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Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?

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Reading the posts of some persons I feel, Oru Saadhi Thannaiyum Oru Poruttaaga Madhikka Kattrukolla Vendum...Nam Samoohathil Parandha Sindhainai Ullavargal Vendum Thaan...Aanaal Tham Makkalaiye Poattu Midhikkindravargal Iruppadhu Vedhanaikkuthaan Uriyadhu...I feel some Brahmins have lost their identity and self respect!

vamanan,

it may be easier reading for some folks like me, if you write the original in tamil script. there are various easy website. i use the following:

Type in Tamil - Google Transliteration

your words in tamil.. ஒரு சாதி Thannaiyum ஒரு பொருட்டாக மதிக்க கற்றுக்கொள்ள வேண்டும் ...நம் சமூஹதில் பரந்த சிந்தினை உள்ளவர்கள் வேண்டும் தான் ...ஆனால் தம் மக்களையே போட்டு மிதிக்கின்றவர்கள் இருப்பது வேதனைக்குதான் உரியது took me less than a minute to translate :)

now i understand this also better, as i was not sure of many words when spelt in english.

i agree with your sentiments. i think all of us are broad minded. also all of us are narrow minded. i believe, it is the latter, ie our prejudices that define us.

i have my prejudices, and my basket of peeves, i am quite sure, will be different from the others. in such cases, instead of வேதனை, i think it is best to 'live and let live'.

because, someone who is less broad minded than you can have the same arguement against you and feel வேதனை.

the ultimate extreme வேதனை folks are really intolerable. they find fault with everybody for forsaking hinduism, and they want to be the 'true brahmins'. such folks are dangerous too.

these last type of folks are in every religion. of late, somali youths, born and brought up in canada and the u.s., are disappearing. they are returning to their parents' homeland, which they have never visited before.

all because of appeals from fanatics. the most famous is a white european convert to islam, who calls the somalis who left somalia as traitors, and wants their youth to return, arm themselves and fight jihad all over the world.

see, other crazies are no better than our crazies. all of them are scary. :(

this site works great. you
 
Now a days those with money are treated as brahmins or higher caste. Even if we see love marriage most are either from same field of work or girls prefer well to do family boys. The expansion of fields of work and involvement of girls in works other than hose hold has changed the mindset of people. The girls who were KINNATTU THAVALAI has come out and loking the developed world. In my opinion this caste system will have naturla death in coming years.
 
Now a days those with money are treated as brahmins or higher caste. Even if we see love marriage most are either from same field of work or girls prefer well to do family boys. The expansion of fields of work and involvement of girls in works other than hose hold has changed the mindset of people. The girls who were KINNATTU THAVALAI has come out and loking the developed world. In my opinion this caste system will have naturla death in coming years.

correctly said krs.

on one hand, we will have the idealogues of tradition, who will not just moan, but scream with venom, at the 'loss' of jathi, purity and above all, the 'dilution' of the brahmin gene.

the other extreme, is still the remnants of the DK, who appear to be getting a new shot in the arm in the likes of sebastian seeman or thamizhacchi thangapandian.

not living in tamil nadu, i am not sure, how much the mainstream tamilians listen to these rabble rousers. to a large extent, the venom spewed is frustrations growing in a certain sections of tamil community over the overall refusal of TBs to support the LTTE.

cho's thuglaq, the hindu, dinamalar, dinamani, kalki, vikatan, swamy the politician all appear to sing the same tune ie LTTE was evil.

personally, i think, we were as a community, swimming in strange waters. to take to arms to resolve an issue is alien to us. i think that we, as a wholesome community took to the fight for indian independence, mainly because of gandhi's emphasis on non violence.

ofcourse, there are exceptions such as vanchinathan or lakshmi iyer. but these are exception. the mass of the TBs involved themselved to the cause of indian independence, like never before in their history, and if my guts are to be heard, never will be again. the fight for indian independence was unique, in the sense, we had in essence a ruler, for the first time in a millenium, who was not a religious fanatic.

there is a lot of talk about our 'heritage' to our learning. from the viewpoint of my family, it does not hold true. from what history i know of my paternal clans, there is neither education or erudition there. more of living off the 'gift of land' provided to the ancestors by the maharaja of travancore, which was dissipated over the generations by the sons, to such an extent, that by the time of my paternal grandpa, all the sons went out to the distant parts to earn living as clerks.

