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Who is Brahmanan

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When it comes to religion I am an equally opportunity offender -- but when religion and incredulity is concerned, Christianity is ahead by a mile, hinudism stands no chance.

Just imagine, their god, having waited for more than 5000 years since inception, according to their calculations earth and the universe are only that old, suddenly he decides to incarnate himself as his son, and then arranges for himself to be brutally killed so that he can claim that he gave his life for the sins of people, the sins he himself defined as sins, but then he came back alive in three days.

.........

People who live in Glass houses must not throw stones at others.

Look at the speck in your own eye before you look at the speck in another’s eye.

Incredulities, contradictions and controversies galore in so-called hindu scriptures, epics and legends.

In the perception of a so-called hindu, if the hero of an epic flirts around with gopika sthris, it is spiritual, it is holy. Whoever criticizes that, is a sinner, is spiritually immature. The hero can suggest ideas to eliminate enemies by unfair means.

The hero of another epic can eliminate a foe by hiding and aiming a bow, to please the foe’s younger brother, breaking all kshatriya dharma. Yet it is dharma since the one who perpetrated it was doing it towards a noble cause.

Such heroes can be deified, idolized and worshipped as God.

But the one who preached, “the moment you look at a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery”, though He humbled on the cross, is humbug. Of such is the Brahmin mentality and mindset.

Introspect into your own inner self.

What have you as an individual and also as a group achieved? What has your mechanical and artificial performance of sandhyavandhanams, performance of rituals, chanting of Sanskrit mantras done to your spirit? Were you able to relate with God? Were you able to commune with God’s Spirit?

You claim Hinduism as tolerant. But you demolish masjids and torch churches. You do little to improve the lot of the so called dalits. But when they leave Hinduism you cry foul. When they are inspired by someone’s preaching and follow after some other faith, you flex your muscles and call it conversion by coercion, by force, by allurement, by inducement etc. “Aadu nanaivadhai paarthu onai azhudhudham"
contd...................
 
When some foreign preacher lands in your city or town you get desperate. The so-called hindu sadhus instigate their obedient disciples to demonstrate, to go on a rampage, to the extent of sabotage, of breaking the windshields of public vehicles (recollect the Benny Hinn event in Bangalore). If you had conviction you will be totally insensitive to another person leaving your faith. Why should it matter to you at all? You will mind your own business. But you won’t. Because you don’t have conviction.

Someone in this thread mentioned, Hinduism promotes Love of God. Would you invite home a so-called sakkili for lunch or dinner and share the dining table with him? Do you have the guts to face the reproaches, the afflictions and tribulations from your community?

Your minds have been programmed and conditioned into believing that you are a high caste. Don’t deny you never thought of yourself as such. Barring a few, the rest of all those who call themselves Brahmins indeed think of themselves so. If you are denying this you are a LIAR. You are lying not to me but to your own conscience. Nevertheless there is nothing high about the Brahmin caste. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HIGH AT ALL. That’s a figment of your own imagination. Brahmins are absolutely no match at all to the Jews or to the Japanese when it comes to Intelligence. What were you doing with your intelligence when some imperial power was ruling you for nearly 400 years? Where went your intelligence?

An individual is recognized for his character and conduct. Does your character and conduct draw people towards you? Is your life a witness and testimony? By your life, does someone recognize you as a man of God?

While you wax eloquent of philosophies, shedding ego etc etc, you hold on to your egos fast as if it is your prized possession. Barring a few, Egoism, Egotism, Pride, Arrogance, Conceit, Frowardness, Snobbishness, Superiority Complex, haughtiness, vainglory, vanity are your virtues and values that you cherish and relish. For generations these vices were passed on through the genes and ingrained in the DNA of Brahmins. Being ignorant of the fact that these vices were the root cause of brahmins’ fall from grace and glory, that these were the factors that destroyed the entire community, Brahmins continue to bask in them. This is modern day Brahminism. Whatever the word Brahmin meant in ancient times, in the present times it is just a family name.

If USA is what it is now, it is not because of the Bill Gates’s, the IBMs or the HPs et al. USA was marching towards doom, being worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Read about the Azuza street revival, by google searching it.

“LET HIM WHO HAS EARS, HEAR”

 
Happy to see that Sri Brahma Rishi is in good company ( both meanings of the word) ,but does it need to be flaunted in such language? The general tone in Brahma Rishi's post can be edited and toned down by himself.It will be more palatablethen and will get approval from generally moderate members.

It is a request.

Greetings

Classic example of a modern day Brahmin. Swift to misinterpret and criticize, slow to sense and understand.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Classic example of a modern day Brahmin. Swift to misinterpret and criticize, slow to sense and understand.

