Solutions to the community's problem of digging its own grave

[C RAVI]

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Shri Ravi,

The importance that you give "to find ways and means as much as possible, so that such things (IC marriages) doesn't happen." is the majorpoint of difference between us.The tabra society has gone in very different direction/s and it is now nearly impossible to control or put some 'fatwas' against IC marriages of our girls. Nor will suggestions like marrying off girls before they attain a lower age, etc. work. As Shri Brahmanyan says women's independence is the most important cause for our girls preferring to choose or to fall in love with Non-brahmin boys and this freedom just cannot be questioned now, because the law is also on the girls' side. From my talking to a few girls who have IC love marriages, what I understand is that they feel stifled under the hypocrisy of brahmin parents who do not practise what they preach, and secondly, they don't find anything so valuable in following the brahmin way of life. It is kind of revolt and the sad part is that many male members here (including your good self) do not seem to have had the opportunity of interacting with girls who have gone for IC marriage.

Some of the IC and IR marriages fail, some are not smooth, etc., but this is true of same-caste marriages and arranged marriages also.

Last but not least, this topic has been discussed many times in this forum but no workable decisions could be reached. Tabra girls continued their own way. Hence, it is "dogs may bark, but the caravan goes."

I am stopping my posts in this thread because there has to be some end to அரைத்த மாவையே அரைக்கிறது also.

Fair enough!!

So, any thread topic on these lines, expressing concern over existing of Brahmin community, to see if possible solution can be found by openly finding faults with parenting, spirituality etc would be utter foolishness & childishness, leading to waste of cyber space of this Forum?

So, this forum, with the help of Reform Brigades, can not be pro-brahmin because of "desirable ground reality"?

As such, this TB forum can be good enough only for Mirch Masala discussion on politics, economics, Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Language etc..etc, in this General Discussion forum?

May be this will help in non existence of any ill-will among the members!!!

Wowww, what a magnificent community!!!

 

[Nara]

..... The Alwars and Nayanmars were revered during the nascent days of the "Bhakti" movement but later on it was the Brahmins like Ramanuja and Vedanta Desika who came to prominence and wrote many treatises in Sanskrit language.

Dear sangom, I would like to comment on this specific portion of your post without getting into other issues. First, your overall point is correct, I just want to give a few additional details before you get nit picked.

All Azhvars are still revered. In the lineage of SV sampradayam starting from Sriman Narayana, Nammazhvar is the first non-celestial acharya for all sub-sects. Not a single day can pass without singing the praise of Nammazhvar. There are two important points that must be observed in this context. (i) the azhvars whose origins were unknown were given ayonija status and (ii) all azhvars are considered Nitya Soori avatarams sent down from Sri Vaikuntam by Sriman Narayana. In other words, their births are not predicated upon karma like the rest of us Bhaddha jeevas. So, SVs argue, since Azhvars with NB birth such as Nammazhvar, Thirumangai and Kulasekaran are free of the three gunas they do not belong to any varna at all.

Secondly, it is true that all of Ramanuja's texts are in Sanskrit, but SV literature is full of Tamil and Manipravla texts also. One of the most prolific in Tamil, if not the most, is Vedanta Desika. His most influential text Rahasya Thraiya Saram is in Manipravlam and he has penned more than 400 most exquisite verses on various topics that are collectively called Desika Prabhandham. A formal rendering of Desika Prabhandam is a treat to listen to. He also proclaimed himself to be Tamil Maraiyon.

regards ...

 

[sravna]

Are there tambrahm youngsters following the thread who would want to share their views?

 

[C RAVI]

Are there tambrahm youngsters following the thread who would want to share their views?

Unfortunately NO!!! As they are all in bliss as indicated by Reform Brigades..

 

[sangom]

Dear sangom, I would like to comment on this specific portion of your post without getting into other issues. First, your overall point is correct, I just want to give a few additional details before you get nit picked.

