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Is the Community digging its own grave

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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Renuka,

I agree it is a well meant advice. When a problem is analyzed, all may not agree on the cause. It is good that the problem is analyzed but till a consensus emerges on the cause, the discussion will contain disagreements and differing points of view.


Dear Sravna,

Causes are divided into 2 category

1)Nimitta

2)Upadana

I am sure you are familiar with this 2 classifications.

In cases of Glanir(decline) of same caste marriages of the TB kind no one can wait for anyone to re establish "Dharma" on Yada Yada basis.


Ok here the Nimitta Karana is parents/society/environment/peer pressure.

Upadana Karana is the mind of the person which is shaped by the Nimmita Karana.

So there you go..try to identify problems in each category and try to look for a practical solution.
 

sravna

Well-known member
I have had same questions, but I never get an answer. Good luck.
Hindu philosophy basically says that the conquest of the six inner enemies such as lust, anger etc. is the way to freedom from the bondage of the physical world. Our cultural values are drawn from this fundamental premise and represent the timeless. So you really do not need to preserve the values because their truth will be evident at whatever time you use them and after how long you use them. It is up to you to recognize that and follow them for your own spiritual upliftment.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
1. Can anyone enumerate the key qualities of the culture and key traditional values that need to be preserved?
2. What does preservation mean?
3. Why preserve?

1. All that is good in the culture and values need to be preserved. What is good means what is universally accepted as good.

2. Preservation involves teaching them to tne next generation, children etc., so that these good aspects of culture and good values do not become extinct. They need to be preserved because they are good.

3. If you do not preserve, all the effort(over centuries) and internalization that went into acquiring and retaining these good aspects of culture and values will go waste. What is going to replace them may be or may not be good. Just an example:

Our culture glorifies "நும்முன் பிறந்தது நுவ்வையாகும்" kind of discipline even in matters controlled by ductless glands and hormones whereas not asking a boyfriend after an outing on dating(with a lot of kissing and petting thrown in) to stay back for the night is considered bad etiquette in courtship in another culture. Of course the mother in that culture/society is bothered about other consequences and carefully reminds the girl about taking a condom even before she goes on the outing.

In this, what is good value and what is bad value varies according to cultures (கால தேச வர்த்தமானங்களுக்கு ஏற்றவாறு). Let me hasten to add I am not making any value judgment here as to what is good and what is bad in this. But what is desirable and what is not is determined by the society in which we live.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Our culture glorifies "நும்முன் பிறந்தது நுவ்வையாகும்" kind of discipline even in matters controlled by ductless glands and hormones whereas not asking a boyfriend after an outing on dating(with a lot of kissing and petting thrown in) to stay back for the night is considered bad etiquette in courtship in another culture.

Dear Sir,

Even in other cultures..asking a boyfriend to stay back for the night after a first date is considered bad behavior.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Hindu philosophy basically says that the conquest of the six inner enemies such as lust, anger etc. is the way to freedom from the bondage of the physical world. Our cultural values are drawn from this fundamental premise and represent the timeless. So you really do not need to preserve the values because their truth will be evident at whatever time you use them and after how long you use them. It is up to you to recognize that and follow them for your own spiritual upliftment.

Circular answers, So your values (as of the present) can be preserved, i.e. followed by others, as opposed to my values. It is all very nebulous. Just like Manusmrithi codified the values of his days, can you codify yours today? it will be obsolete the day it is written.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Hindu philosophy basically says that the conquest of the six inner enemies such as lust, anger etc. is the way to freedom from the bondage of the physical world. Our cultural values are drawn from this fundamental premise and represent the timeless. So you really do not need to preserve the values because their truth will be evident at whatever time you use them and after how long you use them. It is up to you to recognize that and follow them for your own spiritual upliftment.


Dear Sravna,

We have to be practical....most Hindus might not even be able to understand the spirituality you are talking about here.
In fact many will know about Vasthu Shastra and Astrology better than Spirituality.

