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Inter Caste Marriages
- Thread starter silverfox
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H
hariharan1972
Guest
Good question sir. Frankly i don't have an answer. I was only articulating the search criteria which my father is employing.
OP
OP
I like your honesty!
Dear Hari:
Thank you for your response; I like your honesty very much. By the way, I hope I did not offend you by asking that question. I understand where you are coming from.
Dear Hari:
Thank you for your response; I like your honesty very much. By the way, I hope I did not offend you by asking that question. I understand where you are coming from.
Any and all
I think if a Telugu Brahmana wants to marry another Telugu Brahmana, or an Iyer wants to marry another Iyer etc there is absolutely no issue. Also, a US-born Iyer may want to marry another US-born Iyer, or an Iyengar born in North India may want to marry another Iyengar born in NI. I think that is actually quite welcome and a great expression of the freedom to marry whomever one wants under whatever criteria. We have to maintain unity in diversity, and also ask other Indians to do the same. Our private lives should never be negotiable or require any kind of explanation.
I think if a Telugu Brahmana wants to marry another Telugu Brahmana, or an Iyer wants to marry another Iyer etc there is absolutely no issue. Also, a US-born Iyer may want to marry another US-born Iyer, or an Iyengar born in North India may want to marry another Iyengar born in NI. I think that is actually quite welcome and a great expression of the freedom to marry whomever one wants under whatever criteria. We have to maintain unity in diversity, and also ask other Indians to do the same. Our private lives should never be negotiable or require any kind of explanation.
OP
OP
Dear mrifan:
You are absolutely and without question right. However, my question emanated from my desire (foolish, maybe!) to see that we, Brahmins, as a community could inter-marry among different sects. Isn't this a better deal than our women marrying the 'marans' or 'chidambarams'? Of course, these are personal choices of people and it is their business.
Once again, my profound apologies if I had crossed the line. Hari was gracious enough to let me go!
You are absolutely and without question right. However, my question emanated from my desire (foolish, maybe!) to see that we, Brahmins, as a community could inter-marry among different sects. Isn't this a better deal than our women marrying the 'marans' or 'chidambarams'? Of course, these are personal choices of people and it is their business.
Once again, my profound apologies if I had crossed the line. Hari was gracious enough to let me go!
H
hariharan1972
Guest
I see a point bothways
Mrifan sir & Silver fox,
I see a point in what both of you are saying ! (I am an accountant you see)
I agree with Mrifan that the pvt domains of individuals should be left as such & their choices should be respected.
Having said that, i agree with Silver fox that as a community the sooner we narrow such "gaps" of sect, the better. Don't we all know the story of one twig vs a bunch ?
I feel that if we can overcome these "technical snags" of different sects coming together we can be more assertive of our rights. Ofcourse, we cannot force the view and would have to wait for the next generation to take this forward.
Coming to my own case, i admit, i cannot see this happening in my family as my family's sensibilities are not mature enough. That is the reason why i didn't have an answer when Silverfox raised the question. I cannot defend the indefensible.
Silverfox sir - all my "feathers" are intact & you haven't ruffled it a bit.
Mrifan sir & Silver fox,
I see a point in what both of you are saying ! (I am an accountant you see)
I agree with Mrifan that the pvt domains of individuals should be left as such & their choices should be respected.
Having said that, i agree with Silver fox that as a community the sooner we narrow such "gaps" of sect, the better. Don't we all know the story of one twig vs a bunch ?
I feel that if we can overcome these "technical snags" of different sects coming together we can be more assertive of our rights. Ofcourse, we cannot force the view and would have to wait for the next generation to take this forward.
Coming to my own case, i admit, i cannot see this happening in my family as my family's sensibilities are not mature enough. That is the reason why i didn't have an answer when Silverfox raised the question. I cannot defend the indefensible.
Silverfox sir - all my "feathers" are intact & you haven't ruffled it a bit.