All Azhvars are still revered. In the lineage of SV sampradayam starting from Sriman Narayana, Nammazhvar is the first non-celestial acharya for all sub-sects. Not a single day can pass without singing the praise of Nammazhvar. There are two important points that must be observed in this context. (i) the azhvars whose origins were unknown were given ayonija status and (ii) all azhvars are considered Nitya Soori avatarams sent down from Sri Vaikuntam by Sriman Narayana. In other words, their births are not predicated upon karma like the rest of us Bhaddha jeevas. So, SVs argue, since Azhvars with NB birth such as Nammazhvar, Thirumangai and Kulasekaran are free of the three gunas they do not belong to any varna at all.

Secondly, it is true that all of Ramanuja's texts are in Sanskrit, but SV literature is full of Tamil and Manipravla texts also. One of the most prolific in Tamil, if not the most, is Vedanta Desika. His most influential text Rahasya Thraiya Saram is in Manipravlam and he has penned more than 400 most exquisite verses on various topics that are collectively called Desika Prabhandham. A formal rendering of Desika Prabhandam is a treat to listen to. He also proclaimed himself to be Tamil Maraiyon.

regards ...

Thank you so much, Shri Nara. I stand corrected w.r.t. my post # 36 above. I have indicated this in that post also, now.

Thanks, once again.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Shri Brahmanyan's major premises and his conclusion can be stated as follows:

1. Girls have more economic independence these days. So there is a change in the economic and social values of the girls that reflect that independence and make them more inclined to make their own choices
2. In addition, parents postpone the marriage of the girls these days and also have less control over their social interactions
3. The above two factors have caused an increase in IC marriages but there is no need to be alarmed
The inference from the above is that IC marriages will reach an alarming level when the children are totally cut off from their parents or in other words from their roots and be totally independent.
Am I right in saying this Shri Brahmanyan?

Dear Sri Srinivasan Vaidyaraman,

Yes, you have summedup my observations correctly, except that we cannot conclude that IC marriages will reach alarming level when children are cut off from parents and their roots. This is a social change, there may be a limit
for this happenings on the basis of impact of this change in the individual families of IC marriages. We cannot decide on the quantum now. I may be wrong but it is my personal view.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri Srinivasan Vaidyaraman,

Yes, you have summedup my observations correctly, except that we cannot conclude that IC marriages will reach alarming level when children are cut off from parents and their roots. This is a social change, there may be a limit
for this happenings on the basis of impact of this change in the individual families of IC marriages. We cannot decide on the quantum now. I may be wrong but it is my personal view.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Thanks a lot Shri. Brahmanyan for the clarification

 

[Nara]

.... More economic independence among the employed girls is the primary reason for this change. But the attitude of Parents are also responsible for this situation. Parents who have primary responsibility to get proper match for their daughters when they attain eligibility to get married, postpone the same for some reason or other. When the boys and girls at marriageable age are left alone in far off places to mix without control, nature takes over the responsibility of the parents and tie them into wedlock. Many times this infatuation triggered by age, is mistaken for ( instant) love and has no religious, caste or community barriers. If these marriages are out of true love between the two, our Scriptures have nothing against them, and many of these marriages are also successful, but the children out of this wedlock are the worst sufferers. Our society is not ready to accept "asavarna Prathiloma" marriages yet.".

Dear BB (Bangalore Brahmanyan, not the other kind though your views are closer to us BB's than those who made up this moniker), I think you will agree that most parents would be concerned about their children having a happy married life -- both sons and daughters. I don't know why you mentioned only girls, but since you did I will talk about girls. Then, due to circumstances you highlighted, if a girl falls in love and wants to marry the guy, the concern of rational parents should be whether she has made the right choice for a happy marriage in the long term. In trying to assess this, I think the boy's caste and or religion is a very poor predictor. Instead of looking at the boy's caste or religion, the parents should get to know the guy and his friends. After that, if the parents have solid reasons to doubt the girl will be happy, then they should have a respectful conversation with the girl, irrespective of the boy she loves or infatuated with is of the same religion or the same caste or not, no? They should respect the girl's choice and try to be as supportive as possible. If the marriage is successful, great, but if fortune didn't favor the union, which could happen to any marriage these days, be there for her to pick up the pieces and start over.

A word about infatuation, it may very well be infatuation at this stage, but who can tell for sure that it will fade away after a while, who can tell it will not blossom into true love over time. The chances of true love developing in these cases are not any less than that in an arranged marriage. What percentage of arranged marriages result in true love and what percentage feel they have to suffer the marriage due to the taboo associated with divorce?

