Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[C RAVI]

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Originally Posted by C RAVI
- Brahmins are distinguished by way to eating habits and that's what I have highlighted in terms of superiority of jeeva. Brahmin jeevas have more challenges in life than other jeevas. Whether a Brahmin jeeva is strictly following the laid principles is an individual issue. We should not get confused with an Individual's habits/desires and life style with that of Brahmin systems in general.

brahmins are not the only vegetarians.

if diet is a unit of measure of superiority of the jeeva, then were vedic priests who consumed meat inferior?

how do you measure superiority of a jeeva?

- The above by Sri Happyhindu ji (There is nothing wrong in her questioning me. That what we need in general)
------------------------------------------------

Hello HH, you are indeed correct to raise these questions.

Unfortunately, there is no awareness of certain basic facts and yet people venture in with all sorts of sweeping statements. The basic nature of jeevathma is well defined in the very second chapter of BG. It is there for all to look at and easily understand.

There is a near universal consensus that there is no தாரதம்யம் (superior/inferior) when it comes to the essential nature of Jeevas. Only Madhwa dwaitees associate gender and varna to athma. Jati/Varna differences, superiority, inferiority come into picture only when a jeeva is born into a body due to karma.

This is a fundamental concept for Hindus in general. Why do people who are not familiar with even the basics get into a discussion of the nature of athma, etc., unless they are proposing a completely new religion?

Cheers!

Sri Raghy ji, Sri Kunjuppu ji,

I expressed my opinion based on Sri Nara'ji above post. And declared to eject myself from such threads. Doesn’t it shows my maturity and responsibility?

- Am I wrong in my decision based on above concerns of Sri Nara ji?

Despite of my clear reasoning for my decision, if Sri Nara ji, considers me having negative attitude and a meek & discouraged young man trying to hide myself in shell doesn’t seems to degrade me and aggravating me to reply?

I did not consider his first quote as above as an insult to me. I am sincerely telling the truth. Sri Nara ji was absolutely correct and helped me to realize my standard and eligibility to contribute to such threads.

His second post, declaring me as an individual having attitude problem and meekly trying to hid myself in a shell has really disturbed me. But still I have no negative feelings and I still carry great respect for Sri Nara ji. But I could not resist my self from expressing my Attitude and intentions being challenged in the open Forum.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Ravi Ji,

Honestly, after seeing Mr Nara Ji's post, i thought for a moment he meant me!. :gossip:. Then, I thought கருத்து பரிமாற்றத்தில இதெல்லாம் சகஜமப்பா. See in olden days, priests get angry very easily and often give "பிடி சாபம்" and then "சாப விமோச்சனம்" too. Let's treat the elders err.. ok ok... please treat the elders in this forum like that and continue to post your views.

I had an interest in Hinduism only few months back that too to post some counter views against some of the postings sent by people belong to other religion in facebook. Once I joined here, I abandoned that. Because I realized this is the place where i can get my doubts clarified instead of just cutting and pasting and place our views.

All along I am a name sake brahmin only. So, you must consider yourself much qualified to place your views and learn from others - than many like me here.

Cheers..

 

[Nara]

.... and the jobs like washing etc etc, may be the reason for a group of untouchables.

Vannan is a ஊர் jaati, not a panchama.

 

[Ramansrini]

When we see Himalayas, Ganges, or any holy places, we can experience a profound silence in our mind. We do chanting, bajan, prayer, or meditation in the temple to create similar vibration.

If you have a nice spiritual discussion, you will experience the silence in your mind after discussion. Arguments always disturb this silence..

We all know everybody have different opinion, that is the beauty of creation. I like PVRaman comments.
கருத்து பரிமாற்றத்தில இதெல்லாம் சகஜமப்பா.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Ravi,

I am batting for you. I am not batting for Sri. Nara.

When I saw Sri. Nara's comment, I thought my message was mentioned there. Not only I wrote a ridiculous message, but also mentioned 'Bull!!' along with my message. Only the children use that kind of language. Sri. Nara took that in his stride.

Sri. Nara realised he was a bit too harsh on a youngster, so he wrote this:-

"Dear Ravi, you are probably younger than my youngest child, so let me take a little bit of liberty here.

I was hard on you and for that I offer my apology. Age does not matter for saying sorry, I do that all the time to my children also.

IMHO, the correct attitude is not to go into your shell, but take this as a challenge and learn. Ask more questions instead of declaring your own personal views. Provide supporting evidence when you do express your personal views.

Hope you will continue to be your cheerful self..."

