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Re: Horoscope matching

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Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

You said:


Mine was a very unique marriage to a very unique lady. I married way, way up (same with my current consort), and perhaps did not do her life any justice.

I was (and still am) a large part a 'moufussil' boy, having been raised in a small town, in a joint family, with no actual guidance. Was quite uncouth, (perhaps as i am today), when I departed for USA, with a scholarship in hand, to my astonishment.

I acquiesced to my mom's demand to have an arranged marriage - even knew the girl she was looking at (a distant relative), and liked her from a distance.

Then I met my late wife in a very unlikely place/event. That moment, changed everything. I, even now look back in wonderment as to how it happened (by the way, it happened again), and what all I can say is that that was the way it was to be.

She came from a very orthodox family, but, she was such an intellectual, she took every religious practice very seriously (she knew Hebrew and had Bat Mitzvah). She questioned the practices, and came to a point, where my own attraction to Vedanta met that point in equality.

We raised our boys, with exposure to both religions, and I am proud to say, they have found their own individual philosophies, that guide them and their families well.

She never tried to convert me, trying her best to understand my religion and vice versa.

We loved each other at a deep human level and that was enough.

Regards,
KRS

dear krs,

thank you for your post. i always felt, that there is no conversion, in affairs where true love prevails. you dont want the other to deny their background or faith, which is the sum of what they are currently. you accept them as they come, and there is a willingness to work together to make out something new.

i am surprised in your case re mrs KRS being an orthodox jew and moreover the emphasis judaism (like islam) places on the female, as the guardian of the morals and propagating it to the next generation. i know a few orthodox marriage to non jews, and all these, conversions to judaism took place. in most cases, there is no contact with the erstwhile christian (white) family.

i have a close relative married to a reformed jew. though the wedding was jewish, the couple, have no children and both are non practising ie barring a funeral they have no been inside a synagogue these past 20+ years. the hindu side for 5 years would have nothing to do with the couple, but now all is ok.

i personally think, that IR marriages are tough in india. as there is intense pressure to convert, if not from one of the couple (islam or xtian), pressure from the family. we know a friend in dubai married to a mangalorean xtian. he is easy going punjabi and all went well first few years, till the wife's mother came to live with them. forced the wife to insist the husband attend church. i think these have separated now.

IC marriages technically should have no pressure. after all we pray to the same god and go to the same temple. the only issue is food ie if both are veg or non veg no issue. otherwise i think, esp in india, cooking non veg is a big deal.

in canada even among tambram non veg is not an issue. we know tambram couples where husband and children eat meat - the wife cooks it but does not eat it. no big deal is made by anyone. the vathiar comes, sees the barbecue in the background, and moves on to say the prayers. :) good attitude. i think.
 
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......... my son does not even know what horoscope is. and we (mrs K & self) felt that if he found out about this, he would be upset. as a violation of his privacy in exposing such info to strangers. that might not make sense in an indian environment, but here in canada, it does. .....
Yes Sir! I got it now! :)
 
There is always one against the other or rather should we say the other against the one:
Basically there are believers in god and against them non-believers
There are many religions against Hindu/Sanatana Dharma
There are numerous divisions within Hindu Dharma.
There are different customs within these divisions.
Husband and wife have different opinions so also their parents/children.
There are different explanations for the same Vedas/Upanishads.
There are different versions of Ramayana, Mahabharata or Shivpurana.
There are people who believe in astrology and others who call it as humbug.
There are people who are half here and half there.
There are contradictions within ourself. Contradictions, shall we say, can expose the other or improve the same. But in all these contradictions, what is clear. A believer just believes in what he does. But the problem is when the non-believer persists in asking “why you believe?” A vegetarian just eats up what is enough and goes about his work. But a non-veg cannot be just happy eating his fill. He has to ask why the other is not eating non-veg. Internationally many people cry on top of their voice that they are vegetarians. They need not do so. They have as much doubt about themselves as the non-veg. have about themselves. The world has seen many religions coming up one after another, each asking question against the first. Clear cut answers have not been found to any question. There has not been an answer which has not raised a question. This is true about science. Man continues to enjoy or struggle and live on and die out. After a period of time the current thoughts, life styles and those things which were hoisted on pedestals, are all buried irrespective of the fact they were all glorified by group of men. But fundamental things do not change. There has been no discovery that man can live in a condition which is far different and totally opposite to what he has now. Seasons come and seasons go. I cannot believe in anything which does not satisfy me or help me. If aliens come and ask us a question it is one thing. But if they see us all questioning each other they might be perplexed and ricochet back to their base. They might be attracted, if instead of questioning, we keep inquiring ourself. If you do not believe, why you have to ask questions? Want answers? Find out for yourself. If you do, I assure you, you will be happy. Random thoughts in a random world.
 
