Is it time to sub-divide the Tamil Brahmin community?

[prasad1]

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hi
many gujaratis live in USA without english for many years..its surprise to me..

They are savvy business people and chase money. They have close family ties to help each other. One person of the family to do the English Language problem.
I have many Gujarati friends and associates; I admire their grit. I do have to learn Gujarati as they will only speak that language in spite of knowing that others (non-Gujaratis) are present.

 

[prasad1]

This makes it difficult for TB mothers born during 1970s or earlier to find suitable daughters-in-law for themselves. Hence many TB prospective grooms are not married. They want to please their mothers though suitable brides are available in plenty.

Few mothers are liberal in this regard.

Who is marriage for?
If Mother-in-law wants a maid just hire one.

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

Who is marriage for?
If Mother-in-law wants a maid just hire one

That was the blunder mothers-in-law did. Instead of hiring one, who would not subscribe to their 'madi's and 'pathu's, they got one from their own community married to their sons and made them daughters-in-law. 'Daughter-in-law' was a pseudonym for 'Glorified Maid', or 'Glorified Servant'. In worst cases, TB d-i-ls were 'Glorified Slaves' sometimes meted out worse treatment than hired maids.

 

[tbs]

That was the blunder mothers-in-law did. Instead of hiring one, who would not subscribe to their 'madi's and 'pathu's, they got one from their own community married to their sons and made them daughters-in-law. 'Daughter-in-law' was a pseudonym for 'Glorified Maid', or 'Glorified Servant'. In worst cases, TB d-i-ls were 'Glorified Slaves' sometimes meted out worse treatment than hired maids.

hi

glorified slaves...with out payment maids....i agreed.....now time changed....

 

[RSSARMA52]

Today it is very difficult to get alliance from our the same sects. So also our sect but settled in other language state so speak only their language. This is another embarrassment to the bride - daughter-in-law. If the family too much into fun and frolic they insult without understanding and situation.
Then another is we go into other language speaking other native. Here too the sane situation.
The main is mindset. If you go to a company or even IAS and others there is a training time to be undergone by them. As it is compulsory for the paid and prestige they had to attend and show their attendance and performance. Even during their service new law or others get training to attend to.
But here the bride or groom don't take interest in learning and carelessly do counter argument.
Will power, "I don't know today but I will know tomorrow and show you" should be the attitude.
Even myself get irritated when fun beyond limit is encouraged and others are forced into it. Everyone has not brought up in irresponsible life growing.
This certainly a problem in married life.
Then other issues of spirituality, food, food habits, restaurants like keeping the kitchen open beyond closing time are all another issue. Then spiritual pandits critism of any issue like dress wearing or other. They don't come and concentrate on their duty but make fun between pandits they brought for the spspiritual or karma duty.
If male members then not knowing spiritual rituals in their mother tongue but do in the aid of English translitration.
Here too a major issue from Giri Trading who are forefathers of spirituality's careless attitude.
See their Upakarna paper every year. They accommodated everything in two pages by shrinking the fond. In this minute fond of words they quote to take from page earlier from words...... to.... words and continue. But we get lost and continue wrong rituals. Why not they publish it 4 pages and we spend ₹100.00 to buy it and easily read it in full without backward and forward? If you out put old stale food to Sastrigal will the accept it?
Same is here do the printing in full everything no going to other part of the paper. Once we dud that part we no need to look back.
Another start word.......end of the ritual. Many doesn't know it. How do they able to recite it?
We are only hailing Giri Trading but No Sastrigal or old aged buyers every told them to stop this practice.
What to do everything is out of control because we don't have an authority to follow proper spiritual duty.

 

[sravna]

All the BS afflicting brahmins due to foreign influence. Period.

 

[Lotusinsanskrit]

That was the blunder mothers-in-law did. Instead of hiring one, who would not subscribe to their 'madi's and 'pathu's, they got one from their own community married to their sons and made them daughters-in-law. 'Daughter-in-law' was a pseudonym for 'Glorified Maid', or 'Glorified Servant'. In worst cases, TB d-i-ls were 'Glorified Slaves' sometimes meted out worse treatment than hired maids.