He requested you not to go into your shell does not mean this :-

"Despite of my clear reasoning for my decision, if Sri Nara ji, considers me having negative attitude and a meek & discouraged young man trying to hide myself in shell doesn’t seems to degrade me and aggravating me to reply?"

It is an encouraging phrase commonly used in the English speaking countries. I use the same phrase to my children. It is very unfortunate that you are not exposed to that phrase. It is not commonly used in India.

Sri. Ravi, it takes a great person to make an apology. Sri. Nara made an apology and reiterated it 'unconditional'. I don't know whether you know the magnanimity of an 'unconditional' apology. It is big. Sri. Nara sincerely likes you to feel cheerful. I request you to kindly check the meaning of the phrases. You will know for yourself.

I am putting down this whole thing as the language barrier. Had we been talking in Tamizh, this would not have happened.

 

[RVR]

Come on youngsters. Sometimes, we old people don't talk sensibly. We may have fixed ideas. You are the future. Don't take anything personally. Close the past and look for the future.

All the best

 

[Nara]

"Is it possible that they just look at Vedantam and not bother about rituals, which is not to the same as rejecting poorva mimamsa?"

Sir, i only know that they say rituals are not important. But they are not averse to rituals. Infact if someone is in great difficulty, prayers or havans (homams) are recommended by some gurus. They worship Rama, Krishna, Shiva, Parvati, Lakshmi, all deities. Every living soul we see on earth are divine souls to them.

[..]
Its possible that only for moksha, they do not consider rituals to be the path.

So can we conclude that they do not reject poorva mimamsa as invalid, and only that it does not help in anyway for moksha? In this case, the difference between the Ekadandees you cite and other ubhaya mimamsakas, if we can call them that, seem only technical.

"Do you know of any branch that views poorbamimasa rituals as a direct and independent mokshopaya?"

i think the namboodaris are purely poorvamimansakas. .... they are purely followers of Jaimini's Mimansa Sutra.

I was not aware of this. I was under the impression they were similar to the smarthas.

All the monastic traditions we see today, either take the Semi-Badrayan route (that is, together with rituals) or they take the Pure-Badrayan route (that is, with no rituals upon sanyasam).

Here I must say that Jaimini sutra is not even a member of the Prastana Thraiyam. So, to that extent, the difference between the Vedantins you are citing, and the Vedantins of Advaitham, Visihtadvaitam, and Dwaitam, is very peripheral, in a philosophical POV.

I know SV's are pure Vedantins, no direct mokshopaya through poorva mimamsa riutals. From what Shir KRS and Anand are saying this is so for Sanakara Matam as well. So, I am not able to go with your Semi- and Pure- categorization.

In any case, my own personal POV is, there is no soul at all. We are no more than vehicles for genes to survive, get mixed, and carry on. When the body ceases to function we cease to exist.

If there was a personal god, there is no reason why he should hide from us.

Cheers!

 

[Vamanan]

While westerners are very good at research and analysis, their basic tendency is to split...to set Indian against Indian..I have seen it in a few European friends of mine too...So I caution our friends to take all western analysis with a pinch of salt..the methodology will be fine...the manner will be crisp...the meaning...well...it is to show that they are the masters of the world...as a matter of fact, as of now, they are...and they can continue being so until Indians think only of past divisions and foster present continuous dissensions
Completely dominated by them, some of our Kaundiya Gotras and Srivatsas (just for example), are really Robert Clive gotras and Betrand Russell Putras! Konjam Upanishad Gnaanathil Kulithaal, Indha juram vidalaam...Remember Ram Mohan Roy, India's first world citizen...When he died in England, he was still found to be wearing his yajnopaveeta!

 

[happyhindu]

Let us invoke Nandanaar and Thiruppanazhwar to bless all of us. Let us all worship the above two Dalith saints to nurse the past wounds. Let the present day Daliths also forget the past and look for the future.

Sir, they do not want to be called dalits, they do not want to be called former untouchables, they do not want to remain dalits or under the tag of 'dalits'.....that is the problem.

i do not think other hindus are interested in brahmanism. their spiritualism is limited to chanting rama, krishna, doing some poojais, or getting some prayers done. a rare few are interested in doing some yoga and a bit of meditation.... in general as long as they have their 'dabbulu', life is complete for them....and generally their focus is money, education, the next bigger house, the next better car, etc...

only a section of the so-called dalits, seem to be the ones that require some form of re-addressal...i mean, money and social betterment does not seem to suffice for them, they need something more - from the scriptural pov...

 

[happyhindu]

So can we conclude that they do not reject poorva mimamsa as invalid, and only that it does not help in anyway for moksha? In this case, the difference between the Ekadandees you cite and other ubhaya mimamsakas, if we can call them that, seem only technical.

