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Is the Community digging its own grave

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vgane

Well-known member
A very famous residential tower in T.Nagar housing 32 flats...Was constructed 2 decades back..90% of residents of this tower are Tambrahms.

8 Brahmin girls & boys got married from this Tower in the last 5-6 years...Only 3 are from the community..Rest are inter caste...

Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu

In my own family of relatives out of 10 marriages in last 10 years 4 are inter caste/ Inter religion..If I consider my brother in law's family out of 5 marriages 4 are IC/IR and one is with Telugu brahmin

What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

Am I hurt by this...Yes, definitely as I was brought up in a traditional Brahminical way..I cannot forget my cultural moorings..Cannot think of this being good for our society which is already facing lots of challenges in the modern world

I have attempted to evaluate using simple mathematics the Tambrahm population 60 years from now if this situation continues...
From current population levels we will reduce drastically to a few lacs in next 50 years...by next 80 years it will be just a lac...

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

The above is not an accurate prediction...May be one can refine it with more accurate assumptions

View attachment Population Trend.bmp
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?



View attachment 2903

Dear Sir,

Fear not..no soul in this world can become extinct....let me reassure you with a verse from the Gita:

Text 20
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato ’yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
Translation
For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
 

auh

New member
What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

I think this phenomenon is also like the big bang (it is only my speculation here), now expanding its horizons, and perhaps when the limitless limit has been reached, it might contract.

But, seriously, does this not reflect the desire of the majority?

We have to plod along... rather drift along like leaves in the wind.
 

sangom

Well-known member
A very famous residential tower in T.Nagar housing 32 flats...Was constructed 2 decades back..90% of residents of this tower are Tambrahms.

8 Brahmin girls & boys got married from this Tower in the last 5-6 years...Only 3 are from the community..Rest are inter caste...

Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu

In my own family of relatives out of 10 marriages in last 10 years 4 are inter caste/ Inter religion..If I consider my brother in law's family out of 5 marriages 4 are IC/IR and one is with Telugu brahmin

What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

Am I hurt by this...Yes, definitely as I was brought up in a traditional Brahminical way..I cannot forget my cultural moorings..Cannot think of this being good for our society which is already facing lots of challenges in the modern world

I have attempted to evaluate using simple mathematics the Tambrahm population 60 years from now if this situation continues...
From current population levels we will reduce drastically to a few lacs in next 50 years...by next 80 years it will be just a lac...

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

The above is not an accurate prediction...May be one can refine it with more accurate assumptions

View attachment 2903

Dear Shri Gane,

I can understand your anguish, myself being a 73 years old tabra.

But the happenings in one high-rise tower in T. Nagar need not and may not, reflect the real trend and rates of social change taking place in our tabra community as a whole, imho. Secondly, I have been observing that even though some of our boys and a larger percentage of our (tabra) girls tend to marry outside our caste, religion, etc., nowadays, it so happens that when the first flush of all those gloriously viewed love, kaadal, etc., wane off, there is always an attempt to reinstall the off-springs born out of such IC/IR wedlock back into the tabra fold itself wherever such a step is possible. For example, boys born to brahmin - non brahmin marriages are almost invariably given the upanayana samskaara (even though I & many others of the old generation still wonder how, if the father is NB, the NB father is placed in such a vaideeki samskaara, who gives the gaayatree upadesa to the boy, etc.).

Even in a few cases of tabra girls who married christian boys, the children have been given hindu names and, most probably, these boys will also be given upanayanam and made into tabras when the time comes.

All these developments show, or at least it seems to me so, that the label "brahmin" has still some undefined and mysterious attraction.

Hence, after some decades we may have more "tamil brahmins" than your projected numbers, on this earth, but they may not hold even the slightest resemblance to any one of us in terms of their belief system, daily routine, knowledge of the brahmanical scriptures, cultural ethos, etc. But, looking back honestly, don't most of us tabras of today stand in the same position vis-a-vis our forefathers of, say, 7 or 8 generations ago?

Hence let us not lose our hope. What is required is that our beliefs and culture change to suit the changing needs of the times.
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
<this is the final warning. stop behaving like a pampered kid. anymore posts like this and your account will be banned. - Praveen>
 
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Anand Manohar

New member
Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 3.