Method of induction
I think the issue here is as Brahmanas or Indians of any caste, we should be united in treating everybody in public equally. If we see injustice, as Brahmanas or Indians, we need to band together and fight against it. However, when it comes to someone else's private life, nothing is indefensible (within legal and moral limits of course). My issue with the Marans and Chidambaram's is not that they are marrying Brahmana women, but that they support the discrimination against Brahmanas in public life.
The qualities one may look for in a wife or in-law are very different than the qualities one may look for in a colleague, or a boss etc. Iyers and Iyengars have their own ways of worship and philosophy, within Iyers there are different Vedic branches etc, different languages have their own special nuances of interest, but the great thing is that as Brahmanas and Hindus this tremendous freedom to believe whatever one wants has been present for so long that it is much more advanced compared to other religions. If there was no diversity, the world would be a very boring place. Forcing people of different beliefs and languages to marry each other would lead to the loss of diversity, which would be a very sad occurrence.
In the US, Quakers marry Quakers, Baptists marry Baptists, Evangelists marry Evangelists, but they all belong to the fold of Christianity. And almost every one of them is very proud of being an American. Their private life is completely non-negotiable, but in public they have formulated laws to treat everyone equally.
I think the issue here is as Brahmanas or Indians of any caste, we should be united in treating everybody in public equally. If we see injustice, as Brahmanas or Indians, we need to band together and fight against it. However, when it comes to someone else's private life, nothing is indefensible (within legal and moral limits of course). My issue with the Marans and Chidambaram's is not that they are marrying Brahmana women, but that they support the discrimination against Brahmanas in public life.
The qualities one may look for in a wife or in-law are very different than the qualities one may look for in a colleague, or a boss etc. Iyers and Iyengars have their own ways of worship and philosophy, within Iyers there are different Vedic branches etc, different languages have their own special nuances of interest, but the great thing is that as Brahmanas and Hindus this tremendous freedom to believe whatever one wants has been present for so long that it is much more advanced compared to other religions. If there was no diversity, the world would be a very boring place. Forcing people of different beliefs and languages to marry each other would lead to the loss of diversity, which would be a very sad occurrence.
In the US, Quakers marry Quakers, Baptists marry Baptists, Evangelists marry Evangelists, but they all belong to the fold of Christianity. And almost every one of them is very proud of being an American. Their private life is completely non-negotiable, but in public they have formulated laws to treat everyone equally.
Forest for the trees
How about, let each twig be a different shape, color, and mate with other twigs of same shape color etc, but when even a single twig is under attack, all twigs unite to preserve the freedom of that twig to be unique and unbroken? Brahmanas, and Indians in general should, in my opinion, learn to pursue their own diverse interests and beliefs, regardless of what they may be, but should unite against social injustices. In fact, I am quite sure many Brahmanas feel bad when Dalits are killed by other castes because they are also Hindus. If we could all band together as Hindus, and continue to follow our own traditions in our private lives, then all these caste problems in India would automatically disappear as no one will feel threatened.
How about, let each twig be a different shape, color, and mate with other twigs of same shape color etc, but when even a single twig is under attack, all twigs unite to preserve the freedom of that twig to be unique and unbroken? Brahmanas, and Indians in general should, in my opinion, learn to pursue their own diverse interests and beliefs, regardless of what they may be, but should unite against social injustices. In fact, I am quite sure many Brahmanas feel bad when Dalits are killed by other castes because they are also Hindus. If we could all band together as Hindus, and continue to follow our own traditions in our private lives, then all these caste problems in India would automatically disappear as no one will feel threatened.
H
hariharan1972
Guest
Wonderful !!!!! I don't think anyone has said this so articulately. Hats off to you sir !
I wish such a day isn't too far !!!!!
about justice
Actually I dont know whether this thread is the right one to post my views on inter-caste marriage but since it is already done ,I think I can write here.
The main point here is if the play ground is level then I can consider the inter-caste marriage as a personal choice. But not when these marans and chidambarams deprive brahmin men's livelihood and then marry their women. This is crooked.
