Inter-caste marriages - Practical difficulties, suggesetions, solutions.

[Raghy]

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Respectable members,

Greetings. I take this opportunity to thank every member who have contributed to this thread. It is very nice to see a discussion on a very sensitive subject taking place, without talking ill of any castes.

Neither this thread nor this forum promotes Inter-Caste Marriages (ICM). More over, this thread is not about ICM involving only Brahmin caste; ICM can happen between any castes. There are 100s of castes to choose from. Fact of the matter is, Brahmin caste is also one of the castes touched by ICM. This thread is about, like Sri.Kunjuppu aptly put, 'how to survive a storm'. Just because we make all sorts of plans and educations, that does not mean we are 'inviting' or 'promoting' storms; there were storms in the past; there will be more in the future.

The future generation may require to consider brides/grooms from inter-caste. One day in the future, people may brush caste feelings aside when considering a match for their sons/daughters. I am not smoking weed when I am typing this; I am just outlining the strong possibility. If one has a doubt, one has to look at the persons who live inter-state and overseas; the caste feelings in such families are watered down; some families don't even bother about caste.

வருமுன்னர் காவாதான் வாழ்க்கை எரிமுன்னர்
வைத்தூறு போலக் கெடும்.

When we take the small community consist of the members of this forum, ICM have touched many members already. The younger generation requires our support in the time of need. Kindly treat this thread as a counselling point, if one likes think like that, please. Entering in a Inter-Caste marriage is neither a sin nor a crime.

(I always thought myself as an Indian only. What is more, my daughter, born in Australia counts herself as an Indian and an Australian too).

Cheers!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

We have to adapt to change. We have been doing it over thousands of years. When we left our village we did make changes in our life style to suit the urban areas. Then when we shifted to cities outside Tamil Nadu we made changes. There are many places in North India where you do not get Puzhungal (Boiled) Rice. Some places it stinks to heaven. We were used to eating hand pounded Puzhungal Rice. Then when we changed our basic stable food. The same case with vegetables.

Please think about how we have changed our food habits and life styles to adapt to changing circumstances. Have you tried getting vegetarian food in Germany? People have survived on French Fries.

Similarly when we know that inter caste marriages are slowly becoming the norm of the day, we have to be prepared for change. Adapt ourselves.

The people who are shocked are the people who even earlier did very little adaptation. They were lucky to have the same food and life style with very little change.

A family like mine where the boys went all over India and abroad for work, we were used to changes. We had to adapt. You may not like having Jilebhi and milk for breakfast. But then that is the only breakfast available in some parts of India.

But to adapt to inter caste marriages we have to know about other communities. Their life styles, their culture, their ways of thinking. Many parents/couples are shocked later since they go into the marriage without adequate preparation.

I will talk about preparing for inter caste marriages if our members want to hear about it.

 

[kunjuppu]

I will talk about preparing for inter caste marriages if our members want to hear about it.

dear nacchi,

awaiting eagerly you starting salvo. much thanks in advance.

 

[B Suresh Kumar]

Dear Kunjuppu, Sangom and Raghy,
I apprecaite your comments and the justifications made by you.
Mr Raghy started this thread highlighting the problems faced on account of ICMs and wanted for suggestions and solutions.
I just added one more problem regarding the siblings for which Mr Kunjuppu remarked that our community is narrow minded. I couldnt take it happily and that made me write my post #23 as I thought some of my family members might get injured by the comment.
I am not against ICMs or love marriages but I am for marriage within the community.
Our family has a history of love marriage as early as 1930's.
Hope many of you would have known MR Sunderji Major General. His mother and My fathers mother are own sisters from the Vadama Iyer community. His father was Iyengar and my grand father refused to accept their marriage. Eventhouh Sunderji was my fathers first cousin i could not meet and call him as chithappa because the family got cut mainly due to intercaste marriage and partially due to his posting in north.
I will now come to the present generation.
My brother in laws( wifes brother) son loved and married my sister in laws ( wifes sister) daughter. My brother in law didnt accept the marriage and is yet to compromise with his son eventhough the marriage is more than five years old. There is no inter caste or inter family involved but it is within the family. My brother in law didnt attend any family function for two years after the marriage. Fortunately he also has a daughter younger to his son and had to perform her marriage and after that he has reconciled himself and is attending family functions.
One of my sister in law's daughter married a telugu guy and her brother is finding it difficult to find a spouse.
My brother is also searching a girl for his son. His sons birth star is Ayiliyam and once he rang to a girls father, a connection through a matrimony site, who started shouting at my brother as how dare he had the guts to ring him up when both the parents of the girl are alive.
I have mentioned the reality prevailing here and I am sure these are not the isolated cases.
The culture in Canada, Australia and USA are different.
It is difficult to change the mindset.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear suresh,