Yes sir, i think so....i don't know abt the technicalities, i request you to meet some of them and speak to them in person...its very hard to phrase or explain such things in writing. As far as i know i can only say that yes they do not consider poorva mimansa as valid only for moksha....but then there are some avadhootas that do not consider poorva mimansa as valid even for producing worldly results, they are purely shaivites.

I was not aware of this. I was under the impression they were similar to the smarthas.

The namboodiris also profess to be similar to smarthas. Only historians who have studied poorva mimansa sects seem to throw some light on how various practices evolved..

Here I must say that Jaimini sutra is not even a member of the Prastana Thraiyam. So, to that extent, the difference between the Vedantins you are citing, and the Vedantins of Advaitham, Visihtadvaitam, and Dwaitam, is very peripheral, in a philosophical POV.

yes sir, i think the difference is in the approach.

I know SV's are pure Vedantins, no direct mokshopaya through poorva mimamsa riutals. From what Shir KRS and Anand are saying this is so for Sanakara Matam as well. So, I am not able to go with your Semi- and Pure- categorization.

The semi and pure categorization that all monastic traditions either take the semi-badrayan route or the pure-badrayan route is purely my own POV. Just an observation. Since i notice that sanyasa traditions either completely reject ritualism or combine ritualism with vedanta-yoga.

As far as the Shankara matts are concerned, sir, i am not feeling like continuing any discussion on the subject. To conclude, all i can say is that Smarthas are considered to be followers of Smrithis, giving more importance to Smrithis (dharmashastras) than Shrutis (Vedas); and there are various reasons why the Shankara matts are considered to represent poorva mimansa teachings more than that of vedanta (some of which we have already discussed). If you wish sir, we can continue the discussion over private messages, about the differences in teachings. But am afraid that they can come across as my own POVs. Therefore, i request you to speak with Ekadandis of Non-Shankara Matts for a clearer picture.

Also sir, within the monastic traditions, there is this unsaid code of conduct. No one will openly say the other person's way is invalid or wrong, or not adhering to shastras (that is shastras that each follows with their own interpretation). They will only say "we follow this" and will explain their ways. If you were to question further, they will say "no we do not follow it" and will explain why they think that the other path does not result in moksha.

They are ok with defining brahman and brahminhood, according to their own teachings. At the same time, they are very careful not to openly reject the teachings of any sect or to cause any animosity. Prodding further will only result in silence. One example: if one were to ask these ekadandis abt where Shri Adi Shankara attained samadhi, they will say it was the Himalayas, and will explain abt His life and teachings, etc. But if you were to tell them that 'i heard that He spent his last days in some other place in the south..', it will only result in silence.

In any case, my own personal POV is, there is no soul at all. We are no more than vehicles for genes to survive, get mixed, and carry on. When the body ceases to function we cease to exist.

If there was a personal god, there is no reason why he should hide from us.

Sir, i do believe in the soul and karma. My POV is that the body might cease to exist but the soul does not. My father also used to say why God does not appear to every single sick dying man who has a prayer on his lips. I think his views came out of frustration, of seeing so many people suffering and dying with the whole prob of helplessness surrounding things. Now he is open to understanding karma..but still he feels people shd not be made to suffer like this, he expects the whole world to be healthy, cheerful, happy -- very unrealistic utopian type i wud say. The only prayer he has to God is to keep everyone healthy, mentally corrupt-free and happy, i don't think he has prayed for himself so far (he says what do i lack that i need to pray for).

But i feel God does appear to those who seek Him, like Thyagaraja. Am doing a copy-paste here from Thiyagaraja Temple - Tiruvarur :

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tyagabrahmam took sanyasa towards the end of his life and attained samadhi on Pusya Bahula Panchami in Prabhava (6th January, 1847). There is a poignancy about his absorption into the Godhead. He says in one of the most moving songs, "Unerringly I saw Sri Rama installed on the hill...Thrilled with ecstasy, with tears of joy, I tried to speak. He promised to bless me in five days." And so it happened. [/FONT]

Only wish all of us are as blessed as Thyagaraja...

 

[pvraman]

Vannan is a ஊர் jaati, not a panchama.

My mistake. They are categorized under OBC's. And one of the divsion Vannan is also included under SCs.

"Seventy-six (76) SCs have been notified in Tamil Nadu by the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Order (Amendment) Act, 1976. Of these, fifteen SCs namely, Ayyanavar, Bharatar, Kakkalan,
Kavara, Kootan, Mannan, Padannan, Panan, Paravan, Pathiyan, Thandan, Vannan, Vetan and Vettuvan have been notified with area restriction in Kanniyakumari district and Shencottah taluk of Tirunelveli district. Kanakkan have been notified in Nilgiri district
only. Out of 76 SCs, two SCs i.e., Kakkalan and Padannan have not reported population in 2001 Census."