Lastly, IC/IR marriages are on the rise and it will only increase over time. When "asavarna Prathiloma" children grow up to be adults the society will most likely wonder what the fuss was all about.

Thank you and best regards, Dileepan

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear BB (Bangalore Brahmanyan, not the other kind though your views are closer to us BB's than those who made up this moniker), I think you will agree that most parents would be concerned about their children having a happy married life -- both sons and daughters. I don't know why you mentioned only girls, but since you did I will talk about girls. Then, due to circumstances you highlighted, if a girl falls in love and wants to marry the guy, the concern of rational parents should be whether she has made the right choice for a happy marriage in the long term. In trying to assess this, I think the boy's caste and or religion is a very poor predictor. Instead of looking at the boy's caste or religion, the parents should get to know the guy and his friends. After that, if the parents have solid reasons to doubt the girl will be happy, then they should have a respectful conversation with the girl, irrespective of the boy she loves or infatuated with is of the same religion or the same caste or not, no? They should respect the girl's choice and try to be as supportive as possible. If the marriage is successful, great, but if fortune didn't favor the union, which could happen to any marriage these days, be there for her to pick up the pieces and start over.

A word about infatuation, it may very well be infatuation at this stage, but who can tell for sure that it will fade away after a while, who can tell it will not blossom into true love over time. The chances of true love developing in these cases are not any less than that in an arranged marriage. What percentage of arranged marriages result in true love and what percentage feel they have to suffer the marriage due to the taboo associated with divorce?

Lastly, IC/IR marriages are on the rise and it will only increase over time. When "asavarna Prathiloma" children grow up to be adults the society will most likely wonder what the fuss was all about.

Thank you and best regards, Dileepan

Dear Sri "Nara",

That is a good one. But I do not want to earn a new moniker BB. Let me be a simple B from BNG.
I have quoted my reply from my earlier post (if I remember correctly) about Girls marrying out side the community.
If it is infatuation it will fade away, otherwise the bond may blossom into love which may continue for ever.


Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Vaagmi]

Kunjuppu's #35:

Dear Kunjuppu,

if it happens accept it. IC marriages are no more different than within caste in many respects, though IR has more adjustments.

If it has happened it has happened. Why do you want that to be accepted? Does it need the seal of approval? As I said already almost all the IC/IR marriages are fait accompli. IC/IR marriages are certainly different from the SC/SR marriages in many respects. Particularly the amount of pain it brings on the parents and the devastation it leaves behind in the family. I do not understand why this fact is repeatedly obfuscated here.

arranged IC marriages? all we are saying, as a last resort, if you dont have a spouse in your own caste. and bring up the kids as brahmins, so that your culture is passed on to the next generation. dont cast casteist prejudice on those who do it, and arrange to have your child married to one of scuh. or would you not do that?

Every case is not a last resort case. It is not as easy as that. It requires a tremendous amount of eating of crow. The inability to accept IC/IR marriages is not out of prejudice. That is a different thing. It is just out of concern for the future.

MANAGE the change. the key word is MANAGE. that is the call of this 1/3 of reform brigade dont run away from change, or pretend the change does not exist. worse, dont try to turn back the clock.

Manage the change? Yes. But at our pace and on acceptable terms. Not on terms imposed on us. If every thing that is thrust on is to be accepted then there is no need for management. What is needed is obedience and enforcement. This is where we differ from the reform brigade. The reform brigade has accepted defeat already and is ever ready with a recommendation and advice to crawl when asked to just bend a little. We do not agree with them. We think we change with times at our own pace and after a proper evaluation of the pressure and need for change.

clear enough? enough of innuendos and name calling. thank you.

We are always very clear about it. We only hope it is clear to every one here. I choose to leave the rest of the sentence without a response. Thanks.

 

[Nara]

.....arranged IC marriages? all we are saying, as a last resort, if you dont have a spouse in your own caste. and bring up the kids as brahmins, so that your culture is passed on to the next generation. dont cast casteist prejudice on those who do it, and arrange to have your child married to one of scuh. or would you not do that?...

Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR marriage is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.

In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.

If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

best ...

