Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[happyhindu]

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But thanks to the caste system with the Brahmins as safeguarders of religion we have today a Hinduism which is still living and which down to this century has produced flowers of sanctity''

Hope you have gone thru all the posts on this thread. And also on the thread 'brahmin (brahman) status' that was started by Justin. Not everyone will agree with the POV you have stated.

At least there is chance of the Brahmins not having been, in the past, unmitigated demons, as made out by their malicious enemies.

Hope you are right. In the past, imho, everyone was a demon. Trying to get one up on the other, much like the rat race today. While one group provided justification for it, the others went about it like task-masters at every step.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Vamanan said:-
“This an excerpt from a lecture given by Martin Lings, an expert on the French Savant
Rene Guenon. He says....
''The sister religions of Hinduism, for example, the religions of Greece and Rome, have
long since perished. But thanks to the caste system with the Brahmins as safeguarders of religion we have today a Hinduism which is still living and which down to this century has produced flowers of sanctity''. (Quote End).

Except the Marxists (who are the enemies of all Hinduism anyway) and the DKites (whose 'love' for the Brahmins is well known), ordinary folk should
be happy with this assessment. At least there is chance of the Brahmins not having been, in the past, unmitigated demons, as made out by their malicious enemies.”

Sir, Hinduism which was present at the time when her sister religions were present in Greece and Rome is not here anymore. That Hinduism is gone. What safe guarders that quote is talking about? The present Hinduism started by Adi Sankara is post dated to Jain and Budhhist domination.
The caste system was terrible. Although I have not experienced the caste discrimination, I have experienced wealth based discrimination. If one does not have any money, that should never be known to others; I did not know this when I was a pauper. I have the experiences of waiting for 2 hours for a pre-arranged appointment, after arriving well in advance; and experienced humiliations at the end of such meetings. All because, I had no money, I did not have any influence etc. I am not even talking about preferential discriminations here. That was the added to the lower castes.
Brahmins learned Sanskrit, knew Vedas etc; but did not pass it on to others indiscriminately. One has to be in a situation where the others talk in a different language and one does not have a clue about the subject. The conversation need not be connected to one in any way, still one would be anxious. Although some or part of the ‘Vedas’ had nothing useful for the lower caste, they had no idea and went through the anxiety of ‘not knowing’.
Well, this thread talks much more situations than I came up with. I am not accepting Martin Lings’s message quoted above. I am neither a Marxist nor a Dkist; I may not be one of the ordinary folks though.

 

[Vamanan]

Proof of the pudding

HappyHindu ji...why should everybody agree with me? I only pointed out that there is a different point of view too. And that too European. Is that not great?!
I too am against invidious distinctions and discrimination. But the change should come through love and sympathy...It can...and it will...

(Though I have written a work on Valmiki Ramayana, I have also written on Ramalinga Vallalar, who in his last phase, became heretical...that does not upset me...).

Yes...I have read through all the posts in the past 15 odd pages...But mere intellectual self-flagellation and research into all sort of pontiffs will not give the answer..The pontiffs are like the government officials...All the while there have been gnanis serving our people without distinction...It has been my privilege to have come into the circle of such an enlightened soul even in my teens..

For example, Kotakanalloor Sundara Swamigal, 19th century contemporary of Vallalar, was a Brahmin by birth.......But he had disciples from all castes and gave initiation to many of them......I think his Chettiar disciples built his adhisthanam...

If rules, books, proscriptions and prescriptions are your cup of tea, please get some of them changed through some dandis you mention...It may be also worthwhile in some way, though even if the seven seas were emptied, the grief of one who refuses to be consoled cannot be brought to an end.

But the great souls will need none of that...I have seen it in my life...A great sage, a Brahmin by birth, and an atyashrami by deeksha, inspired, directed and blessed many hundred of families, most of them not Brahmins....Many of them are thriving today.

Those are the values that have to be fostered...In all vyavahaarika things there will be lot of heartburn...Raghy talks about how he was made to wait...So what? Who has not suffered? Who has not felt insulted? Some were insulted on the basis of caste...some because they were dark in colour..some because they looked terrible..Some because they had incurable diseases...Some because they were penniless...But the wheel of life keeps turning, and every haughty man awaits his punishment...