And let me give a story here.
There is a brahmin girl and she has brothers and sister and parents. Some thief barges in her house and takes away their legally earned money.The brahmin family consequently becomes poor. Then the thief buys their house and drives them away and builds a big house. Now how will it be if the woman who knows he is the thief who ruined their family and still "falls in love" with this thief and marries and settles in his house while her parents , brothers and sister are in penury?
This is exactly is the story with mrs.maran and mrs.srinidhi.
Now if the thief was not a thief and he earned his money by hardwork, I will not oppose it.
I will feel that it is a loss of 1 person and future generation from the community that nurtures spiritual knowledge. But I will not condemn it.
On the other hand if the person is a thief, then I will have to call it as INJUSTICE.
Stealing someone else's livelihood by abusing reservation policy is no less than a robbery.
I wonder if the women who marry this way ever think about this holistically and not just as a personal choice but with justice in mind.?
If justice is not in their mind then they can very well marry any thief or murderer, isn't it ?
Actually I dont know whether this thread is the right one to post my views on inter-caste marriage but since it is already done ,I think I can write here.
The main point here is if the play ground is level then I can consider the inter-caste marriage as a personal choice. But not when these marans and chidambarams deprive brahmin men's livelihood and then marry their women. This is crooked.
And let me give a story here.
There is a brahmin girl and she has brothers and sister and parents. Some thief barges in her house and takes away their legally earned money.The brahmin family consequently becomes poor. Then the thief buys their house and drives them away and builds a big house. Now how will it be if the woman who knows he is the thief who ruined their family and still "falls in love" with this thief and marries and settles in his house while her parents , brothers and sister are in penury?
This is exactly is the story with mrs.maran and mrs.srinidhi.
Now if the thief was not a thief and he earned his money by hardwork, I will not oppose it.
I will feel that it is a loss of 1 person and future generation from the community that nurtures spiritual knowledge. But I will not condemn it.
On the other hand if the person is a thief, then I will have to call it as INJUSTICE.
Stealing someone else's livelihood by abusing reservation policy is no less than a robbery.
I wonder if the women who marry this way ever think about this holistically and not just as a personal choice but with justice in mind.?
If justice is not in their mind then they can very well marry any thief or murderer, isn't it ?
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Aha!
Kashyap,
After reading this post of yours I begin to see why this issue gets you all stirred up. Interesting perspective! I never thought of it that way.
The early sixties saw the first inter-community/inter-caste marriages in my extended family. I could tell that my father despite his politeness and restraint - was deeply distressed by these events. His contention was that the ocean is drained drop by drop. He is very old school: a person sacrifices for the family, a family is sacrificed for the village, a village for the country and so on. I guess he was trying to say that the macrocosm is composed of the microcosm - that idea so eloquently expressed in the Purusha Suktam.
Elsewhere I wrote that "every choice is a small political act" - and I guess I was saying the inverse: that the macrocosm informs the microcosm - that personal choices are a consequence of the larger socio-economic pressures.
Your point that these personal choices constitute a "political statement" is well taken.
Recently the NYT had an article about the Zoroastrians - of how that small community had become a victim of its own mobility and adaptability.
Perhaps therein lies a lesson for us ...
Kashyap,
After reading this post of yours I begin to see why this issue gets you all stirred up. Interesting perspective! I never thought of it that way.
The early sixties saw the first inter-community/inter-caste marriages in my extended family. I could tell that my father despite his politeness and restraint - was deeply distressed by these events. His contention was that the ocean is drained drop by drop. He is very old school: a person sacrifices for the family, a family is sacrificed for the village, a village for the country and so on. I guess he was trying to say that the macrocosm is composed of the microcosm - that idea so eloquently expressed in the Purusha Suktam.
Elsewhere I wrote that "every choice is a small political act" - and I guess I was saying the inverse: that the macrocosm informs the microcosm - that personal choices are a consequence of the larger socio-economic pressures.