i am not so sure that the difficulty your brother is experiencing re his son, is more to do with the non availability of girls. as you can see by the postings of the various threads, it is the reality of our community.

thank you for sharing your family experiences. in my extended family of pattars, we have more than 20 ic marriages, 3 ir marriages, and whatever may have been the initial reaction, folks reconciled when grand children started arriving. except one case of a girl cousin marrying a christian. here the reconcilation did not happen due to other reasons than the marriage itself.

not easy. but possible if there is a will.

 

[sangom]

Dear Kunjuppu, Sangom and Raghy,
I apprecaite your comments and the justifications made by you.
Mr Raghy started this thread highlighting the problems faced on account of ICMs and wanted for suggestions and solutions.
I just added one more problem regarding the siblings for which Mr Kunjuppu remarked that our community is narrow minded. I couldnt take it happily and that made me write my post #23 as I thought some of my family members might get injured by the comment.
I am not against ICMs or love marriages but I am for marriage within the community.

Dear Shri Suresh Kumar,

As I explained in the previous post, the wave of ICMs/IRMs seems to be real and gaining strength. Why our tabra youth have this penchant for different castes/religions, is it attraction towards these, or a repulsion for tabras of the opposite sex is not clear to me. But it may be a combination of both, perhaps. It may be a good thing to marry within caste but we cannot stem social changes and have to adapt. That is the only way for survival.

One of my sister in law's daughter married a telugu guy and her brother is finding it difficult to find a spouse. My brother is also searching a girl for his son. His sons birth star is Ayiliyam and once he rang to a girls father, a connection through a matrimony site, who started shouting at my brother as how dare he had the guts to ring him up when both the parents of the girl are alive.

Astrology has been wreaking havoc especially because any one can buy a book today, find out the superficial "ten porutthams", stars and their evil results and such things. Really good astrologers will go deeper. My cousin (now 68) Ayilyam star, married his next house (agrahaaram) girl - though he says it was not at all love marriage, I know for a fact that his father, a confirmed orthodox man, was very much in favour of the alliance and hence believe my cousin's statement that it was not LM - and his FIL lived for quite some years and died in old age only. Hence this star-based omnibus fault-finding is baseless to the nth. degree, IMHO. But now the groom's side is at the receiving end and they also have to adapt to it.

Looking at the scenario as I get to view it, tabra youth (males) who are not in the highest income bracket, really handsome, well-built body, and a job in a western country with chances of permanently settling there, should better consider ICMs, if not IRMs also as a sure means of getting married in proper age.

 

[Yamaka]

Raghy:

Mine was a IRM happened about 32 years ago.. since ICMs and IRMs are close cousins, I dare to give my two-cents on this matter:

1. Since very many stakeholders are involved you just can't satisfy all of them. But you should at least empathize with the sensitivities of the parents and immediate family members.

My folks are Religious Pragmatists and her folks are Religious Supremacists, hence there were enormous problems. After some initial protest, my folks accepted her "as a sweet smart girl" whereas her folks just flatly refused and condemned the daughter to the core.

2. Soon after the marriage, we emigrated to US and live a comfortable and peaceful life with a son and daughter (both raised in a Secular family environment). My wife takes them occasionally to the local temple, and as I am a non-religious person, it never bothers me.

For me, the Holy Books of Gita, Koran and Bible do not answer hundreds of questions I have - hence my "religiosity" is quite different from that of my parents or others..

