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Is the Community digging its own grave

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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
If they turn out to be handsome or exotically attractive, isn't that a good thing?

They are mostly beautiful...

Shruti Hassan..product of a TB Father and Nortie Non Brahmin Mother..what a beauty and a talented..intelligent girl too.

Vivek Oberoi..product of a Nortie NB Father and a TB mother..a handsome young man with a heart of gold..helped out lots in TN during the Tsunami.

Shruti-Hassan-Gabbar-Singh-Hot-Photos-18.jpg

vivek-oberoi-wallpapers-.jpg
 
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tks

Well-known member
I have few questions and want to know if there are general agreements in the answers.

1. Can anyone enumerate the key qualities of the culture and key traditional values that need to be preserved?
2. What does preservation mean?
3. Why preserve?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Dear Sravna,

Yes..agreed..marriage should take place among equals..

1)Equals in mindset.

2)Equals in family background.

3)Equals in education.

4)Equals in wealth.

5)Equals in religious beliefs as in the concept of God.


Sometimes all these matches might be actually found in a person who might not be in the same community as us.

So I don't see any problems in that...but just to add..I am a product of Intercaste marriage and I opted for an arranged marriage with another intercaste person cos I did not want to marry a pure breed of any kind for fear that I might not be able to adjust to a pure breed lifestyle..but I feel I turned out fine as a Hindu.
 

Jaykay767

Well-known member
Too much of hair splitting on this issue !!. In the 70s, the whites rejected their religion & became hippies & an entire generation was lost. After that expensive experiment, most whites have come back to conservative roots. Today there is a large majority of whites following Christianity more than ever!!

Despite all these modernity, I know some folks who are highly educated working in corporate, sending their kids to study Vedam. So the more people go out of traditions, there are many who are going back strongly to the roots.

So this is a cycle & has to happen for the next generation to learn the pros & cons of marrying outside. Today for a lot of Brahmin kids & even NB kids, like to rebel, go against all the ancient culture & marry outside. It has become a fashion, show off, rebel & set a path like a lone ranger like in the American movies – LOL!!. Give 20/30 yrs, none of their kids will be able to marry into the community. Then that lesson will percolate to the next gen, who will then be more cautious in marrying outside!!

So in the meanwhile, as parents educate your kids the pros and cons of marrying outside. Also the most important thing the Brahmin parents can do is to get their kids to follow traditions from day 1. For eg if a boy or girl gets into carnatic music or study vedic slokams, etc.. , they will automatically choose Bram partners. It is all in the way you groom your kids. If you get into these forums & learn all the wrong things, saying everything is okay, I am okay for my kids to marry anyone or anything, I give a lot for freedom to my kids, then you will be facing such issues in your families!!

I know many folks who are into IC/IR marriages who blame their parents for not guiding them properly the pros, cons & cry over it when it is too late to do anything!! By the way, many in this forum are from the IC/IR group, hence they are loudly proclaiming all this, so follow them at your own peril !!
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna, Yes..agreed..marriage should take place among equals.. 1)Equals in mindset. 2)Equals in family background. 3)Equals in education. 4)Equals in wealth. 5)Equals in religious beliefs as in the concept of God. Sometimes all these matches might be actually found in a person who might not be in the same community as us. So I don't see any problems in that...but just to add..I am a product of Intercaste marriage and I opted for an arranged marriage with another intercaste person cos I did not want to marry a pure breed of any kind for fear that I might not be able to adjust to a pure breed lifestyle..but I feel I turned out fine as a Hindu.
Dear Renuka, I am not talking about caste at all but talking only about the compatibility between two persons with the same extent of spiritual progress. That I think ensures more happiness than possibly all other equals put together minus the spiritual compatibility, do you agree?
 

tbs

Well-known member
hi
i saw a real life couple in USA....the gal is tambrahm,,,,,she belongs to palakkad agraharam

and studied in coimbatore engg college...boy is NB....belong to coimbatore....they met in college..

got married...she has very peculiar palakkad tamil...good in nature and beauty too....but

he is exactly opposite...i still wonder...how this works....i never got answer...even i had

love experiences and never think going out of my basket...love is different...real life is

different.....even i wish i like to love with my own subsect with different gothra....even

sometimes iyer/iyengar love is also unimmaginable to me....may be im unfit for modern days love?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Renuka, I am not talking about caste at all but talking only about the compatibility between two persons with the same extent of spiritual progress. That I think ensures more happiness than possibly all other equals put together minus the spiritual compatibility, do you agree?