i find it best, not to put on airs about a glorious ancestry. for this only, in my case, gives me a baggage, that too unwanted. it is best, i think, for each of us, to portray ourselves as starting from scratch, evaluate what life gifted us in terms of talents and interests, and maximize our advantages to be better than anyone else in that sector.

that above mentioned 'sector', might be engineering, medicine, IT or finance (i am mentioning the comfortable solace for the pleasure of our traditionalists here :) ).

many a times, in the draw of talents that is life, several of our youth are inclined to something else - the arts, dramas, literatures, travel, biology, zoology, archaelogy and even more exotic careers. many of these, i am sad to say, are trimmed in their initiation by anxious parents (i too may be guilty of that which is even more dismaying) giving vent to their insecurities or ignorance. the path to manna appears to be the traditional modes. not for them to finance their children's tangential outlooks on life's careers.

working with the hand. this is a limb that we know, use and abuse. we, as a community, do not encourage, our children, to go further with the use of the hand - artists, jewellers, plumbers, carpenters, house painters and masons. there is an immense amount of treasure in pursuing these vocations.

when we say our son is an அம்பட்டன், we cringe in shame. but, the truth of the matter, is our son is an brand name hair dresser, challenging the likes of vidal sassoon, and where the likes of vidya balan or aishwarya bacchan would not blink to pay 50,000 ruppees to have their hair 'coiffured', something that the sun burnt guy, with his little wooden box and worn out razors would do for 50 ruppees.

it is often said that necessity is the mother of invention. perhaps, i would like to modulate this to another theme? necessity is the mother of innovation? let us innovate our minds, to newer and better traditions, traditions, that we shunned in the name of caste, for therein lies the key to our creativity and perhaps, yet another route to prosperity.

thank you.
 
.....
many a times, in the draw of talents that is life, several of our youth are inclined to something else - the arts, dramas, literatures, travel, biology, zoology, archaelogy and even more exotic careers. many of these, i am sad to say, are trimmed in their initiation by anxious parents

Unfortunately, what we have in TN and probably all over India, is not an educational system, but a toll gate system. Youngsters must pay lakhs and lakhs, mug mug and mug, and somehow pass the silly exams. Then go and get a job. Get married and raise the next crop of software engineers. Might as well be robots.

The finer things in life such a poetry, history, literature, philosophy are of no value, fit only for losers. A perfect vacuum into which rushes delusions of past grandeur and present victimhood. Everything is us versus them. Tribalism at its best.

Thanks my friend for a nice post....
 
Originally Posted by sapthajihva
[..]
If we agree that our birth is a devolvement of prarabdha karma, then it is but a natural inference that the guna of the athma is decided by the current nature of the karma being burned in the current birth. In such a case, birth alone decides the varna.


I cannot agree more with what Sapthajihva is saying. He is absolutely correct. HH may have a point historically in terms of what actually happened or how this system actually evolved. But from a religious and theoretical POV there is no escaping, Sapthajihva is correct.

Sir,

When did i say that varna is not by birth. Please see my comments on the Brahmana (Brahmin) Status thread.

What am saying is that jaati (occupation) is not linked to varna. And by saying that i am expressing the views of the ekadandis i have met so far (that is monks of the swami order, giri branch, saraswati order, plus also teachers of arya samaj, kriya yoga, brahmo samaj, chinmaya mission, bihar school of yoga, shivananda ashram, individual wandering monks with a single staff that is ekadandis, etc).

Am not inclined to get into a conversation with Sapthajihva, but am mentioning here that i find the explanations given by him on varna-jaati links erroneous. As also his explanation on the atma's inclinations. And i say that after speaking to ekadandis - am not even taking conversations with past life regression therapists, spirit mediums and extortionists (of tao, hindu and buddhist relgions) into account.

Regards.
 
Shri Kunjuppu...I too learn only through experience.
The first or second time I went to see Shri Jayakanthan, the writer, he asked me something about my caste....
I was trying to maintain that I take a more broad view of society...something like that...
He then asked...How can a man be a complete, integral person without having consideration for people of his caste...
I learnt from him (I respect him greatly), that one should not try to bury this caste thing too much...
Of course caste is not everthing....Again caste is not nothing...
Let us not flog it...agreed there are many 'complexed' people who cannot come out of it and keep attacking the earlier dispensation...Their life for them...Some diseases are incurable...And for DK and gang it is bread, butter and jam.
Only thing is, Brahmins should be able to go beyond the symbols of their past, connect to the living springs of spirituality, and get going without being defensive...That way the innovations you mention will happen spontaneously...When there could be a Vyaadha Rishi, why should there not be a Barber Brahmana (anything better than a barbecued Brahmana!)
 
