Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

[happyhindu]

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Srinath,

Please do not indulge in mud slinging on girls based on caste. Not everyone of one caste is wrong. Not everyone of one caste is right. Its a basket full of mixed apples.

 

[happyhindu]

IMHO, Now for everybody convenience, to live a selfish life, there is caste to shield from the wrong doings.

I can not see an ancient society, living till date, as an example for peace - A Model for Ideal Living.

Sir,

Yes we are living in a decomposed model. The ancient society of varna must have served its purpose. But we are living in a jaathi model, not exactly the vedic varna model. Perhaps that is the reason why the system became decomposed. Or maybe it is the destiny, of time, of kaliyuga..

And ofcourse, ppl like missionaries, politicians, and every person who wants to take advantage of this state of decomposition will make hay out of it, for their own selfish purposes.

 

[kunjuppu]

The present day Brahmins are hypocratical. Even the so called non-brahmins have some refinement and cultural protective in their aproaches. Scores can be written about brahmin girls' undoing in the U.S.

srinath,

i would like to know more about the above post. it is too broad based and general, to make any sense to me.

- in what way are present day brahmins hypocritical?
- what is wrong if so called non brahmins have refinemet and cultural protective (?) in their approach? it is not that these have refinement that i object, but from your post, i read that these folks are not expected such. i think this is wrong attitude as NB , i feel, are just as good or bad as TBs
- can you give us a few extracts from the scores that can be written about brahmin girls' undoing in the U.S. (not at all sure what this means).

thank you.

 

[sapthajihva]

I am not clear about your view. You said we need to accept that a Varna by birth and also you mentioned a student can take a profession as per his nature.

I said that 'just as the aptitude of a student bears fruit only when put in the right course, so does the inclination of the athma' and hence they are born in like families which would further their birth reason.

Hope this is not more confusing than before!

I believe the later. I like mathematics, but my daughter hats mathematics. I do yoga and meditation everyday, but my daughter does only Puja. I can not force what I am doing.

You are here speaking about choice. For the athma, it is not a choice, but a natural evolution.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Thats why I needed to ask that question in some other thread, is the Vedas writen by Brahmana, Manusmriti is written by brahmana,

I also dont know, How brahmana placed himself in top of varna. Nowadays, i see other people are running backwards to join with the bottom of the varna. . Now the race is towards achieving the bottom of the varna, so in that direction, bramins are in the last position.

Lets not ignore the fact, after the anti-brahmin moment, logically there should be two groups, Bs and NBs. (for logical discussion). But, why in reality we have BC/OBC with 252 different types excluding SC/STs. Why not a rule can be passed on to merge all the NBs as one group and award the reservation, why they need to differentiate 252+ groups. How the 4 varnas has branched out to so many varnas only in Tamilnadu.
LIST OF BACKWARD CLASSES* APPROVED
When TN govt awards 69% reservation as opposed to 50% anywhere, why they make a law, to merge all the NB castes into one. STILL WHY THE GOVT KEEP THIS JATIS?. now there is no king to listen to brahmin priest. Its democracy, I really would like to see that.

I am really curious also to know how the 4% could control 96% in any time in the History, Original history if at all we have (not colonial and definitely not from the 21st century historians - consistent, Not showing only one village. i fail to convince myself. Is it possible?

Lets try to find out how to regain the moral, across the society, if we really believe that hinduism offers good way of life than others, lets see how to find a way to route out other foreign elements. Lets really find out, is the Brahmin caste is the real route cause for the troubles in TN? Are we comfort ourselves, as we have a shield to hide.

Dear Smt HH ji,

Coming back to the news paper article.

Why the paper focused untouchablity in Gujarat, while they are a progressing model state. Why they have choosen this time. Is it not prevailing for the many years if at all so. This is the tendency, the media loves to have with the public, this is the tendency the other religiously conversion party wants this is the tendency anti social anti patriotic forces want.

Its not against brahminism. Its against Hinduism, in favour of other reigion.

What our NGOs are doing? Why 3 forign establishment with human rights should do this survey? How many people tell the truth?.

Lets not use our own finger to damage our eyes. (tamil pazhamozi).

Everything can be undone. Lets see the ways to undo and make ours a good model for all. (ours means all of us )


Regards

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri pvraman,

In the case of intercast marriage, , what type of karma palan, the jivas which enter into that female, brought from its previous birth?