Your point that these personal choices constitute a "political statement" is well taken.
Recently the NYT had an article about the Zoroastrians - of how that small community had become a victim of its own mobility and adaptability.
Perhaps therein lies a lesson for us ...
more understanding
Thanks mami for being so understanding.
Of course I used the story to bring out the perspective in a better way. At the same time I do understand this story cannot be applied to all such marriages.
All I am saying is this—I understand that this is a personal choice. I also know that good /bad people exist in any community. Marriage decision is made after considering many factors such as character, looks, status, wavelength match in thoughts etc. But it will be good that our folks (men and women) first give a sincere try to search within the community ( can be across the languages and regions ) to find a match for their needs. If even after a sincere try for a good amount of time, if it did not work, then they can try outside. Have a reaalistic time frame folks. But be aware and be informed of what it takes to run an inter-caste marriage before deciding. Talk to other folks and get a good opinion and perspective.
This is needed. The distant cousin sister of mine who married out-of-caste, is having a real tough time . She is being forced to not only cook meat but also forced to eat it. She is now crying and rpeorting it to her parents. But they cannot do much.
Similarly my wife's aunt did similar thng years back and she spent many months and days in tears becuase her husband promised not to take non-veg at home and later went back on that.
So I really am not sure whehter these people make well-informed decisions.
All of us must also be aware of our duty in safe guarding the spiritual knowledge, if not actually practicing all the rituals every day. Our community has time and agian thrown up great saints such as ramana maharishi, seshadri swamigal , kanchi periyava etc. I used to wonder why the percentage of birth of such saints is more in our community when all people are to be considered equal. But then I think it is because they find that our lifestyle is conducive for them to carry out their mission for the world and so they take birth in these families. So we need to have this in mind too. That we are doing more than just a marriage.. We need to have the good of the society in mind too and be conducive for good things to happen to the world. I( Maybe this is too deep stufff.. Can't help saying it here
)
I think from the side of men, I would suggest the following approach:
I feel it is our duty to not ask for dowries, not look at the status of the family and their money and be more understanding towards women and not take them for granted.
(I leave it to the women in the forum to suggest the approach for women.).
These habits should be cultivated in the future generation of boys and girls.
PS:
I think I have said whatever I wanted to tell on this topic. Hence wont be posting on this anymore
Need a break and also I am travelling to Europe and wont be posting as frequently (maybe none) for a number of days. Catch u folks later.
Thanks mami for being so understanding.
Of course I used the story to bring out the perspective in a better way. At the same time I do understand this story cannot be applied to all such marriages.
All I am saying is this—I understand that this is a personal choice. I also know that good /bad people exist in any community. Marriage decision is made after considering many factors such as character, looks, status, wavelength match in thoughts etc. But it will be good that our folks (men and women) first give a sincere try to search within the community ( can be across the languages and regions ) to find a match for their needs. If even after a sincere try for a good amount of time, if it did not work, then they can try outside. Have a reaalistic time frame folks. But be aware and be informed of what it takes to run an inter-caste marriage before deciding. Talk to other folks and get a good opinion and perspective.
This is needed. The distant cousin sister of mine who married out-of-caste, is having a real tough time . She is being forced to not only cook meat but also forced to eat it. She is now crying and rpeorting it to her parents. But they cannot do much.
Similarly my wife's aunt did similar thng years back and she spent many months and days in tears becuase her husband promised not to take non-veg at home and later went back on that.
So I really am not sure whehter these people make well-informed decisions.