Dear Sravna,

Yes I fully agree with you..spouse's mindset on spirituality should match to a certain extent.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
.may be im unfit for modern days love?

Dear TBS garu,

If you are unfit for modern day love..tell me who else is fit?

Remember you told in Forum before that even after marriage you had 10 marriage proposals?

I am pretty sure the 10 were not only from TB community..you could have conquered hearts right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari..am I right???
 

Anand Manohar

New member
TBS Garu

Your post # 046

I don't think it is a good thing to be highly opinionated and judgemental about people.

The world doesn't conform to any one person's yardstick or stick within the parameters
of any one person's 'specification sheet'.

Yay Yem
 

zebra16

Well-known member
Sri Nara Sir,

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

My response is only in respect of the high lighted portion of the text of your message. You have conveniently added caste purity which need not necessarily be the reason for viewing the IC/IR marriage as "scourge" by the OP. After all we have seen in the last 100 years or so that two equally "pure caste" sub sects did not come together in marriage.

I admit that I would readily given in to the demand of my child to marry a partner of her choice, but you are rather over playing the "love" card more blatantly. What about the love of the son or daughter to his/her mother and father? Is it a second fiddle to the love of the marriage partner?

Why does a person who loves his/her brother or sister without reservation, when he/she had no choice or option of selection, has to put such a premium on the parental love and demand my way or highway in respect of marriage?

Notwithstanding all your reservations about Brahmnical culture and values that made you put the word values in quotes, and howsoever it may be elusive to define and be invisible, it is as much an inevitability or "scourge" like IC/IR marriages are, and people who scoff at such "values" would do well to recognize it and start to adjust themselves to its reality just as they did with IC/IR marriages.
 
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sangom

Well-known member
In my limited experience and to my limited intelligence, there are two major factors which prod our youngsters - and more so, our young girls - to get attracted to opposite sex in different castes are the following:—

  • Of late, young minds attach most importance to the physical aspects of marital bliss and do not give much importance to points like maintaining (continuing) family traditions, practices, etc.
  • The younger generation girls who are, in many cases, the first in the line to come out of the traditional mold of a housewife and get exposed to the outer world and also about hindu religion, philosophy, etc., do find that the hindu religion is like a பஞ்சு மிட்டாய் (pañcu miṭṭāy = cotton candy, lit.); i.e., great mass but little substance! This realization together with the (usually) great importance being attached to such a belief system by their parents and elders, makes them to express their revolt by means of a signal step - viz., loving a non-brahmin/non-hindu and marrying him against all the opposition from parents and elders. (Tabra boys, on the contrary, instinctively take a liking to the predominantly male-oriented hinduism/brahminism and the importance they get under such a dispensation, and so only a few start thinking out of the ordinary and go in for inter-caste marriage, even though, at present it has become a herculean task or a billion $ lottery, if below-par tabra boys have to get a tabra wife.

I, therefore, feel that the first requirement is to think logically and remove all the cobwebs of unwanted beliefs and practices (as also in the overall hindu religious system) which exist in our brahmin way of life. Secondly, we have to become conscious of the trend that our tabra girls now give more importance to the physical appearance of their would-be spouses; accordingly, instead of bringing up our boys in the time-honoured way, and making them into typical அம்மாஞ்சிs (ammāñcis), we the parents and elders should start giving equal importance to their physical development as also in going out and wooing a girl of their choice, instead of sticking to the old customs like matrimonial ads, horoscope matching, etc.