That is why varna sankara was not advocated.

Just as a drop of poison contaminates a whole vessel, rajo/thamo gunams too sway over the 'sath' when such marriages take place. That is why we see a general degradation of life. In such a scenario, it becomes very difficult for the jeeva to aspire for moksha, as there is always rajas/thamas available in plenty!

Is there any chance of this theory getting corrupted and twisted by external invasive religion?
.
.
.

Otherwise, human has the natural tendency to compare, and the differences will arise and confusion will start.

Those who do not recognize this varna dharma (mlecchaas), live life as per their own set standards. Such jeevas will keep on running the cycle of life-death... till such time they realize the goals.

It is human nature to compare; but can the truth be changed to suit such a capricious mind?

I am feeling here, the clash of interest human vs Jiva. When Jiva which has no emotion, no feelings when enters into human has all the pain, pleasure and associated feelings and actions.

??? I think you are mixing the advaitha philosophy or kaivalyam in this context of karma induced life-death cycle.

Every jeeva accrues karma over a period of time; the karma emanates itself through the physical senses of the jeeva. Here we are speaking of an athma which has accrued karma; I see no interest clash here!

Regards,

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Sapthajihva,

??? I think you are mixing the advaitha philosophy or kaivalyam in this context of karma induced life-death cycle.

Both the words are jargon (technical language) to me. I have just now started to read some of the writings.. At the moment, I have lot of backlog. I think both of the above reference, I have see after I understand a little.

In this context, I have a big confusion, I have decided to study further but, can you pls shed some light,

Characteristics of Jeeva, (with reference), if it goes to swarga/Naraga after the physical death, and after spending time, it takes rebirth or how?

Why it has emotions.

After rebirths, when it gets purified - that state is called what? Become emotionless or controlled emotion? Eternal happiness (peranandam in Moksham) is seen with the scale of physical happiness state or emotionless state?


If you can help me with this...

Sorry - I am a confused man in this area.

Thanks & Regards

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Shri pvraman,

You would find a narrative on the path a jeeva traverses in its afterlife, in the Garuda Purana.

There is another belief that swarga and naraka vary depending on each individual.

After rebirths, when it gets purified - that state is called what? Become emotionless or controlled emotion?

I suppose, you meant 'liberated' when you said that it gets purified? That is moksham.

Eternal happiness (peranandam in Moksham) is seen with the scale of physical happiness state or emotionless state?

This is what the vaishnavites believe - but the sath gunas of the Shriman Narayana cannot be counted.... let alone we try to measure it!

In advaitha, it is the nirguna state - when the athma realizes that it is brahman, that is moksham. So there is no question of any feelings or emotion for nirguna athma according to adhvaitham. It is similar to a case of mistaken identity.

The emotions/feelings etc. are explained in advaitha as the illusion which prevents us from seeing reality.

You could read the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad for some more light - the Agni Brahmana explains the original state of the universe and its evolution.

Regards,

 

[Nara]

A perfect vacuum into which rushes delusions of past victimhood and and present grandeur (may be in future).

Just imagine dear PVR, what it will be like if both of us are correct We will be a nation of arrogant ignoramuses, not knowing and not caring about it.

Cheers!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Sapthajihva,

Dear Shri pvraman,

I suppose, you meant 'liberated' when you said that it gets purified? That is moksham.

Regards,

When a jeeva attains moksham, whats his state. Perinbam means without emotions or lot of inbam?

For your other references, thanks, I will go through it first.

Thanks.

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Happyhindu ji,

Please find my reply in blue...

Shri Ravi,

i have a few questions for you:


1) How do you know that "jeevas offered to life as brahmin can be considered close to the moksham process" ?

- This is my perception. I have clearly indicated in my previous post that I am just putting forward my belief.

- One question- Why should a Brahmin Vedic scholar should be considered for solemnizing occasions? Why should he be engaged to perform Homam, Pitru Karyam, Marriages and many other. Why non-Brahmins are depending on vaathiyars for all these? Will you hire a Chettiyar or Mudalaiyar or Pillai to perform these ceremonies if they get qualified from Veda Paatshalas?

Please don't get excited and cross question me by typing in red letters. This is not at all required. I am not claiming the validity of my views as a scholar that need to be challenged.