Brahma,

actually you should thank surya providing you with feedback.

i do not think it is fair for you to pick on his caste in whatever failings you find. doing so, does not behoove well of yourself, and speaks more ill of you than surya.

let us examine surya's comments in the light of this and other postings. it may be true in your eyes all that you say about the brahmins (i suppose you meant TBs).

but have you not noticed, that when one finger is pointed at someone, three others are pointed back at yourself. that alone should give you some room for further thought.

what do you expect of this forum towards you? this is a brahmin oriented forum, and as you see from the various topics, we are as varied as the flowers on this earth.

we are as human as yourself, i hope, with just as much warts as normal humans have. when someone here has pretensions to greatness, have you not noticed that there are enough voices raised to bring this person down to ground levels?

the issues facing TB in the 21st century is probably the same as whatever is facing your community. you have found solace, it appears in religion. so be it. if it works for you, it is good.

but normal decency and manners should prevail, is not? to come here as a guest, and use provocative words against TBs traditions, religion and culture, again reflects badly on you and your faith, than us. i think so.

i would be more than happy to have a sakkili for lunch, than some members here, including yourself. my terms for developing friendship is based on mutual respect and regard.

respect has to be earned. these are not entitlements.

going through your several posts, i must conclude that you have not conducted yourself in a manner appropriate with the norms and decorums of this forum. or any other forum for that matter.

with this track record, to expect respect and reciprocity of விருந்தோம்பல் is, i think, much akin to the camel expecting to pass through the proverbial hole in the needle.

thank you.
 

RVR

Well-known member
Sri Brahma Rishi,

Your intentions are clear. You are not coming here to foster friendship but preach hatred.

This forum is meant for a particular sect. But the forum doesn't preach hatred.

We are not fanatic Hindus. We don't approve of demolishing a mosque or church.

Divisive agenda is the politicians job. We have nothing to do with politics.

We are not talking pride of ourselves. But what is wrong doing Sandhyavandhanam and/or any other ritual. Why do you object?

The constitution of India and several other countries permit people to follow their faith, rituals and customs.

Except few religious fanatic countries in the world, most of the countries are secular.

If you are really series about religious fanaticism, go and preach your views in a religious fanatic country.

Simply because this forum permits people belonging to other communities and faith, you cannot criticise our epics.

Every religion has some gospel, literature etc. Bible says `world is flat'. Please go to a Christian forum and tell them that what they believe is wrong.

Can you go to a fanatic Islamic country and request them to give up their practices.

If you want to talk against our community, please go and talk freely in a public meeting. If you want to write against our community, please go and write against us in magazines. There are several forums available to you. None of us are going to stop you.

This forum is meant for a particular sect. This forum is not a true representative of the community also. There are several divergent faiths within this community itself. We will discuss among ourselves and we don't require any external guide.

You please go and preach your views in the forums which accepts your views. Please leave us free.

All the best
 
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Nara

Well-known member
Simply because this forum permits people belonging to other communities and faith, you cannot criticise our epics.


Dear Shri RVR, IMHO, we need to answer the questions BR has raised, whatever may be his intentions. My request to the moderators is not to throw him out or edit his posts unless clearly obscene or offensive language is used.

I am a little busy right now, I will post my response to BR later this afternoon.

Thank you!
 

Interface

Member
2


Sri Gurubhyo namah


Sri Ramajayam



“Vedo Nityam Adhiyatam” …… Othamal oru naalum irrukavendam” ….


Study the Vedas every day.


We broadly agree that Vedãs are the basis of the Sanathana Dharma….

We have abundant, clear explanations from our elders, tapasvis’ and great pundits on relevance and importance of Vedic studies by Brahmins. We have also great reverence to “Periyava”….

But when it comes to Veda Adhyayanam we can only hear the following comments. The comments can be classified as
1. Myth, 2. Social condition (stigma), 3. Practical difficulties.


Myth:
  • It is good….Very good … but it is not meant for me…Veda Adhyayanam is not for my son or grandson (Read - applicable only others…!) ….
  • Those were olden days ….. In fact my great great grandfather was a ganapati/ somayaji etc, etc!!
  • Veda Adhyayanam is very, very tough
  • No use.. Veda Adhyayanam is only learning by heart of verses …. No practical use; Nobody knows the meaning….
  • Tough living conditions in patashala…. It is rigorous, in-humane
  • Vedam is lost and hence no scope / Veda Adhyayanam has no set grades or standards.
  • No body is keen on these issues and we don’t have help.

Social Condition (Stigma):
  • No, it won’t suit us… (Don’t ask me why…)
  • Not definitely for our social and cultural background…..
  • We have no Adhyayis in our family in the recent generations …so why should I attempt this now? We shall be aliens in our family circle.
  • Why should we learn Vedam at all? We don’t want our boy to be a Shastrigal!!
  • How can we change the society? ….We ought to live the way it does…We cannot get back to the old-age!!
  • Resistance to life-style, dressing and eating habits
  • Why make your life stressful?