In which era you are living. This is almost vanished with 80s DIL and 50s MIL. Now with 60s and 70s MILs 90s and 2ks DILs not even imagine this situation and not able to get one from same community

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

In which era you are living. This is almost vanished with 80s DIL and 50s MIL. Now with 60s and 70s MILs 90s and 2ks DILs not even imagine this situation and not able to get one from same community

In a few decades from now, you will not get brides or bridegrooms from same religion, let alone community.

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

In which era you are living. This is almost vanished with 80s DIL and 50s MIL. Now with 60s and 70s MILs 90s and 2ks DILs not even imagine this situation and not able to get one from same community

MILs who were career women themselves, are empathetic. They understand. They have been DILs too and they are aware of the plight of their non-career contemporary homemakers. They are empathetic.

Furthermore Career-MILs choose Career-DILs mandated by current scenario, race for financial supremacy.

Horoscopes, Caste-Religion-Community criterion will become extinct from matrimonial columns. We already see Domicile ('preferable settled in USA or willing to relocate to USA' etc) and Annual Income criteria dominating. Even clauses like 'caste no bar', 'language no bar' will cease from appearing in matrimonial columns. They will no longer exist/prevail.

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

All the BS afflicting brahmins due to foreign influence. Period.

Sir, you are always blaming foreign influence and I wonder if your allegations are true.

Did foreigners impose their culture on TBs?

Ain't TBs were influenced by or allowed themselves to be influenced by, captivated by or fall for foreign fads and trends!!!

Women born in TB familes during 1990s and after prefer a comfortable, complex-free, orthodox free, liberal life. They despise superstition constraints and other irrational constraints, obsolete customs, traditions, which make absolutely nil sense.

Much of their time during week is spent in work. Striking a work-life balance is challenging. Seldom do they find time for recreation or entertainment.

Holding on to so-called-TB-culture is a burden, a white elephant, does not make any sense, does not benefit one bit. On the contrary it costs them true joy, happiness which are of greater value than feigning virtue in pretext of maintaining culture. They have redefined culture. They are generating a true culture and wish to dispense with pseudo culture. This is not acceptable to the conditioned and programmed mind. But the current generation cannot care any less.

For women of 90s including TBs, culture is to develop better human interactions and build better human relationships to make this world a good place to live. Culture is to mingle with everyone, enjoy life, live a simple, complex-free life, adopt and absorb anything good and that which benefits. Frankly, caste-consciousness is uncivilized and uncultured for women of 90s. They are working out a caste-free, religion-free, war-free, ego-free, hypocrisy-free world.

 

[prasad1]

Sir, you are always blaming foreign influence and I wonder if your allegations are true.

Did foreigners impose their culture on TBs?

Ain't TBs were influenced by or allowed themselves to be influenced by, captivated by or fall for foreign fads and trends!!!

For women of 90s including TBs, culture is to develop better human interactions and build better human relationships to make this world a good place to live. Culture is to mingle with everyone, enjoy life, live a simple, complex-free life, adopt and absorb anything good and that which benefits. Frankly, caste-consciousness is uncivilized and uncultured for women of 90s. They are working out a caste-free, religion-free, war-free, ego-free, hypocrisy-free world.

TB's prospered by adapting. and there are some TB who failed because they could not adapt, and keep blaming foreigners,

 

[sravna]

Sir, you are always blaming foreign influence and I wonder if your allegations are true.

Did foreigners impose their culture on TBs?

Ain't TBs were influenced by or allowed themselves to be influenced by, captivated by or fall for foreign fads and trends!!!

Women born in TB familes during 1990s and after prefer a comfortable, complex-free, orthodox free, liberal life. They despise superstition constraints and other irrational constraints, obsolete customs, traditions, which make absolutely nil sense.

Much of their time during week is spent in work. Striking a work-life balance is challenging. Seldom do they find time for recreation or entertainment.