2) Are you sure that 'brahmins' don't hurt other jeevas? By shunning non-veg - is that the only criteria to show 'brahmins' do not hurt other jeevas?

- Not only shunning non-veg, but not indulging in cruelty to other jeevas is the laid principles in general. This is not applicable only to Brahmins but to every community.

- I am not saying that Brahmins are not hurting other jeevas.... Brahmin or NB doesn’t matter in terms of behavior/practices/attitude etc. in today's world. Individuality matters. Though brahmin system advocates non-voilance, every Brahmin have their own style of living. Can we deny it? If few brahimins are violent and disgraceful, can we say that Brahmin systems are fake?

- Brahmins are distinguished by way to eating habits and that's what I have highlighted in terms of superiority of jeeva. Brahmin jeevas have more challenges in life than other jeevas. Whether a Brahmin jeeva is strictly following the laid principles is an individual issue. We should not get confused with an Individual's habits/desires and life style with that of Brahmin systems in general.

 

[pvraman]

Just imagine dear PVR, what it will be like if both of us are correct We will be a nation of arrogant ignoramuses, not knowing and not caring about it.

Cheers!

Shri Nara Ji,

I feel the above symptom is already with our (I mean- irrespective of caste) Gen next....:third:

Regards

 

[Nara]

Both the words are jargon (technical language) to me. I have just now started to read some of the writings.. At the moment, I have lot of backlog. I think both of the above reference, I have see after I understand a little.

Dear Shri PVR, Please do not misunderstand me, I am not trying to criticize. But, in a discussion it is important to have some common understanding, premise, if you will. When we start a discussion on jeeva, karma, moksha, etc. in the context of "Hinduism" a common understanding of base level facts is essential. Otherwise we end up going all over the field with misleading statements relating to pain and suffering, Vedas were written by some people, brahmana or otherwise, humans and jivas as though they can exist separately, and so on.

If someone expresses a personal opinion then there is no problem. Otherwise, a minimum level of familiarity with the different views is necessary for a fruitful discussion. In this context, I have to say, Shri Sapthajihva expresses the orthodox view most accurately.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri PVR wondered:-

"I am really curious also to know how the 4% could control 96% in any time in the History, Original history if at all we have (not colonial and definitely not from the 21st century historians - consistent, Not showing only one village. i fail to convince myself. Is it possible?"

Yes. It is possible. Knowledge vs. the lack of knowledge. When the gullible people do not know that they can not read or write, the feeling itself make them feel inferior. Have you ever noticed? the Harijans were in majority, very soft spoken and readily submissive. When the Harijan was made to wait for a long time, and when he/she did get to speak, haressed into make a quick conversation, they would be quiet intimidated. It does not take 4% to control; even 1% is ample to control through intimidation.

 

[s.srinath]

I am only talking about Brahmin Basket of Apples. It is the parental imbibing of our cultural to the children that will preserve our time honoured tradtion which is full of values. Unfortunately parents miss the bus and later on lament that their duaughters are adamant. Please read some of the threads where marriage in US broke because of the boy doing sandhyavandam like a karnataka acharam and girls insist that must move together before marriage. Where is the need for SWAYANVARAM? What we see is that Brahminical culture is sinking like a TITANIC. It is the bounden duty of every parent to bring up their children in tradtion. I do not want to an ANDAL overnight without instilling BAKTHIBHAV. Brahmins be aware.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Nara,

Dear Shri PVR, Please do not misunderstand me, I am not trying to criticize. But, in a discussion it is important to have some common understanding, premise, if you will. When we start a discussion on jeeva, karma, moksha, etc.
Cheers!

You are right. I do not posses knowledge on this, therefore I wanted some information.

I realized that it was going away from the main thread, so i will continue in a relevant thread.

Thanks..

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Happyhindu ji,

Please find my reply in blue..

Shri Ravi,


Your post can come across as a bit self-contradictory reg the point in bold. You say there are "high" and "low" castes and then you say indian govt has "equality of rights" - how can "equality of rights" be established when there are "high" and "low" castes.

I think you have considered me half-backed as per your qeustions. I couldn't feel that we need to pin point every thing. A bottom line of a statement should be enough to understand what is what.