To most Hindus...God is Santa Claus..the Kalpa Taru and prayers are made in a transaction mode.

Hardly anyone wants out of the Ocean of Sansar.

Everyone is like Mangatha Ajit Kumar "Gimme More Gimme More"

Sravna..sometimes we need to wake up to reality and face the fact that the Arishad Vargas of Man.... Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Mada,Moha and Matsarya are the "Famous" 6 that rule almost everyone in varying proportions.

Spiritual upliftment has always been a distant dream even for those who attempt it... after all didn't Lord Krishna say "Among the thousands that strive for perfection only one perchance knows Me in reality".
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri Prasad, What I am saying is that the values will never become extinct . The same values will invariably be revived and practiced whenever people see the shallowness of the existing values and want inner peace. Consider someone who has conquered the emotions . How would he behave and what are the values we can infer from his behavior? Those are exactly the values I am talking about.
 
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sangom

Well-known member
Dear Shri Sangom,

According to you: Tamil brahmin girls rightly believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance
What I said : Tamil brahmin girls erroneously believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance.

Actually the situation is more complex than it seems to from my above statement but in my view gives an idea about the reality.

Hindu philosophy basically says that the conquest of the six inner enemies such as lust, anger etc. is the way to freedom from the bondage of the physical world. Our cultural values are drawn from this fundamental premise and represent the timeless. So you really do not need to preserve the values because their truth will be evident at whatever time you use them and after how long you use them. It is up to you to recognize that and follow them for your own spiritual upliftment.

I said Tamil brahmin girls believe, or have come to regard - and the issue is rather not hindu beliefs, but more specifically, the tabra beliefs. There is no question whatsoever of rightly or wrongly, when it comes to matters of belief. It is apparent now that you believe that hindu beliefs are with substance and so, if any girl believes that the hindu belief system is without any substance, then that girl must be erroneously believing. This sort of argument will lead no one anywhere. What needs to be done is to get a first hand idea and then try to find out whether such a belief (rightly, or wrongly) is there and what are the causes thereof.

My limited interaction with some of the employed girls and one or two who have married NB men according to their own selection, makes me conclude that these girls who perhaps have original, out-of-the box, problem-solving. etc., kind of thinking feel that they are mostly irrelevant vis-a-vis the tabra belief system. A few examples put forward are as under:—


  • Why are women prohibited from doing the various vaideeka karmas, including srAddhams for her parents?
  • Why should women be considered "impure" during menstruation, and why even religious functions like sraaddham are stopped because the wife has her monthly periods, although her role is just holding the grass - a mockery of her individuality, independence and intelligence?
  • Why are gender roles so accurately marked out as far as the tabra religious side is concerned whereas, in the secular or real world aspects, girls/women are even encouraged to study, qualify and earn money just in competition to menfolk? Is this not a double standard of sorts?
  • In what way are the brahmins superior or more cultured than all the rest of the country's population? Have we any scientific evidence in support of this? If a tabra girl loves a NB boy who is a crorepati, why is the community accepting it as if some honour is coming, whereas if the NB boy is a clerk or junior officer, so much of objections are made?
  • Why, on the above lines, when sons & daughters of the upper crust Tabras marry outside brahmin caste and even outside hindu religion, these rich people are not ostracized by brahmins including the vaideekans and the mutts like Kanchi, Sringeri etc? Is it not proof sufficient that out tabra society only worships mammon, and all the rest of this so-called religious blah blah is just that . . . mere blah, blah?
  • Why should I/we not therefore choose a boy of our liking either outside the brahmin caste or hindu religion and how can you object to this when the caste's double standards is there for everyone to see?

It is for our tabra society/community, including our revered Mutts, Matadhipathis, etc., to give a fitting answer to such doubts instead of simply saying that the girls erroneously believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance.