Arundadiar reservation: Plot to divide dalits in TN Samatha India

I am not sure, when they mention, vannans who does animal sacrifices are same as Vannans in OBCs.

Thanks

 

[happyhindu]

Dear PVR ji,

Please do not go by the OBC, SC, ST, BC, MBC, etc lists; and confuse them with Shudras and Dalits.

These lists originally were intended to be designed based on how poor each community was. The poorest and culturally isolated came under SC and tribes came under ST. The poor of all other castes, started being bracketed under different sections as BC, OBC, MBC. Now many are well off, even then they hold on to those tags because it brings them government benefits in admissions and government jobs.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Dear PVR ji,

Please do not go by the OBC, SC, ST, BC, MBC, etc lists; and confuse them with Shudras and Dalits.

These lists originally were intended to be designed based on how poor each community was. The poorest and culturally isolated came under SC and tribes came under ST. The poor of all other castes, started being bracketed under different sections as BC, OBC, MBC. Now many are well off, even then they hold on to those tags because it brings them government benefits in admissions and government jobs.

No doubt about it. Honestly I feel, betterment of one generation may not be sufficient atleast it should be sufficient enough so that insecurity is eliminated. Once the insecurity gets eliminated, we can expect some sort of peace in thinking.


But I do not understand, how shudras and dalits are not be confused with the above category?

Regards

 

[sapthajihva]

I read in one of the posts, by Shri KRS, I think, that, though the guna of the athma based on karma results in a 'varna' birth, it does not lead to infer that the athma seeks for brahmana/kshatriya/vysya/shudra families for its next birth.

He further contended that the logic fails because the current actions of such brahmana birth seems to go against it.

I think this is a wrong inference. That an athma takes birth in a brahmana family cannot be interpreted to mean that the athma searches for brahmana families. It is a natural result.

Though the brith is a brahmana birth, it then depends on how the individual is nurtured in knowledge/dharma. Though brahmanas by birth, it is not for granted that such athmas cannot be corrupted, or, any different from other jeevas, in the current birth. Everyone is subject to 'indriyangal' - but a brahmana birth is considered 'utthamam' to become a 'jitendriyan', provided he treads the right path. And that is why, the birth is an ideal route for moksham.

If birth alone grants moksham, the logic of karma does not hold up, because after being born a brahmin, a jeeva can do as it pleases. So, birth is not an escape route from karma.

Is that difficult to understand?

 

[happyhindu]

But I do not understand, how shudras and dalits are not be confused with the above category?

Bcoz in the traditional sense, kammas are considered to be so-called 'shudras' but they come under the forward caste category in all states..

These things are very subjective...

 

[RVR]

Ms.Happy Hindu ji, My replies are in blue

Sir, they do not want to be called dalits, they do not want to be called former untouchables, they do not want to remain dalits or under the tag of 'dalits'.....that is the problem.

Let them get education. Let them migrate out of villages. Once they migrate out of villages, they can drop their caste baggage also. They can even get out of the state and country to have complete liberation from caste tag

i do not think other hindus are interested in brahmanism. their spiritualism is limited to chanting rama, krishna, doing some poojais, or getting some prayers done. a rare few are interested in doing some yoga and a bit of meditation.... in general as long as they have their 'dabbulu', life is complete for them....and generally their focus is money, education, the next bigger house, the next better car, etc...

Let them have their own agenda. We are not against them

only a section of the so-called dalits, seem to be the ones that require some form of re-addressal...i mean, money and social betterment does not seem to suffice for them, they need something more - from the scriptural pov...

Who stopped them from producing a Modern Nandarar or Thiruppanazhwar. They are already in touch with Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal, a tradional mutt head. I am sure Swamigal will go out of the way to help them with spiritual inputs if they come out with their problems.

'Kanchi Acharya first pontiff to mingle with Dalits'

It is upto the dalith community to take advantage of the situation.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Let them get education. Let them migrate out of villages. Once they migrate out of villages, they can drop their caste baggage also. They can even get out of the state and country to have complete liberation from caste tag

So, that means they will get no scriptural re-dressal from the community that they consider was responsible for their "spiritual" status as "untouchables". Why? Is it just because "brahmins" wish to maintain so-called "purity"? Purity of what? Or is it because 'brahmins' want to maintain their status at the top of the varna ladder. Yes sir, there are some ppl in this day and age who consider themselves 'superior' just because they are 'brahmins'? So, am wondering if it is a case of superiority complex, but not saying it as such?

i do not think other hindus are interested in brahmanism. their spiritualism is limited to chanting rama, krishna, doing some poojais, or getting some prayers done. a rare few are interested in doing some yoga and a bit of meditation.... in general as long as they have their 'dabbulu', life is complete for them....and generally their focus is money, education, the next bigger house, the next better car, etc...