Holding on to so-called-TB-culture is a burden, a white elephant, does not make any sense, does not benefit one bit. On the contrary it costs them true joy, happiness which are of greater value than feigning virtue in pretext of maintaining culture. They have redefined culture. They are generating a true culture and wish to dispense with pseudo culture. This is not acceptable to the conditioned and programmed mind. But the current generation cannot care any less.

For women of 90s including TBs, culture is to develop better human interactions and build better human relationships to make this world a good place to live. Culture is to mingle with everyone, enjoy life, live a simple, complex-free life, adopt and absorb anything good and that which benefits. Frankly, caste-consciousness is uncivilized and uncultured for women of 90s. They are working out a caste-free, religion-free, war-free, ego-free, hypocrisy-free world.

I am calling spade a spade. Many may not agree. I am not forcing them to agree. Those are my honest views,

 

[sravna]

Those who went abroad gained wealth but lost culture and roots. Which is more important?

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

Those who went abroad gained wealth but lost culture and roots. Which is more important?

That which is obsolete, does not benefit, which is just a delusion, dispense, discard.

 

[sravna]

That which is obsolete, does not benefit, which is just a delusion, dispense, discard.

You discard that which gets worthless with time not the timeless

 

[sravna]

If you insist on being force only time itself will pulverize you to nothing. You wouldn't be carried to the future.

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

You discard that which gets worthless with time not the timeless

You are perfectly correct. Hence worthless is discarded. Else it will vanish by itself. It will cease to exist. It will die by itself like the many things which have died without man's awareness.

Only Eternal Truth is Timeless. He, the Eternal Truth reigns supreme. He manipulates, orchestrates, dictates terms, controls, steers, drives. Not we immortal men.

 

[tbs]

hi

if we change girl and girl's parents attitude....then everything will change...but it is not going to happen...

 

[prasad1]

hi

if we change girl and girl's parents attitude....then everything will change...but it is not going to happen...

Change to what? Instead of Computers should we go back to Abacus? Instead of cars should we go back to bullock carts? Should we pump sea water to the Himalayas? We cannot stop progress, if we try it will just run us over.

“Those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” – George Bernard Shaw
You have to keep an open mind if you want to make a change. Admit when you are wrong and accept new ideas or theories. You’d expect the same from others, so set the example and make a change.

 

[pbkhema]

Hello all.

I was not sure if it is correct to make this thread here or in the sociology section.

Recently I have been engaged in matrimonial search both for myself and my brother as well as some cousins, all are in their 30s.

I thought I was an exceptional case of a Tamil Brahmin family that got "group displaced" into central India (Maharashtra) and never went back to south India since it has been 70+ years since anyone worked or lived in south India. Due to some twist of fate, either our family members went abroad or settled in the cities of Central and North/East India like Maharashtra, MP, Gujarat, Delhi, West Bengal, etc.

Now all of us in this generation face a severe and exceptional challenge - it appears that 3-4 generations away from South India has actually changed us in the sense that we are not following the Tamil culture or speaking the Tamil language in the way the actual south Indians do. Personally I can tell my Tamil dialect is an older dialect that is not used in any modern Tamil discussion or media of Tamil Nadu.

Regardless of matrimonial consequences, I found that there is a huge number of "Tamil" Brahmins like us especially in Maharashtra and Gujarat.

The more north I go in my search, the more I find Tamil Brahmin boys and girls who do not even speak Tamil.

There are people who list themselves as Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada speaking in all matrimonial portals although they are Tamil Brahmins.

When I asked these families, they said it is convenient because stating your mother tongue as Tamil indicates you are Tamil to the app's algorithm, and it is not consonant with the reality of their children where they converse mostly in Hindi/Marathi/Telugu/Kannada and follow those customs and trends.

I personally have cousins who do not speak Tamil, although on paper they are Iyer. Their language is Malayalam, Marathi, Tulu and Sindhi.

Personally I spent my whole adult life in Maharashtra, Gujarat, MP and now Delhi NCR. This means that naturally due to affinity, my "Brahmin culture" is much more aligned to the local practices of the communities of these states.

This issue further creates a rift between the grandparents who originally migrated from south India and the children who no longer know what that culture or society means.