In a Brahmin marriage there will be dozens who may feel that they were not properly treated, respected...It keeps on happening...Be the p.r.o who can soothe ruffled tempers...If that's what you want...

When a society learns to respect values...it will respect all those who have them...
''Neethi...Uyarndha Madhi...Kalvi...Anbu
Niraiya-udaiyavargal Meloar Paappa'' ....said Bharati..

This is not moonshine...sloppy idealism...I follow it everyday..I meet self-serving Brahmins...I meet great people who are not Brahmins...I lead my life with the good people I like..But I do not believe in the reverse discrimination that says Brahmins, past and present, are all evil....and I will stand by the last Brahmin to raise my voice against such traducers..

 

[happyhindu]

I too am against invidious distinctions and discrimination. But the change should come through love and sympathy...It can...and it will...

sir, i only wish changes could have come with love and sympathy a long time back, in pre-independent india itself.

But I do not believe in the reverse discrimination that says Brahmins, past and present, are all evil....and I will stand by the last Brahmin to raise my voice against such traducers..

there is an other definition abt 'reverse discrimination' - it does not say all brahmins, past and present are evil...it only says dalits shd get their rights in the social sphere irrespective of who else loses it - and those who lose their rights by way of not having reservations are not brahmins alone...

 

[Nara]

- and those who lose their rights by way of not having reservations are not brahmins alone...

Dear friend, you deserve a spoonful of sugar for this pithy statement. While there may be individual cases deserving of our collective sympathy, by and large I don't see the tribal unit we call Brahmins suffering economically at all. Yet, they are the ones at the forefront of victimhood. I really don't understand what the big deal is if someone is having to pay market rate for vocational training (B.E., MBBS, MCA, etc.) because they could not get in through the open quota that is ten times the size of their tribe?

Personal experience is not a measure of overall validity in this case. Nevertheless, let me cite examples from my own family. My wife's nephew wanted to do medicine, but could not because he did not make the cut in the open quota. He went on to finish his B.E. and he is quite well off. In fact right now I am typing on a laptop he wanted that my son is taking to him in India next week.

I am yet to see a single Brahmin who is not economically successful, including those who are purely into vaideeka life.


Cheers!

 

[Vamanan]

HappyHinduji..

sir, i only wish changes could have come with love and sympathy a long time back, in pre-independent india itself.

Gandhijis schemes were meant to do just that. Why did Rajaji live in a hut in Tiruchengodu...what was he doing? Why did he insist back in Salem that 'Harijans' can supervise water supply in Brahmin areas? What were the efforts going on at the Pudhupalayam ashram? Who initiated temple entry into Madurai temple...What was the extent of the opposition that was weathered? Who wrote Paraiyarukkum Ingu Tiyyar Pulayarukkum Viduthalai? Who performed upanayanam for 'Harijan' Kanakalingam? There has been no dearth of Brahmin intellectuals who asserted equality...and also worked for it. Of course in any community there will be no-changers who oppose it.
I would like to know who else is being denied opportunities in present-day Tamil Nadu?
I would also like to know which other caste is being openly defamed in Tamil Nadu?
Which other caste name has become an insult, a bad word?

Which other caste which produced three nobel laureates, astute administrators, excellent classical singers and composers, great doctors, saints, inimitable dancers, writers and film artistes is being treated as if it is a criminal, and that it must live down its past wickedness. Were not Brahmins in the forefront of industrialisation of Tamil Nadu? Did they intend to promote casteism through industry?

The quote about Rene Guenon that I brought up in the first place was to reiterate the fact that the Brahmin has indeed contributed a great deal to India...In the tumult against the caste system this cannot be forgotten...

Was not the Brahmin Rammohan Roy the first world citizen of India?
Did not the unlettered (note that) Brahmin Ramakrishna create a spiritual revolution by living the unity of all religions?
Did not the Brahmin Rukmini Devi free south Indian classical dance from the ignominy that it had slippped into and create a unique institution in Madras for the propagation of that art for any one who is interested?

Was it not K.S.Sanjeevi, a Brahmin doctor, who started the VHS, which stands as a great community effort at providing health care?

Was it not U.V.Swaminatha Iyer who re-discovered classics like Silappadhikaaram for the Tamils?

