Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[RVR]

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Ms.Happy Hindu ji,

Let us not go too much deep into the past scriptures. Frankly speaking I don't know much about it.

There were only four Varnas and there was no discrimination between varnas. There is no fifth varna as per Bagavath Geetha which most of us know very well.

If somebody wants to classify present day daliths into fifth varna, we will oppose such classification.

At the same time there are positive episodes involving Nandanar and Thiruppanazhwar which we will project probably to greater heights to carry the daliths also with us. We will help them come up in life to the best possible extent. My earnest feeling is literacy and migration out of villages will give them better status atleast now. Beyond that we cannot do anything.

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Thanks for the link, indeed he has mentioned. Anyway, that does not change mine.

I wonder if castes can be linked to varna at all. Can you please tell me why do you think a priest should be called a brahmin?

Certainly!. He can not be called father or imam. Sorry.. just kidding.

I am not a frequent temple goer, I go sometimes to sit and enjoy the strange smell and calmness. I don't know you may think differently, I have been to temple and spent some time without saying hello to the god which has more followers. I am allergetic to crowd. I am contemplating, I should feel guilty or not. And I also feel sometimes, can i lead a life of a Gurukkal, for me it looks very tough. So I wont be able to takeup if an offer comes my way.

No, they do not need 'brahmins' to call off untouchability. They want to be a part of the hindu society. And they want the right to pursue spiritual studies in hindu shastras, which some 'brahmins' are opposing.

In my personal opinion, i understand the plight of those. I have lived very close to them and observed. I think about my father who finished HS, joined a job, working without taking his head up against odds, and took VRS once we came up. He never knew what a Brahman priest should know, he was no scholar, no community help, no advantage of the brand, no reservation help. But his 40 years work gave us a back saving life and a put us on the catapult.

For Harijans, Instead of pressuring to get to know veda, through matts, Now Govt helps, and there is a wide awareness, instead of shouting for everything, if they get educated and do a govt job continuously, their next gen will be in a much better position to mingle. If they really show their generosity to help their other members, without help of anybody, they can be in a good position within two generations. This is very much possible, if they dont become prey to the political and pagutharivu & podhunala thondu kalin trap.

My father had to sacrifice 60 years (including after shocks of the job) and it was all it took to change our positions. I have nothing more to say about Dalits plight, as I don't think the modern society is so rigid. Like forign NGO's or missionaries, we should not take the happening in a remote village as a index for the entire Tamilnadu. This younger gen, without fighting should get educated and join a job, thats all it takes.

And that hindusim can reverse, only by admitting them to vedic education in schools run by matts.

Let them study first then let them decide, if they want to study veda or study oracle. When it comes to that position we can look upto Matam or any org which will make them a priest.

People will continue to treat the 'dalits' as 'dalits' as long as they are not admitted into the hindu fold...no point blaming the 'non-brahmins' now, instead of looking at the scriptures from where it all began..

They have to first rebel calling them Dalit instead of Harijan first, but keepers of Dalits and missionaries, and so many anti hindus will not even let them change their name.

But sir, the scriptures were produced by people who cud write in sanskrit, and the only ones following dharmashastras in the present times are brahmins...that is where it all begins from. No point obfuscating, playing the blame game, or turning a blind eye.

There are few brahmanas who may follow dharmasastras. In Brahmin itself there are two, one is priest class and other Job-Workers. While Job-Worker brahmins does the work outside, priests tookup the post of priest inside temple.They are not many proportionately. Harijans have to live in a society where there are not only brahmins and others are also there. Hence for their welfare they should have a smooth merging with other communities too, thats more important.

i have always felt that Srilankan Tamils are far more cultured than Indians. Which probably is why the majority resisted and rejected untouchability and caste rubbish

Though 50% of the tamils are of one caste, still they have caste rubbishes very well alive and kicking. That too without a helping hand of brahmana. Even though they migrated 2 BC. Historians suggests they brought all the hindu structures (similar to buddah) along with them . But many people here discount the ethnic tamils (dont like the division), would like to maintain that all came from mohenjadaro.

I think its better to look at our own country first, the state that we live in, instead of comparing with other countries.

When you have a good model, we can compare and implement the good things, thats why our ACM, & Ministers often visit to singapore and other countries. I think its no harm.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Thanks for the link, indeed he has mentioned. Anyway, that does not change mine.

It might not change anything for you personally bcoz of your personal relationships.

Certainly!. He can not be called father or imam. Sorry.. just kidding.

I am not a frequent temple goer, I go sometimes to sit and enjoy the strange smell and calmness. I don't know you may think differently, I have been to temple and spent some time without saying hello to the god which has more followers. I am allergetic to crowd. I am contemplating, I should feel guilty or not. And I also feel sometimes, can i lead a life of a Gurukkal, for me it looks very tough. So I wont be able to takeup if an offer comes my way.

No sir, i do not think the job of a priest is tough. Ask a man doing a labour intensive job, like toiling in the fields or doing a cleaning job, he wud readily exchange his job for that of a priest.

In my personal opinion, i understand the plight of those. I have lived very close to them and observed. I think about my father who finished HS, joined a job, working without taking his head up against odds, and took VRS once we came up. He never knew what a Brahman priest should know, he was no scholar, no community help, no advantage of the brand, no reservation help. But his 40 years work gave us a back saving life and a put us on the catapult.

If you understand their plight, in what way do you think they can be helped?

If at all untouchables were those ex-communicated for wrong-doings, then i think the law makers of the past were most cruel.

