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Re: Horoscope matching

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Mr Raji Ram,

I understand all about adjustments. My question was something more fundamental. Say the boy or girl is very religious and the other one is an active atheist, or one wants to have children and the other one doesn't. My point was what if the difference was irreconcilable. If you not married you can simply say let us part as friends and walk away. But if you are married, then the only option is divorce. I suppose this might be the reason for recent increases in the number of divorces.

Just random thoughts.

K. Kumar
 
Mr Raji Ram........
Mr. Raji Ram??? Kumar Sir, I am Smt. Raji Ram. :)

The few minutes meeting and fixing wedding happens only when the parents take the initial steps. Horoscope matching

and / OR checking the family details and girl's and boy's likes and dislikes are checked before the boy meets the girl.

Hence, an atheist and theist getting married is very rare, imho.
 
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Smt. Raji Ram,

My apologies for addressing you as Mr. Raji Ram. It was a typo.

I did not want to get into gory details of areas of disagreements. Let me just give you one example as a teaser: "kinky sex". I can't imagine parents knowing anything about that topic, do you :). Nor can I imagine anyone discussing sex as a topic in the few minutes that they have to chat. During those few minutes both parties are trying to put out their best to impress the other person, assuming there is some mutual attraction as Ms. Renu had mentioned. If that attraction is not there, then of course it just becomes a formality to be over and done with. You can discuss lot of things openly if you are not under pressure and get a general idea about a person's views on various things. People are less forthcoming if they feel they are being evaluated. Hence my question.

Unfortunately I did not gain any experience of this process, as my daughter chose her own partner. My wife's brother went to his Church, picked a poor girl and married her. So no exposure to any traditional system there as well.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not arguing against the system, nor am I taking sides. The system you have described has worked very well in the past (I think). I am just curious because I did not go through the process, and had the advantage of discussing all these topics before marriage. So I knew what I was getting into.

K. Kumar
 
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dear kumar,

in addition to kinky sex, even how much sex is something in an arranged marriage an open question. the husband may want more and the wife just the bare minimum to satisfy procreation needs (1 or 2 max these days). sexual compatibility is not discussed, and considering that one is defaulted to be a virigin at marriage, one does not have the experience even to comment on it.

as raji says, there is a lot of adjustments. which in my case, because mrs K and i came from as similar a family as possible, with not only accents (palghat), cooking (palghat), house mores (palghat) and above all antecedents (palghat) - all this helped us make a home but even that involved lots of adjustments.

thankfully, there were only two of us, and hence could make out own rules, as we went along. that the fact we lived in canada, i was a liberated male as far as female equality was considered, and that too absolutely, that mrs K loved the freedom and the opportunities of the west, we have a good marriage.

would have been more tough, if there were parents involved, hers or mine. as i have seen it happen here, on several occassions. and girls going back to india or guys abusing their wives who sponsored them to canada in the first place. the indian male mentality in both instances, cannot or is unable to adjust roles and responsibilities as it reflects in the west. the indian girl comes with this expectation and is disappointed if the hubby is a traditional indian. in the other case, the husband cannot accept the westernized wife, even if it meant her going to work or wearing a lipstick :(

my own sister had a love marriage, tambram ofcourse. i have found that there is an additional oomph in their relationship. even after 34 years they have an oodal in their relationship, and the way my bil even addresses her, there is a fondness, that came out a classic movie like romantic story - he saw her in his cousin's house, her classmate, fell for her, and wooed there the typical tamil movie way. add to it, he looked dashing with pomaded hair and arumbu meesai, sharp dressing and the panache that went with it. my sis simply swooned, and my parents were faced a 'fait accompli' situation of a dashing young brahmin boy after their rather demure but pretty daughter.

then the parents took over, and along with it went the negotiations re jewels dowry and all such nasty stuff.

i find this common, even in indian marriages here in canada. the love initiative stops when the marriage initiative is taken over by the parents. recently a tambram girl married a gujju, with the gujju guy being the chaser. when it came to marriage, the gujju dad told the tambram dad, that it was the tambram dad who has to foot the bill, entire 70,000 dolla. i told this friend of mine to refuse but he did not have the guts.

in my own son's case, he and his beloved decided the dates, invited us on short notice, and surprised us conveniently, so that we did not have the knowledge or obligation to tell the whole world of relations. i like those type of weddings - simple, minimal cost and very personally informal.

congrats to you and mrs kumar on your 35 years of happy wedded life, and many many more years to come :)
 
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Now coming back to the topic of horoscopes, do the parties look at future predictions if there is a match. Do they find out how the marriage will be, longevity of the boy and the girl etc.