IC and IR marriages cannot be prevented theoretically. Even 80 or so years ago my mother-in-law's maternal uncle's daughter, who became a graduate in those days, married a Muslim. She was promptly discarded from the entire brahmin circles but the moral that I am trying to emphasize is that it will be even more impossible today. The basic fault lies in our educating our girls. We must think hard as to whether we as a caste can stand united and stop sending our girls to school. (AFAI have seen, we tabras will be only eager to break this common understanding, even if reached, so that some additional benefit will accrue to "my family". Group loyalty is sadly lacking in the tabra genes I will say.)

Note:

I have not written anything above with the express, implied or indirect intention of belittling tabras or brahmins, etc. Hence, I would request honourable members not to impute any such motive/s and bring in the bogey of "brahmin-bashing", etc. These are the facts which I feel are the truth and I have put them down in typing, to the best of my capacity. That's all.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Why does a person who loves his/her brother or sister without reservation, when he/she had no choice or option, has to put such a premium on the parental love and demand my way or highway in respect of marriage?

Dear Zebra ji,

That is the unique attraction which we call love but I would rather call attraction for continuation of species.....we hardy see anyone committing suicide when their parents/siblings die but enough people jump off the cliff when love fails or even when lover dies.

Continuation of species is an innate nature of living beings..so anything that comes in that way is promptly bull dozed..after all even this whole thread is about continuation of species right??

Just to add...love between parents..child..siblings does not come with physical intimacy.

Love between a couple in love will come with physical intimacy after marriage..so that is why some people choose to sacrifice everything for love cos they find it hard break off with that person for the sake of parents.
cos it is not easy for most people to marry someone else (when they are in love with another) and sleep with someone they have no attraction at all.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
In my limited experience and to my limited intelligence, there are two major factors which prod our youngsters - and more so, our young girls - to get attracted to opposite sex in different castes are the following:—

  • Of late, young minds attach most importance to the physical aspects of marital bliss and do not give much importance to points like maintaining (continuing) family traditions, practices, etc.

I do not understand what Shri.Sangom implies by this. Does he mean that tamil brahmin boys lack in physical aspects which I take to mean as physical attractiveness, outward personality or the ability to provide physical comforts? I find this reason untenable.

  • The younger generation girls who are, in many cases, the first in the line to come out of the traditional mold of a housewife and get exposed to the outer world and also about hindu religion, philosophy, etc., do find that the hindu religion is like a பஞ்சு மிட்டாய் (pañcu miṭṭāy = cotton candy, lit.); i.e., great mass but little substance! This realization together with the (usually) great importance being attached to such a belief system by their parents and elders, makes them to express their revolt by means of a signal step - viz., loving a non-brahmin/non-hindu and marrying him against all the opposition from parents and elders. (Tabra boys, on the contrary, instinctively take a liking to the predominantly male-oriented hinduism/brahminism and the importance they get under such a dispensation, and so only a few start thinking out of the ordinary and go in for inter-caste marriage, even though, at present it has become a herculean task or a billion $ lottery, if below-par tabra boys have to get a tabra wife.

I think the rebellion is not because the girls are really able to see that Hindu religion is like
பஞ்சு மிட்டாய் but because the world has deluded them into thinking that there is no merit in our beliefs. Their course can be corrected but I think it should be done by reason.

I, therefore, feel that the first requirement is to think logically and remove all the cobwebs of unwanted beliefs and practices (as also in the overall hindu religious system) which exist in our brahmin way of life. Secondly, we have to become conscious of the trend that our tabra girls now give more importance to the physical appearance of their would-be spouses; accordingly, instead of bringing up our boys in the time-honoured way, and making them into typical அம்மாஞ்சிs (ammāñcis), we the parents and elders should start giving equal importance to their physical development as also in going out and wooing a girl of their choice, instead of sticking to the old customs like matrimonial ads, horoscope matching, etc.

I don't think that there are any cobwebs unless you are referring to those practices that
have crept in to the system and which are not supported by our philosophy.

Again, I think the main reason why we see the rebellion is because tamil brahmin girls being intelligent developed the trait of intellectual independence under the influence of the modern belief system. Since all that we offer in favor of our culture is not supported by reason the beliefs in them do not happen. Adding fuel to the fire is the overwhelming pragmatic success of the prevailing world philosophy. The pragmatic success makes the girls believe in them.