All of us must also be aware of our duty in safe guarding the spiritual knowledge, if not actually practicing all the rituals every day. Our community has time and agian thrown up great saints such as ramana maharishi, seshadri swamigal , kanchi periyava etc. I used to wonder why the percentage of birth of such saints is more in our community when all people are to be considered equal. But then I think it is because they find that our lifestyle is conducive for them to carry out their mission for the world and so they take birth in these families. So we need to have this in mind too. That we are doing more than just a marriage.. We need to have the good of the society in mind too and be conducive for good things to happen to the world. I( Maybe this is too deep stufff.. Can't help saying it here
)I think from the side of men, I would suggest the following approach:
I feel it is our duty to not ask for dowries, not look at the status of the family and their money and be more understanding towards women and not take them for granted.
(I leave it to the women in the forum to suggest the approach for women.).
These habits should be cultivated in the future generation of boys and girls.
PS:
I think I have said whatever I wanted to tell on this topic. Hence wont be posting on this anymore
Need a break and also I am travelling to Europe and wont be posting as frequently (maybe none) for a number of days. Catch u folks later.
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H
hariharan1972
Guest
Confused identity
I am too young to be married but let me thrown in my 2 cents.
In an ICM or IRM, a perspective often missed is the plight of the children - torn between 2 identities & unable to reconcile the differences between the two.
I am too young to be married but let me thrown in my 2 cents.
In an ICM or IRM, a perspective often missed is the plight of the children - torn between 2 identities & unable to reconcile the differences between the two.
OP
OP
Dear friends:
This is not the proper thread to have our discussions about inter-caste, inter-religion marriages, et al.
My apologies to Hari in asking a dumb question, which, I am afraid, started all this discussion. Not that the discussion is bad but it shouldn't be in "Matrimonial". Maybe someone could start a new thread!
This is not the proper thread to have our discussions about inter-caste, inter-religion marriages, et al.
My apologies to Hari in asking a dumb question, which, I am afraid, started all this discussion. Not that the discussion is bad but it shouldn't be in "Matrimonial". Maybe someone could start a new thread!
The postings from where the deviation started could all be moved to a new thread perhaps called Thoughts on ICM. That way we will not lose the postings.
I hope the granularity of the data stored is good enough for such a move.
I also hope the postings have an attribute changing which they can be selectively shown /hidden for public view.
I hope the granularity of the data stored is good enough for such a move.
I also hope the postings have an attribute changing which they can be selectively shown /hidden for public view.
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The developments in this thread were fascinating to read. I am so glad that we have such well thought out opinions on the issue. I was enriched at the end of it all.
I do agree with silverfox in that this discussion doesn't do justice to the title of the thread. Kashyap's suggestion on moving relevant parts of this thread to another place seems like a good idea.
My quick two cents. Kashyap - you point about the travails of intercaste marriage is very well articulated. I too know of a couple of examples that wound up heart-broken after a 'love' marriage (inter-caste). In the same vein I'd like to acknowledge that not all cases end up so. However, I agree that the purpose of marriage is to go beyond the sphere of two people and provide a conducive atmosphere for the birth of good souls. Born_again_Iyer_Mami (very interesting name) that macrocosm/microcosm perspective was very cool. Do keep it coming. But in a place to which this thread will be moved.
I do agree with silverfox in that this discussion doesn't do justice to the title of the thread. Kashyap's suggestion on moving relevant parts of this thread to another place seems like a good idea.
My quick two cents. Kashyap - you point about the travails of intercaste marriage is very well articulated. I too know of a couple of examples that wound up heart-broken after a 'love' marriage (inter-caste). In the same vein I'd like to acknowledge that not all cases end up so. However, I agree that the purpose of marriage is to go beyond the sphere of two people and provide a conducive atmosphere for the birth of good souls. Born_again_Iyer_Mami (very interesting name) that macrocosm/microcosm perspective was very cool. Do keep it coming. But in a place to which this thread will be moved.
sir - even in the central govt. office where i am working, i am surprised to see that many bramin women have married non bramin males! it is not clear when so many bramin males are there, why these girls are falling for non bramins! as per law & tradition,even the children they bear will have to live as non bramins necessarily. how these women adjust for food, is a mystery!!!