I mean to say that Indian legal system is same for every individual irrespective of Religion, cast and creed. Every one have equal rights to live in a society and shape thier life.

High and Low cast discriminations exists within NB's. There is no doubt in that. These discriminations are adopted by people in a society (unmindful of legal laws in our country). And these discrmiminating people could mostly succeed by money power and lots of undercover activities. Obviously politics play its major role in this.

Am really curious to know on what basis have you decided that within Non-Brahmins there are "High" Castes and "Low" Castes? Who decided on the terms "high" and "low"? Let me put it this way - what makes a 'brahmin' feel that he has the right to designate varnas (based on occupations) of other people?


Backward cast my consider Schedule cast as inferior, Schedule cast may consider Schedule Tribe as inferior and many other as an example.

I am not concerned about who decided on the terms "high" and "low". This is an entirely different issue and I consider them as useless to ponder about.

Certainly we can not claim that a "brahmin" has the right to designate varnas (based on occupations) of other people. There might be many selfish motive. There is no use to debate on these issues in present scenario and come to a "NEE YA - NAA NAA" situation. These debates can in no way help us to put an end to all the attrocities happening in our society.

Please note: all else will also think in terms of high and low, but why do 'brahmins' seem to find the necessity to keep it that way 'by birth' based on scriptures.


"High and Low" concept might be purely based on selfish motive.

Basically we can say that we in mejority had better interpersonal skills [ Intelligence, patience, presense of mind, non-violence attitude, cleanliness etc) than other NB's during old days. Now every one is in par with each other.

That's why I am not interested to go through scriptures. Few understanding by way of acquired knowledge was enough for me to understand myself as what is what.

From the beginning, I believe that many of the scriptures (pertaining to this subject) subject are ambiguous and we may doubt, blame, support as we could understand and just keep arguing with each other.

But nothing would be fruitful.

I already mentioned in my previous post (am adding something more to this) and underlining the answer to your question:

At the same time, please do not kid me by asking me to consider old posters like Saab and Sesh as brahmins. Why should i? Simply bcoz of their birth, or their intellect (which is more or less same as mine) or bcoz they do some rituals? Am not even touching upon our conduct. And what makes anyone think that people like Saab, Sesh, Sbala actually have the right to designate others' varnas ? based on what ?

This, sirs, is the base reality. People do not want their varnas to be designated by those who they think have no right to do so.

Whether valid or invalid and whether right or wrong, basic human psychology can never be ruled out.

In short, in this material world every society is selfish. Learned and independent people would not care. Uneducated and poor people from every society suffer from the existing social system and political practices.

Let me also ask this:
Do you want to be called a brahmin bcoz an artificial system of shastric injunctions was created (by 'brahmins') that designated and positioned themselves as people at the 'top of the hirearchy'? And that too, by birth?


- Placing ourself "top of the hirearchy" is outdated. No use in justifying its sensibility in support or in against. The present condition is revealing as how and where we were wrong in the past for which we are still bearing the brunt. In fact we have been totaly considered out of the society

Methinks, 'brahmins' want to designate other people's varnas so that they can remain 'brahmin' (??).

- Brahmins are always brahmins. Nothing can be ruled out that are all associated with Brahmin systems. Designating varnas may be wrong, but that is not the only tool to consider ourself as Brahmins.

Sir, what are the social interests that 'brahmins' are protecting?

This, I think we have to discuss with our "Shankracharya Matt, Sringeri Swamigal Mat and ******* for better understanding.

If required we can think of incepting "Naveena Brahmin Samajam" to empower our self.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Shri Raghy,

(pls, beware of my posting below - only a friendly exchange )

Sri PVR wondered:-

Yes. It is possible. Knowledge vs. the lack of knowledge. When the gullible people do not know that they can not read or write, the feeling itself make them feel inferior. Have you ever noticed? the Harijans were in majority, very soft spoken and readily submissive. When the Harijan was made to wait for a long time, and when he/she did get to speak, haressed into make a quick conversation, they would be quiet intimidated. It does not take 4% to control; even 1% is ample to control through intimidation.

Lets belive that brahmanas oppressed the harijans.

Lets see the imagine the Vedic period.

We argue that brahmana dominated all by sanskrit scriptures and rituals.

Varna system says shudra should serve other castes esp brahmins.