Nowhere in the world wud you find a judiciary that sentences a criminal's descendents to be punished as well.

What does a new born baby know about itself, that it needs to be stamped with the label 'untouchable' at birth?

And we, inhuman as ever, find ways to justify this system. And claim it to be dharma. Everything is in the birth, wow, what a system. Am not surprised anymore that former untouchables hate hinduism so much.

For Harijans, Instead of pressuring to get to know veda, through matts, Now Govt helps, and there is a wide awareness, instead of shouting for everything, if they get educated and do a govt job continuously, their next gen will be in a much better position to mingle. If they really show their generosity to help their other members, without help of anybody, they can be in a good position within two generations. This is very much possible, if they dont become prey to the political and pagutharivu & podhunala thondu kalin trap.

Why cannot the present day 'brahmins' help? Why do you want only the government to help? Am surprised they still want to be hindus actually. And we still keep them at bay. If they want access to vedic education from matts, why are some present day 'brahmins' opposing?

My father had to sacrifice 60 years (including after shocks of the job) and it was all it took to change our positions. I have nothing more to say about Dalits plight, as I don't think the modern society is so rigid. Like forign NGO's or missionaries, we should not take the happening in a remote village as a index for the entire Tamilnadu. This younger gen, without fighting should get educated and join a job, thats all it takes.

Yes, thank God they have democracy. Otherwise imagine a life where they are made to do jobs they do not like to do, even today. Imagine you are condemned to do the same job all your whole life...i don;t know what sort of a system is this that allows a 'brahmin' to take up arms or trade (or any job they like), but does not allow others to change jobs. Sorry, if this sounds like very strong words, but i think this system must be the first example of corruption in the spiritual world.

Let them study first then let them decide, if they want to study veda or study oracle. When it comes to that position we can look upto Matam or any org which will make them a priest.

When they are already requesting to be considered for admission to vedic schools, why are the mutt heads refusing or putting it off ? Am surprised such a section has not joined hands with politicians yet.

They have to first rebel calling them Dalit instead of Harijan first, but keepers of Dalits and missionaries, and so many anti hindus will not even let them change their name.

It does not matter what they call themselves. That's not the issue. Once they are part of the mainstream hindu society, nobody will bother what they were called in the past - dalit or harijan.

There are few brahmanas who may follow dharmasastras. In Brahmin itself there are two, one is priest class and other Job-Workers. While Job-Worker brahmins does the work outside, priests tookup the post of priest inside temple.They are not many proportionately. Harijans have to live in a society where there are not only brahmins and others are also there. Hence for their welfare they should have a smooth merging with other communities too, thats more important.

All smarthas are supposed to be followers of dharmashastras. Does not matter if they are job-workers or priests. All this sheer talk is mere obfuscation, to me.

Though 50% of the tamils are of one caste, still they have caste rubbishes very well alive and kicking. That too without a helping hand of brahmana. Even though they migrated 2 BC. Historians suggests they brought all the hindu structures (similar to buddah) along with them . But many people here discount the ethnic tamils (dont like the division), would like to maintain that all came from mohenjadaro.

No sir, you are not right. The Ltte was made up of predominantly the hill tamils who were looked down upon by the Jaffna tamils for being 'low caste' or to put it correctly i shd say 'labour class'. The system was based on the fact that the hill tamils were brought to lanka as plantation workers or indentured labour from india. Where as Jaffna tamils were always wealthy and classy. Whatever was the class difference, all the tamils could not remain disunited during the sinhalese onslaught.

Sir, by talking abt mohenjadaro, politicians, ltte, other religions, misionaries, etc....i think you are just deviating from the core issue.

The core issue was abt caste system. Yes it is the biggest and greatest weak link in hindusim. I suggested that the negative effects can be reversed by admitting so-called dalits to vedic schools. You have already expressed your views. Am able to sense the lack of willlingness to accept such a scenario, though you have not said it as such. But i got the message. I suppose that should suffice and we can stop here.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

So you still want to keep them under the tag 'dalits'. And you do not seem to consider what will happen if everyone migrates out of villages. You do not want to give them 'better status' in their own place of stay.

But anyways, I got the message sir.


Ms.Happy Hindu ji,

I just want to have one word. I never wanted them to have any tag except `human tag'.
If the Government is not providing better status in the place of living, why should they bother about villages and should look for better pastures elsewhere.

This is my message.

All the best

 

[[email protected]]

To:RVji, Your replys are very good, for every thing we should not expect Govt to do ,Some one should take responciple and do the best for them. s.r.k.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH JI,

No sir, you are not right. The Ltte was made up of predominantly the hill tamils who were looked down upon by the Jaffna tamils for being 'low caste' or to put it correctly i shd say 'labour class'. The system was based on the fact that the hill tamils were brought to lanka as plantation workers or indentured labour from india. Where as Jaffna tamils were always wealthy and classy. Whatever was the class difference, all the tamils could not remain disunited during the sinhalese onslaught.

little search in tamil would have helped.

மாணவர் காங்கிரஸ் என்கின்ற பெயரில் வறண்டி பேரின்பநாயகம், எஸ் நடேசன்,
எம்.பாலசுந்தரம், நாகையா போன்றோரால் உருவாக்கப்பட்டது. இவர்களது நோக்கம்
அந்நியரிடமிருந்து விடுதலை பெறல், இனவாதத்தினை இல்லாதொழித்தல், தமிழரிடையே
தீண்டாமையை ஒழித்தல், தமிழ்மொழியை வளர்த்தல். இவர்கள் இலங்கையிலே முதன்முறையாக
1924ம் ஆண்டும், 1913ம் ஆண்டும் நடாத்தப்பட்ட தேர்தல்களைப் புறக்கணிப்புச்
செய்தனர்.