If anything untoward is found, do they reject the proposal outright or do they discuss with the other party or get a second opinion?

The question is how much importance is laid on this horoscope by the two parties?

K. Kumar
 
Too much information.
Kumarji,
Horoscope matching was of utmost importance, family background, boy and girls qualifications were all considered.
Fortunately we do not have any dowry (Pipe dream, I am against it), so that negotiation was not there.
Back to your question, if Horoscope did not match (separately for both side) it was NO (rare exceptions).
In an arranged marriage you do not have the opportunity in a typical conservative Brahmin family to ask any private questions.
You get what you see.
You find out what you really got after the marriage, by the time it is too late.
It is like buying vendakay in the vegetable market, you bought it you get to keep. It is not like you bought it at Wall mart and you can return it if you do not want it.
My mother saw the girl and told me that I can never aspire for a better wife, and she was right (like Mr. K said).
Personal experience we met for 1 hour as a family setting, may be 10 minutes of it was private. Next day engagement, 4 days later marriage. Fortunately it was a lucky day for me. My wife in a weak moment accepted, and probably regrets it now (LOL).
Like Mr. K, Mr. KRS, and Mr. Sangom said in other threads, it worked, because I married way above my level in all aspects of life.
 
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Let me just give you one example as a teaser: "kinky sex". I can't imagine parents knowing anything about that topic, do you :). Nor can I imagine anyone discussing sex as a topic in the few minutes that they have to chat.
K. Kumar


Dear Kumar ji,


Never underestimate any generation!LOL

I once read a saying that went "The problem with sex is each generation feels they discovered it"


So we have no idea sir..what our ancestors knew..may be they just hid their hand cuffs, blindfolds and whips far away from the present generation.

Every generation has skeletons in their closets!LOL
 
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Dear Kumar Sir,

I will just give an example and you derive the answer, OK?

Ram's cousin living in the U S of A has three sons to be married and one of them came to India to see his prospective bride

at Delhi. Some horoscope matching was done earlier by parents and family status was approved by both sides. Then this guy

flew down to Delhi and met the girl and family. Was impressed! He told the parents to send their daughter with him on a three

day (and night) trip to Shimla to 'know' each other well! Next moment he was shown the door and had to fly back to his place!!


There used to be at least two or three 'poNNu pArkkal' for tambram boys and could he 'know' everything about each girl? :nono:

Now one Q for you! Sorry..... Did you 'know' everything before your wedding with your fiancee?? :love:
 
Smt. Raji Ram,

I think there has been some huge misunderstanding here. Let me try and clarify. When I mentioned "kinky sex", I had given that as an example of irreconcilable difference, that is one partner wanting it and the other partner taking a stand that it was completely unacceptable. There are many things a person wouldn't compromise, and I just threw this as an extreme example to make a point, since you had responded saying that parents would do all the checking regarding views on religion, children etc.

The point I was trying to make was that if the couple had an opportunity to talk under normal circumstances, over many discussions, if one of them had those tendencies there is good chance that it would have come out in some form or the other. Then a person could decide saying this is not my cup of tea and decide not to get married. However if you find these tendencies after the marriage what is the recourse?

In my case, Smt. Raji Ram, both of us knew that we did not have any kinky or deviant sexual desires. In our many discussions about society/morality/scruples/sex/family/parents/children we were able to gauge this about each other.:)

I apologize if have stirred up a controversy. None was intended.

K. Kumar
 
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Dear Kumar Sir,

I am just putting forth my views. Thats all! No controversies. I gave an example also to you to get an idea. Normally

the conversations between boys and girls, if initiative is taken by parents, are just about the job, living style, outlook

in life, likes and dislikes and not about intimate relationship after the wedding!


When I was in high school, one of our family friends used to get advice from dad. They used to stop their conversation

if any of us - kids pass by. Many years later, I knew that the friend was asking for some medicines to control his wife's

desire (!) since he was unable to satisfy her! Those marriages did NOT end in a divorce because divorce was considered

a stigma then! Now relocation and compatibility in desire are the main causes of divorce.


I have heard one of my chithappAs saying often, "Any fight between me and chithi will NOT be dragged till the next day!" :lol:
 
Smt Raji Ram,

I had gone through that thread when it was active. Mr. Prasad has more or less summarized what is happening. I have a good idea now. It is a question of "caveat emptor" or buyer beware. The hope is that with parents doing the due diligence, horoscope matching etc the marriage will be good and lasting one.