 

sangom

Well-known member
[/LIST]

I do not understand what Shri.Sangom implies by this. Does he mean that tamil brahmin boys lack in physical aspects which I take to mean as physical attractiveness, outward personality or the ability to provide physical comforts? I find this reason untenable.


I think the rebellion is not because the girls are really able to see that Hindu religion is like [/FONT][/SIZE] பஞ்சு மிட்டாய் but because the world has deluded them into thinking that there is no merit in our beliefs. Their course can be corrected but I think it should be done by reason.



I don't think that there are any cobwebs unless you are referring to those practices that
have crept in to the system and which are not supported by our philosophy.

Again, I think the main reason why we see the rebellion is because tamil brahmin girls being intelligent developed the trait of intellectual independence under the influence of the modern belief system. Since all that we offer in favor of our culture is not supported by reason the beliefs in them do not happen. Adding fuel to the fire is the overwhelming pragmatic success of the prevailing world philosophy. The pragmatic success makes the girls believe in them.

Dear Shri Sravna,

My first reaction to the above was that it contains merely your views (as against mine) and so, I should better not respond. But when I read the last para (highlighted by me in bold, blue fonts) I started wondering whether you are not repeating my own views but in different words. Will you kindly elucidate the differences, if any?
[/FONT][/SIZE]
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
[/FONT][/SIZE]
[/LIST]

I do not understand what Shri.Sangom implies by this. Does he mean that tamil brahmin boys lack in physical aspects which I take to mean as physical attractiveness, outward personality or the ability to provide physical comforts? I find this reason untenable.


I think the rebellion is not because the girls are really able to see that Hindu religion is like [/FONT][/SIZE] பஞ்சு மிட்டாய் but because the world has deluded them into thinking that there is no merit in our beliefs. Their course can be corrected but I think it should be done by reason.



I don't think that there are any cobwebs unless you are referring to those practices that
have crept in to the system and which are not supported by our philosophy.

Again, I think the main reason why we see the rebellion is because tamil brahmin girls being intelligent developed the trait of intellectual independence under the influence of the modern belief system. Since all that we offer in favor of our culture is not supported by reason the beliefs in them do not happen. Adding fuel to the fire is the overwhelming pragmatic success of the prevailing world philosophy. The pragmatic success makes the girls believe in them.




Dear Sravna,

If you go through Sangom ji's post..you will actually realize he has given practical advise for the TB community.

Ok let me share with you...out here the Indian community guys tend to marry Non Indians and this is a worry some trend cos some involves conversion by law and many Indian girls are finding it hard to get married.

So you see a practical minded person will try to find out why this is happening and how to combat these.

Obesity and over weight seems a problem for Indian women worldwide.

The average Indian woman out here is seldom very slim and after marriage mostly become fat....many guys cite this an excuse and the reply from Indian girls is "why should I slim down..he should marry me the way I am"

See this is not being practical...so the advise I give Indian girls is to take care of themselves and look attractive and not let anyone think they are less attractive than other races....do not be over traditional when it comes to dressing and be fashionable within limits.

One has to realize why somethings occur..the practical minded find the causative factor and try to solve it but the less practical minded let sentiments cloud their mind.

So please take Sangom Ji's post as practical advise.
 
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Anand Manohar

New member
Dear Ravi

It is not your fault if someone was surprised [ or disappointed ] and became curious to do research on
what lies behind a komanam. Shows how innocent people are - they have to do research on the topic !

I don't think any man ever did any research to unravel "Victoria's Secret". Might be fun to have a men's
equivalent brand say, something like "Churchill's Confidentiality" / " Manmohan's Mystery ".

Ok, just forget the komanam and other lingerie - nobody is taking a personal dig at you. But your
over-reaction will only motivate these 'research scholars' to pursue their study more vehemently.

Cheer up, Sheikh.