 

[C RAVI]

Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

best ...

Shri Nara,

So, TB's who are migrated and settled in Western World have good rational thoughts, up-to-date knowledge and information, ability to weigh things and come to correct conclusions etc..etc..pertaining to position of Brahmins in India/TN, pertaining to the issues & challenges faced by Brahmins dwelling on the ground in India, pertaining to psych with which each community in India behaves carrying the sense of self respect and self dignity while living amidst multiple caste community etc..etc..?

Just because you people are though far away, are well equipped with rationality, capability to understand, capacity to weigh things relevant to India and Indians living in India etc..etc, Because you people are living in Well Developed Western World which you people consider as the Mentor for the whole universe.

But, if we say that Brahmins Living in Ground Reality in India, facing issues/challenges from outside & from within the community, with all the social & political discrimination, with other community looking down upon us etc..etc, and as such Such Brahmins in Brahmins society in India/TN has first hand/self experiences to analyze, realize, weigh things etc and as such are in a better positions to derive a particular conclusion and to take a particular stand for the interest of the Brahmin Community in India, you are finding it as just a fodder to use against you people?

:doh:

 

[Vaagmi]

Post #51:

there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

It is not so much about your not knowing the ground realities. It is about the influence of the alien culture on you and more so on your children. This is not like the sub-zero temperature which can be experienced only when you are in that environment. We are not Eskimos living in Lapland either not to know what it is like in the Sahara. We also visit those countries of alien culture and see what is there in their culture. If it is inside for you it is outside for us and what is outside happens to be inside for us. So there is no need to claim any superior knowledge about the ground situations. We are as much aware of it as you are. We do understand the need for you to rationalise the IC/IR marriages and that is the reason why we oppose that.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]marriage[/COLOR] is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.

Again a complete misunderstanding of facts. The culture is quite different. Those who are sold on the western culture can never understand this. In one culture the girl as well boy once reached the adult stage is on his or her own. If the boy or girl still stick to his/her parents it is considered unusual and a solution is found. In the other culture it is only natural for the girl/boy to be with parents even after becoming an adult, even after settling in work life with a good job etc., until marriage. After marriage it is optional. The underlying reasons are concern for the welfare of the child. To use terms like obedience, submissive, , selfishness etc to explain this may earn a few brownie points from like minded people living in alien culture. It appears you have toned down your language. I remember you reprimanded indian brahmin parents with the words "locking the uteruses of their daughters" or something equivalent to that. No brahmin ever considers that an IC/IR marriage is an absolute ruin. Humiliating - among the family members is a fact. Parents feel sad that the child has taken things in its hands knowing fully well the kind of pain that it causes to the parents. The parents forget the child and there ends the matter. Some parents accept the marriage reluctantly and try to live with the pain as if nothing has happened. There is no defeat or success for any one and it is not a dual. Only the pain and bitterness remains which is avoidable. Understanding this will be difficult for those PIOs because they are still wide-eyed with wonder in the enjoyment of the unrestricted indulgence of the western civilization.

In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.

We understand the girl's predicament. She gave in to the pressure exerted by harmones and did some thing but inside her heart knows what is good and what is not. So she would like to give the best to her children until one day her children perhaps does the same that she did to her parents.

If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

This is not for brahmins. They have no honour whatsoever left. Their tufts have been cut in public, they have been spat upon in public transport buses, their women folk have been groped by thugs and hooligans in the name of Self-respect struggle etc., Please go and tell this to those who burned the public transport buses and the houses of dalits just because a daughter of their caste ran away with a dalit. You are under a wrong tree. Thanks.

 

[vgane]

I can give a few examples from our community:

1. Girl studies in a Christian convent school in Chennai...Looked overtly religious (in terms of Hindu prayers/Carnatic Music)..Went for her undergraduation (B.E) to Kochi...Met her Christian Boy Friend studying in same class...Away from parental contact & care...She found a partner in him..Married him

2. Girl studies in a Brahminical school...Went to a good college (B.A)...Started to work in a Chennai based BPO...Fell in love with a NB boy within 6 months of under graduation and married him without informing parents or siblings

3. A father of 3 girls...Elder one just 17+ years...There was a Marwari boy who was working in their home...Suddenly one day without informing parents the girl (a Minor) eloped with this Marwari boy..Father caught hold of the boy & was sent to Jail as he married a minor...As girl turned 18, she was asked for her choice by Police & without batting an eyelid preferred to live with the boy..Both got married against girl's parents wishes

Is there some common thread in these?