???????????? ?????? - ????? ???????? | Google Groups.

இந்திய பார்ப்பனர்களைப் போல் அல்லாமல், யாழ்ப்பாண சாதியக் கட்டமைப்பில் நிலத்தைத் தம் வசம் வைத்திருந்த வெள்ளாளர்களே ஆதிக்க சாதியினராக இருந்தனர் இந்தியாவிலிருந்து கோயில் ஆகம காரியங்களுக்காக வெள்ளாளர்களால் அழைத்துவரப்பட்ட பார்ப்பனர்கள் வெள்ளாளர்களுக்குக் கீழாகவே சாதியப் படிநிலையில் இருந்தனர். வெள்ளாளர்களுக்குக் கீழான சாதியினை அவர்கள் குடிமக்கள் சாதியினராகவும் அடிமைகள் சாதியினராகவும் பிரித்திருந்தனர். குடிமக்கள் சாதியினர் வெள்ளாளர் வீடுகளில் வேலை செய்ய அனுமதிக்கப்பட்டனர். அடிமைச்சாதியினர் தீண்டத்தகாதவர்களாக இருந்தனர். பறையர், பள்ளர், நளவர் என இவர்களே அடிமைச்சாதியினர் எனத் திட்டவட்டமாக அறியப்பட்டனர். இவர்களுடன் அம்பட்டர், வண்ணார் ஆகியோர் சேர்ந்து பஞ்சமர், ஐந்து சாதியினர் என்பதைக் குறிக்கும் பொதுப்பெயரில் அறியப்பட்டனர். ஆய்வாளர்களும் இலங்கையில் தலித் எனும் பதம் அங்கீகரிக்கப்பட்டதாக இல்லாததால் பஞ்சமர் எனும் சொல்லிலேயே தலித் அடையாளத்தைக் குறிப்பிடுகிறார்கள்.

??????? ?????????? ??????? ???- ???????, ?????????

Unfortunately in the absence /domination of brahmin, parties like dk & dmk could not sell their products there.

Sir, by talking abt mohenjadaro, politicians, ltte, other religions, misionaries, etc....i think you are just deviating from the core issue.
The core issue was abt caste system. Yes it is the biggest and greatest weak link in hindusim. I suggested that the negative effects can be reversed by admitting so-called dalits to vedic schools. You have already expressed your views. Am able to sense the lack of willlingness to accept such a scenario, though you have not said it as such. But i got the message. I suppose that should suffice and we can stop here.

Regards.

Please read the above passages and think about your opinion on Brahmin-the creator of untouchables.

I do not want to add anymore,

My views.

There are caste boundaries which is a reality, the thick line will be thinned and eventually faded will be possible only with financial independence in the present day. There are facilities from government. Good minded people instead of கொம்பு சீவுவதை விட்டு help them genuinely without creating hatred, if they really want to get rid of Dalit tag.


Regards

 

[happyhindu]

I just want to have one word. I never wanted them to have any tag except `human tag'.
If the Government is not providing better status in the place of living, why should they bother about villages and should look for better pastures elsewhere.

This is my message.

All the best

Am sorry sir, but i think that if everyone left villages, i may not get rice on my plate if there is no one left in villages to grow it..

little search in tamil would have helped.

மாணவர் காங்கிரஸ் என்கின்ற பெயரில் வறண்டி பேரின்பநாயகம், எஸ் நடேசன்,
எம்.பாலசுந்தரம், நாகையா போன்றோரால் உருவாக்கப்பட்டது. இவர்களது நோக்கம்
அந்நியரிடமிருந்து விடுதலை பெறல், இனவாதத்தினை இல்லாதொழித்தல், தமிழரிடையே
தீண்டாமையை ஒழித்தல், தமிழ்மொழியை வளர்த்தல். இவர்கள் இலங்கையிலே முதன்முறையாக
1924ம் ஆண்டும், 1913ம் ஆண்டும் நடாத்தப்பட்ட தேர்தல்களைப் புறக்கணிப்புச்
செய்தனர்.

???????????? ?????? - ????? ???????? | Google Groups.

இந்திய பார்ப்பனர்களைப் போல் அல்லாமல், யாழ்ப்பாண சாதியக் கட்டமைப்பில் நிலத்தைத் தம் வசம் வைத்திருந்த வெள்ளாளர்களே ஆதிக்க சாதியினராக இருந்தனர் இந்தியாவிலிருந்து கோயில் ஆகம காரியங்களுக்காக வெள்ளாளர்களால் அழைத்துவரப்பட்ட பார்ப்பனர்கள் வெள்ளாளர்களுக்குக் கீழாகவே சாதியப் படிநிலையில் இருந்தனர். வெள்ளாளர்களுக்குக் கீழான சாதியினை அவர்கள் குடிமக்கள் சாதியினராகவும் அடிமைகள் சாதியினராகவும் பிரித்திருந்தனர். குடிமக்கள் சாதியினர் வெள்ளாளர் வீடுகளில் வேலை செய்ய அனுமதிக்கப்பட்டனர். அடிமைச்சாதியினர் தீண்டத்தகாதவர்களாக இருந்தனர். பறையர், பள்ளர், நளவர் என இவர்களே அடிமைச்சாதியினர் எனத் திட்டவட்டமாக அறியப்பட்டனர். இவர்களுடன் அம்பட்டர், வண்ணார் ஆகியோர் சேர்ந்து பஞ்சமர், ஐந்து சாதியினர் என்பதைக் குறிக்கும் பொதுப்பெயரில் அறியப்பட்டனர். ஆய்வாளர்களும் இலங்கையில் தலித் எனும் பதம் அங்கீகரிக்கப்பட்டதாக இல்லாததால் பஞ்சமர் எனும் சொல்லிலேயே தலித் அடையாளத்தைக் குறிப்பிடுகிறார்கள்.