Yes I can believe in anything I want, except when it affects others.
My belief in eating Vegetarian food only affects me, but if I start believing in Astrology, and force my child's marriage choice, it affects them too.
Similarly if I start believing in Hokus-pokus and force my family and dear ones to suit my fancy, then they too miss out.
So not all beliefs are benin, some are dangerous to yourself and your near and dear ones.

If I believe that if I blow up innocent people, I will get 72 Virgins(who???), then it is dangerous.
 
Hi all,

It appears a large number of people participating in this forum got married the traditional way. Will somebody explain to me the process of marriage as it takes place. I understand the first step is to see whether the two horoscopes match. After both parties agree that there is match, what is process that is followed?

I will appreciate any answers.

Thanks,
K. Kumar
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

There are lots of changes now even if the start is from horoscope matching, 'andrum indrum'!

அன்று (andru):

1. Horoscope matching approved by bride's side first.

2. Horoscope matching approved by groom's side later.

3. 'poNNu pArkkal' arranged at bride's house of course with bajji + sojji + coffee!

4. Knowledge of bride in music (vocal / instrumental) tested whether she likes or not!

5. Groom's party leaves saying, 'We will think over send a telegram for the nichiyathArtham date!'

6. Bride's family await for the telegram and then go for the nichiyathArtham at groom's house with

'paruppu thEngAi' + therattippAl and some more sweets and savories and Veshti + shirt for the groom.

Bride normally does NOT attend the function.

7. Wedding date is fixed and 'lagna paththirikai' written. They differ a little bit for the groom's and bride's side.

(pANigrahaNam vs kannikAdhAnam)

8. Wedding is arranged and bride's family bears the maximum expenses.

இன்று (indru):

1. Horoscope matching approved by groom's side first!(note the change!)

2. Horoscope matching approved by bride's side then. (upper hand)

3. 'poNNu pArkkal' arranged at a restaurant or the bride's house.


4. Bride and groom have personal talk for sometime.

5. Groom's party leaves saying, 'poNNaik kEttu nalla news seekkiram chollungO!'

6. Bride's family approves and asks for the date of 'nichiyathArtham' date
and mandapam address!


7. Wedding date is fixed and 'lagna paththirikai' written. They differ a little bit for the groom and bride's side.


(pANigrahaNam vs kannikAdhAnam) Then b
ride and groom sit / stand together and pose for many photos!


They need a huge album to show to near and dear ones! Video is also taken and CDs prepared!

8. Wedding is arranged and in some cases both the bride's and groom's families share the expenses!
 
dear raji,

you missed a very important step between 6 and 7 for அன்று (andru):...you show your bias lady :(

negotiations. this is where the boys' demand dowry, diamonds, seeru, amount of jewellery, watch, maybe scooter or car, if doctor money to set up a clinic, honeymoon expense.... while the poor girl's father begs..he has 3 or 4 more daughters, he is going to retire and the only son just started earning, the house he bought for retirement and has to mortgage...the wife offers her own diamonds and jewellery for the daughter..and all the nastiness that went along with it.

raji, dont you ever forget those. i suspect that because you have a son, today, though married, you forget the nasty past. sorry to say this dear lady. i am disappointed in you here.
 
dear raji,

you missed a very important step between 6 and 7 for அன்று (andru):...you show your bias lady :( ........
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

I am not biased. It is understood when the groom's party says, 'We will
think over send a telegram for the

nichiyathArtham date!'