I have seen the common complaint on all matrimonial discussions between Tamil Brahmins in-person or online: That boys and girls who live in south India are OK to migrate between the states but not to Maharashtra, Gujarat and MP. The Central Indian clustered group of MH-GJ-MP more or less wants to remain confined in this region and the North India-based ones also desire to stay within North India.

Personally I faced this problem also, I frankly don't have any Tamil Brahmin (or Tamil NB) friends today who still think of themselves as Tamil except those I made in childhood during school. The population is too low and the migrant Tamil population working in Delhi or Indore, Ahmedabad somehow feel I am not Tamil enough for them due to 3 generations of Marathi and MP influence.

I found that, TB boys/girls raised in northern India + Maharashtra + Gujarat are not keen on marrying any Tamil Brahmin and instead prefer non-Tamil outright. However, because of racist, classist and linguistically divided society most of them accept whatever they can get, usually they settle for another northern-born TB person or a northern born Tamil speaking NB match.

I often have to declare my "mother tongue" as Tamil although almost everyone in my family is multilingual. For example, my father - Tamil + Kannada, my mother - Tamil + Marathi, myself - Hindi + Tamil + Gujarati + Marathi, my brother - Tamil + Hindi, some cousins - Malayalam + Marathi or Tamil + Marathi

Much of my generation born in Northern parts tends to prefer worship and rituals in the fashion of the Central Indian people/Western Indian people. I know outright preference some people have for Punjabi and Haryanvi culture.

Ethnicity, language were never rigid. As it is well known at least some Brahmins in all states were migrants or descendants of migrants. So it is not necessary that a Tamil Brahmin remains that forever.

The thought has struck my head, whether it is time to divide the Tamil Brahmin community into North Indian Tamil Brahmin and South Indian Tamil Brahmin. I imagine differences (cultural, linguistic and otherwise) are going to get worse over time.

I would like the esteemed forum members' thoughts on this issue.

P. S. to a smaller extent I have seen this in other south Indian Brahmin communities also

E.g. Deshashta Brahmin declaring themselves as Hindi or Telugu; Madhwa Brahmin calling themselves Marathis, Niyogi Brahmins describing themselves as Kannada and not Telugu

THERE ARE TOO MANY AND UNNECESSARY SUB DIVISIONS EVEN NOW, My view is to have limited subdivisions based on the Sutra ( e,g, Apastamba Baudhanya etc)Then there will be more cohesion which is needed in the oresnt state if the nation

 

[prasad1]

THERE ARE TOO MANY AND UNNECESSARY SUB DIVISIONS EVEN NOW, My view is to have limited subdivisions based on the Sutra ( e,g, Apastamba Baudhanya etc)Then there will be more cohesion which is needed in the oresnt state if the nation

Why have subdivisions? Why not accept humanity as one?

 

[GNANA SUNYAM]

Why have subdivisions? Why not accept humanity as one?

Indeed humanity is ONE. It has been one and only one since time immemorial, since creation. The imperialistic mind created divisions, irrational divisions and has resulted in the mess the world now is in, resulted in the wars, the battles, the ruin, the destruction which has benefitted humanity nothing, absolutely nothing. The wise among the current generation of prospective brides and grooms have apparently realized this, hence eliminate the divisions, sub-divisions, diversities. The peaceful means is to marry across caste, across religions and eventually eliminate this evil, establish a division-less, caste-less, religion-less, hatred-less, enmity-less, hostility-less, world where love for fellow human beings reigns supreme. Perhaps there would not be rich-poor division either. Everyone having everything in common like erstwhile Antioch, everyone desiring the welfare of others. Shame on us. Had we realized this naked truth and acted accordingly, perhaps the world would be an Utopia now.

"Dharmathin vaazhuvadhanai soodhu kavvum. Irudhiyil dharmamae vellum"

 

[sravna]

Please preach that to U.S of A to treat humanity as one. No lectures here please

 

[sravna]

If you can make U.S.A listen we will listen

 

[sravna]

These people are not genuinely concerned about any wrongdoings if at all done but it is all about bringing down a community which they see as extremely gifted. Hence the need to attack.