In these circumstances what do we decipher...I have not shared the personal trauma of the 3 families

The girls may go for work, may study in a different place or may be exposed to other community boys even while at home..It looks so common, so inane..what is there to discuss?

The exposure however is different...

Digital exposure is also new and different

In these trying circumstances how do we educate the girls?

We cannot have a moral police

Self realisation is very important...As parents are we enlightening our children about the right ways, the right practices, right interactions?

Or we think that is interference in the personal lives for which we have given them independence?

I do not think that parents are taking proactive approach to stem the tide...There is no point brooding later after the incident

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara,

Dear K, there is a strong correlation between the POV expressed on this matter and how far away from India one lives. This serves as easy fodder to be used against us -- you don't know the ground realities, mind your business you BB and now they have a new one RB. But it seems to me, it is this looking in from afar and the benefit of knowledge and experience of the inside as well as the outside that give us unique perspective to understand the irrationality of this zealous resistance to IC/IR, one could even say this resistance is fanatical.

The prospect of a daughter in IC/IR marriage is seen as absolute ruin, humiliating, profoundly dishonorable. She is selfish, she has rejected the family, she does not care for Brahmin values. To them this is nothing short of war, a war of wills. The girl must be obedient and submit to the rules set by the parents when it comes to marriage, or it is defeat. Under these conditions, மனம்போல் மாங்கல்யம் (pun unintended) it is defeat indeed to the girl or to the parents, and the tragic fact is, in either case it is defeat for both.

In most cases the girl in love is not rejecting anything and may in fact end up bringing her children up with the so called Brahmin values than a goody-goody son who gets into an arranged SR/SC marriage and the daughter-in-law does not care about these values.

If one is stuck in "family honor" mentality, it is going to be very hard.

best ...

Probably you are not giving adequate importance to the fact that to the average tamil brahmin you are appearing to thrust the change sooner than they desire.

If I am a parent whose children have been married off in the traditional way of SC and SR the worry of IC/IR is pushed to the next generation that is about 25 years away. There is no need and an obvious reluctance to adjust to the changes which appear to be "reformist". A statistics of how many tamil brahmin families remain affected or remain unaffected will indicate the pace with which the change in attitude will occur.

The terroist destruction of 9/11 is more real to you than to us. For us it is an incidence to derive lessons there from. Similarly the atrocities on brahmins by the dravidian goons are a "real" experience for us. For some like you it is just a matter of setting right of presumed wrong doing of the brahmins in the distant past and history waiting to happen.

Only time can heal the wounds. Till then the twain shaln't meet.

Regards

 

[ShivKC]

Shri Nara,

So, TB's who are migrated and settled in Western World have good rational thoughts,
:doh:

sh.ravi, this post is not addressed to you. But gave me a lead to share my views on those who browbeats on rationality and seek evidence/proof for every simple thing, at the drop of a hat , in a discussion.

As nelson pass said, we should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines.

they value mona liza by the number of pixels... they rely on titration to rank the best champagne. while a normal person appreciate Bala Murali Krishna , they appreciate the mosquitoes buzz, cos they already got the proof that, its of much a higher pitch..

 

[tks]

Hard to keep up with the all the posts though some seem want to restate the same points over and over in my view. I hope I am not doing the same with this post

I sense some misconceptions in some of the posts being propagated (about human beings in general including TB)

- Following a cultural tradition and wanting future generations to follow similar traditions has nothing to do with narrow mindedness and feeling supreme over others. Wanting to preserve ethnic character (instead of 'ethnic purity' a term used by President Carter in 1975 at a campaign) is not really about discriminating others.

- All groups/communities/citizens with good self esteem have always expressed a view that they are the best. All countries proclaim that they live in the best country. By saying 'they are the best' does not mean that they are saying others are to be treated with contempt.