??????? ?????????? ??????? ???- ???????, ?????????

Unfortunately in the absence /domination of brahmin, parties like dk & dmk could not sell their products there.

Please read the above passages and think about your opinion on Brahmin-the creator of untouchables.

I do not want to add anymore,

i have not transliterated your text and read it, i only hope we can concentrate on our country and state, instead of talking about how others live...no am not saying that only brahmins are the creators of untouchables, every hindu played a role in that medley. everyone is equally responsible.

My views.

There are caste boundaries which is a reality, the thick line will be thinned and eventually faded will be possible only with financial independence in the present day. There are facilities from government. Good minded people instead of கொம்பு சீவுவதை விட்டு help them genuinely without creating hatred, if they really want to get rid of Dalit tag.

there are good minded people genuinely helping the downtrodden without creating hatered. as long as a religion keeps them designated as 'dalits' no amount of financial help is going to help them get rid of that tag - this is just a humble opinion. i do not wish to talk about this topic anymore.

just wanted to say this (esp to PVR ji and RVR ji):

I have edited out my immediate previous posts. Am sorry i allowed anger to get the better of me. Someone close to me wanted to know why i am so obssessed with the caste topic and wht i am going to get out of it. I know its a waste of time. I sincerely apologise if i have caused any hurt to anyone. I suppose i am unrealistic and utopian as well. All i wish is that everyone has equal opportunities in life and lives a fulfilling life. But it does not mean that i cause hurt to others. Am unable to see differences in people based on caste, gender, money, learning, etc. I understand that everyone cannot think on the same lines. I also understand that things cannot change overnight. I sincerely pray that everyone finds peace within themselves. This caste and religion topic is not making me feel peaceful. So i am giving it up. My apologies again. Best wishes to all of you. Peace.

 

[Nara]

.... Someone close to me wanted to know why i am so obssessed with the caste topic and wht i am going to get out of it. I know its a waste of time. ......... This caste and religion topic is not making me feel peaceful. So i am giving it up. My apologies again. Best wishes to all of you. Peace.

Dear HH,

I know it is tough, but this is what gets the juices flowing and the wheels turning. It may seem a waste of time, but who knows some of this may make a connection sometime and may make a difference. Even if one mind gets changed it is worth it.

Keep fighting the good fight....

Peace to you too my friend ...

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji

I am sorry if my posts hurt you. Every post of yours made me think hard, yesterday i spent much of my time only to answer your posts,

I am amazed with your knowledge, and I wonder how on earth I am going to know about those things...

Thanks

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri PVR, Greetings!

[....]
இந்திய பார்ப்பனர்களைப் போல் அல்லாமல், யாழ்ப்பாண சாதியக் கட்டமைப்பில் நிலத்தைத் தம் வசம் வைத்திருந்த வெள்ளாளர்களே ஆதிக்க சாதியினராக இருந்தனர்

Thank you for this link, quite interesting.

I think this shows how insidious the caste system is. Unlike racism, where there is clear distinction between whites and non-whites, one is superior and the other is inferior, etc., caste system is a multi-layered hierarchical system. The difference between adjacent layers may be minimal and may even get reversed due to circumstances. But, in general, castes in the lower rungs are kept down by the weight of all the upper castes above them.

The binary nature of racism allows for a greater level of solidarity among the oppressed -- they all belong to the oppressed race. But in caste system, each caste gets to oppress everyone below it, so they seem to acquiesce getting dominated by those above it.

The brahmins sitting on top, in most cases, may very well not directly oppress anyone. There are others who will do it for them. But the benefit surely accrues upward. Everything seems normal and placid. The system works to perfection. Even good people get convinced there is nothing wrong. They even convince themselves this is the best way to run an orderly society and even the lowest of the low must be happy about it.

This is probably the reason why in some cases adjacent castes interact with each other as though there is no difference. A not so observant brahmin and not so observant upper caste NB may not even overtly notice any caste difference. But it is there, always, lurking inside. The interactions extend only to some extent, never crossing the invisible lines that are there for everyone to see.

Of course, the level of acquiescence is directly proportional to how high you are on the totem pole. The ultimate effect of this is, unlike the case of binary racial grouping, it is extremely hard for any opposition to this system to coalesce.

The Sri Lankan case you have cited shows that agama brahmins were treated inferior by the Velala NB. That makes perfect sense. This is probably true all through history. The political and economic power Brahmins held came only upon the upper caste NB's ceding it. They did it out of the value they placed on their advice. This, they extended to the entire caste. But they surely did not show the same respect to a temple priest as their minister. In the case of Sri lanka, they imported only the priests and therefore probably did not feel the need to extend them the courtesy they would have if they also had brahmin advisers.

If your point is Brahmins are not solely responsible for the system of oppression, you will not get any argument from me. But, that does not mean Brahmins need not face their responsibility for the oppression they unleashed by providing the needed intellectual basis for it, and benefiting from this insidious system where all the dirty work of oppressing is done for them by others.