You seem to have taken the literal meaning and done some word splitting. "Mental Migration" is a
process that takes place in every evolving society. The subject deals specifically with ethno-culturally
enclosed societies and issues of diaspora communities wherein "Participation Therapies" have been recommended
to address the issues concerned. It is a 'process' - pretty abstract.

That is like the word 'Slumdog' that conveys quite a contrary meaning if split.

Seclusions & Inclusions form part of the Participation Therapy - eg., the discarding of racial superiority
or the abolishing of slave trade can be attributed to "Mental Migration".

As Sangom says, one street / residential complex / one family might be too small a specimen to observe
and make a generalization out of. But I think Ravi has utilized the correct term and in the correct context.

Yay Yem
 

sravna

Well-known member
What is actually happening in today's world is that importance of culture is diminishing and only that which is in consonance with current thinking is becoming acceptable. Brahmins who are seen as the last bastions of Indian culture, are beginning to witness rebellion by their own young generation.

As someone who has learnt to appreciate the profundity in our values, I am indeed saddened as Shri.Vgane is by all these developments. I do not intend to rake up a sensitive issue but suffice to say that I agree with the OP.
 

Anand Manohar

New member
Aw, Come on Ravi,

Nobody really cares whether you wear a komanam or not. I don't, and that fact shouldn't bother any of the ladies.

Now, let's get a move-on.

Yay Yem
 

auh

New member
I do not think that the OP expresses concern over a single building being the case in study. This line is the real thrust of the post
Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu
And actually, this is a reality in every brahmin stronghold. Whatever be the reasons, the ratio of IC/IR seems to be increasing.

As to where it would lead, we can, at best, speculate.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
While no one can predict the future, based on current trends, I tend to agree with OP re the conclusions, though not the angst.

Many of us have many many reasons, why we have discarded many of the handmedown rituals or values, and each has his or her own reasons. I can list a few here, which I see as relevant to me. Some may have the same reasons, and some may have others.

- Exclusively casteist and I don’t mean it in a negative way. I would like to practice a version of Hinduism, which is universal practice to all our brethren. We can have plurality of practices, but not exclusivity.
- Irrelevance of many rituals
- Cumbersomeness of rituals
- Loneliness of rituals; prefer to attend group bhajans or discourses or group prayers regularly than sit alone at home
- Acute sense of discomfort with certain texts like purusha shukta, which appears, to me atleast, put Brahmins as ‘superior’; unable to accept that
- Superstitious adherence to horoscope and such, inspite of a high failure rate

Organized education of our values for Hindus as a whole including classes for the children at various ages and levels, i think, is one good way to build a sold foundation of our faith. it is something that we can learn from abrahamic religions. again, this too, is a personal opinion.

I have discarded only stuff that I cannot accept from a moral viewpoint mostly. Stuff I like are our bhajans, temples, my palghat cuisine, and I would imagine, even a century from now, all of these would exist, though the future of palghat cuisine may be questioned, considered the far and wide diaspora, and the internationalization of food habits (for even vegetarians).

The very ‘values’ that some people regret passing, including inter caste marriages, I welcome. I would also welcome new blood into our community, and our willingness to accept IR/IC marriages, and educate our children, and encourage them, to bring up their progeny in the best of our Hindu faith, sans the narrowness of casteism. Since we don’t do this, the children seek asylum in other faiths, which I think is a shame.

Caste, while playing a deciding role in India, is apparently a loose fitting cloth, cast away without any effort, for the 2nd generation Indian Canadians. All of tambram families that I know, barring 4 or 5, their children have married outside of caste. The parents who might have reservations in india, appear to have no such qualms here. If caste was all that important, they would have behaved differently I think. No?

Maybe its time, that we as a community took the lead, and have arranged inter caste marriages. We have nothing to lose. And lots to gain, I think.
 

sangom

Well-known member
What is actually happening in today's world is that importance of culture is diminishing and only that which is in consonance with current thinking is becoming acceptable. Brahmins who are seen as the last bastions of Indian culture, are beginning to witness rebellion by their own young generation.