- There is a world view of scarcity and there is a world view of abundance according Stephen Covey. If one is raised in a world view of scarcity then they tend to become narrow minded and prejudiced towards others. If one contemplates a bit they will find that our world can allow for many to be best in many different traits. Only a narrow minded person will view simple statements by someone of being the best or wanting to be the best in some traits as a supremacist attitude. It is even sillier that some think that they feel most elite by preaching 'how to be liberal' in a 'holier than thou' postings. Let us see the world the way it is - it is actually abundant. Varna concept by itself did not arise out of worldview of narrow mindedness and even Gandhi alluded to this despite fighting what it had become in practice.

- Human beings will always use their power position to go after increased power. This was true yesterday and today. It is true all over the world. The prescription of Brahmin way of life had checks and balances. It is possible 'Brahmins' in another era used their influence for incorrect gains over others. Such a behaviour is common for all human beings but there are consequences. Today's Brahmins do not have any collective power. It is silly to bring up Brahmin supremacy and power in today's world. All that is left are a few who want to maintain their ethnic character. If a Parsi or a Jewish person want to maintain their ethnic character I am not sure why any of us would want to object. Same holds for those who want to see the cultural traditions of Brahmins (however way they define) to benefit their children.

- IC/IR marriages happen because many Brahmin families are ignorant of why they follow a tradition. When a person understand why they are vegetarians and how our traditions are rooted in broad mindedness then they will want a marriage partner from similar background when possible.

- IC/IR marriages by itself do not cause doom and gloom for any community. There are many cases I know where the new unit due to IC/IR marriage actually started following traditions of Brahmins with more vigor and with more understanding.

- If a child has become 30+ and is still not married due to whatever reason the parents are left with few choices. Continue to look for alliance, and broaden the search. The question to be answered is if it is better for the child to stay unmarried or get married to someone of good character even if they are not from one's community.

Let me share a few closing thoughts. My children are born US Citizens but they are not raised in any alien culture. Au Contraire, they embrace all symbols of our tradition with proper understanding of what those symbolism means. It is this understanding that they sense when they see the symbols (Pottu in forehead, Poonal and doing Sandhyavandhanam to name a few ) Often when we visit Chennai or certain places they are kind of surprised at how many of their cousins do not have basic understanding of our traditions. Chennai seem alien culture to us in that sense and I am not kidding.

We have made adaptation. If my son or I go to the beach for a swim we take out the Poonal out and put it back properly after shower.

I do not know if they or I will be able to find true Guna Brahmanas in TB community for them (preferably raised in US). Only time will tell.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear tks,

Your post #57:

You have summed up so beautifully everything that I others have been saying here all these days. Thank you.

 

[Nara]

Probably you are not giving adequate importance to the fact that to the average tamil brahmin you are appearing to thrust the change sooner than they desire....

Dear Narayan, what my convictions are is well known, if I harbor any illusions of meeting of the minds with those who see IC/IR in terms of honor, defeat, obedience, etc., then I am not merely overly optimistic, but an incorrigible fool. I know I will be as far away intellectually as is possible with what is represented by the following:

Highlighted from post #50:

• Particularly the amount of pain it brings on the parents and the devastation it leaves behind in the family.
• Every case is not a last resort case. It is not as easy as that. It requires a tremendous amount of eating of crow.
• What is needed is obedience and enforcement.
• The reform brigade has accepted defeat already

However, those with young girls face the real possibility of IC/IR. My comments are directed at them in the hope that not all of them will subscribe to the binary logic exemplified above. Those who nurse the kind of mindset revealed in post #50, will face the real danger of the kind of surreptitiousness vgane points out in post 54. But, those who are smart will start developing trust and respect with their teenage girls. This is not easy, can't be dictated top down. My hope is what I am expressing here will make sense to them.

Also, trying to push the worry down to the next generation seems to be a very selfish thing to do, no?

regards ...