I personally feel that the tabra community has no convincing answers to these and many other equally valid doubts, about our hypocritical belief system, and hence, we have to patiently bear with the rebellion which these girls seem to be making but without saying so. The foolishness of the tabra community consists in the fact that this community has not yet seen these IC and IR marriages as signs of an internal rebellion against this community itself and its misplaced value systems and the members here are trying to treat the patient without knowing how to make proper diagnosis.
 

Anand Manohar

New member
Dear All

Anyone know what became of MK - Manohar Kumar ? - seemed like an interesting person.

I might have missed it - hope the ladies didn't do some 'research' on him and shoo him away !

I suspect VR's hand in his going underground !

Yay Yem
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna, We have to be practical....most Hindus might not even be able to understand the spirituality you are talking about here. In fact many will know about Vasthu Shastra and Astrology better than Spirituality. To most Hindus...God is Santa Claus..the Kalpa Taru and prayers are made in a transaction mode. Hardly anyone wants out of the Ocean of Sansar. Everyone is like Mangatha Ajit Kumar "Gimme More Gimme More" Sravna..sometimes we need to wake up to reality and face the fact that the Arishad Vargas of Man.... Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Mada,Moha and Matsarya are the "Famous" 6 that rule almost everyone in varying proportions. Spiritual upliftment has always been a distant dream even for those who attempt it... after all didn't Lord Krishna say "Among the thousands that strive for perfection only one perchance knows Me in reality".
Dear Renuka, I understand what you say would seem to be true because all these arguments for spiritual upliftment and so on will be completely lost on those who are steeped in totally contrary values. But voices like mine and those of like minded people I think do serve a purpose. I believe that each and every experience that a person goes through good or bad ,in any birth and in any yuga will get imprinted on the soul which will definitely benefit from all such experiences.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna, We have to be practical....most Hindus might not even be able to understand the spirituality you are talking about here. In fact many will know about Vasthu Shastra and Astrology better than Spirituality. To most Hindus...God is Santa Claus..the Kalpa Taru and prayers are made in a transaction mode. Hardly anyone wants out of the Ocean of Sansar. Everyone is like Mangatha Ajit Kumar "Gimme More Gimme More" Sravna..sometimes we need to wake up to reality and face the fact that the Arishad Vargas of Man.... Kama, Krodha, Lobha,Mada,Moha and Matsarya are the "Famous" 6 that rule almost everyone in varying proportions. Spiritual upliftment has always been a distant dream even for those who attempt it... after all didn't Lord Krishna say "Among the thousands that strive for perfection only one perchance knows Me in reality".
Dear Renuka, I understand what you say would seem to be true because all these arguments for spiritual upliftment and so on will be completely lost on those who are steeped in totally contrary beliefs. But voices like mine and those of like minded people I think do serve a purpose. I believe that each and every experience that a person goes through good or bad ,in any birth and in any yuga will get imprinted on the soul which will definitely benefit from all such experiences.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Shri sangom, I was only pointing out the difference between our views which you had asked for regarding the beliefs of the tamil brahmin girls. Whereas you endorse their beliefs I do not and that is the difference between our views. You have raised specific questions in your post and there may be a number of others that need to be answered. What I suggest is to first agree on the underlying reason(s) for all these and see if all the queries and possibly others that are raised could be answered by answering them.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Sir,

Even in other cultures..asking a boyfriend to stay back for the night after a first date is considered bad behavior.

Dear Renuka Madam,

"First date" are the key words here in your post. Please read my post again.
 
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Asirvadam

New member
Since time immemorial, our minds have been conditioned and programmed such that a man or woman shall marry only within one's religion, caste etc.

A woman and a man meet each other, fall in love and they marry. If they happen to be from different so-called-religion or so-called-caste it generates a sensation. IC/IR marriages are not uncommon yet why do they sensationalize?

For two people to marry each other the minimum requirement is one should be Man/Male and the other should be Woman/Female. For a successful marriage they need to love each other. Is anything else mandatory?

We are living in the 21st Century.

My humble request to my beloved brahmin brothers and sisters in this forum is to come out of your shells, cocoons and mingle with others. Please change your perception.