A few inputs in this interesting conversation:

Lets consider hindusim as a painting on a wall and you are examining it carefully as a person with no religion, gender, etc.

Sure you can ignore the pimple marks, scars, spots, etc. But can you cannot ignore the cracks in the wall, widening into deep wedges, threatening to pull down the wall in smitherns. If you can ignore, good for you.

But if you obfuscate, its not good for you.

Lets not blame politicians, the british, the forefathers, etc, etc. Lets ask ourselves, why did we give all those ppl such a platform (caste identities) to work from?

Right from missionary activites to anti-state activities, caste has figured everywhere.

Hope some of you bother to look up stories on why 'dalits' turn into naxals, maoists, and are brainwashed into anti-state activities. Lets not blame the Ltte for hating the caste system. Except 'brahmins', is there a single soul that wants the 'caste system' to exist? Why?

Simply because, imo, 'brahmins' have created texts that put them on "the top of some hierearchy" thus creating a system of segregation and discrimination; and have also possibly produced interpolations to keep themselves on top of the heirarchial beanpole.

Instead of going far, lets have a look at the posters here. It does not matter to me, who considers me what. I know myself. My interests are many, my intellect is limited. Depending on the circumstances, i can be cowardly, aggressive, easily swayed by emotions, impatient, etc. I consider myself Shudra.

At the same time, please do not kid me by asking me to consider old posters like Saab and Sesh as brahmins. Why should i? Simply bcoz of their birth and bcoz they do some rituals? And what makes anyone think that people like Saab, Sesh, Sbala actually have the right to designate their own varnas as well as that of others based on their birth and rituals?

This, sirs, is the base reality. People do not want their varnas to be designated by those who they think have no right to do so. If you keep calling yourself a 'brahmin' and someone at the 'top of the hirearchy', then it will automatically define and keep a group called 'dalits' as dalits at the bottom of the heirarchial beanpole.

I think this varna-jaati link hit a cresendo during the colonial period. I was taken aback to read the kind of violent stuff that brahmins in andhra were involved in during the coloial period. Am glad that such things are best forgotten.

Methinks, 'brahmins' want to designate other people's varnas so that they can remain 'brahmin' (??).

Ramansrini's started this thread by connecting varna and jaathi. His first post itself is not right (not wrong either). Sir, Varna is considered differnt from Jaathi, by Monastic traditions that have existed since a long time before Shri Adi Shankara. Except the Shankara mutts, as far as i know, all other Ekadandis do not accept a person's varna as connected to the occupation; and certainly not connected to the occupation of the father.

Renuka says man will differentiate anyways - yes he will. But that does not mean one can justify the presence of segregation and discrimination based on scriptures (possibly hindusim is the only religion that created scriptures, and offers scriptural explanations for discrimination based on occupations).

So where do we go from here?

Is it possible to return to the vedic varna system (where varna was independent of jaathi; and a person cud be recruited into a different varna, if he showed such abilities) ??

Is it possible to retain the jaathi system of the dharmashastras (that got linked to varna, and enforce people to stay within a same occupation just bcoz his dad professed it) ??

And lets say at the end of the day we agree to stop arguing what is vedic or what is dharmashastric - and leave texts aside. So what do we do as individuals?

Do we let the segregation (and the resultant discrimination) exist? Please do not try to convince me that segregation does not mean discrimination. Whatever you say, it will still result in discrimination, because there is something called a 'scriptural basis' to do so. What do we do with the "scriptural basis"?

Lets stop the blame game and start thinking of solutions. Please post your views on what can be done from here on....and please leave the bashing of missionaries, politicians, non-hindus, etc out of this.

Lets take an honest view of what we are first. And think of better (and practical) ways to go abt addressing these things.
 
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Some links i thot were valid for this discussion:

1) No temple entry for dalits in Gujarat - India - The Times of India

2) Mob blocks Dalits' entry into temple - India - The Times of India - please do not laugh at the vanniyas in this. Methinks they are still living in the old structure of wanting to promote themselves as 'kshatriyas' by keeping hierarchial divisions alive - and ofcourse, their attitude is based on the idea that caste has to be linked with varna (thanks to 'brahmins' i suppose). Today 'brahmins' can easily say we are not to be blamed, we do not practice such things, our forefathers were progressive and so on. But truly, can you continue to live in the same place (tamilnadu) and yet want to keep your hands washed off such things?

