He would have also mentioned that his wife had not accepted the inter-caste marriage and that she did not attend her sons marriage. According to me both of them are right in their own way.
I request you to offer your opinion without hurting the feelings of either MR CLN or Mrs CLN.
India is not a casteless society or a religionless society unlike other countries.
Even today we never call us as Indians first. We identify as Brahmins than Tamilians and than as Indians.

dear suresh,

you have brought out two distinct issues, as i understand it. let me give it a try, and if not satisfying to you, maybe i will attempt again. my 'satisfaction' criteria, is not agreeing to you per se per values, but per se, re perspectives.

first: my terming 'narrow minded' in my post #18. to me, for a sister or brother, to be shunted or 'punished' by community values, just because one of the older siblings opted to marry out of caste, is narrow minded.

one can ask the older sibling to stay put regarding their preferences, but what happened in our case, is that it created more problems. the nagging query as to why the younger one 'is in the market' when there is an older one, and the accompanying innuendos. so if the older one wants to marry out of caste, that should be a different issue.

and not be confused with the marital aspiration or hunting of a spouse for the younger ones. if the other side finds this a 'blot', or worse still, the siblings' parents regard this as a blot on themselves, which they were wont to do in the previous generation, i would consider it in the world of today, 'narrow mindedness'. that is my personal opinion.

please note i have neither promoted nor disparaged ic marriages. i would request you to refrain from 'reading into' my post and coming to conclusions, which are just not implied. thank you for asking clarifications.

second: re mrs & mr CLN, it is their business. CLN has very kindly offered to share his experience and photos with us. i have expressed very clearly there in those posts, my views. i think, is best we do not intrude further into that situation.

i believe that in every situation, we have views; whether we feel comfortable or justified in expressing our views, depends on the situation and our own predicament.

i think you may have termed me liberal in my views. but would you be surprised if my children feel that i am 'not liberal enough'? children always push their parents, to just a wee bit more than what the 'lakshman rekha' that we draw. which is why i hope my posts come out empathetic somewhat to sitautions, and not to folks.

steadfast sticking to principle and values, without taking into considerations the feelings and situations, only makes or breaks us. i would rather be like the palm tree, sway when the storm blows, and even if slanted, keep on living and thriving. don't want to be the neem tree that breaks.

there is another one guarantee in life. there will be storms. how we react and come out of it, depends on us. not our 'principles or values'. i think it has something more to do with our hearts.

thank you.
 
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I am not clear about what do you mean by Broad minded, Normal minded and narrow minded. I reserve my comments on hearing from you.
This forum is for promotiion of the Tamil brahmin community and not for promoting Inter caste marriage.
I invite your kind reference to my thread "Ammavasai Tharpanam" Where Mr CLN has attached an invitation inviting us for the marriage of his son with a Maharashtra Brahmin girl.He would have also mentioned that his wife had not accepted the inter-caste marriage and that she did not attend her sons marriage. According to me both of them are right in their own way.
I request you to offer your opinion without hurting the feelings of either MR CLN or Mrs CLN.
India is not a casteless society or a religionless society unlike other countries.
Even today we never call us as Indians first. We identify as Brahmins than Tamilians and than as Indians.

Shri Suresh Kumar,

I also held the view that we should not seem to be unnecessarily encouraging ICM in this forum. Kunjuppu, Nara, Happy Hindu and myself had some very heated exchanges on this topic just last year in this very same forum. But since then I find the number of ICMs/IRMs (inter-religious marriages) is only increasing though our generation parents still seem to have not realised that the ground is slowly but surely slipping below their feet.

Of course there are some (many?) tabra boys above 30 years of age whom Kunjuppu once termed "choplangis" to which also I had taken objection then. But today I feel that the epithet is not without substance because these boys toe their mother's (parent's) line, want only tabra girls, qualified and reasonably well-employed, good-looking and not from a very poor family (because they want the marriage to be done well, do not want to spend on it more than what is compulsory, etc.) — in short "muTavan kombuttEnukku ASaippaTaRa mAtiri". And they have not yet realized that a tabra girl of the specifications they put would have got married before she crosses 27, 28 or 29 at the most. When we suggest relaxing the conditions and consider nair girls etc., (high caste hindus) even the boys say "namma culture-kku SarippeTTu varaatu". I told one young man that at this rate he should better give up the idea of getting married and found profound disappointment in his face; he tried the usual face-saver "ArAvatu orutti poRantiruppalE" to which I said suppose nobody has been born so far? But he did not abuse me for that remark but there was no rethinking; still hunting. These young men thus waste their precious youth and may be they will get married by 35 or 40, let us hope.

What I am trying to say is, tabra boys at the second and third level down from the top class, should try to consider ICM by the time the boy nears 30, otherwise it is foolish to go on waiting and hoping in vain, under the present circumstances.

Very recently there was a tabra girl-nair boy marriage. Boy in US, very well-to-do family; girl's father an active man in tabra association. He was very shrewd. As soon as he came to know of the love affair he performed a top class Nischayataamboolam - a mini marriage itself - and I suspect that was to ensure that the "varan" does not slip away. Now the marriage last month was in one of the costliest halls (1.5 lakhs per day rent) and the crowd was more than 1500 people. The marriage was pure Nair style, but as per vendutal, the boy's side performed the marriage early morning in a certain temple in Nair style and the hall was more for a secular sort of marriage. All the dignitaries of tabra association, the priests of a temple managed by the association and even the vadhyar of the girl's house attended the marriage, took part in the feast. The couple, both in IT, have flown to US since.

That is the way the community seems to move on.
 
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