I guess it all depends on the definition of what a good marriage is, isn't it.:D That is another big can of worms.

I appreciate all of you for indulging me by providing answers, to questions that might have sounded silly/stupid. I think it is time for me to declare my innings. Thanks for being such good sports.

K. Kumar
 
Dear Sri K. Kumar Ji,

I have seen enough examples of 'love' and 'arranged' marriages, that I can say this. The outcome seems to be about the same - that is to say, that the percentage of couple who, when they are finished can look back and say, yep, I had a really great marriage.

To me, it all comes to total commitment to each other, and deep love in a marriage, that makes one to be gentle, empathetic and above all not fretting the small stuff. Granted, there may be big stuff that crops up, but that can happen in any marriage - people change, their needs change, and above all circumstances change. So, providence has a hand in this too.

Jaathi Porutham, is just a way to match up in several important aspects of a married life (including sexual compatibility, by the way), but then this is only as good as an astrologer's acumen. Many a widow and a widower stand in stark examples of this.

While on the other hand, I have seen many a love marriage gone astray, as the 'love' is proved to be fleeting.

I am glad all the ways exist in this world, where chances for mating to the right person can happen. That's all one can ask for. It is then up to the married to make it work. Marriage is after all, as I have heard many of my elders say an institution akin to 'Aayiram Kala Payiru'.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear KRS ji,

When I read your posts about marriage and love..it sounds so ideal and compatible like out of a movie.

I feel a good attention span is a pre requisite for a good stable marriage...but those with short attention span might get bored of anything and everything so for such people marriage might not interest them after a while.

But anyway I have a question for you...I hope you dont mind answering.

You did say that you fell in love twice and was married to a wonderful lady and then after her demise you fell in love again with another lovely lady and married her.

Just say in another life..you meet them both and you regain your past birth memory..can you love them both at the same time??
 
Dear Srimathi Renuka ji,

An excellent question, but a very unfair one, in my opinion. And something I have pondered over quite long without satisfying answers, but came to an answer nevertheless. Only folks that have lost their loved consorts can understand what I am going to say, in my humble opinion.

My first marriage was like a Tamil movie, even the ending. I was instructed by my dying wife that I was still young enough to get remarried and what all she wanted was me being happy. She also talked to others about it.

So, it was on my part, after going through a deep depression lasting a couple of years to come out of it to start living again. My children were grown up and did not need my attention then, and so, it came down to what I wanted to live a full life. I wanted companionship and love as I had before.

My current wife, while in many ways reminds me of my late wife in personality, is very different in various aspects. I love her for it.

So, to answer your question, when I meet them hypothetically, in a future life, it does not depend on who they would be - it would be solely on who I would be to be more or less attracted to either of them. Because, who I would be is not up to me, it is with Ishwara,

Regards,
KRS
 
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I have a general question, it may seem silly. If people know themselves well and know they are the type who have short attention span and get bored easily, why get married at all? isn't it better to be single and not ruin other people's life. I think when one decides to do something, one should give it their all and be prepared.
 
Dear Sri K. Kumar Ji,

I have seen enough examples of 'love' and 'arranged' marriages, that I can say this. The outcome seems to be about the same - that is to say, that the percentage of couple who, when they are finished can look back and say, yep, I had a really great marriage.

To me, it all comes to total commitment to each other, and deep love in a marriage, that makes one to be gentle, empathetic and above all not fretting the small stuff. Granted, there may be big stuff that crops up, but that can happen in any marriage - people change, their needs change, and above all circumstances change. So, providence has a hand in this too.

Jaathi Porutham, is just a way to match up in several important aspects of a married life (including sexual compatibility, by the way), but then this is only as good as an astrologer's acumen. Many a widow and a widower stand in stark examples of this.

While on the other hand, I have seen many a love marriage gone astray, as the 'love' is proved to be fleeting.

I am glad all the ways exist in this world, where chances for mating to the right person can happen. That's all one can ask for. It is then up to the married to make it work. Marriage is after all, as I have heard many of my elders say an institution akin to 'Aayiram Kala Payiru'.

Regards,
KRS

Mr. KRS,

I am in total agreement with your post. The outcome of any marriage, irrespective of how it came about, depends on the two individuals who get married.

I was curious because a couple of years back my sister was wondering how she should go about finding mates for her children. Subsequently it turned out they found their own mates and she didn't need to worry about any process.