When my mom told about the 'seer' for us - four daughters, the following were demanded specifically:

the first sambandhi asked for full bhakshaNam (101 in each of 5 varieties), next asked for double row gold

chain, the third asked for silver kudam (but mom refused) and the fourth asked for 6 jOdi gold bangles!!
So, I guess there was not much debate over the seer items in all the four weddings. :peace:
 
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

I am not biased. It is understood when the groom's party says, 'We will
think over send a telegram for the

nichiyathArtham date!'

When my mom told about the 'seer' for us - four daughters, the following were demanded specifically:

the first sambandhi asked for full bhakshaNam (101 in each of 5 varieties), next asked for double row gold

chain, the third asked for silver kudam (but mom refused) and the fourth asked for 6 jOdi gold bangles!!
So, I guess there was not much debate over the seer items in all the four weddings. :peace:

sorry raji,

to mention 'seer items' is glossing over a nasty interlude. the negotiations were the worst part of any marriage arrangement.

i have seen as a family of poverty, to see 3 girls married, and we used shiver. this was my girl cousins, orphaned, and between their uncle (my dad) and one responsible brother, (the other a vagrant useless fellow) - how to manage expecatations.

in all the cases of those times, the boy's side always thought the heaven of their boys.

same happened to my aunt, except grandfather was able to afford it through borrow and influence. the boy's side had the upper hand andused ruthlesslessly.

which is why, the tables turned now, boy's parents still remembering the 'good old days' are so frustrated angry. you know this to be true raji.

the lower the economic status, the meaner the demands went. so disgusting...

doctor's daughters got decent in laws per your experience. the lrest of the crowd were not so lucky.
 
Ms Raji Ram,

I am somewhat familiar with the அன்று list. I wanted more information on the இன்று process. Thanks for giving me the information.

Now I have a question. In the இன்று list for point 4, how much time do the prospective bride and the prospective bridegroom get to talk? Is it a one time opportunity or do they get to talk many times before the decision is made?

I apologize if this sounds silly, but unfortunately I didn't go through this process, and none of the marriages in my close family followed this process. Most of them were traditional but of the "love" kind. So, no question of horoscope matching or பெண் பார்க்கல். It was a mix of Tambrams, North Indians, Telugus, IC/IR (it seems I was their source of inspiration) and some white.

So bear with me.

K. Kumar
 
Dear Kumar Ji,

Out here where I stay among Non Brahmins now the the trend for arranged marriage is to view the bride and groom by families meeting in a temple.

Even when my traditional NB friends got arranged marriage proposals they opted to meet in temple rather than viewing at home.

For me I preferred to meet all the prospectives Mapillais at my home with family cos I do not like the idea of a girl leaving her house with family to see a guy and his family in temple.

I still prefer Mappillais coming to girls house to view cos a man needs to make effort to get a girl.

After all even in ancient days girls had svayamvarams and guys had to come hoping to get her to choose him.
 
Ms Raji Ram,

I am somewhat familiar with the அன்று list. I wanted more information on the இன்று process. Thanks for giving me the information.

Now I have a question. In the இன்று list for point 4, how much time do the prospective bride and the prospective bridegroom get to talk? Is it a one time opportunity or do they get to talk many times before the decision is made?

I apologize if this sounds silly, but unfortunately I didn't go through this process, and none of the marriages in my close family followed this process. Most of them were traditional but of the "love" kind. So, no question of horoscope matching or பெண் பார்க்கல். It was a mix of Tambrams, North Indians, Telugus, IC/IR (it seems I was their source of inspiration) and some white.

So bear with me.

K. Kumar
hi kumar,

இன்று list face book /skype must....dating allowed now a days....especially gals are not ready to marry without proper dating

now days...pvt/IT job must....govt job not preferable...