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Nara Ji,

Greetings,

Anybody who can operate computer and browse through various articles, readily accept what you have written. Because not a single website I come across say something opposite to that, atleast to the main theme. You have told it very mildly and gently.

I write my post based on today's situation. IMHO, the castes are now in a parallel system, and not in the triangular hierarchy as it was before (as for as my reading goes in the internet - Not a single postings I found against this Triangular theory where the brahmins are at the top. Moreover, the westerners, Buddhists etc etc mention Hinduism as Brahminism only).

These times, people are busy in taking care of their own individual welfare as Govt's facilities are very well reaching the corners of oppressed castes. I can not say BC & OBCs are in a bad shape, but, I am afraid it will take another generations for the OBCs and SCs STs to gain a better position.

If at all Brahmin can do something, could be only in the form of temple priest position. I am telling my personal view only. Like in Bali, boys from many castes can be invited to learn and conduct poojas and work as asst. priest for some time. During which period the Head priest can do the all main poojas. Slowly let them takeover if they are interested. I hope this is the final work which is pending for the complete reformation and it will be revolutionary.

Sir, regarding your comments on the import of brahmin priests, didn't brahmana kept everybody under control by holding the priest's position? Thats what I understand from the net articles. Plus, when we read the Brahmins entry into tamilnadu, it started with priest hood only - in 3rd or 4thCE according to the various references available in net.

Regards

 

[sapthajihva]

It is what one perceives it to be.

'Insidious' is the term used by Shri Nara to describe the caste system. It implies that the system, inherently discriminates.

Why then, do we have the good and the bad? Laws to enforce? Extending this logic, we cannot even enforce anything on an individual, let alone term it as good or evil.

We seem to limit our acceptance of such classification only to which our physical senses lead us to. It seems all logical to talk about the reality before our eyes.

Inspite of all such hoopla over caste discrimination, we neglect to see beyond...

First of all, to reject the caste system is to reject the Vedhas, which are Apourusheya. If it is such, then there is no argument. I end my case. I have crossed swords with Shri Nara on this topic... it does not behove for a debate if the fundamental points are itself different and either party do not compromise on such premise.

But if we can accept that there are Sath/Rajo/Thamo gunas, why the hesitation in realizing that it is the inherent nature of the athma, which fulfuls its karma through the gunas?

By saying this it does not imply domination of the gunas over the other. Sadly, that is what is practised now... thamas followed by rajas taking over sathwam.

People have been herded to believe that discrimination is taught in the scriptures. I need not speak about the practice of christianity in the medieval period or about islam's attitude to kafirs. People seem to take these in their stride, but hold a strong grievance against the caste system and its presumed perpetrators, the brahmanas.

The feeling of empathy is a wonderful thing - at the same time, if erroneously applied to work out the cause of thigs, leads to a wrong conclusion.

What we have, is a history intentionally maligned, to weave a web of delusion to break the structure of our dharma. Brainwashing.

It is probably the mark of a 'learned' that one speaks ill of the Vedhas and to consider the caste as discriminatory. It is readily accepted that a minority could suppress the majority; examples are quoted. In quantum physics, every experiment is different by its very nature; due to the variables involved. Examples, by themselves do not prove the case.

Why are we, brahmanas, so ready to take the cudgel against caste at every opportune moment?

Anybody who says that should be ready to discard his 'upanayanam' and completely disregard the scriptures. Selective 'cut and paste' method will not suit. Having the upanayanam and chiming in saying that 'caste discriminates' is hypocrisy.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sapthjihva:

Greetings.

First couple of points of total and 100% agreement:

First of all, to reject the caste system is to reject the Vedhas, which are Apourusheya.

and

Having the upanayanam and chiming in saying that 'caste discriminates' is hypocrisy.

Next a clarification:

'Insidious' is the term used by Shri Nara to describe the caste system. It implies that the system, inherently discriminates.

Here is what I mean by insidious:

"operating or proceeding in an inconspicuous or seemingly harmless way but actually with grave effect"
​

By this what I mean is that even good people fall into this trap of casteism and sometimes engage in horrendous actions.

Why then, do we have the good and the bad? Laws to enforce?

This makes sense only under the premise, the caste one is born into itself determines being good or bad, and hence must suffer whatever enforcement that comes his/her way. Such a premise cannot be taken as true just by assertion. Further, the need for such a horrific premise is what makes the caste system insidious.



Questions about thrai gunas are to be answered by those who accept the premise.

People have been herded to believe that discrimination is taught in the scriptures. I need not speak about the practice of christianity in the medieval period or about islam's attitude to kafirs.

Why go to medieval period, Catholic church was complicit even in the great wars of the twentieth century, not to mention genocide in the Americas. The other denominations are equally dreadful. Organized religions have a lot to answer for. The least guilty or even guilt free are the so called primitive religions where there is a clear barter, like praying to aiyanar for rain in exchange for padaiyal.

What we have, is a history intentionally maligned, to weave a web of delusion to break the structure of our dharma. Brainwashing.

Well, well, what can I say, the grass I guess is gray on the other side!!!

... It is readily accepted that a minority could suppress the majority; examples are quoted.

This is not quantum physics. The limits of human knowledge, so eloquently demonstrated by QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, does not have any bearing on the point about the minority's ability to dominate the majority. It only took a few thousand Britishers to dominate the entire subcontinent. This is indeed not proof that the minority Brahmins dominated the majority NB's. But it sure tells us it is possible.