My initial post was to understand the process from horoscope matching to the actual wedding. Smt. Raji Ram's post #31 gave the steps. My subsequent posts were an attempt to explore a particular step further.

If I came across as supporting one process over the other, then it is my inability to express myself clearly. I will go back to the drawing board and start working on it. Who am I to say which is better when I am busy trying to keeping the marriage that I have going :)

I sincerely apologize to everyone, if I have offended any one.

K. Kumar
 
Dear all, atleast we the parents see the gothras of the boy and girl before getting married and we, as per our hindu tradition say if same gothra of two persons are treated as brother and sister. Can we...?
 
hi sir,
nice words....it is for the aethiests/agnostics......to realise the reality of life...one has to go through some kind real life pains....

Because, who I would be is not up to me, it is with Ishwara,..........i agreed with u...
 
I have a general question, it may seem silly. If people know themselves well and know they are the type who have short attention span and get bored easily, why get married at all? isn't it better to be single and not ruin other people's life. I think when one decides to do something, one should give it their all and be prepared.
hi amala...

you hit the point.....lol
 
Dear all, atleast we the parents see the gothras of the boy and girl before getting married and we, as per our hindu tradition say if same gothra of two persons are treated as brother and sister. Can we...?
Sir,
You are new to the site, welcome.
But please read other posts before making a strong statement like that. There are a lot of sagothram marriages, and your statement make it look like incest. You need to be careful before making damaging statements.
There is a lot written in this site about gothram, and its uselessness, so I am not going to write again.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/rituals-ceremonies-pujas/1647-same-gothram-marriage.html#post14060

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/rituals-ceremonies-pujas/1647-same-gothram-marriage.html#post14129
 

Astrologers give ranking to horoscope matches. Some of them give the percentage marks, some give grades like I class,

II class and III class whereas some others just say to proceed further or not! Couples with III class and low percentage

matching also got married and my dad used to say, 'unakku uLLadhu kidaikkum!'. That is why there were widows and

widowers. One famous astrologer predicted some kind of huge loss after 25 years - wealth or life - after checking the

horoscopes of a boy and girl. It was 'koottu dasai'. The girl was fated to marry him and so she married him. She earned a

lot by her job whereas her hubby was SSO!! After their silver wedding anniversary hubby had a massive heart attack and

left this world! She has a nice house and gets good amount as pension. Life is a sort of peaceful!


Another couple, made for each other and long life as per horoscopes, got married. They were not blessed with children and

hence did not have the habit of saving much for the future!
Now the hubby is 90+ and wife 80 + and near and dear ones give

the financial support!


So, a person can not get ALL the best in life! If so, they are blessed!! :)
 
Dear Sri K. Kumar Ji,

This is as Sri Kunjuppu Ji put once 'just Thinnai Arattu'. Our views and opinions are expressed in a general manner lots of time for the 'benefit' of the general audience :) (not necessarily to address specific points).

I did not at all get any impression that you have said anything that you have to apologize for. You are just bringing in your life experience here, and we are all richer for hearing your posts based on those unique experiences.

Sri tbs Ji, Sir,

Thank you for your kind words.

Srimathi RR Ji,

I agree with your last post.

Regards,
KRS
 
Conditions for Valid Hindu Marriage under Hindu Marriage Act ,1955:

Sec-5:Conditions for a Hindu marriage-A marriage may be solemnized between any two Hindus,if the following conditions are fulfillled,namely-

(i)Neither party has a spouse living at the time of marriage;

(ii)At the time of marriage, neither party,

(a)Is incapable of giving a valid consent to it in consequence of unsoundness of mind; or

(b)Though capable of giving a valid consent, has been suffering from mental disorder of such a kind or to such an extent as to be unfit for marriage and the procreation of children; or

(c)Has been subject to recurrent attacks of insanity;

(iii)The bridegroom has completed the age of [twenty-one years] and the bride, the age of [eighteen years] at the time of marriage;

(iv)The parties are not within the degrees of prohibited relationship unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two;

(v)The parties are not sapindas of each other, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two.
 
Mr. Sarang,
You are very quick to show some "sampradayam" that was followed in 14th century. You try to remain in that century if possible. Sagotram marriage has been discussed in this site so many times. Gotheram has been discussed many times. What population of the worlds 8 billion people know of Gothram? And you think that is important than the happiness of couple? The Tamil custom of marrying cousin (may be maternal), which is considered as incest in North India.

So sometimes it helps to peak out and see the world, and then pronounce your opinion.
 
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