அன்று ,,,,relatives are upper hand in some cases....like mama/periappa are deciding factors......govt /bank job preferable...
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

It depends on the individual. We had short listed two girls - one in Kerala (KLB) and one in Bangalore (Tambram) when

my son visited us in 2005. Ram and I accompanied him to see the two girls in their respective homes. He talked to each

of them for about ten minutes. After both interviews were over, he okayed the second girl who was willing to write GRE

and TOEFL and appeared very active! He told me that Samurai warriors decide their next move in seven seconds and

long long chats will never help! But some boys and girls wish to chat a few times, eat out, go for a movie and so on before

deciding! I shall share a funny incident here. I already wrote once in our forum. One girl went out with a prospective groom

in Sing. Chennai and on the way asked for a coca cola. This guy could not find one and bought another brand. On their return,

girl refused to accept him because he did NOT get the brand she wanted and she can not adjust to him for ever! :thumb:
 
This is very interesting. So when do the couple get to discuss their outlook, their goals in life, their religiousness, views about children and other mundane stuff that can become a serious irritant after marriage. My wife and I had discussed almost everything under the sun before we decided to get married, because we had very similar ideas. But it was over many months. In spite of all the similarities, when we got married we still had to go through lot of adjustments before really settling down.

Vow, hats off to the boys and girls who make up their mind in such a short time. I don't think I would have fared well under these circumstances.

Thanks to all the members who responded. Now I have some idea what goes on in the marriage arena.

K. Kumar
 

Dear Kumar Sir,

If you discuss about everything under the sun before deciding to get married,

will you have anything left to talk about after the wedding? Just kidding! :D
 
No, we really didn't have much to talk about after the wedding. We had other things to keep us occupied :becky:

K. Kumar
 
Vow, hats off to the boys and girls who make up their mind in such a short time. I don't think I would have fared well under these circumstances.

Dear Kumar ji,

It is possible to make decisions in a short while...there is something called attraction.

This element is even present in an arranged marriage..it is this attraction that makes us agree and like a guy or girl.

BTW same logic also applies when people fall in love...choosing a boyfriend can take less than 5 minutes.

It is the attraction at first sight that makes a person get to know another person.


I remember once a dentist in the hospital I worked before was shocked to know that I had an arranged marriage cos she thought I was kind of "modern".

She told me she had a love marriage and knew her fellow dentist husband for 7 years before they decided to get married.

So she asked me in a semi mocking manner "you look so modern and how did you decide to marry a person by arranged marriage? I could have never have done that?"

I told her "I liked my husband on the spot and I guess he was impressive enough for me to decide then and there itself instead of taking 7 years!"

Frankly speaking there is really nothing much to know about anyone actually...we only know a person well when we start staying with them..so it does not make a difference if it was love or arranged marriage...it is compatibility after marriage that really counts..cos things can change and that no astrologer will be able to predict.
 
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Dear Kumar Sir,

If you discuss about everything under the sun before deciding to get married,

will you have anything left to talk about after the wedding? Just kidding! :D
hi RR madam,

nobody really talk abt after the wedding...just kidding....nice song....nice words....பொருத்தம் உடலில் வேண்டும்....புரிந்தவன்

துணையாக வேண்டும்....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4VxmTuaztQ
 
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Live webcast to follow soon!

Dear Kumar Sir,

There are lots of changes now even if the start is from horoscope matching, 'andrum indrum'!

அன்று (andru):

1. Horoscope matching approved by bride's side first.

2. Horoscope matching approved by groom's side later.

3. 'poNNu pArkkal' arranged at bride's house of course with bajji + sojji + coffee!

4. Knowledge of bride in music (vocal / instrumental) tested whether she likes or not!

5. Groom's party leaves saying, 'We will think over send a telegram for the nichiyathArtham date!'

6. Bride's family await for the telegram and then go for the nichiyathArtham at groom's house with

'paruppu thEngAi' + therattippAl and some more sweets and savories and Veshti + shirt for the groom.

Bride normally does NOT attend the function.