Yay Yem
 

sarang

Well-known member
I agree; the present say two generations were exposed to a rapidly changing environment and pursued the purushartas they thought was needed and desirable. The parents, peers and hostile political environment - all contributed. Since the enhanced basic needs and the urge to earn wealth and security are all achieved to a great extent, many tambram and bram parents - both in India and in the West are drawn back to the old values, beliefs, systems and sampradayam. This is a good sign. A sizable portion of the next generation will find an affinity with their ancestors' ways suitably merged with modern living.

You advise to parents to inculcate brahmin values (followed in their families) from day 1 is the best course available. I would like to add one more - like the good touch and bad touch to be taught to kids, good/bad sampradayic thoughts, practices, people, beliefs must be taught or told to the kids from a very early age.

Too much of hair splitting on this issue !!. In the 70s, the whites rejected their religion & became hippies & an entire generation was lost. After that expensive experiment, most whites have come back to conservative roots. Today there is a large majority of whites following Christianity more than ever!!

Despite all these modernity, I know some folks who are highly educated working in corporate, sending their kids to study Vedam. So the more people go out of traditions, there are many who are going back strongly to the roots.

So this is a cycle & has to happen for the next generation to learn the pros & cons of marrying outside. Today for a lot of Brahmin kids & even NB kids, like to rebel, go against all the ancient culture & marry outside. It has become a fashion, show off, rebel & set a path like a lone ranger like in the American movies – LOL!!. Give 20/30 yrs, none of their kids will be able to marry into the community. Then that lesson will percolate to the next gen, who will then be more cautious in marrying outside!!

So in the meanwhile, as parents educate your kids the pros and cons of marrying outside. Also the most important thing the Brahmin parents can do is to get their kids to follow traditions from day 1. For eg if a boy or girl gets into carnatic music or study vedic slokams, etc.. , they will automatically choose Bram partners. It is all in the way you groom your kids. If you get into these forums & learn all the wrong things, saying everything is okay, I am okay for my kids to marry anyone or anything, I give a lot for freedom to my kids, then you will be facing such issues in your families!!

I know many folks who are into IC/IR marriages who blame their parents for not guiding them properly the pros, cons & cry over it when it is too late to do anything!! By the way, many in this forum are from the IC/IR group, hence they are loudly proclaiming all this, so follow them at your own peril !!
 

sravna

Well-known member


Dear Shri Sravna,

My first reaction to the above was that it contains merely your views (as against mine) and so, I should better not respond. But when I read the last para (highlighted by me in bold, blue fonts) I started wondering whether you are not repeating my own views but in different words. Will you kindly elucidate the differences, if any?

Dear Shri Sangom,

According to you: Tamil brahmin girls rightly believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance
What I said : Tamil brahmin girls erroneously believe that the hindu beliefs are without substance.

Actually the situation is more complex than it seems to from my above statement but in my view gives an idea about the reality.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

If you go through Sangom ji's post..you will actually realize he has given practical advise for the TB community.

Ok let me share with you...out here the Indian community guys tend to marry Non Indians and this is a worry some trend cos some involves conversion by law and many Indian girls are finding it hard to get married.

So you see a practical minded person will try to find out why this is happening and how to combat these.

Obesity and over weight seems a problem for Indian women worldwide.

The average Indian woman out here is seldom very slim and after marriage mostly become fat....many guys cite this an excuse and the reply from Indian girls is "why should I slim down..he should marry me the way I am"

See this is not being practical...so the advise I give Indian girls is to take care of themselves and look attractive and not let anyone think they are less attractive than other races....do not be over traditional when it comes to dressing and be fashionable within limits.

One has to realize why somethings occur..the practical minded find the causative factor and try to solve it but the less practical minded let sentiments cloud their mind.

So please take Sangom Ji's post as practical advise.

Dear Renuka,

I agree it is a well meant advice. When a problem is analyzed, all may not agree on the cause. It is good that the problem is analyzed but till a consensus emerges on the cause, the discussion will contain disagreements and differing points of view.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
I have few questions and want to know if there are general agreements in the answers.

1. Can anyone enumerate the key qualities of the culture and key traditional values that need to be preserved?
2. What does preservation mean?
3. Why preserve?

I have had same questions, but I never get an answer. Good luck.
 
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