3) Untouchability alive in rural areas: Study - India - The Times of India
 
Some links i thot were valid for this discussion:

1) No temple entry for dalits in Gujarat - India - The Times of India


2) Mob blocks Dalits' entry into temple - India - The Times of India - please do not laugh at the vanniyas in this. Methinks they are still living in the old structure of wanting to promote themselves as 'kshatriyas' by keeping hierarchial divisions alive - and ofcourse, their attitude is based on the idea that caste has to be linked with varna (thanks to 'brahmins' i suppose). Today 'brahmins' can easily say we are not to be blamed, we do not practice such things, our forefathers were progressive and so on. But truly, can you continue to live in the same place (tamilnadu) and yet want to keep your hands washed off such things?

3) Untouchability alive in rural areas: Study - India - The Times of India

There are strict legislation against untouchability in the country. Enforcing authorities have to do their duty. Why they are failing to do it? It is the duty of the District collector concerned to enforce the law with the help of police.

Dravidian parties are ruling Tamilnadu. Why they are not enforcing? Let us not bother about other states. Atleast in Tamilnadu, TB has practically no say in the administration. But why do you blame TB for this.

Last year in the Chidambaram Nataraja temple, reciting of Devaram was not allowed by Dikshidar community. Personally I condemned the attitude of Dikshidars. But Government went overboard and ensured that Dikshidars were overpowered and Devaram was recited at Nataraja temple. Some Dikshidars were arrested in the process.

Why the same yardstick is not used against other communities who are preventing Daliths from entering temple? I earnestly feel it is pure vote bank politics. TB community is a miniscule minority. Whereas Vanniars are a big vote bank which the ruling party doesn't want to antogonise.

TB community cannot do anything beyond condemning the incident and requesting the law to be enforced.

All the best
 
Dravidian parties are ruling Tamilnadu. Why they are not enforcing? Let us not bother about other states. Atleast in Tamilnadu, TB has practically no say in the administration. But why do you blame TB for this.

Am not interested in politicians - their aim is to make a platform for themselves for self-promotion. Caste system serves as their platform as and when they need it - as per their convenience.

Am not blaming TBs.

Such things came to exist bcoz something called 'shastras' promoted segregation (thereby resulting in discrimination). And that sir, imo, cannot be denied.
 
Prof Nara Sir, My replies are in blue

Dear Shri. RVR, Certainly not. But I wonder why you think the present day B's are being crucified. TB's are free to practice their religion and culture, without any interference from the government. They even can practice discriminatory practice like Brahmin only policy in Veda patashalas even with government subsidies.

I am not sure whether Vedha Patasalas run with Government subsidy. If it is so, then they cannot discriminate in admitting students. It is against the constitution and if some body goes to court, it can be corrected. But Vedha Patasalas run by brahmin community can have their own rules which no body can object.


Please see Kunjuppu's post on the thread earlier. He says it was a long ramble, but I say a very perceptive, gentle and engaging commentary.

TB's may have played a leading role in the independence struggle, but they also benefited from both the colonialism of the British, and the independence that came afterward. Further, due to oppressive practices of over eons, they predominated the intelligentsia. Further, they were fighting for independence from British so that they can rule. For a dalit it did not matter much whether they were dominated by the British or by the Brahmins and upper castes. For them, at least the British did not practice untouchability.

Let us talk about today. Brahmins are no way oppressing others. In actual practice, they don't have any power to do it. But brahmin bashing is going on.

Indeed Agraharams are getting thinned out of TB's. But nobody forced them to move. They were living on the patronage of kings and the labor of dalits for centuries. When that changed, they moved to places that offered more lucrative opportunities. Now they lament -- the Muslims are moving into Agraharam. All these TB's who have moved to greener pastures come once a year for the Brhamotsavam and these Muslim terrorist sympathizers actually welcome them, offer not to cook NV during those days, and also contribute financially for the festivals.

During my life time, I faced both class struggle and caste struggle. As you rightly said, we voluntarily gave up the fight and moved to greener pastures.