 

[Vaagmi]

I can give a few examples from our community:

1. Girl studies in a Christian convent school in Chennai...Looked overtly religious (in terms of Hindu prayers/Carnatic Music)..Went for her undergraduation (B.E) to Kochi...Met her Christian Boy Friend studying in same class...Away from parental contact & care...She found a partner in him..Married him
2. Girl studies in a Brahminical school...Went to a good college (B.A)...Started to work in a Chennai based BPO...Fell in love with a NB boy within 6 months of under graduation and married him without informing parents or siblings
3. A father of 3 girls...Elder one just 17+ years...There was a Marwari boy who was working in their home...Suddenly one day without informing parents the girl (a Minor) eloped with this Marwari boy..Father caught hold of the boy & was sent to Jail as he married a minor...As girl turned 18, she was asked for her choice by Police & without batting an eyelid preferred to live with the boy..Both got married against girl's parents wishes

Is there some common thread in these?
In these circumstances what do we decipher...I have not shared the personal trauma of the 3 families
The girls may go for work, may study in a different place or may be exposed to other community boys even while at home..It looks so common, so inane..what is there to discuss?
The exposure however is different...
Digital exposure is also new and different
In these trying circumstances how do we educate the girls?
We cannot have a moral police
Self realisation is very important...As parents are we enlightening our children about the right ways, the right practices, right interactions?
Or we think that is interference in the personal lives for which we have given them independence?
I do not think that parents are taking proactive approach to stem the tide...There is no point brooding later after the incident

Vgane:

The issue is basically the way the children are brought up. The kind of value time parents spend with children right from the childhood when the child starts going to school. When my school going daughter showed signs of disinterest and resistance to the usual morning prayer recitation before the kuththuvilakku in the perumAl sannidhi along with her mother, it took a good one hour of conversation with her for me to know what was happening. Her teachers and some of the class mates were repeatedly asking her why we have so many gods. One god for getting wealth, two for getting good education, one for health etc etc., The girl was unable to find an answer. Once the problem was understood by us the parents, we told her how to handle these questions. As she moved further and reached the secondary school level there was this idea thrown at her that everyone has the same color blood running in their veins and so everyone is equal. When this question was handled we could show her how much of a simplistic assumption has gone into this assumption. The anxiety vanished once things were explained.

When I was going through the archives here i found some one had suggested a class for every girl and boy just after they finish their college education to be addressed by 1)learned elders who will speak to them about our culture, values, religious faith etc., how and why they are superior 2)Doctors/consultants/counsellors who will talk to them about their physical system including the changes that occur as they grow, the impact of hormones, dangers of a casual but intense relationship etc.,They will teach even what a handshake which lingers for a few seconds too long means, how to identify a casanova and handle a working relationship with him in the work place etc.3)Experts in finance about savings and investments. This will be on the lines of a finishing school. They will learn essentials to face life. It is a good idea and can be tried.

If brahmins, wherever they are can organize such classes every year to the eligible youngsters through their numerous, sabhas, kalakshepa goshtis, samajams, bhajanai matoms, temple committees and through the ******* they can save many girl/boy going in the wrong path. Forget about the diaspora as they are deeply mired in the heady stupor of alien cultures. They have to gain a lot of energy to reach an escape velocity which is just next to impossible. They will come like they do here and offer quickfix solutions which are suitable only to their children living in those countries. Politely listening to them and quickly forgetting what they said and keeping away from them is the best option.

Another most important point is that you(the parents) should yourself live a decent and good life. If you smoke a cigarette first thing in the morning, nurse a peg of whiskey before dinner, forgot completely that piece of thread called poonal, never go anywhere near the perumal sannidhi, has no sense of what brahmins call எச்சில் or பத்து and go about mixing everything around freely, do not express restraint with your language and emotions then you lose not only your right to expect anything from your children, you also lose a lot of esteem and your advices and words will be treated with the contempt that they deserve. You can cover up the absence of real love and respect for you by flowery language like "my love for my children was just unconditional" like my india born(he was born in coonoor in the Nilgiris) Anglo Indian friend who had never visited England used to drop the words "back home in London" every now and then in the conversation to cover up the abject poverty in which he lived.

If inspite of all your efforts, IC/IR marriages do happen stoically put up with them without accepting them as normal. It can not be business as usual after an IC/IR marriage because the basic fabric of understanding,trust, love and affection are all irreparably damaged. If the IC marriage is a success let them live happily. If it fails let them handle it. Don't take it on your head as a problem to be solved by you. If help is asked for extend it. The other children in the family will atleast learn necessary lessons. Thanks.

Cheers.