3. After about five years, my wife's side just cooled a little bit and wanted to see how we live - they wanted to compare the life styles of my family and that of their son who obeyed their commands and lived in India - the comparison was stark and extremely "unbelievable"! We are much much happier than "them" - our kids are very easily moving with everybody and care-free, where as "theirs" are ever suspecting and cynical and self-defensive.

Plus, our material possessions and happiness index overall were beyond their comprehension... their son got into drinking and smoking.. alas, died prematurely with a very unhappy wife around..

My ils are pretty angry about the Crooked Justice of the Gods... where is the Retribution against IRM? They keep asking... the Gods are silent... Where's the need for any Retribution? Perhaps, the Gods ask them!!

4. My conclusion is the parties involved must "bend over backwards" to accommodate the sensibilities of the other parties... and should give some time for the wounds to heal.

Again, you just can't satisfy ALL.. and "you can't have the cake, and eat it too".

The watch word is Pragmatism...Pragmatism.... Objectivity...and Happiness of the couple..

Religious Supremacy will destroy families, IMO

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

Yamaka,

I find that settling down in the anonymity that western cultures provide, is the best balm to any unions which are fraught with social sensitivity or disapproval in india. Particularly in the villages.

And that too, live in a city, where you do not have blood relatives. You can make friends, and these are by choice, and who accept you as what you are, and pretty much have a fulfilling life, ignoring the orthodoxy crowd.

 

[Yamaka]

kunjuppu:

Yes, yes...

..but what would you do if an IRM/ICM couple is "forced" (by circumstances unique to the couples) to live in a small town or closer to their village?

Admittedly, the topic is very complex, and needs novel strategies...

Thanks.

 

[kunjuppu]

kunjuppu:

Yes, yes...

..but what would you do if an IRM/ICM couple is "forced" (by circumstances unique to the couples) to live in a small town or closer to their village?

Admittedly, the topic is very complex, and needs novel strategies...

Thanks.

yamaka,

any ideas? i give up.

incidentally, i am re-watching one of my all time favourites - vinnai thaandi varuvaaya. same topic.

seems to be prevalent all over

 

[Yamaka]

Kunjuppu:

1. I will tell the couples in villages and small towns to "some how charm" one of the families to support them - it will take time, but persistence could give some fruit.

Lest, their physical safety may be in peril. We have read horror stories of family members murdering "this strange couple".

2. I loved VTV for the story and Rahman's music.. here at least the girl was very clear (against her personal feelings and emotions) from the beginning that she will not be able to marry the boy.. but the boy was disappointed at the end. There was no tragedy.

Please see the Devdass (by Sharuk & Ash) also - Paru waited for him for years, but the boy didn't have the guts to walk away from his Cultural Supremacist father!

At the end, he meets with a pathetic death! Another Shakespearian tragedy!

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

yamaka,

you are good.

all it needs is one couple friend. should not even need to charm them. i believe there are enough good people in this world.

recently we had entertained one of our friends, whose antecedents is from one small village in konkani karnataka. a girl fell in love with a muslim. the village elders, called them together, wished them well, and warned them not to set their foot in the village again, for jeopardy of their lives.

i presume it is the same in the north with hindus or muslims or sikhs. we are indeed tribal. very tribal.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Yamaka said -

Yes, yes...

..but what would you do if an IRM/ICM couple is "forced" (by circumstances unique to the couples) to live in a small town or closer to their village?

Admittedly, the topic is very complex, and needs novel strategies...

Sri.Kunjuppu said -

any ideas? i give up.

The day after New Year's day, my nephew sent a mail informing that he became a happy uncle of of twin boys. Today my mum writes me about her twin 'Kollu Perans' (கொள்ளு பேரர்கள்). She is an Iyengar girl; I did not ask her husband's caste. They live in the same town, within a KM from her parents. Her father said " I wish to move from this house; but, I am not able to find one this close or closer to my daughter.....". and said " have you met her husband? Gem of a person! only the caste is different...."....Her SIL said about his FIL " He loves our daughter; both of us go to work, he is so helpful to us; I have to stay away now and again, but he is always there in support".