L
lotus_quartz
Guest
Advantaged offspring
Well, I would not blame those Brahmana women who are in a financially weak position, and thinking about their offspring. After all, every woman would want to ensure their offspring have access to the most benefits and advantages. Also, some Brahmana women may have not found the right Brahmana match, and have decided to take matters into their own hands. Practicality trumps ideology in real life. But I would still think the rate of inter-caste marriage among Tambrams would be less than 10%, based of course on anecdotal evidence among all my relatives and friends.
Well, I would not blame those Brahmana women who are in a financially weak position, and thinking about their offspring. After all, every woman would want to ensure their offspring have access to the most benefits and advantages. Also, some Brahmana women may have not found the right Brahmana match, and have decided to take matters into their own hands. Practicality trumps ideology in real life. But I would still think the rate of inter-caste marriage among Tambrams would be less than 10%, based of course on anecdotal evidence among all my relatives and friends.
L
lotus_quartz
Guest
3 Questions
Approaching the issue from a different angle.
Nowadays, much greater opportunities are available to young generation for mixing and interacting with each other in the school, college/universities and in the job.
If your son or daughter decided to marry someone outside the caste or outside the religion, would you :
1. Suffer a heart attack; or
2. Pull every tantrum available in the book and off the books to dissuade them from doing so; or
3. Allow them the freedom of choice and take things in your stride?
Approaching the issue from a different angle.
Nowadays, much greater opportunities are available to young generation for mixing and interacting with each other in the school, college/universities and in the job.
If your son or daughter decided to marry someone outside the caste or outside the religion, would you :
1. Suffer a heart attack; or
2. Pull every tantrum available in the book and off the books to dissuade them from doing so; or
3. Allow them the freedom of choice and take things in your stride?
H
hariharan1972
Guest
Hmmm.......
1. Would depend on distance between my residence & nearest 'Wockhardt Hospital'
2. What you thought Heart attack was ?
3. 'Take things in your stride' - Got it ! Soon after, i 'divorce' my spouse & re-marry outside caste right ?
er....well, that was the 'rationalist' in me responding !!!!!
The real response would be somewhere in between '2 & 3'. While it is not exactly a 'tantrum', i guess it is the responsibility of the parent to 'double-check' the choice & if it is not an appropriate one, (not for caste reasons, but due to other factors such as educational criteria, practices etc..) "reason" it out. However if the son or daughter is adamant about his/her choice, guess it is better not to stand in the way.
Having said that, if at a latter date, should the marriage fail, i guess as a parent, it is better to be supportive rather than greeting them with a 'I-told-you-so' de-briefing.
1. Would depend on distance between my residence & nearest 'Wockhardt Hospital'
2. What you thought Heart attack was ?
3. 'Take things in your stride' - Got it ! Soon after, i 'divorce' my spouse & re-marry outside caste right ?
er....well, that was the 'rationalist' in me responding !!!!!
The real response would be somewhere in between '2 & 3'. While it is not exactly a 'tantrum', i guess it is the responsibility of the parent to 'double-check' the choice & if it is not an appropriate one, (not for caste reasons, but due to other factors such as educational criteria, practices etc..) "reason" it out. However if the son or daughter is adamant about his/her choice, guess it is better not to stand in the way.
Having said that, if at a latter date, should the marriage fail, i guess as a parent, it is better to be supportive rather than greeting them with a 'I-told-you-so' de-briefing.
L
lotus_quartz
Guest
Why Wockhahdt only? Why not Appollo or for that matter Govt. General Hospital? Disapproving the calibre of Govt. Doctors?
'Heart Attack' is a carefully chosen psycological warfare tactics routinely practiced by the parent in Hindi movies whose children decide to go in for ICM/IRM.
As far as your point number 3 is concerned, I understand most of the who-is-who of TN maintain a chinna veedu/kutti veedu. Brought up in north, I was not aware that such practices exist and are commonplace. I was quite shocked to know when I heard about these practices few weeks back.
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