But in this case of casteism, it is actually the majority that ruled over the minority because there was an elaborate system of duties and privileges, and those who had the raw end of this deal with few privileges and a cart load of duties, were the minority.

Add to this other evidences and the reality even to this day, and we can get a broad picture of what most likely happened.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Sri sapthajihva said:
"First of all, to reject the caste system is to reject the Vedhas, which are Apourusheya. If it is such, then there is no argument. I end my case. I have crossed swords with Shri Nara on this topic... it does not behove for a debate if the fundamental points are itself different and either party do not compromise on such premise.

But if we can accept that there are Sath/Rajo/Thamo gunas, why the hesitation in realizing that it is the inherent nature of the athma, which fulfuls its karma through the gunas?

By saying this it does not imply domination of the gunas over the other. Sadly, that is what is practised now... thamas followed by rajas taking over sathwam."

There are many inherent fallacies in these statements.

1. Vedas do not mention 'caste' system. They talk about different Varnas and only the Purusha Suktham in Rg Veda talks about the four classifications and charecteristics without establishing whether they are birth based. Some scholors believe that even Purusha Suktham was later inserted in to Rg Veda.

2. Satyakama Jabala's story in the major upanishad - Chandogya - definitively establishes that charecter alone makes one a Brahmin. There is no other major Upanishads or the four Vedas that say anything about Varna is by birth. So it is decidedly wrong to make a statement "If one does not believe in caste system one does not believe in Vedas".

3. Gunas apply only to this life. They are not part of vasanas carried between births. Ones's mix of gunas in next life is decided by Ishwara. And again, as we can see all different people on earth exhibit different mixes and predominance of various gunas. There is a belief that if one follows the vedic upbringing, through anushtanams one can increase one's sattvic qualities. But it has also been observed one can not really escape one's basic nature but for a very few exceptional people. Atma does use the inherent nature to fufill it's karma. But the problem arises when one argues that different castes have different predominant gunas. This does not make any logical sense. I may loosely buy a theory that the four varnas have four predominant/mix of gunas, but only if it is associated with the belief that there is no Varna by birth in to a particular caste. Even then, I would accept this as an ancient theory not really applicable to today's world.

4. To interpret the Vedas and Upanishads only in one way is not correct. They have been inquired in to and interpreted by so many different rishis/scholors. Varna/caste is one such area where our rigid social practice has done more harm than good. There are many differeing views out there on this topic. I think that a society will only practice what is useful to it. Nowadays we are all talking about castes because it is useful to a lots of folks in the society to get certain benefits. We are so far away from the notion of Varna it is not even funny to compare castes and varnas anymore.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

HH Said

just wanted to say this (esp to PVR ji and RVR ji):

I have edited out my immediate previous posts. Am sorry i allowed anger to get the better of me. Someone close to me wanted to know why i am so obssessed with the caste topic and wht i am going to get out of it. I know its a waste of time. I sincerely apologise if i have caused any hurt to anyone. I suppose i am unrealistic and utopian as well. All i wish is that everyone has equal opportunities in life and lives a fulfilling life. But it does not mean that i cause hurt to others. Am unable to see differences in people based on caste, gender, money, learning, etc. I understand that everyone cannot think on the same lines. I also understand that things cannot change overnight. I sincerely pray that everyone finds peace within themselves. This caste and religion topic is not making me feel peaceful. So i am giving it up. My apologies again. Best wishes to all of you. Peace.


Ms Happy Hindu ji,

I don't know why you feel apologetic. It is normal discussion involving probably a sensitive topic on `caste' within Hinduism. I earnestly feel there is nothing wrong in discussing things involving the relevant groups.

Like untouchability in India, apartheid was practiced in South Africa very recently. Every society has its own historic baggage which they are forced to give at one point of time. India has definitely moved forward and I am sure will give up the wrong things in due course.

Please be at peace since I earnestly feel you have not committed any thing wrong

All the best

 

[pbkhema]

for some humour on the caste system and a little did at TBs you can read Chetan Bhagats Two States which is a best seller

 

[pvraman]

Caste

Dear Sir,

Its a attempt to understand the prevailing caste system. I am not bringing Vedism here as I feel, its a not their real target. The bullet meant not to reach this.

Varnas became diluted as the population went on swelling and various occupations led to various groups which eventually became classes. As the population exceeded beyond the point of living by one's own occupation, the survival within one's profession became very difficult, so migration from one class to other class began. Probably during that time, the classes started to become rigid to safeguard ones own interest. People always try to come up in the caste triangle or rectangle only for the material comforts and status. Thanks to the solution offered by the politicians, the very people who always want to come up to the upper caste (this too- by the modern blogs and articles) will now firm to remain in lower caste. After these many years, still more than 75% remain in a miserable condition while their keepers zooming to become one of the richest in world.

In all castes we are finding upper, middle, lower classes. Upper will have freedom to act as they wish and the other two can not question them, because the lower will mostly have rebellion attitude out of frustration or devote, only the middle class remain in the same caste seeing the two extremes. Now, those who are in the lower rung of each community see all the possibilities for survival, including changing one's religion. We are still seeing the ration system swelling from aringnar anna durais "Roobaiku oru padi, now became 1 kg rice for two rupees." (how many years gone by). The number of ration cards are growing, claims of reforms are bogus. The real benifits are not reaching the middle and the lower rung? our politician are keeping them happy with occasional free veity and selai and biryani and and money on the election day.