7. Wedding date is fixed and 'lagna paththirikai' written. They differ a little bit for the groom's and bride's side.

(pANigrahaNam vs kannikAdhAnam)

8. Wedding is arranged and bride's family bears the maximum expenses.

இன்று (indru):

1. Horoscope matching approved by groom's side first!(note the change!)

2. Horoscope matching approved by bride's side then. (upper hand)

3. 'poNNu pArkkal' arranged at a restaurant or the bride's house.


4. Bride and groom have personal talk for sometime.

5. Groom's party leaves saying, 'poNNaik kEttu nalla news seekkiram chollungO!'

6. Bride's family approves and asks for the date of 'nichiyathArtham' date
and mandapam address!


7. Wedding date is fixed and 'lagna paththirikai' written. They differ a little bit for the groom and bride's side.


(pANigrahaNam vs kannikAdhAnam) Then b
ride and groom sit / stand together and pose for many photos!


They need a huge album to show to near and dear ones! Video is also taken and CDs prepared!

8. Wedding is arranged and in some cases both the bride's and groom's families share the expenses!
 
No, we really didn't have much to talk about after the wedding. We had other things to keep us occupied :becky:
Yes Sir!! So says ThiruvaLLuvar:

கண்ணொடு கண்ணிணை நோக்கொக்கின் வாய்ச்சொற்கள்
என்ன பயனும் இல.
 
dear kumar,

mine was a little more interesting, based on your viewpoint.

i had decided to marry, and my mother had picked this girl now mrs K for me. for 2 years, my sister and cousins developed a relationship with her, dropping at her place of work, and going out together. i came i saw i said yes, much to my mother's surprise, as i had not hinted anything in the letters for 2 years.

the girl and family came to visit us, and i, jetlagged fell asleep while we were chatting privately, because, i was tired, and tongue tied. i guess she was the same, though she blames me even now.

next day, to make up, i picked her up after work in my cousin's mobike and went to savera, where i had tiffin, and she had only an orange juice (very shy to ask me more). then outside the bike went phut, and i pulled the bike and we walked to my aunt's house 2 miles away. she took an auto home after that, and collapsed out of tiredness and hunger, much to her parents' worry that she was 'molested' :). my side blamed me for not feeding her, while i ate. my point was that i asked her what she wanted..but people accepted her reasoning that a lady does not go about ordering a whole feast on a first date :)

the only thing she asked me was she liked to continue to work when she came to canada. basically i had no issues with that or anything else she wanted. we decided on 4 kids but settled with 3 due to circumstances. she learned car driving within the month after arrival in toronto, had a slew of credit cards in her name, and i retired from cooking indian food, as i cannot match her quality.

we learned to adjust. but since both come from very similar pattar middle class same type of cooking values and similar convent schools we found that we did not need to talk much as our thoughts regarding spending saving babies work etc were the same. nowadays, after 34 years, we even think alike, which is scary, as there is no privacy of the mind :).

the only thing left, is we havent started looking like each other. she is still pretty and can turn heads. yours truly is short fat bald. enough said :) in today's market i would not have been able to quallify for a tambram bride. would have settled for any bride, and knowing my mom, she would have found one, tambram or not. she was a very practical goal oriented lady, with an keen and 100% accurate judge of human character, which was one reason, when she pointed to mrs K and told me, that she (mrs K) would be 'good' for me. which she has been.

i dont know if anyone told mrs K that i would be good for her. and i havent asked :)
 
Dear Kumar ji,

It is possible to make decisions in a short while...there is something called attraction.

This element is even present in an arranged marriage..it is this attraction that makes us agree and like a guy or girl.

BTW same logic also applies when people fall in love...choosing a boyfriend can take less than 5 minutes.

It is the attraction at first sight that makes a person get to know another person.


I remember once a dentist in the hospital I worked before was shocked to know that I had an arranged marriage cos she thought I was kind of "modern".

She told me she had a love marriage and knew her fellow dentist husband for 7 years before they decided to get married.