Did not the Brahmin K. Subrahmanyam achieve so much in the first decade of the Tamil talkie that he came to be considered the father of Tamil film world? Did he not make films against casteism and untouchability?

Did not Papanasam Sivan, the humble unassuming Brahmin make such an impact with his Tamil songs that people wanted to call him Tamil Thyagayya?

If they were such villains, could they have done all this and more? Can a community that is bereft of great ideals do all this?

Rights are rights....denying them to some so that they might be given to others is not right ([pun intended).

I see it plain as daylight that only values matter...caste is an artificial construct....When we see that...we can build a society free of recrimination and guilt...But who will promote values in a society that values only money?

 

[happyhindu]

Dear friend, you deserve a spoonful of sugar for this pithy statement. While there may be individual cases deserving of our collective sympathy, by and large I don't see the tribal unit we call Brahmins suffering economically at all. Yet, they are the ones at the forefront of victimhood. I really don't understand what the big deal is if someone is having to pay market rate for vocational training (B.E., MBBS, MCA, etc.) because they could not get in through the open quota that is ten times the size of their tribe?

Personal experience is not a measure of overall validity in this case. Nevertheless, let me cite examples from my own family. My wife's nephew wanted to do medicine, but could not because he did not make the cut in the open quota. He went on to finish his B.E. and he is quite well off. In fact right now I am typing on a laptop he wanted that my son is taking to him in India next week.

I am yet to see a single Brahmin who is not economically successful, including those who are purely into vaideeka life.


Cheers!

Very true sir, in my observation, i have not come across non-brahmins who are not economically well off as yet either - i mean they can very well afford to study on donation seats and can afford to study overseas....

the ones who are really poor appear to come from various classes from the lower middle class and below strata...and this includes a miniscule section of Bs and NBs; and for the most part, this section consists mainly of the dalits....so yes sir i really do wonder why shd these Bs and NBs have this sense of victimhood...

if just a few years of denial of admissions in reservations quota can bring abt this sense of victimhood, then wht abt the few centuries of denial of education, that was extended to dalits so far, in the name of dharma?

btw, hope you wud respond to vamanan's post above....to me, its just another face of victimhood, possibly coming from an underlying superiority complex or what i cannot really understand (??) ...sounds very similar to jamadagneya's ramble...and i don't feel like responding.

Regards.

 

[Vamanan]

Sabash...Panbaana Badhil

And what complex is it that hides its neck in gullt and believes it is happy? or that it is hindu?
If a Brahmin is ground to the dust, he must bear it...but if he shows the visiting card of his community, he becomes unfit to be replied to.
Exactly what the media does about the defenders of Hinduism.
And unhappiness canvasses with somebody else to do the dirty job?

 

[Nara]

.... There has been no dearth of Brahmin intellectuals who asserted equality...and also worked for it.

I see it plain as daylight that only values matter...caste is an artificial construct....When we see that...we can build a society free of recrimination and guilt...But who will promote values in a society that values only money?

Dear Shri Vamanan, Greetings!

I cannot agree with you more that Brahmins have contributed a lot in many fields. With all the accumulated cultural, social, economical, and political capital, as a society, anything less would have been downright deriliction of duty. With none of these advantages the accomplishments of the Jews of Europe are multi-fold. What is remarkable is the genius of Dalit intellectuals like Iyothi Das and Dr. Ambedkar, who rose to scholarly heights in spite of the traditional advantages of the upper castes that were beyond their grasp.

One more thing on which I agree with you 100% is that caste is an artificial construct. So it must be broken down. So, why don't you get the religious leaders such as Sankaracharyas and Jeers to declare this openly and strike down all their caste based barriers? The best way to annihilate caste is to dismantle it from the top. Remove caste from every aspect of religious life. Until you do that, you have no right to talk about rights (I also intend the pun).

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

And what complex is it that hides its neck in gullt and believes it is happy? or that it is hindu?
If a Brahmin is ground to the dust, he must bear it...but if he shows the visiting card of his community, he becomes unfit to be replied to.
Exactly what the media does about the defenders of Hinduism.
And unhappiness canvasses with somebody else to do the dirty job?

I am a hindu. And i follow the vedanta tradition. I am generally happy with life. Am sure that you should have no problem with that.