Let them have their own agenda. We are not against them

sir, the term 'agenda' can be used when one wishes to consider people as having a secretive motive. Are you saying that non-brahmins are having a secretive motive?

Who stopped them from producing a Modern Nandarar or Thiruppanazhwar. They are already in touch with Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal, a tradional mutt head. I am sure Swamigal will go out of the way to help them with spiritual inputs if they come out with their problems.


'Kanchi Acharya first pontiff to mingle with Dalits'

It is upto the dalith community to take advantage of the situation.

All the best

What is the necessity for them to produce 2 people like that, just to be able to be a part of the hindu society and vedic education? And why have 'brahmins' decided that they should control who should get a vedic education and who should not?

Am not sure merely mingling with dalits is enough. I was redirected to this website: Shastras

Regards.

 

[pvraman]

Bcoz in the traditional sense, kammas are considered to be so-called 'shudras' but they come under the forward caste category in all states..

These things are very subjective...

Kammas are like Mudhaliars, most of them are well to do. In andhra they were like zamindars. I dont know hw they are called shudras?

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Kammas are like Mudhaliars, most of them are well to do. In andhra they were like zamindars. I dont know hw they are called shudras?

Regards.

'brahmins' consider them to be as such, for that matter, 'brahmins' also consider mudaliars as such.....because those communities do not undergo the upanayanam investiture...

 

[RVR]

Dear Madam, My replies are in orange

So, that means they will get no scriptural re-dressal from the community that they consider was responsible for their "spiritual" status as "untouchables". Why? Is it just because "brahmins" wish to maintain so-called "purity"? Purity of what? Or is it because 'brahmins' want to maintain their status at the top of the varna ladder (yes sir, there are ppl in this day and age who consider themselves 'superior' just because they are 'brahmins')? Am wondering if it is a case of superiority complex, but not saying it as such?

Personally most of the brahmins living presently including me cannot claim to be `Brahmins' as per Varna. They are just brahmins as per caste system. The caste Brahmins have a better `Brand' image. Creating a Brand image is just a professional job which anybody can do it. There are several cars in the market but Benz and BMW is always considered superior brands. All other communities including Daliths can create a better brand image over a period time through systematic working.

For example `Nadar' community was once considered a most backward community. Today the community has come up very well through education and entreprenuership. HCL's Shiv Nadar is probably the richest Tamilian today and is respected by everybody including the caste brahmins.

sir, the term 'agenda' can be used when one wishes to consider people as having a secretive motive. Are you saying that non-brahmins are having a secretive motive?

I casually used the term agenda without any motive. May be the word can be substituted with the term goal or objective.

What is the necessity for them to produce 2 people like that, just to be able to be a part of the hindu society and vedic education? And why have 'brahmins' decided that they should control who should get a vedic education and who should not?

Am not sure merely mingling with dalits is enough. I was redirected to this website: Shastras

Vedic Literature is no more in the domain of Brahmin community. Everybody can learn. Today it has become a open book and anybody can learn without caste discrimination. Brahmins have no control over it.

I am a member/devotee of Sri Vaishnavi Shrine Thirumullaivaayil, Chennai.

Sri Vaishnavi Shrine, Aavadi (Chennai)

This temple doesn't follow Agama Sastras. We don't discriminate any body on caste, religion, race or gender basis. A Muslim lady can perform puja directly to Devi. The temple founder Swamy Anvanandaji (Late Parthasarathy Iyengar) hails from a freedom fighter family. He has arranged to get Upanayanam done to a NB Sri Palani and also arranged marriage with a brahmin lady for him. Few years back I attended the Upanayanam of Sri Palani's son. Sri Palani has learnt most of the vedic literature and delivers along with all other brahmins in the temple. Most of us are strongly supporting Sri Palani to run the temple as prescribed by Swami Anvananda ji.

Personally I am involved in maintaining the reforms in the above temple and none of the caste brahmins including me don't have any superiority complex . I strongly believe `caste is attached only to the body and not the soul'.

If you or any other lady not belonging to brahmin community wants to do puja in the above temple directly to the Devi, please inform me in advance and I can arrange it.