So when they serve brahmana, they should have a common language ( I assume that time only sanskrit was there), since there were 4 varnas, shudras were not 96% but assume the appropriate % after deducting ksatriyas and vysyas and they were not untouchables as they serve other castes also. Nowhere it is writen that they are oppressed.

2) We also think, brahmanas are scholors because they have access to scriptures, all the teachings were in sanskrit. But I am sure, the languages in India including Tamil & English are not created by Brahmanas.

3) To dominate Tamil shudras (sorry i hate to discuss in this language but only for getting clearity), how the brahmanas used their scriptures, unless they show some miracles like magician, will they believe, we have learned lot of excellent intelligent kings. Will they get fooled. And interestingly, how brahmanas can get close to each king with different language and dominate that society.

4) We know till last generation there was no birth control in our society. even then today we are only 4%. Then what could be in ancient times.

5) I do not see any evidence, that the people of malayalam, tamil, kannada, telugu, marati, etc etc were oppressed by brahmins oppressed the other society is something I am totally not convinced, because of the distribution. Population also varies with each segment.

I still feel that the untouchables are not the same as shudra varna and they never came into this varna system. Then only, it makes some sense why other NB castes is against SC/STs. There is a difference you can feel within NBs and SC/STs.

I think, SCs/STs never joined with the society and they were tribes originally, who slowly came towards the society may be due to the natural reasons, due to many other reasons. I am convinced to refer my village, we had all type of varnas and untouchables also. (I am not clear, if they are untouchables in practical sense, which i will confirm during this month end) but there was this category too.

They may be opposed by all the 4 in Varna system, thats why they became untouchables. Otherwise explaining about a society who till last gen were not having any access to mainstream is having no logic. Besides, there is no rule or logic described this tribes, i dont think this is created by brahmanas (is also not fair)

So, the varna system does not anyway come across this particular tribe, so we may have to discuss for convincing answers.

(disclaimer: the above is not supported by any books, a reckless thought)

Regards

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri pvraman Ji,

There are various claims by different historians about how the dalits came about. Some (mostly dalit historians) believe that they came about by the 'aryans' defeating the 'dravidians' and those defeated were driven to the outskirts of villages/towns and were forced to do demeaning jobs.

However other historians/religious leaders believe (and this looks more plausible to me) that the dalits were created out of the initial castaways in the Hindu society, who were 'chandalas'. These were normally a couple, for example, where a higher caste women married a lower caste men. Their offsprings were also considered as chandalas. Slowly these outcastes probably involved others who did heinous crimes punishable by being thrown out of the villages/towns. Some who converted to Buddhism/jainism in areas where these religions driven out by Hinduism subsequently by force, probably also were banned like this.

These people, then had to turn to very menial jobs/trades that no one else would do within the villages/towns.

This is why I think Dalits do not fit in to any varnas.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri RVR,

IMHO, reservation policy in education and government jobs is not equal to crucifixion of the present generation of brahmins. No brahmin is prevented even from practicing untouchability in his/her life. Since Vedas represent cultural heritage, Vedic trusts are granted tax exempt status even though they continue their exclusionary practices based on caste.

One of the reasons Brahmin bashing continues today is the brahmins continue with their holier-than-thou attitude and behavior. The B's have not come to terms with the Varna based oppression over centuries. Even now there are many who continue to rationalize with statements like varna system was a benign one devised for the harmonious functioning society.

There probably were and still are many NB land owners. But, till about a couple of generations back, most B's lived on the patronage of kings and the hard labor of dalits. No B land owner ever tilled the land, or did any backbreaking work. The dalit farmers were dutifully filling their குருணி season after season and B's either sat on their backside and enlarged their bellies, or engaged in such tasks as trade or lending at usury rates, or took up 10 - 5 p.m. clerical work for their white skinned masters -- talk about Brahmin occupation.

The push back for the 1968 incident was led by Vinobha Bhave followers including by one Mrs. Krishnammal Jagannathan, a dalit. She was awarded the alternate Nobel prize last year. The communist B's are B's only to the extent I am a B. There is nothing in this incidence for B's to be proud of. If anything, the murderous nayakar land owners were probably advised and represented by TB's.