In the erstwhile Tanjore district (comprising of present Tanjore, Tiruvarur and Nagappatinum districts) the rich land lords were not brahmins. Vadapathimangalam Mudaliar (6000 acres), Poondi Vandayar, Ukkadai Thevar, Valivalam Desikar, Kapisthalam Moopanar (All were holding 1000 acres plus). Kunniyur Sambasiva Iyer was richest brahmin having lands exceeding 500 acrs plus.They were exploiting dalith labourers more than the brahmins. When the agricultural land ceiling laws were enforced, brahmins gave up agriculture and were forced to vacate village agraharams.

In 1968 about 42 daliths were burnt alive due to labour dispute between agri land lords and communist dalith labourers. No brahmin was involved in the incident. On the contrary most of the communist leaders then were brahmins like P.Ramamurthi, ASK Iyengar etc.

http://www.boell-india.org/download_en/mohanty.pdf

India was indeed conceived as a democracy. At that time there was no need to start from where other democracies started, by giving votes only to property owners. By this time the idea of universal franchise was the prevailing norm.

On the one hand you take pride in India being a true democratic republic. Rightly so. But on the other hand you bemoan vote bank politics. That is what happens in democracies. Politicians appeal to the base instincts. Nixon devised the southern strategy is an example of that. Ronald Regan gave a speech just prior to announcing his candidacy from a place called Philadelphia Mississippi. This was the site of brutal murders of civil rights workers by the law enforcement officials. He did not say one word about the murders, in stead he talked about state rights, a code for racial politics. So, in a democracy the majority gets to rule.

USA became true domocracy with equal rights only in 1965 after the passage of the following bill.

Voting Rights Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the contrary India was truly democratic from January 26th 1950. Literacy levels were very very low and still voting rights were extended to all citizens.


Education is a public good. Democratically elected governments get to make rules that hopefully benefit a large swath of the population. The reservation policy has not stifled the economic progress of the TB's. Look around, most TB's find a way to be successful. I don't see many doing daily wage labor. This is because of the huge cultural capital they have amassed over centuries of privilege. Now, when we have to pay a few thousands or few lakh rupees to get admission we whine and gripe about the unfairness of it all.

Providing good quality of education to all citizens is the duty of the Government. It was late Kamaraj who introduced free school education to all and subsidised education at college level. It was done without opening liquor shops.

But what the dravidian parties are doing? They opened liquor shops and amazed revenue for the Government. But there are no teachers in schools. Even if there is a teacher, he is not sincere. Still literacy levels in Tamilnadu is too low at 74% and ranks 10th among the different states in the country. Brahmins have no say for the past four decades. Even whatever EVR wanted is not happening. Cinema and Liquor lobby has high jacked Dravidian movement in Tamilnadu and the poor is deprived of their basic rights.

TB community has no other option except protecting their own interests. Still there are substantial poor among TB community and I earnestly feel that it is the duty of well to do TBs to lift them out of poverty. You may argue that I talking selfish with narrow vision. But I earnestly feel that without any support from Government, we have to look only inwards to our community for help. I am not saying we should not help other community but we have to first look after our own community .


Cheers!

All the best
 
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Sri RVR ji,

Very well said......

The subject of the thread is -"Is the caste system weakness of Hinduism?". This is a very interesting subject and we could find lots of ideas exchanged between members.

In line with your above explanations, I would like to point out - Who all are Hindus?.

Brahmins and Non Brahmins are two major cast groups in Hinduism. Non Brahmins have further classifications and there exists High Cast and Low Cast within.

Though Indian Government has constituted equality of rights for every cast and has stringent rules against cast discrimination, we Brahmins have been isolated from Hindu community as a whole and were deprived of Government privileges.

My question is why NB's have such discriminations against Brahmins and why Brahmin bashing is still on when Brahmins are in no way overpowering, humiliating and exploiting other cast? [There may be political and many social reasons]

Why NB's don’t have the sense of unanimity with Brahmins? Why are they not bothered to protect the interest of we Brahmins? [There may be political and many social reasons]


In general why should NB's least bothered about Brahmins and upper cast NB's least bothered about lower cast NB's when we all are Hindus?

Each cast is bothered about their own cast just under the banner of Hinduism and no one seems to be interested to safeguard Hinduism.

As you said, all of we Brahmins (as human beings) should be helpful to any one irrespective of one's religion, cast and creed wherever and whenever necessary on humanitarian grounds. But we should have a vision to formulate our own well defined system to empower our community and sustain our cast till the existence of this Prabancham.