This gentleman FIL was bitterly against their wedding. He was furious with me for supporting the wedding. It was end of 2005. Just under 6 years later, he would not have anyone else as his daughter's husband. All this happened in a small town 130 Kms from Chennai.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Yamaka said -



Sri.Kunjuppu said -



The day after New Year's day, my nephew sent a mail informing that he became a happy uncle of of twin boys. Today my mum writes me about her twin 'Kollu Perans' (கொள்ளு பேரர்கள்). She is an Iyengar girl; I did not ask her husband's caste. They live in the same town, within a KM from her parents. Her father said " I wish to move from this house; but, I am not able to find one this close or closer to my daughter.....". and said " have you met her husband? Gem of a person! only the caste is different...."....Her SIL said about his FIL " He loves our daughter; both of us go to work, he is so helpful to us; I have to stay away now and again, but he is always there in support".

This gentleman FIL was bitterly against their wedding. He was furious with me for supporting the wedding. It was end of 2005. Just under 6 years later, he would not have anyone else as his daughter's husband. All this happened in a small town 130 Kms from Chennai.

Cheers!

Raghy,

I think we should accept such elders without any bias (against them) because the ability to change is also due to a streak of pragmatism, broadmindedness, or whatever. There are some who oppose the icm because of their long orthodox views (understandable at this juncture of time, IMO) but think that being obstinate about it is creditable and a pious act which will earn them "punya"!

 

[Yamaka]

....Time will heal the wound...

Does this mean a Supremacist can transform himself into a Pragmatist? Yes.... people CAN change and grow!

 

[kunjuppu]

Kunjuppu:

1. I will tell the couples in villages and small towns to "some how charm" one of the families to support them - it will take time, but persistence could give some fruit.

Lest, their physical safety may be in peril. We have read horror stories of family members murdering "this strange couple".

2. I loved VTV for the story and Rahman's music.. here at least the girl was very clear (against her personal feelings and emotions) from the beginning that she will not be able to marry the boy.. but the boy was disappointed at the end. There was no tragedy.

Please see the Devdass (by Sharuk & Ash) also - Paru waited for him for years, but the boy didn't have the guts to walk away from his Cultural Supremacist father!

At the end, he meets with a pathetic death! Another Shakespearian tragedy!

Cheers.

yamaka,

the fear of being killed by the relatives in small towns is very very high. it is best that the ic couples go to the cities. atleast it provides a semblance of anyonymity, espcially in NB neighbourhoods. only the brahmins are particular about to whom they let the house.

VTV is awesome in all respects. i cannot find any blemish in it. btw, i strongly recommend a malayalam movie 'sancharram'. you can see it free on youtube. a very delicate topic of two high school girls falling in love, and from there on. so beautiful, touching, poignant and feeling. won a lot of awards internationally, but was denied general screening in kerala. it did get screened publicly outside of godsowncountry.

re devdas.. not too crazy about either SRK or ARB. will see it sometime. i guess. right now i am seeing again, ishqiya - second time. my ever favourite vidya balan. i think her best role so far. waiting for the dirty movie - her take on silk smtha's life.

 

[kunjuppu]

yamaka,

re karthik in vtv, i suspect, that jessie thought that he was using her as a muse all the time. he was focused on his career in the movie industry and to him, jessie came only second.

the fact that he hesitated to ask her to come to goa sealed the fate of the relationship. after all goa is a civilized place and he could have lodged her anywhere nearby. that is what i would have done. instead he told her to hold on in an hostile environment in chennai. her father might have killed her.

right?

 

[Yamaka]

"re karthik in vtv, i suspect, that jessie thought that he was using her as a muse all the time. he was focused on his career in the movie industry and to him, jessie came only second."

K:

I thought jessie knew very well that karthik truly loved her, although he was crazy about his job ALSO. I can't say jessie came second only - In the song "Mannippaya.." you feel her anguish.

She was mortally afraid of her dad & bro who probably would have killed her, if they knew that she was in love with karthik.

Her folks were perfectly okay with karthik as long as he was just a "friend" not "a boy-friend"!!

Good movie, I enjoyed it... I loved all the songs and tunes of ARR.