So she asked me in a semi mocking manner "you look so modern and how did you decide to marry a person by arranged marriage? I could have never have done that?"

I told her "I liked my husband on the spot and I guess he was impressive enough for me to decide then and there itself instead of taking 7 years!"

Frankly speaking there is really nothing much to know about anyone actually...we only know a person well when we start staying with them..so it does not make a difference if it was love or arranged marriage...it is compatibility after marriage that really counts..cos things can change and that no astrologer will be able to predict.

Ms Renuka,

I agree that it is the attraction that makes you even talk to the other person. That is how I met my wife. But my amazement was that a decision like sharing the rest of your entire life can be made in such a short meeting. I definitely would be so tongue tied and would be hard pressed to talk anything resembling a serious talk. Hence the question. Even with my wife, it took more than 6 months before we talked about marriage and related stuff let alone getting married. It took several more months to reach that stage. We were very good friends and we still are.

At least from your postings you appear to be "modern ". You would fit my definition of a "புதுமை பெண் ":)

K. Kumar
 
Based on the responses I understand now, why there was such big noise about girls making unreasonable demands. I guess the time allocated for the meeting of the boys and girls wouldn't be sufficient to discuss all these intricate matters. So girls are stating these in the matrimonial ads, and I guess this does not go well with the boys' side.

Do you guys know of cases where the boy and girl have decided not to marry after several meetings?

K. Kumar
 
Mr Kunjuppu,

The narration was definitely interesting. Let me give you my experience that might be interesting to you.

My wife and I used to work in the same office. Everyone in the work group would eat lunch together and discuss various topics. During these sessions we found we shared similar views on many things. In most of these discussions we would land up on the same side invariably. So we became very good friends. We would visit each others family and became good friends with the families as well. Of course my family new she was a Kerala Syrian Christian and they new I was an Iyer. Topics discussed during these discussions would include politics, morality, religion, marriage, Indian/Western culture, language, food/eating habits, vegetarianism etc. etc.

At that time in her house she was being pressured to get married and she kept telling them No. Apparently this was going on for several years. Similarly in my house my father was soliciting and screening horoscopes by the hundreds and rejecting them on the grounds of them not matching.
We used to laugh about this is in the group during lunch. Once when we had gone to a movie and were returning home (being chivalrous I used to drop her home) we jokingly said may be we should release the pressure and tension at home by getting married to each other. This seed of an idea then grew big and we seriously started considering it. Because we had discussed lot of stuff regarding marriages in the group we knew where each other stood on various issues. In later meetings (equivalent to Hero and Heroine running around the trees in movies of those times singing songs)
we developed this idea further and decided it has merits. But we knew exactly what we would face from the society as an inter-religious couple in mid 70s and made plans on how to resolve issues that will come up.

Then we broke the news to both the families. As you can imagine, all hell broke loose. Her family didn't talk to her for days and my father literally threw me out of the house. My mother said she knew this was coming and said she would personally kill me if I abandoned this girl after making all these plans. Both families came around after a few days but laid down a few conditions. Her family said she had to get married in a church, and my father said we have to follow the Iyer rituals. The government had its say also by insisting that we have to be registered under the special marriages act since it was an inter-religious marriage.

We went through all three requirements and for fun we used to tell everyone this marriage is very solid because we got married three times. There were many people in relative circle who gave this marriage a maximum time of 2 years. Well after 35 years it is still going strong. We took care of aging parents (both sides), supported both our siblings at the time of their need.

So you would understand where I am coming from when I ask my questions because in my case the decision to marry was made after we had discussed all these issues including children before marrying. If you marry after a few minutes/hours discussion and if you can't see eye to eye later, then what happens?

Sorry for the extra long post.

K. Kumar
 
......... If you marry after a few minutes/hours discussion and if you can't see eye to eye later, then what happens?...
Dear Kumar Sir,

A successful wedded life needs a give and take attitude throughout life. That is why couples who do NOT see

eye to eye always, also lead a happy life together - adjusting to each other! :)
 
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