The political reality of TN is a matter for the Tamil body politic to deal with. It is not germane here.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri PVR,

Dear Smt HH Ji,

Thats why I needed to ask that question in some other thread, is the Vedas writen by Brahmana, Manusmriti is written by brahmana,

Vedas do not speak of any jaathi system. They speak of a varna system (different from jaati system).

Manu was considered to be a king. Not sure its possible to speculate abt his varna. The interpolations (later day additions) in Manusmrithi in favour of priests ('brahmins') was considered to have been the work of brahmins. Some say it was very recent (post mughal, pre colonial period) and therefore the handiwork of the forefather of present day brahmins - no idea how far that is true.

I also dont know, How brahmana placed himself in top of varna. Nowadays, i see other people are running backwards to join with the bottom of the varna. . Now the race is towards achieving the bottom of the varna, so in that direction, bramins are in the last position.

The dharmashastras do place the 'brahmins' at the top of the varna. Obviously, the body of literature was produced by brahmins themselves, in favour of themselves.

'The scenario emerging is this:
sages of the past did not write all that "highs" and "lows" and superiority stuff, nor did they put 'brahmins' (priests) on top of the varna pole. But those that positioned themselves as 'brahmins' in later day period did.

Yes, there are clues that brahmins (priests) were treated as socially inferior. But there is no body of literature to susbtantiate that. Simply by claiming to be last position does not erase things that got perpetuated bcoz of such 'shastras'.

If people are impoverished, and if the government offers some benefits, ofcourse people will clamour to receive those benefits.

Lets not ignore the fact, after the anti-brahmin moment, logically there should be two groups, Bs and NBs. (for logical discussion). But, why in reality we have BC/OBC with 252 different types excluding SC/STs. Why not a rule can be passed on to merge all the NBs as one group and award the reservation, why they need to differentiate 252+ groups. How the 4 varnas has branched out to so many varnas only in Tamilnadu.
LIST OF BACKWARD CLASSES* APPROVED
When TN govt awards 69% reservation as opposed to 50% anywhere, why they make a law, to merge all the NB castes into one. STILL WHY THE GOVT KEEP THIS JATIS?. now there is no king to listen to brahmin priest. Its democracy, I really would like to see that.

If a system was created to divide people from top to bottom, obviously a system had to be created to reverse the effects of education and gender inequalities (that came abt bcoz of the dharmashastras). Wud you call that anti-brahmanism? Ofcourse, politicians took (and take) advantage of it.

Instead of questioning present day india, please question the pre-colonial india - was it right to have segregated people, enforced discrimination and restricted knowledge access to select people based on caste and gender ? Instead of blaming 'corruption' now, please take a look at corruption in the 'shastras'..

I am really curious also to know how the 4% could control 96% in any time in the History, Original history if at all we have (not colonial and definitely not from the 21st century historians - consistent, Not showing only one village. i fail to convince myself. Is it possible?

It is 4% now (or is it?). Request you to look up posts of Shri Appaiah ji. The ratio of brahmadeya settlements was 4:1. The rest supposedly disappeared. We do not know if the dharma literature was succesfully enforced in all parts of india. Perhaps it was not. The south seems to have always resisted such things (though it was tried to be enforced as 'dharma').

Well there was violence unleased by brahmins in andhra in the colonial times...in a similar mold, in the present times, there are outfits like Ranvir Sena made up of brahmins that now use the gun to keep people where they are even today.

Irrespective of whether various groups across india succeeded or not, truth is that such groups across india did produce screwed up literature (or interpolated stuff) to promote discrimination and self-promotion. If not, how come such literature exists?

Lets try to find out how to regain the moral, across the society, if we really believe that hinduism offers good way of life than others, lets see how to find a way to route out other foreign elements. Lets really find out, is the Brahmin caste is the real route cause for the troubles in TN? Are we comfort ourselves, as we have a shield to hide.

Yes, that is why i asked for solutions. If hinduism is supposed to offer a good way of life, then why is there a body of literature promoting discriminations? If there is such literature, then what is the point in blaming others for taking advantage of it?

Why not look at ourselves first instead of pointing fingers at other religions, politicians, missionaries, non-indians, etc..

Dear Smt HH ji,

Coming back to the news paper article.