The working class not concerned with what jati, they are in fact, having certain amount of pride. If you ask any of the upper or middle class members of any jatis to get converted to higher class jati, (here I mean, a person who asks and is asked should be same level financially)

How many of you think that they will say yes? (Please do not reply till you read the last line of this post).If only the financial comforts reach them, that will end all the caste talk.I humbly request you not to mix untouchables in this theory, theirs a different story.

IMHO, Castes will remain and it is good for Sanadhana Dharma, if the lowest class people made financially independent with a good profession.

regards

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir,

We are seeing a lot of hostility aimed at hinduism. Nobody can argue. I have some doubts, when the power changed from hinduism to buddism which ruled india for centuries which predominantly anti brahminism anti castism, would have broken moral and commitment of brahmins. But after those centuries again Hinduism came up, and the castism remained? Is it possible for the brahmin priests to endure and keep the same focus to control even after centuries and after witnessing the better culture?. Is there any support documents?. As per the chinese travellers script, at the time of decline of buddism, they mention that the society lived in harmony!.

"A Record of Buddhistic Kingdoms" and esp their account on the indian society during 4CE could give a clue.

Arab travelers were coming to kerala initially, the kings were kind with them and offered place to build their religious building and accepted to marry the local girls and settle. when they muslims also followed, who brought a casteless religion, why they could not sell like hotcakes. The muslim introduction was not sudden, it was gradual through arabs. So, were the brahmins were force enough to prevent all to remain in their oppressive jatis. Even Periyar told the people to switch over to Islam. Then why, the wealthy Naiker did not do it himself first.

"In one of Periyar's booklets titled "Islam is good for abolishing the disgrace in human relationship" based on his speech to railway employees in Tiruchirapalli on March 18, 1947, ...." Periyar E. V. Ramasamy and religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[pvraman]

Untouchables

Dear Sir,

We often hear that untouchables are because of varna system. I look at the present day dalits. Do you find any difference in the general features. As per the manu, the outcastes, were the one, who did the mixed marriages, who defied the written code. We take it as it is and everywhere this code is implemented which is very unlikely in the absence of self discipline, will not the castes look a mixed group.

Why the chandalas were untouchables in those days. Here is an account "According to Fa Hien, a Chinese Buddhist pilgrim who visited India in the early 4th century AD said Throughout the country the people kill no living thing nor drink wine, nor do they eat garlic or onion, with the exception of Chandalas only. The Chandalas are named 'evil men' and dwell apart from others; if they enter a town or market, they sound a piece of wood in order to separate themselves; then, men knowing they are, avoid coming in contact with them. In this country they do not keep swine nor fowls, and do not deal in cable; they have no shambles or wine shops in their market-places. In selling they use cowrie shells. The Chandalas only hunt and sell flesh. Thus indicating even by then they have been segregated from the mainstream society as untouchables."

Ref: Chandala - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, IMHO, it does not seem to be the handy work of manu, it seems that in the absence of the powerful judicial systems in those times, this kind of practices were prevailing.

The act of putting blame on Hinduism by the missionary and so many different avenues, is not fair. As the times change, they are not as they were and the same to each and every castes.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara ji, RVR ji and PVR ji,

Thankyou for the posts.

I do not want anyone reading my posts to misunderstand me or take the things that i post to heart.

I may be able to differentiate and keep personal things seperate from topics such as history, but others may not.

At the end of the day, i just feel that its all just not worth it. We can argue either way for all our lifetime, but i don't feel anything fruitful will come out of it.

Instead whatever i have been able to do in my capacity, i will continue to do.

I practiced no differences based on anything. And all i can do is to go back to being what i was - just a foolish person searching for god.

Best wishes and regards.

 

[Ramansrini]

Happyhindu,

I agree your point. I value Indian family tradition, but our mind should be broad enough to respect all.

We join our hands and say namaskar/Vanakkam, it actually means "I bow to God in you; I love you and I respect you, as there is no one like you."

 

[sapthajihva]

Greetings Dear Shri Nara,

This makes sense only under the premise, the caste one is born into itself determines being good or bad, and hence must suffer whatever enforcement that comes his/her way. Such a premise cannot be taken as true just by assertion. Further, the need for such a horrific premise is what makes the caste system insidious.

It is not some layman who makes the assertion, rather a divine source. Of course, you do not believe the source and hence your inference is natural. But that is not enough to make your claim valid.

This is not quantum physics. The limits of human knowledge, so eloquently demonstrated by QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter, does not have any bearing on the point about the minority's ability to dominate the majority. It only took a few thousand Britishers to dominate the entire subcontinent. This is indeed not proof that the minority Brahmins dominated the majority NB's. But it sure tells us it is possible.

As you know, a possibility is not a certainty.

But in this case of casteism, it is actually the majority that ruled over the minority because there was an elaborate system of duties and privileges, and those who had the raw end of this deal with few privileges and a cart load of duties, were the minority.

Could you please elaborate on the privileges enjoyed by the brahmins - material or otherwise, simultaneously highlighting the required life-style?

Add to this other evidences and the reality even to this day, and we can get a broad picture of what most likely happened.

It remains only a likelihood and not the reality.

Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

There are many inherent fallacies in these statements.

1. Vedas do not mention 'caste' system. They talk about different Varnas and only the Purusha Suktham in Rg Veda talks about the four classifications and charecteristics without establishing whether they are birth based. Some scholors believe that even Purusha Suktham was later inserted in to Rg Veda.

Hold on sir... My intention was with reference to the varna and not the jathi we refer to today. I am not referring to iyer/iyengar/madhwa/namboodhiri sect... I had presumed that the word 'caste' would be understood in its context in my post.