Am not hiding my neck in guilt. You have no need to make baseless personal accussations out of the blue.

Your calling card (to me) sounds just like that of jamadagni.

 

[Nara]

And what complex is it that hides its neck in gullt and believes it is happy? or that it is hindu?
If a Brahmin is ground to the dust, he must bear it...but if he shows the visiting card of his community, he becomes unfit to be replied to.
Exactly what the media does about the defenders of Hinduism.
And unhappiness canvasses with somebody else to do the dirty job?

Immersed in the deep sea of victimhood, happiness is something that you are not going to recognize even if it rose up and bit your head off.

The dirty job, the job no brahmin would ever came near, for they made their livelihood on the sweat and toil of others, is the province of the Nandanars who would rather be put to death than allowed to enter your dais of cosmic dance of persecution.

 

[Nara]

I am a hindu. And i follow the vedanta tradition. I am generally happy with life.

My dear friend, don't mind these narrow minded comments, for they know not what happiness is. To be happy is a fortune that must be savored and emulated. I wish you all the happiness in the word, though you profess to be a Hindu (just a joke)

 

[Vamanan]

Sounds can be deceptive.
Words have different meanings to different people.
Aham Brahmasmi gets as many interpretations as there are commentators and I would look for living experience, not elaborate exposition.

I also thank Sri Nara for depriving me of my right to talk about rights in cyberspace...as well as the right to be happy. How generous of him!
I have no intentions of talking to any mutt head either...As I have said in my earlier post, I consider them the bureaucrats of religion...With due respect to all of them, I don't go to meet any of them and am not inspired by any of them particularly.

As I writer, let me tell you that I have met the greatest number of writers, music composers and singers from other castes and done them a justice nobody has done...So much so they think -- 'Neenga Mathavanga Maadhiri Illai...'
As such I am quite comfortable with everybody else...
I only look at the character and values of my friends...not at their caste.
Rather than hammering away at mutts..look at this..\\
Ramsurat kumar, a Brahmin from Kashi, came to Tiruvannamalai about sixty years back...in search of spiritual attainment.

He guided thousands of people who came to him...but the Sivakasi Nadars benefited so greatly from him that they worshipped him as their Guru...At Kaanimadam, near Kanyakumari they have constructed a temple for him as thanksgiving...

Why keep looking at official postings and ask for apologies from Sankaracharyas?
They are only nominal heads. I am quite confident you yourself can get such apoloigies from them if necessary. I don;t mind at all. I don't intend to join that lobby. Nor any lobby for that matter. My swadharma is only to study, think and feel and convey...

 

[Vamanan]

This is also my last posting on this thread...Bye Bye and best of luck

 

[Nara]

..So much so they think -- 'Neenga Mathavanga Maadhiri Illai...'...

Dear Vamanan, don't you think this says it all, you are not like others?

What does this mean? All the other Brahmins are downright, S._.B's and you are not like one of them?

The reason Sankaracharyas and Jeers are important is because not many know or care about your or my personal views. Even though they are bureaucrats, as you say, their words carry a lot of weight.

You cannot claim to be progressive and at the same time defend the greatness of Brahmin culture and contribution. For the sake of honesty, you have to choose one side.

Regards!

 

[Vamanan]

The dimensions of faith

The man I spoke of had Mr.Karunanidhi's picture behind him....
He had Satya Sai's photo on the opposite wall...so that he could gaze at it whenever he could...
So does it say everything...
Ippadi Nooraayiram Vazhigalil Saadhi Abhimaanangal Meerappadugindrana...
Anbaalum Nalla Abhimaanangalaalum
Appadithaan Nadakkavendum...
For the love of high thinking and living..

Otherwise, I do not want to throw away baby with bathwater
Many regards...
Bye

 

[Raghy]

Sri Vamanan said:-

"Anbaalum Nalla Abhimaanangalaalum
Appadithaan Nadakkavendum...
For the love of high thinking and living..

I do not want to throw away baby with bathwater"

Sri Vamanan,

I am following this thread with interest. If you are a positive and forward minded person, Sir, why are trying to defend the unwanted practices of the caste brahmins?

Sir, I have voiced my personal opinions in so many posts. But as a person, I will not standby to watch someone ridiculing a caste Brahmin performing some vaideeha sampradhayams. at such a situation, that caste Brahmin has the right to believe and do what he wants to do, which is not disturbing anyone else. Actually, I got in to fist fights in such situations.