Unless we keep focusing on the ways and means of strengthening our community unanimously nothing would be progressive and fruitful to the social interest of we all Brahmins and all the discussions here referring to History and present political scenario would just be exchange of ideas and nothing would be constructive.

By protecting social interest I mean to say that the social/cultural setup of we Brahmins should continue to exist.


 
Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

Sri PVRaman ji,

........
I just would like to highlight something that we believe in general -

1) We believe that their are wandering souls as well
2) As per the fate of a soul, a soul keeps wandering for specific time period as Prethatma
3) This period of wandering as Prethatma are considered to be the fate of a soul and in this stage the soul suffers lots of pain and yearns to attain a body/janma or moksham.
4) If we believe in previous birth, we claim that some of the basic qualities and attributes of the Atma continues to prevail in the present Janma.

Based on above points, I would like to know as how your claim - "When Jiva which has no emotion, no feelings when enters into human has all the pain, pleasure and associated feelings and actions" can be substantiated?

I wrote that because I was thinking about why we should achieve swarga and moksha (after reading BG). I want to learn about Jiva better. The points you have mentioned above, I knew vaguely. But, some of the questions are hanging in my mind.

If a Jiva has emotions or can feel pain and pleasure, why it should have a human form again?

Is it possible for a Jiva to attain moksha (liberation from rebirths & deaths) with the same quality of having emotions. Is it possible to achieve true liberation with the ability to have emotions?

I always get these kind of sudden confusion which makes me to write like this :ear: to get some knowledge.

(BTW - can you please inform me where I can know further about your points mentioned?)

thanks
 
Sri KRS JI

I do not think that the Varna system was invented to 'keep down' the masses. Like any idealistic system (Communism, for example), it was devised with all good intentions.

The requirements to be a brahmin of the yore is not followed by today's ilk and we can never go back to those times, as we are caught in the strong flow of industrialization/modernization. A brahmin is not a brahmin if other varnas performing their required roles also do not exist, as the roles were devised to be complementary and interdependent. If sudhras do not accept the brahmins, then following all the required brahminical varna dharma has no meaning. Because all the benefits to the mankind can only accrue if all in the system believe in the whole system. To say that if we go back to our brahmin dharma as prescribed, by ourselves alone, even if it can be accomplished (which it can not be), whether other dharmas exist is not a very logical argument to make. One needs all four dharmas to exist and function to make the varna system work.

Regards,
KRS

Very Well Said Sir. This is my POV too.

Regards
 
Please find my answers in blue.

Dear Sri Ravi Ji,



I wrote that because I was thinking about why we should achieve swarga and moksha (after reading BG). I want to learn about Jiva better. The points you have mentioned above, I knew vaguely. But, some of the questions are hanging in my mind.

Absolutely true...I too have only vague ideas about all these and some of these questions would ever be hanging in my mind too. It is better for us to keep these hanging questions down in front of others and try to gain more clarity by exchanging ideas among our selves.

If a Jiva has emotions or can feel pain and pleasure, why it should have a human form again?

I fee that, all the forms of life (not only human) in this world are meant to suffer pain and agony in some or the other ways. If a jeeva attains human life again than that would be only an another chance for the jeeva to correct and purify himself/herself in the process of making an attempt to attain moksha. I have highlighted this view of mine from the beginning that only Human life can give a chance to attain moksha as we Human beings in a society know what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. We human beings have more challenges in life time having associated ourself logically and emotionally with many other human jeevas surrounding us and only that can test the caliber of a jeeva by Paramatma to consider grant of Moksha. I have also stated in my previous post in an another thread that out of all these Jeevas in this world, only jeevas offered to life as brahmin can be considered close to the moksham process as we don't hurt other jeevas as well in the shape of animals, birds, insects etc..(other living forms) deliberately and would not fill our stomach with the flesh of other jeevas to relish the taste.

Is it possible for a Jiva to attain moksha (liberation from rebirths & deaths) with the same quality of having emotions. Is it possible to achieve true liberation with the ability to have emotions?