All the best




Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Personally most of the brahmins living presently including me cannot claim to be `Brahmins' as per Varna. They are just brahmins as per caste system. The caste Brahmins have a better `Brand' image. Creating a Brand image is just a professional job which anybody can do it. There are several cars in the market but Benz and BMW is always considered superior brands. All other communities including Daliths can create a better brand image over a period time through systematic working.

For example `Nadar' community was once considered a most backward community. Today the community has come up very well through education and entreprenuership. HCL's Shiv Nadar is probably the richest Tamilian today and is respected by everybody including the caste brahmins.

So sir, it finally does come down to branding, and an 'image factor'. I thot only a few right wing youngsters were bothered about such branding. And why shd there be 'branding'? Is there 'branding' in spiritual studies?

How can one create a better brand image if the so-called untouchables are condemned in the hindu scriptures?

Vedic Literature is no more in the domain of Brahmin community. Everybody can learn. Today it has become a open book and anybody can learn without caste discrimination. Brahmins have no control over it.

No sir, am speaking of the matts. Why are the Shankara matts (or rather Kanchi mutt in particular) controlling vedic education only to select people ?

I am a member/devotee of Sri Vaishnavi Shrine Thirumullaivaayil, Chennai.

Sri Vaishnavi Shrine, Aavadi (Chennai)

This temple doesn't follow Agama Sastras. We don't discriminate any body on caste, religion, race or gender basis. A Muslim lady can perform puja directly to Devi. The temple founder Swamy Anvanandaji (Late Parthasarathy Iyengar) hails from a freedom fighter family. He has arranged to get Upanayanam done to a NB Sri Palani and also arranged marriage with a brahmin lady for him. Few years back I attended the Upanayanam of Sri Palani's son. Sri Palani has learnt most of the vedic literature and delivers along with all other brahmins in the temple. Most of us are strongly supporting Sri Palani to run the temple as prescribed by Swami Anvananda ji.

Personally I am involved in maintaining the reforms in the above temple and none of the caste brahmins including me don't have any superiority complex . I strongly believe `caste is attached only to the body and not the soul'.

If you or any other lady not belonging to brahmin community wants to do puja in the above temple directly to the Devi, please inform me in advance and I can arrange it.

All the best

Thank you for the kind invitation. I shall definitely visit the temple on my next visit to Chennai.

Regards.

 

[pvraman]

'brahmins' consider them to be as such, for that matter, 'brahmins' also consider mudaliars as such.....because those communities do not undergo the upanayanam investiture...

My family is having close association with Mudhaliars, and there by I have lot of Mudhaliar friends. Not only me, there are many many brahmin friends they have. Who eat out in each other's house. My parents too have no problem in eating in their home. Never once we felt or called them Shudras. It seems, this things will be kept alive.

I wonder when this sub-castes were branched out from the main 4 varnas.

I really dont understand, why 96% still need brahmins approval to call off the untouchability. In any internet site, westerner scholarship scholars, missionaries, christians, muslim preachers all blame hinduism & squarely point the finger on brahmins for this dalits problem, even at the time brahmin has no control over anything.

I understand (from net stories) that so called brahmin power is due to their holier than thou attitude and purity. Earlier they wielded power by being close to the kings. Once the kingdom concept and zamindar, Prabhu systems fallen, I dont know how still we show them as power centers. As a community brahmin did not have power as for as my experience goes and memory goes. Christian missionaries are doing the conversion. After conversion still they are dalit christians.

Some villages like uthapuram (famous for the wall dalit vs pillais) is not due to the brahmins influence.

pls see this
"
Salem (Tamil Nadu), Sep 8 (IANS) Tension gripped a village in this Tamil Nadu district Monday after a Hindu temple was thrown open to Dalits on the orders of the Madras High Court, prompting the protesting upper caste Vanniyar community to leave the village, officials said.Trouble arose after a temple dedicated to Hindu goddess Draupadi in Kandampatti village was opened to Dalits Monday on the orders of the court after being locked up for nine months due to a dispute with the upper castes overtemple entry, police sources said.

Read more: Tension grips Tamil Nadu village over Dalits’ entry into temple

Dear Smt HH Ji,

While I acknowledge there is untouchability, due to my experience I refuse to believe (just by going through the western people or missionaries books) that only because of brahmins it has happened. It may be true or not, i don't know, once it may or may not be cause. I have not come across a good unbiased report.

Its not fair to keep the dalits in a shadow and telling them all their miseries are due to brahmins without positively helping them. It is not going to bring the changes we wish just solving the Dalit's problem. We have do major changes which is acceptable to all types, not only waiting for brahmins to do the changes.

I place my arguments still farther, Srilankans tamils are not having lot of brahmins (we can say as no percentage), but untochability is there.