Why the paper focused untouchablity in Gujarat, while they are a progressing model state. Why they have choosen this time. Is it not prevailing for the many years if at all so. This is the tendency, the media loves to have with the public, this is the tendency the other religiously conversion party wants this is the tendency anti social anti patriotic forces want.

Its not against brahminism. Its against Hinduism, in favour of other reigion.

What our NGOs are doing? Why 3 forign establishment with human rights should do this survey? How many people tell the truth?.

Lets not use our own finger to damage our eyes. (tamil pazhamozi).

Everything can be undone. Lets see the ways to undo and make ours a good model for all. (ours means all of us )

Regards

Again, lets not play the blame game. The media reports it bcoz it exists. Instead of blaming the media, NGOs, etc, etc - let us take a look at our hindu literature first - the root from where it all began.

 

[happyhindu]

- Brahmins are distinguished by way to eating habits and that's what I have highlighted in terms of superiority of jeeva. Brahmin jeevas have more challenges in life than other jeevas. Whether a Brahmin jeeva is strictly following the laid principles is an individual issue. We should not get confused with an Individual's habits/desires and life style with that of Brahmin systems in general.

brahmins are not the only vegetarians.

if diet is a unit of measure of superiority of the jeeva, then were vedic priests who consumed meat inferior?

how do you measure superiority of a jeeva?

 

[Nara]

When did i say that varna is not by birth.

Hello HH, greetings! Sorry if I have misunderstood, but from our earlier conversations I had an impression that in your view varna was assigned in guru kulam by the teacher upon graduation or during the course of education. In either case this is only an academic issue. Even if varna and jati were at one time completely different, I don't think they were (viz. BG), it is clear that today they are one and the same thing. Jati is just a more elaborate and detailed version of varna.

There is one more theoretical/academic stuff I need clarification on. You refer to poorva mimamsa and uttara mimamsa sanyasins and you often seem to suggest the Sankara mutt and Vaishnava sanyasees follow poorva mimamsa. This, in my view, is misleading. Indeed there were strict poorva mimasakas who did not care for Uttra mimamsa and were interested only in vedic rituals.

But Uttara mimamsakas by the very definition accept the validity of poorva mimamsa, but they go on to say Vedantam is the whole point of poorva mimamsa. So, it is incorrect to suggest the ekadandees of sankara matam and the thridandees are poorva mimamsakas a la Jaimini, they are not.

On practical stuff, I am with you all the way.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

brahmins are not the only vegetarians.

if diet is a unit of measure of superiority of the jeeva, then were vedic priests who consumed meat inferior?

how do you measure superiority of a jeeva?

Hello HH, you are indeed correct to raise these questions.

Unfortunately, there is no awareness of certain basic facts and yet people venture in with all sorts of sweeping statements. The basic nature of jeevathma is well defined in the very second chapter of BG. It is there for all to look at and easily understand.

There is a near universal consensus that there is no தாரதம்யம் (superior/inferior) when it comes to the essential nature of Jeevas. Only Madhwa dwaitees associate gender and varna to athma. Jati/Varna differences, superiority, inferiority come into picture only when a jeeva is born into a body due to karma.

This is a fundamental concept for Hindus in general. Why do people who are not familiar with even the basics get into a discussion of the nature of athma, etc., unless they are proposing a completely new religion?

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Ravi ji,

I think you have considered me half-backed as per your qeustions. I couldn't feel that we need to pin point every thing. A bottom line of a statement should be enough to understand what is what.

No sir i have not considered you half-baked. I only asked how can you say that tehre are "high" and "low" castes and then say the indian governemnt has "equality of rights".

If the indian government has equality of rights, then are not institutions that perpetuate inequalites, illegal ? If the indian govt believes in 'equality of rights', then are not texts that promote discrimination, illegal? No point in obfuscating sir. Isn't it more than high time we either faced reality or stopped playing the blame game?

I mean to say that Indian legal system is same for every individual irrespective of Religion, cast and creed. Every one have equal rights to live in a society and shape thier life.

What is legal now is beside the topic. Yes eventually what is legal constitutionally will come to prevail. India is just around 60 years old so the old mores of the previous generations still exist (though disappearing fast due to industrialization / modernization).

High and Low cast discriminations exists within NB's. There is no doubt in that. These discriminations are adopted by people in a society (unmindful of legal laws in our country). And these discrmiminating people could mostly succeed by money power and lots of undercover activities. Obviously politics play its major role in this.