A wandering Prethaatma/jiva will suffer pain and can not be considered to have the chance of attaining moksham with or without pain. The emotional standards of a jeeva can be tested by God only by having a form of life and I believe only by having a form of human life. True liberation can be achieved only by a jeeva in human form where he/she has to whole heartedly excuse the mistakes of his/her parents, his/her spouse, his/her siblings, his/her relatives/friends/strangers, he/she has to over come haughtiness, he/she has to respect every one irrespective of age and status, he/she has to do good to others to the best of one's capacity, he/she has to live a life with out attempting devious means and he/she should not have any craving/yearning to achieve beyond the limits required and should have the sense of self satisfaction. He/she should surrender one self as Jadam at last having only the love for & thoughts of almighty.

A jeeva, would get dissolved with Paramathma (if considered purified), else to have a re-birth in human form in order to make an attempt to attain Moksham. A Prethaatma/wandering soul seems to be considered cursed and can not attain Moksham unless it takes re-birth and goes through the process of purification.



I always get these kind of sudden confusion which makes me to write like this :ear: to get some knowledge.

(BTW - can you please inform me where I can know further about your points mentioned?)

Sincerely speaking, I have not referred any article on the above subjects and I don't know and doubt whether a valid and authentic article exists for us to come to a conclusion.

Every one have one's own belief in life based on some acquired knowledge. I am one among them and just want to clarify some of the existing believes and share mine with all of you.

thanks
 
correctly said krs.

on one hand, we will have the idealogues of tradition, who will not just moan, but scream with venom, at the 'loss' of jathi, purity and above all, the 'dilution' of the brahmin gene.

the other extreme, is still the remnants of the DK, who appear to be getting a new shot in the arm in the likes of sebastian seeman or thamizhacchi thangapandian.

Sir, I think the first type are not many and the second type will not get the attention they want. Its for their use. They will be used as long as they have the charge. I also see that in order to shed B identity, some of them start smoking, drinking and even use filty language and try to exhibit some type of "Veeram"s. Is that their understanding of anti brahminism. Can they not do good things by not imitating the characters that they fantasize.

the venom spewed is frustrations growing in a certain sections of tamil community over the overall refusal of TBs to support the LTTE.

Sir, IMHO, it is done by Srilankan Tamils, people belong to other religion and separatists. Not many Normal Tamil people. I also pity about the ordinary tamil refugees, who had been a prey to the power hungry rulers. As for as the common public is concerned this is not an issue. As I said, they abuse on Brahmin not because they don't support LTTE, but because they think Brahmins are the keeper of Hinduism, once they go, they can very well amplify their idea of separate Tamil Nation. Thats why all the forces who has stakes, target brahmins.

there is a lot of talk about our 'heritage' to our learning.
....
....
all the sons went out to the distant parts to earn living as clerks.
Sadly true for many families...


when we say our son is an அம்பட்டன், we cringe in shame. but, the truth of the matter,
Unfortunately comparison are made with their own personal experience with the worst possible image. This is true,esp. in the case of explaining History.

it is often said that necessity is the mother of invention. perhaps, i would like to modulate this to another theme? necessity is the mother of innovation? let us innovate our minds, to newer and better traditions, traditions, that we shunned in the name of caste, for therein lies the key to our creativity and perhaps, yet another route to prosperity.

thank you.

Rightly said sir.

Thanks
 
Question of TB supporting a terrorist organisation

the venom spewed is frustrations growing in a certain sections of tamil community over the overall refusal of TBs to support the LTTE.

The entire problem started because of Sri Subramanyam Swamy. Swamy opposed LTTE and was beaten with rotten eggs at Madras Highcourt.

Swamy is not a representative of TB community. But he was abused in Madras Highcourt using our caste names.

Incidentally Jayalalitha also opposed LTTE but changed her stand and supported Srilanakan tamils during parlimentary elections. Again JJ is not a representative of the TB community.

No other member of TB community talked about LTTE either for or against. But somehow it was misunderstood by the Dravidian parties that we are against LTTE.

When we are keeping silence, how they presume that we are against LTTE. We have nothing to do with LTTE.

As a community we cannot openly support a terrorist organisation which has to be appreciated in the right spirit.

We are basically a peace loving community and kept quite during the last days of fighting in Srilanka.

Pro LTTE parties failed miserably in the last parliment elections. TB community may also be part of the silent majority in Tamilnadu.
 