The baby for the caste brahmin is the karmas, poojas and punaskarams. One need not throw that baby away at all.

The bath water is dirty which contains caste superiority feelings, favouritism to the caste etc. 'அன்பாலும் நல்ல அபிமானங்களாலும்'.....I am sure you have approached in that fashion. In my personal experience, in Canada, I was hitched with a 'brahmana dwaeshi' at work; it took about 9 months for me to get through to him. He is one of my close friends now. We are not the only caste brahmins with forward outlook; there are millions like us. How ever, the change is not from the top. There is no policy changes announced from the top. I request you not to take my comments at a personal level, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

This is also my last posting on this thread...Bye Bye and best of luck

thank goodness, you have changed your mind.

i am gratified by your decision to stay put and keep putting your views here.

there are many times i have been bombarded with exasperating replies, and sometimes, a waggy finger from the moderators. i have learnt to shrug, and move on.

also, there are no permanent thinkalikes in this forum. each one of us has our own fix of mind, based on our own unique experiences in life.

even the best of friends quarrel at times. families quarrel all the times. but they do not abandon and go away. they stick around, to mend fences, nurse the wounds, and get ready for another fight

talk to you sometime.

 

[Ramansrini]

Every human has right to choose his/her spiritual path. Brahmin community has right to follow their tradition pooja/punaskaram. I have not heard from any NB who blamed Brahmin for this.

All other castes enjoyed the reservation system for around 60 years. I believe it is time to abolish caste based reservation. As for as this system exit, Brahmin community has right to fight for their equal opportunity. Government can provide scholarship for only economically backward families.

 

[RVR]

Every human has right to choose his/her spiritual path. Brahmin community has right to follow their tradition pooja/punaskaram. I have not heard from any NB who blamed Brahmin for this.

All other castes enjoyed the reservation system for around 60 years. I believe it is time to abolish caste based reservation. As for as this system exit, Brahmin community has right to fight for their equal opportunity. Government can provide scholarship for only economically backward families.

Nobody is willing to listen to your wish. Reservation is a vote bank politics and the beneficiary communities are not going to give it up very easily.

Brahmin bashing is a cheap political technique adopted by most of the regional parties in Tamilnadu. Let us see how long they can cheat the innocent public

All the best

 

[pvraman]

At the time of Bakti moment people tried to get elevated to the level of upper caste. But in the absense of bakti towards simplistic life, and due to the shrinking resources availability made the people run behind accumulation of wealth and money. This eduction system is aimed at it. So in order to enjoy the benifit the society will try to push themselves to backward most classes. Now the real power is money. Only swine flues and chicken kunias drive the people to temples. So this is the time, to make reforms in the temple which will greatly help the hinduism. Like, translating mantras, creating classes specifically to become archagars, roping in potential nb students teaching them Set of mantras, and life style requirement to be a archagar will equalize the psychological grudge people held, after seeing the forward caste's life style during the sultan and british rules.

Cheers

 

[Vamanan]