Bali hindus are following hinduism with 4 varna system. there is no problem among them. Many people ask " where is indonesia in Bali"?

There is no thread ceremony
No untouchables
You can not differentiate by appearance who is what? *
Priests are selected after passing out the exams,

The priest after examination converted from vysya to brahmana.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"There are few old literatures that in Bali we call "Lontar" which came from the basic Hindu literature i.e. Manava Dharmasastra (Manu Smrti), Bhagavadgita, Sarasamuscaya, etc. The main lontar is "Eka Pratama" which talks about change in varna to become a Brahmana, after Diksa ceremony. PHDI (Parisada Hindu Dharma Indonesia) gives a permit for this case and offers a certificate [to certify a person as a brahmana]. All of Hindus priests in Bali have to pass a PHDI examination before they receive a registered certificate. Beside, other varnas (Sudra, Vaishya, and Kshatrya) no one can assign. So the point is, in Bali (nowadays), people of any varna can become a brahmana, if they are able to do their profession as priest. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As I said before the "status quo" group in Bali still does not receive priests come from other castes, just from brahmana caste. But most of people in Bali do not care for this. They chose a priest that they believe is a good one, whatever their origin. What do you mean by "untouchables"? If you mean it like Brahmana varna have a special right from government or anything like that, the answer is no!"[/FONT]
​

More here: Shastras.

Not only this, the chief priest maybe brahmin, the asst priests are from other varnas and ladies too....The chief priest also comes occasionally all rituals are done by the asst. priests


Regards

 

[RVR]

Madam, My replies are in blue.

So sir, it finally does come down to branding, and an 'image factor'. I thot only a few right wing youngsters were bothered about such branding.

How can one create a better brand image if they are condemned in the hindu scriptures?

I have seen lands which were condemned and not useful for anything. For example in a school at Tsunami affected area, the land was considered useless. But we consulted an expert and he made it into a cultivable land.

In the same way we can always take that part of Hindu scriptures which are non-discriminatory and use it to the advantage of all.

My earnest request is forget the non-relevant scriptures. I believe in the following statement of Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law



No sir, am speaking of the matts. Why are the Shankara matts (or rather Kanchi mutt in particular) controlling vedic education only to select people ?

Traditional mutts are bound by certain customs and practices. Paramacharyal has written lot about it. He use to direct people to Ramana Maharishi because the latter is not bound by the rules and regulations of the mutt. He deviated from the traditional path of promoting only sanskrit by Kanchi mutt and gave importance to Tamil Bakthi Literature.

Sri Jayendra Saraswathi is doing lot of reforms. For example he offers food through Samabandhi Bojanam to all devotees irrespective of caste which was not the case earlier.

Let us hope further reforms will take place in the future and even spiritual food is offered to all.



Thank you for the kind invitation. I shall definitely visit the temple on my next visit to Chennai.

It is a non-traditional temple with pure bakthi and devotion without any discrimination. Please give me advance information so that I can book a pooja which you can personally perform. I am sure you will remember the experience for ever.

Regards.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear PVR ji,

My family is having close association with Mudhaliars, and there by I have lot of Mudhaliar friends. Not only me, there are many many brahmin friends they have. Who eat out in each other's house. My parents too have no problem in eating in their home. Never once we felt or called them Shudras. It seems, this things will be kept alive.

I think they do not consider themselves Shudras either. But I have heard of 'brahmins' referring to them as such. Same goes for Nairs, they do not consider themselves as Shudras, but 'brahmins' decided to call them shudras. For that matter, Paramacharya also calls Mudaliars as Shudras: Jatis - Why so many Differences ? from the Chapter "Varna Dharma For Universal Well-Being", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

I wonder when this sub-castes were branched out from the main 4 varnas.

I wonder if castes can be linked to varna at all. Can you please tell me why do you think a priest should be called a brahmin?

I really dont understand, why 96% still need brahmins approval to call off the untouchability. In any internet site, westerner scholarship scholars, missionaries, christians, muslim preachers all blame hinduism & squarely point the finger on brahmins for this dalits problem, even at the time brahmin has no control over anything.

No, they do not need 'brahmins' to call off untouchability. They want to be a part of the hindu society. And they want the right to pursue spiritual studies in hindu shastras, which some 'brahmins' are opposing.

I understand (from net stories) that so called brahmin power is due to their holier than thou attitude and purity. Earlier they wielded power by being close to the kings. Once the kingdom concept and zamindar, Prabhu systems fallen, I dont know how still we show them as power centers. As a community brahmin did not have power as for as my experience goes and memory goes. Christian missionaries are doing the conversion. After conversion still they are dalit christians.