Yes, discriminations 'within NBs' exist. Bashing religion, caste, shastras, etc will in no way absolve those politicians of the sins they commit.

But we are talking abt the basis from which these people partly found a plarform to work on - that is, "problems" within the hindu religion.

Backward cast my consider Schedule cast as inferior, Schedule cast may consider Schedule Tribe as inferior and many other as an example.

I am not concerned about who decided on the terms "high" and "low". This is an entirely different issue and I consider them as useless to ponder about.

Certainly we can not claim that a "brahmin" has the right to designate varnas (based on occupations) of other people. There might be many selfish motive. There is no use to debate on these issues in present scenario and come to a "NEE YA - NAA NAA" situation. These debates can in no way help us to put an end to all the attrocities happening in our society.

Competition will exist in various forms. But i think only in india we use the shastras to that effect. We compare who is better than us or worse than us, based on occupation. Obviously the concept that one occupation is superior or inferior did not originate in independent india - it has its genesis in old india or india before independence.

Yes, it is natural to consider one job better than the other, but the shastras created a system where a man was bonded to his job 'by birth'. And that sir, happens to be the problem.

If you were to consider the issue useless to ponder over, then why sir do you use the terms 'high' or 'low' and 'superior' and 'inferior' to designate jeevas and castes (occupations) ?

If you think a 'brahmin' has not right to designate varnas (based on occupations), then why sir wud you want to brush it under the carpet now by saying there is no use debating on the issue now (really, is there no use ?). Methinks that wud be a sort of escapism from reality.

"High and Low" concept might be purely based on selfish motive.

Basically we can say that we in mejority had better interpersonal skills [ Intelligence, patience, presense of mind, non-violence attitude, cleanliness etc) than other NB's during old days. Now every one is in par with each other.

Sir, ppl also say that brahmins have been rather scheming in the way they went about playing the divide and rule game using varna and jaatis; with themselves as superior and everyone else as inferior.

It is possible that the angst against 'secularism' comes from the fact that everyone is at par with each other now. Which, by the looks of it, some 'superior' people do not want to see.

That's why I am not interested to go through scriptures. Few understanding by way of acquired knowledge was enough for me to understand myself as what is what.

From the beginning, I believe that many of the scriptures (pertaining to this subject) subject are ambiguous and we may doubt, blame, support as we could understand and just keep arguing with each other.

But nothing would be fruitful.

Sure you can wish to be disinterested in scriptures. But no one can brush it away for their own convenience now.

Whether valid or invalid and whether right or wrong, basic human psychology can never be ruled out.

In short, in this material world every society is selfish. Learned and independent people would not care. Uneducated and poor people from every society suffer from the existing social system and political practices.

So it means that people who designed a system, where they decide who is kept in and who is kept out, played a psychology game?

The so-called orthodox view presented by sapthajihva is also a psycology game? Ofcourse, what is orthodox to one group of people is not orthodox to another, and vice-versa - a long standing disagreement coming from 2 sects, perhaps from a psychology perspective (of delusional fantasies? ).

Why keep blaming politicans and everyone and everything now, and turn a blind eye to the origin of such problems?

- Placing ourself "top of the hirearchy" is outdated. No use in justifying its sensibility in support or in against. The present condition is revealing as how and where we were wrong in the past for which we are still bearing the brunt. In fact we have been totaly considered out of the society

Sir, now you have come to reality somewhat.

- Brahmins are always brahmins. Nothing can be ruled out that are all associated with Brahmin systems. Designating varnas may be wrong, but that is not the only tool to consider ourself as Brahmins.

No sir, brahmins designated themselves as brahmins, irrespective of whether it was from the vedic period or the colonial period. And brahmins want to designate other varnas so that they can remain brahmin. They even tried to designate the british as kshatriya - just so that they can maintain varna-jaati hierarchy scheme with themselves as brahmins (at the top).

This, I think we have to discuss with our "Shankracharya Matt, Sringeri Swamigal Mat and ******* for better understanding.

If required we can think of incepting "Naveena Brahmin Samajam" to empower our self.

Dunno abt mutts. For now it seems that the 'social interests' that brahmins are protecting are 'themselves' - and may i know what are they doing for the larger betterment of the rest of humanity ?