Please do not perceive any marriage as IC or IR. Marriage is a marriage between 2 souls, one a woman and the other a man, who love each other. It is not between a Hindu and Christian, Muslim and Hindu, low caste and high caste.

Love transcends Religion, Caste, Color, Ethnicity, Race etc etc.
 

amala

Well-known member
They are mostly beautiful...Shruti Hassan..product of a TB Father and Nortie Non Brahmin Mother..what a beauty and a talented..intelligent girl too.Vivek Oberoi..product of a Nortie NB Father and a TB mother..a handsome young man with a heart of gold..helped out lots in TN during the Tsunami.
Shruti-Hassan-Gabbar-Singh-Hot-Photos-18.jpg
vivek-oberoi-wallpapers-.jpg
Omg don't let any Maharashtrians hear you calling them "norties". There is no love lost between them! Also Shruti actually had her nortie(sic) mum's nose and she did rhinoplasty to get a pretty nose and now shes pretty but its after surgery. I always thought she was pretty anyway, apparently neither she nor Bollywood did. So there you go.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear All

Anyone know what became of MK - Manohar Kumar ? - seemed like an interesting person.

I might have missed it - hope the ladies didn't do some 'research' on him and shoo him away !

I suspect VR's hand in his going underground !

Yay Yem

AMji you have death wish?
People come and go, it is a free site.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear Mr.Sangom,

I refer post #61 of you:

While I too have interacted with IC married Brahmin girls who are intelligent, bold etc., I have not come across a single case where the girls trashed the entire Brahmin culture in the way your samples have done. They expressed their decision to marry outside the caste as:

1. I was swept off my feet. I do not know what happened to me.

2. We had become so intimate that we could not live without each other.

3. My family has been living in the midst of people belonging to this caste and I did not have the opportunity to move with any one else. They are good people. There is no difference between our culture and their culture. They too are vegetarians.

4. I was in serious trouble and he helped me out. He was the only one who took lot of pains to help me.

5. I worked as an article clerk doing my CA with a Chartered Accountant’s firm and he too was there doing the same. We had opportunities to stay out together for days together. That helped us understand each other well.

And many more such shallow reasons. Some of them regret their dicision too.

You have also said:

It is for our tabra society/community, including our revered Mutts, Matadhipathis, etc., to give a fitting answer to such doubts instead of simply saying that the girls erroneously believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance.
I personally feel that the tabra community has no convincing answers to these and many other equally valid doubts, about our hypocritical belief system, and hence, we have to patiently bear with the rebellion which these girls seem to be making but without saying so. The foolishness of the tabra community consists in the fact that this community has not yet seen these IC and IR marriages as signs of an internal rebellion against this community itself and its misplaced value systems and the members here are trying to treat the patient without knowing how to make proper diagnosis.

I am delving into the archives of this forum. I find many people have contributed answers to these points earlier. I will get back soon with my answer to your bullet points. Thanks.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Vaagmiji,
I do not know your life experiences, but to make a comment like "shallow reasons" is not understanding the problem at all. You think all arranged marriages past and present did not have regrets.

There are many TB boys living with their parents value system and they are single. Those who have adapted with the modern values are probably happily married.

If TB girls are getting the respect and courted by a boy (TB, NB, or else), and she has to put up with TB boys without a clue, who should they choose as life partner? Or you think they should have listened to their parents and suffer for the rest of their life? I guess girls have evolved and parents are stuck in the past.
 

Anand Manohar

New member
Prasad Garu

Death Wish? - No way. Just that he seems to have vanished. Was wondering if any 'research'
was done on him, and maybe I missed it. That's all.

Yes, I've been to some weird places and done lots of crazy things, yes a bit of a dope, but never wished
ill of or for anybody.

Ok, this might sound crazy to many - I've gone back to fasting during Ramaadan out of my own
volition, just for the heck of it - no religious / ritualistic tags attached. I skipped the Roza last three years.

Yay Yem
 
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