The holier than thou attitude is not restricted to 'brahmins' alone. My mother's sister said she wud prefer to be dead rather than see the times when non-brahmins become priests. But these old people only sit around and mop about how badly kaalam kettupoyirukku. Am glad my younger folk only knows the name of their own caste (thanks to reservations policy) and do not even know the castes of their closest friends (they only know to differentiate b/w 'tamil vaalu' and 'telugu vaalu' and even that some do not seem to know). So you see, conservatism comes in all forms, and so does modernization.

Dalits will be called dalits in christianity, islam, sikhism, any religion they convert to - as long as their origin, that is hindusim, does not cease treat them as 'dalits'. And that hindusim can reverse, only by admitting them to vedic education in schools run by matts.

Am not sure why priests are called brahmins, but if these so-called dalits think that by becoming priests, they can finally move away from being called 'former untouchables' so be it. Why should anyone stop them? Its nice that atleast some of them are showing interest in hinduism, instead of blindly converting to other religions.

Some villages like uthapuram (famous for the wall dalit vs pillais) is not due to the brahmins influence.

People will continue to treat the 'dalits' as 'dalits' as long as they are not admitted into the hindu fold...no point blaming the 'non-brahmins' now, instead of looking at the scriptures from where it all began..

While I acknowledge there is untouchability, due to my experience I refuse to believe (just by going through the western people or missionaries books) that only because of brahmins it has happened. It may be true or not, i don't know, once it may or may not be cause. I have not come across a good unbiased report.

Its not fair to keep the dalits in a shadow and telling them all their miseries are due to brahmins without positively helping them. It is not going to bring the changes we wish just solving the Dalit's problem. We have do major changes which is acceptable to all types, not only waiting for brahmins to do the changes.

But sir, the scriptures were produced by people who cud write in sanskrit, and the only ones following dharmashastras in the present times are brahmins...that is where it all begins from. No point obfuscating, playing the blame game, or turning a blind eye.

I place my arguments still farther, Srilankans tamils are not having lot of brahmins (we can say as no percentage), but untochability is there.

Bali hindus are following hinduism with 4 varna system. there is no problem among them. Many people ask " where is indonesia in Bali"?

Please can you understand that the social set up of Srilanka and Bali are really different from that of India. And i have always felt that Srilankan Tamils are far more cultured than Indians. Which probably is why the majority resisted and rejected untouchability and caste rubbish. Esp in modern times, its almost nill. And definitely untouchability in Srilanka is not as pronounced as in India.

I think its better to look at our own country first, the state that we live in, instead of comparing with other countries.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Madam, My replies are in blue.

Sri RVR ji, please do not call me madam. You are so much older than me. It feels awkward. I tend to use 'sir' in the context of 'arya' and more as a term of respect, not taking the english context of 'sir' into account...Am comfortable with informal addressing, but just being careful since not everyone might like it that way...

I have seen lands which were condemned and not useful for anything. For example in a school at Tsunami affected area, the land was considered useless. But we consulted an expert and he made it into a cultivable land.

In the same way we can always take that part of Hindu scriptures which are non-discriminatory and use it to the advantage of all.

My earnest request is forget the non-relevant scriptures. I believe in the following statement of Mahatma Gandhi

Gandhi said, "My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired .... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense" (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246). Yet Gandhi was only following Hindu law

Is it possible to forget the non-relevant scriptures sir? And who decides what is relevant and what is non-relevant? And if one scripture quotes other scriptures, can the parts in the other scriptures be amended? Isn't it a long drawn scenario?

Sir, Gandhi was an idealist. And most of us are the same too. We like to see romance, love, togetherness, happiness, unity, friendship...why then sir, should there be a section that is made to feel strife, anger, sadness, dejection, etc just bcoz some scripture has condemned them even when they are not grown adults, but even if they are just small babies, just for their birth?

Traditional mutts are bound by certain customs and practices. Paramacharyal has written lot about it. He use to direct people to Ramana Maharishi because the latter is not bound by the rules and regulations of the mutt. He deviated from the traditional path of promoting only sanskrit by Kanchi mutt and gave importance to Tamil Bakthi Literature.

Sri Jayendra Saraswathi is doing lot of reforms. For example he offers food through Samabandhi Bojanam to all devotees irrespective of caste which was not the case earlier.

Let us hope further reforms will take place in the future and even spiritual food is offered to all.

i also hope spiritual food is offered to all....hope people learn to love and accept one another...

It is a non-traditional temple with pure bakthi and devotion without any discrimination. Please give me advance information so that I can book a pooja which you can personally perform. I am sure you will remember the experience for ever.

Thank you very much sir. I will definitely get in touch with you.

Regards.