I will see the other movie you cited soon!

Regards

Y

 

[renuka]

The main reason I didnt see VTV is becos of the actor..I somehow cant stand him..many friends told me to watch it but I did not anyway any Inter religous love story kind of makes me uncomfortable cos from any real life intereligous marriage I have seen ..It always the Hindu that loses out..

 

[B Suresh Kumar]

[anyway any Inter religous love story kind of makes me uncomfortable cos from any real life intereligous marriage I have seen ..It always the Hindu that loses out..[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you. Muslims or christians are not against inter-religiion marriages but convert the boy or the girl as the case may be into their religion just before the marriage.

 

[renuka]

Dear Suresh,

I am speaking from 100% evidence and what I dislike the most is some Hindus convert for others before marriage and then after marriage try to crawl back to Hinduism and say all cock and bull that they converted just on paper but in heart they are still Hindu.
And even if there is no conversion the Non Hindu parent will be sowing seeds of their own religion very very early and the Hindu parent will be reciting this shloka
"God is One, all Religions are the Same" and not bother what happens..

 

[kunjuppu]

renu,

i am with you re ir marriages. only in west i see the girls or their parents have respect for hindu traditions. almost all the ir weddings with whites, either there are 2 ceremonies, or only one hindu ceremony. i am speaking of tambrams only.

i think it is our own fault. look at this forum here and the exclusiveness. even within caste there is gothram and what not. i have relatives like that. is it not surprising that they will not accept the other religion dil or sil or simply exclude them from all the functions? even hindu ic marriages get treated like dirt and the girl usually suffers. our women are insensitive, mean and cruel, as a rule. it is a rare gem who is broad hearted to accept a dil, especially from ic or ir. in india. in the west it is different. atleast i think so.

 

[kunjuppu]

yamaka,

i also thought manippaya, was a two timing song. that she intended to get away from him, because (1) her father (2) his love for films which she hated.

she was willing to play the muse, just enough to get him going, for she liked the dalliance and the flirting. this movie had many facets.

i agree with renu that they overemphasised the xtian sentiments. and paid tribute only marginally to the hindu one. i was surprised that gautam was this scared of politics. actually the girl indicates the temple, and he ties the thali outside the temple. which is not in good taste to either the girl or hinduism.

still a good movie. it made a character actor out of a erstwhile lightweight in simbu. i liked him. ofcourse trisha in this movie i loved. it was my first trisha movie. after this liked in abhiyum naanum, but was not impressed with any other of her movie. btw she too is a pattar.

 

[renuka]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Does Pattar mean Phalghat Tamil Iyer? If it is you are in deep trouble now with me..U know why!!!!
You were just preaching about broadmindness but you are looking out for "own types"

Wass up man????

 

[kunjuppu]

what to do renu - i cannot but help to appreciate a thing of beauty, though i would not go so far as to consider trisha as a joy forever yes she is a palghat iyer like i am. and another of my favourites vidya balan.

btw the rich and the NB (lower in the supposed varna scale are more broadminded).

surya a gounder, married jothika a muslim. they had no problem conducting the wedding hindu style and accepting her as dil. i dont think any formal religious conversion took place though. similarly khushboo goes as a hindu for all practical purposes.

also did you know that in india (especially in the north) if a hindu wants to get married to a muslim, they have to fill out special papers, register with the police and get clearance from the parents. this is what i read.

one step enough...

here is a blog by suhasini haidar. she is the daughter of the politician subramaniam swamy. she married a muslim, the son of a senior bureuacrat salman haidar. again i would imagine there is only a formal registered wedding. would be surprised if there is any conversion involved. it may be by default the kids are brought up godless or 'both faithes' whatever that means.

if the kids seek arranged marriages, there may be problems finding hindu spouses, but not muslim or xtians. i think inthe interest of hinduism, we should accept dil sil into our faith and familiarize them with our way of life. incidentally swami's wife is a white american and i am not sure as to the status of the marriage. mrs swamy is a supreme court lawyer who spends her time in new delhi, while swamy is a politician in chennai.

at the high echelons of government, politics and moviedom ir marriages are common.