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To All:The caste system is not weakness of Hinduism but this was carry out for decades of years by the Hindus is the weakness, mainly by the caste leaders for their Identity. For the Caste system eradication the Indian constitution should totaly changed. And in elections no one should filled by caste in any constituency were a particular caste dominates. It is just a day dream. s.r.k.
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Unfortunately, what we have in TN and probably all over India, is not an educational system, but a toll gate system. Youngsters must pay lakhs and lakhs, mug mug and mug, and somehow pass the silly exams. Then go and get a job. Get married and raise the next crop of software engineers. Might as well be robots.

The finer things in life such a poetry, history, literature, philosophy are of no value, fit only for losers. A perfect vacuum into which rushes delusions of past grandeur and present victimhood. Everything is us versus them. Tribalism at its best.

Thanks my friend for a nice post....

Great, and I want to add this, A perfect vacuum into which rushes delusions of past victimhood and and present grandeur (may be in future).

Thank you
 
Shri Ravi,

First this:
Brahmins and Non Brahmins are two major cast groups in Hinduism. Non Brahmins have further classifications and there exists High Cast and Low Cast within.

Then this:
Though Indian Government has constituted equality of rights for every cast and has stringent rules against cast discrimination, we Brahmins have been isolated from Hindu community as a whole and were deprived of Government privileges.
Your post can come across as a bit self-contradictory reg the point in bold. You say there are "high" and "low" castes and then you say indian govt has "equality of rights" - how can "equality of rights" be established when there are "high" and "low" castes.

Am really curious to know on what basis have you decided that within Non-Brahmins there are "High" Castes and "Low" Castes? Who decided on the terms "high" and "low"? Let me put it this way - what makes a 'brahmin' feel that he has the right to designate varnas (based on occupations) of other people?


Please note: all else will also think in terms of high and low, but why do 'brahmins' seem to find the necessity to keep it that way 'by birth' based on scriptures.


My question is why NB's have such discriminations against Brahmins and why Brahmin bashing is still on when Brahmins are in no way overpowering, humiliating and exploiting other cast? [There may be political and many social reasons]
I already mentioned in my previous post (am adding something more to this) and underlining the answer to your question:

At the same time, please do not kid me by asking me to consider old posters like Saab and Sesh as brahmins. Why should i? Simply bcoz of their birth, or their intellect (which is more or less same as mine) or bcoz they do some rituals? Am not even touching upon our conduct. And what makes anyone think that people like Saab, Sesh, Sbala actually have the right to designate others' varnas ? based on what ?

This, sirs, is the base reality. People do not want their varnas to be designated by those who they think have no right to do so.

Let me also ask this:
Do you want to be called a brahmin bcoz an artificial system of shastric injunctions was created (by 'brahmins') that designated and positioned themselves as people at the 'top of the hirearchy'? And that too, by birth?

Methinks, 'brahmins' want to designate other people's varnas so that they can remain 'brahmin' (??).


By protecting social interest I mean to say that the social/cultural setup of we Brahmins should continue to exist.
Sir, what are the social interests that 'brahmins' are protecting?
 
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Shri Ravi,

i have a few questions for you:


I have also stated in my previous post in an another thread that out of all these Jeevas in this world, only jeevas offered to life as brahmin can be considered close to the moksham process as we don't hurt other jeevas as well in the shape of animals, birds, insects etc..(other living forms) deliberately and would not fill our stomach with the flesh of other jeevas to relish the taste.

1) How do you know that "
jeevas offered to life as brahmin can be considered close to the moksham process" ?

2)
Are you sure that 'brahmins' don't hurt other jeevas? By shunning non-veg - is that the only criteria to show 'brahmins' do not hurt other jeevas?
 
the venom spewed is frustrations growing in a certain sections of tamil community over the overall refusal of TBs to support the LTTE.

i suppose its best we stick to the topic of this thread - is caste system the weakness of hinduism?

lets not bring ltte and such outfits into the pic here.
 
The present day Brahmins are hypocratical. Even the so called non-brahmins have some refinement and cultural protective in their aproaches. Scores can be written about brahmin girls' undoing in the U.S.
 
Dear Smt HH Ji,

Am not interested in politicians - their aim is to make a platform for themselves for self-promotion. Caste system serves as their platform as and when they need it - as per their convenience.

Am not blaming TBs.

Such things came to exist bcoz something called 'shastras' promoted segregation (thereby resulting in discrimination). And that sir, imo, cannot be denied.

IMHO, Now for everybody convenience, to live a selfish life, there is caste to shield from the wrong doings.

I can not see an ancient society, living till date, as an example for peace - A Model for Ideal Living.

Regards
 
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