As someone who has learnt to appreciate the profundity in our values, I am indeed saddened as Shri.Vgane is by all these developments. I do not intend to rake up a sensitive issue but suffice to say that I agree with the OP.

Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.


 

C RAVI

Well-known member


Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.




With reference to the highlighted statement -


So, do you mean to say that such a sea change in the practices of todays Brahmins (not having any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generation) is no different than Brahmins getting into IC/IR marriages?

 

Nara

Well-known member
....Two members have agreed with your above message. Can I expect the same agreement
Come on Ravi, AM only asked you to move on. We all get called names and worse, haven't you heard stick and stones may break your bones ... The women have since apologized. You will find less and less agreement with you if you keep bringing it back.

best wishes ...
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
<leave bygones be bygones. the members concerned had apologised and there is no need to drag them into this. If you cannot leave things in the past and move on, then take a break from this site. Do something else and then come back. If you still cannot leave them, stop posting.

There is no need to go on and on and on and on about the same thing like a broken radio.
- praveen>
 
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sangom

Well-known member
With reference to the highlighted statement -


So, do you mean to say that such a sea change in the practices of todays Brahmins (not having any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generation) is no different than Brahmins getting into IC/IR marriages?


Dear Shri Ravi,

I know you are much younger to me. So, you do not probably know how much the tabras valued their sub-caste pride and purity not very long ago. After Independence and the loud message that caste is not to be allowed its old status, we tabras slowly started accepting inter-sub-caste alliances. (There were sub-sub-caste groupings also in some, like Brahaccharanam and these sub-sub-castes also did not intermarry up to one time!!)

There have been love marriages even 50 or 60 years ago among tabras. But these were far and few between and invariably, the "love" part was meticulously kept under wraps and to the outside world such marriages became inter-sub-caste marriages sanctioned by the elders, vaideekans, mutts and so on — in short, a thing which became normal in tabra society. But even today we find some odd matrimonials specifying the sub-caste/s acceptable.

Hence, I prefer to view the IC marriages as an extension of the sub-caste abolition; but IC is one jump across or above the fence, but even in such IC marriages, there is a definite preference or attraction in bringing up their children with the 'Brahmin' label. The exceptions are hindu-muslim marriages.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Sir,

I don't care who agree with me or not as long as I am sure if I am wrong or not.

My question is, can I too behave in such a nasty manner, seek apology if expressed objection and have my posts justified and left in tact as it is with out moderation using red ink, by the moderators?

Can I expect not a single member/moderator to take offence on me except by the effected party/lady, just like what happened with me? In fact, one member encouraged the lady to not to feel guilty and be more tough to face the objection. To boldly face such objections without feeling ashamed and guilty, LOL!!!


Ironically you people talk about gender equality in this forum with all your fair sense and feel proud of such kind of Pudhumai Penns. LOL!!


Ravi,

As you know very well, there are more than enough வழியற பேர்வழிகள் (people who get swept off their feet, in a sense) here who will support even feminine-sounding monikers. The solution to this problem is for you also to assume a similar sounding log-in name. Then and only then can you ask for this equal treatment and once you do that you won't have to ask even - it will flow naturally!!
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
I am coming across this lament frequently in this forum. If only people do not stop with stating the problem how nice and useful will it be. Let us take the IC marriages first. We will go to IR marriages later. If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
... If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?

while we are discussing the pros and cons of IC marriages, can we go one step further, and discuss the impact too/

for example: food - chances are the IC, one partner is non veg. if so, can it be managed? ie the non veg spouse cooks separately at home or only eats out? what i am looking for, is some thinking through..instead of plain yes/no mode. i think all of us will benefit, both sides, because it will give some clarity to an idea often bandied about here.

re IR marriage, i agree that it is a different kettle to boil. another thread. sometime later. maybe. who knows!!
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
I do not think that the OP expresses concern over a single building being the case in study. This line is the real thrust of the postAnd actually, this is a reality in every brahmin stronghold. Whatever be the reasons, the ratio of IC/IR seems to be increasing.

As to where it would lead, we can, at best, speculate.

That is correct observation of facts. May be right or wrong depending on your position.
 
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