Shri Raghy... As you have pointed out, all feelings of superiority are bad....
Shankara says...'Maa Kuru Dhana Jana Yauvana Garvam, Harathi Nimishaad Kaalaha Sarvam'...'Dont pride urself over wealth, kinsmen, youth...In a moment Time will deprive a person of everything'...Chidambaram Ramalingam, whom I consider to be a great Brahmin though he was not born in the Brahmin caste, would say,' Kai'ura Veesi Nadappadhai Naani Naan Kaigalai Kattiye Nadandhaen'...'I thought it would seem arrogant pride to walk waving my arms....so I walked with my arms tied'...The duty of a person with a greater responsibility to higher thinking would be to evince higher feelings...character...It is more a question of duty than pride...if a man, even in his dreams, begins to pride himself over his birth..it means he is on the wrong path...VeeN Perumaigal...Avai Vaideeka Perumaigal Endraalum, Avai Jaathi Perumaigal Endraalum. AVAI JAADHI MARUPPU PERUMAIGAL ENDRAALUM, waste...'Nenjakkanakallu Neguzhdhuruga'...The stony heart must melt...if this does not happen...when the warmth of love is not there...whatever the caste of the person....he is going to dogs (Manithanin NaNbaN Mannippadhaaga....).
I thank Sri Kunjuppu for not welcoming my exit. It gives me back my self confidence..Thank you Sir...
Every moment of life gets sanctified only by a good thought, a good action...Every human has a right to such things...A Brahmin has, god willing, stronger samskaaras in this regard...May every one harbour such thoughts alone...That will make them happy, that will make others happy too...What else is there in this momentary existence of ours....Vedhangal, Bedhangalai Vilaivikka Vandhavai Alla...Deiva Naadhangalai Serkka Vandhavai...Gnaana Bodhangalai Serkka Vandhavai...
Anything that goes against this, and is petty, is not divine. Divinity does not scoff, it does not insult, it includes, it loves, it purifies.
Bhartruhari...in his great Vairaagya Shathakam would...say...''Blessed are those living in the caves and meditating on the great light...whose tears of joy are consumed by the birds that perch themselves on their laps''...(Dhanyaanaam Girikandharaeshu Vasathaam...Jyothihi Param Dhyaayatham.................etc)...
There is a great light...Man can reach it...The Vedas are the light that show the way to that light.....And the Vedas are no text alone...They are the living experience of that Divine Light...Some caste might have taken upon itself the propagation of the text of this Veda...It is however not the only channel of that Light...The Divine LIght is manifold...multitudinous...it cannot be subsumed under any caste, however great...It is like a catacylsmic flood...it is no respecter of any of man's divisions...''
As Kannadasan, even in such a commercial medium like cinema, said, 'Manidhan Enbavan Deivamaagalaam'...Not just in a manner of speaking, Man can become God...
....From my very insignificant experience, I can say...I have seen one man who became so...

 

[pvraman]

Anyone can proudly say Brahmana, if he can in this materialistic world,

Follow the simple life style of bakti,
Does Homam Yaagam for the worlds benifit abandoning idol worship which was not there during vedic times,Studying Vedas and teaching vedas to the interested students from all sections.Grooming the bright and committed students for taking the lantern further. Be an example to the society and to stop the mad rush towards materialistic accumulations.

Learning and the life education. To regain the Indians (Arya) last pride and glory stop getting intimidated by the forign people, when the world moves in a destructive path the wise men can slow down and stop the disaster with his wisdom.

These people only can command respect from others for their selfless motives and actions.

Cheers.

 

[Ramansrini]

RVR said

Nobody is willing to listen to your wish. Reservation is a vote bank politics and the beneficiary communities are not going to give it up very easily.

Brahmin bashing is a cheap political technique adopted by most of the regional parties in Tamilnadu. Let us see how long they can cheat the innocent public



I know nobody listen. I want to be like a squirrel helped in the construction of the bridge for Rama.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Vamanan, Greetings!

The internal contradictions in what you have said are breathtaking. This is what I mean by the dragons that lurk in the deep recesses.

Read for yourself:

... As you have pointed out, all feelings of superiority are bad....

Chidambaram Ramalingam, whom I consider to be a great Brahmin though he was not born in the Brahmin caste,

..The duty of a person with a greater responsibility to higher thinking would be to evince higher feelings...character...

..A Brahmin has, god willing, stronger samskaaras in this regard

On the one hand you say feelings of superiority are bad, and soon after you say that this person with superior qualities is a "great" Brahmin, even though he was not born into that caste. Why great Brahmin, sir? Why not just a great person, a wise person, without associating him with a parochial caste name?

Further, you go on to say Brahmins have stronger samskaras and that they have greater responsibility.

This kind of blind hubris is the reason why NBs as a block, in spite of so many castes among them, still uniformly dislike B's, even if they mouth a pleasant word or two face to face.

We blame the politicians as though they have ever shown the guts to lead a population into anything. They are just giving voice to their frustrations in the hopes of winning elections. They are not interested in transforming society, they want to control the levers of political power as do any average person with political ambitions.

If you want Brahmin bashing to end, stop being an arrogant Brahmin. Don't just say no, no brahmins are not arrogant, etc. Everytime you attribute great and noble qualities to Brahmins you are being arrogant. Brahmins have already lost their political power, it is high time they somehow manage to shed this arrogance also.

regards