2. Satyakama Jabala's story in the major upanishad - Chandogya - definitively establishes that charecter alone makes one a Brahmin. There is no other major Upanishads or the four Vedas that say anything about Varna is by birth. So it is decidedly wrong to make a statement "If one does not believe in caste system one does not believe in Vedas".

This is my inference from the story of Jabala:

=> If the Gothram is not known and the boy exhibits characteristics of a brahmana, consider him as a brahmana. You have ignored the basic question in the first place - "What is your Gothram?". So, it is clearly by birth that the varna passes on. The application of behaviour/characteristic is only an exception to the rule, a proviso to the section. The story in Ch. Up. is only to illustrate an exception.

=> It is relatively easy to infer from Shrimadh Bhagavadh Githa that karmas are by birth only.

3. Gunas apply only to this life. They are not part of vasanas carried between births. Ones's mix of gunas in next life is decided by Ishwara. And again, as we can see all different people on earth exhibit different mixes and predominance of various gunas. There is a belief that if one follows the vedic upbringing, through anushtanams one can increase one's sattvic qualities. But it has also been observed one can not really escape one's basic nature but for a very few exceptional people. Atma does use the inherent nature to fufill it's karma. But the problem arises when one argues that different castes have different predominant gunas. This does not make any logical sense. I may loosely buy a theory that the four varnas have four predominant/mix of gunas, but only if it is associated with the belief that there is no Varna by birth in to a particular caste. Even then, I would accept this as an ancient theory not really applicable to today's world.

I definitely agree that gunas apply only to this life. But what about the karmas that we accumulate as a result of the guna-prabhavams?? They will manifest in the succeeding births only to give a guna similar to which such karmas emanated from.

It is really a tough ask to control the senses, and through them the gunas, be it a person of any varna.

The predominand gunas that you see are the cultivated gunas of the person in this brith. It is not a natural inclination. You should not consider it in absolute as if the child grows up with unadulterated janma-guna vritthi. There are so many variables that influence the character. If one were even to slightly deviate from the prescribed karmas, it would be difficult to regain control.

I should then conclude that your understanding of the varna-by-birth theory is itself erroneous.

4. To interpret the Vedas and Upanishads only in one way is not correct. They have been inquired in to and interpreted by so many different rishis/scholors. Varna/caste is one such area where our rigid social practice has done more harm than good. There are many differeing views out there on this topic. I think that a society will only practice what is useful to it. Nowadays we are all talking about castes because it is useful to a lots of folks in the society to get certain benefits. We are so far away from the notion of Varna it is not even funny to compare castes and varnas anymore.

Truth and 'usefulness' can be mutually exclusive, depending on one's perception.

Being faraway should be a spur for us to go near; not to abandon.

Regards,

 

[Ramansrini]

PVRaman,

You mentioned historical incidents well, but people criticize the religion based on what they see in society today. We had severe untouchability in our society in the name of caste. All other religions took advantage of this situation and we lost pretty much 40% of population to other religions.(including Pakistan and Bangladesh)

I just want to share the reason for opening this forum. In US, World Religion is one of the common subject studied by the first year students in the college. I read the text book and found the following conclusion about Hinduism. The author came to this conclusion because of the cast system in Hinduism. The following text is exact line of the ‘World Religion’ written by Warren Matthews.


Since caste has been officially abolished in India, it is not fair to keep discussing it as if it were an unassailable part of Hinduism. In the past it was discussed as a part of teachings karma, samsara, and moksha. Karma is an essential part of Hinduism; caste is not.

In the past, one was thought to be born in a caste in which one remained for a lifetime. Karma held one to the wheel of rebirth and re-death, samsara. The solution was to choose the proper discipline, or yoga, that would help one again release from samsara. The effects of one’s thoughts and actions in previous lives could, perhaps, be softened or shortened in the turning wheel of life. The goal was rising through the castes over many lifetimes until one obtained release. Practicing the proper yoga helped move one toward release.

Was anyway to obtain release in only one lifetime? The answer for masses of Hindus seemed to be negative. Siddhartha Gautama, a kshatriya, found that answer too pessimistic. He later announced that he had found the way of release in one lifetime: The Buddha and Buddhism offered a more hopeful alternative to Hindu tradition

 

[Vamanan]

Among castes, the Brahmin is separate. As of now he is the Panchama if not the Chandala, at least in Tamil Nadu.
Anybody can disrespect the name of the caste at will....though no one dares to insult others publicly...however much they may talk of tumbler systems..Things have degenerated so, that even noted Brahmins badmouth Brahmins (hark Bharati's paappaanai Iyer endra Kaalamum Poache..)
The only remedy is for the Brahmin to develop self-respect and real strength.
In this regard..
This an excerpt from a lecture given by Martin Lings, an expert on the French Savant
Rene Guenon. He says....
''The sister religions of Hinduism, for example, the religions of Greece and Rome, have
long since perished. But thanks to the caste system with the Brahmins as safeguarders of religion we have today a Hinduism which is still living and which down to this century has produced flowers of sanctity''. (Quote End).

Except the Marxists (who are the enemies of all Hinduism anyway) and the DKites (whose 'love' for the Brahmins is well known), ordinary folk should
be happy with this assessment. At least there is chance of the Brahmins not having been, in the past, unmitigated demons, as made out by their malicious enemies.
This will help Brahmins live with their other brethren (I am mindfully
not using the wonted term here) without a guilty conscience. The others, on their part, need not think they are cohabiting with a class that once came either under
the parasite or reptile species.