Practical difficulties:
  • Where/What is the scope???….
  • What shall be the future career? Purohityam is not the career that we are interested
  • How to make a respectable living?
  • Is it a proven path? Can you prove it?
Only owing to our Periyava’s efforts and tapas we see even now few Veda Adhyayis among our community. It goes to show that the practicing the ‘Preach’ is difficult.
Most Brahmin families refrain from Veda Adhyayanam only because the only career option after Veda Adhyayanam is Vaideekam (read Purohityam),.

It is now required that:

  • We need the will to think dispassionately and think big!!

  • Break the Myth on the negative aspects of Veda Adhyayanam and bring people around on the importance and sanctity of Adhyayanam.
  • We need to indulge, implement and create right social conditions so that the stigma associated with adhyayam is eroded and positive feeling are generated about Vedam and Vaideeka way of living.
  • There are successful people who have done Veda Adhyayanam as a child and are engaged subsequently as Doctors, Engineers, Chartered Accountants, Lawyers, Clerks, Teachers, Lecturers/Professors, Businessmen, Upannyasakar (Discourse specialists), Management consultants etc etc . (Most such persons have been able to lead a vaideeka lifestyle too!!) Though this unique population is small, it is a sizeable ratio of the people who undertake Veda Adhyayanam. Moreover, this unique population have had no formal facilities/guidance and have done all ground work by themselves under odd circumstances. If formal facilities/guidance were available, most Adhyayis can do wonders and many more new career avenues without compromising Vaideeka lifestyle can be discovered. We need to make it possible that Veda Adhyayanam is taken as choice as sva-dharmam not as hopeless last resort alternative.
  • We need to take pride in our ancestry, have the will to abide by the Brahmna Dharmam and will to take some efforts towards upholding it.
  • With all this in mind “Samhita” plans to create the infrastructure and social conditions to make Veda Adhyayanam a natural option in Brahmin families.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
OP
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R

Raghy

Well-known member
Brahma Rishi wrote:-
“People who live in Glass houses must not throw stones at others.”

I agree with this. That is exactly what you are doing, when you said
“In the perception of a so-called hindu, if the hero of an epic flirts around with gopika sthris, it is spiritual, it is holy. Whoever criticizes that, is a sinner, is spiritually immature. The hero can suggest ideas to eliminate enemies by unfair means.”

Every single nun takes a vow to become the bride of Jesus Christ. You go and figure out.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear all,

What does anyone gain by finding manmade loopholes in various religions and have vadam and prativadam on technical grounds?
Its not really nice to read about Krishna,Rama and Jesus being ridiculed here.

You can't light up your home by blowing another's flame
Cos' the flame in you and me is one and the same.


Please remember Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.
 
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OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Brahma Rishi wrote:-

Someone in this thread mentioned, Hinduism promotes Love of God. Would you invite home a so-called sakkili for lunch or dinner and share the dining table with him? Do you have the guts to face the reproaches, the afflictions and tribulations from your community?”

I wrote that. Inviting Sakkili for dinner? Ha, ha. Ha! It was done 40 years back in my own house. Actually it was quite common in my home in those years. That Sakkili’s sons studied very well. The youngest son liked me so much, He would hug me every time he met me, right in the street. I liked him too, so I would be ready with open arms to receive his hug. Hindu community is not like your community. Individual actions are not controlled by any central authority. I never had any reproaches. When I visited last time, I found my brother is much more receptive to every one than I was. When my house was renovated in 1970s, it was a dalit who entered the house first with all the pooja and ceremonies conducted by our vadhiyar (the vadhiyar was not too pleased though! When the vadhiyar said the first person to enter should have sincere interest for the betterment of the household, to everybody's surprise and to my amusement, my grandmother instructed 'ponnan' a dalit to enter the house!)
I am sure, I am not the only one person with such broad outlook towards others in this forum.

You said:-
“People who live in Glass houses must not throw stones at others.”

Exactly my views too. Why don’t you find out the differences between ‘Nadar Christian’, mudaliar Christian, Brahmin Christian, and a dalit Christian? Don’t tell me they don’t exist. Unlike you, I give references. Here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit_Christian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians
Go and clean your yard first. We are always cleaning our yard.
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear all,

What does anyone gain by finding manmade loopholes in various religions and have vadam and prativadam on technical grounds?
Its not really nice to read about Krishna,Rama and Jesus being ridiculed here.

You can't light up your home by blowing another's flame
Cos' the flame in you and me is one and the same.


Please remember Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.

Sow. sri. Renukakarthikayan,

Good to see you again. No, Rama, Krishna or jesus are not ridiculed here. Only the people following dogmas are ridiculed. If I take the job of cleaning a sewer, I always get into the sewer and start cleaning. I am sorry. I like to convey mesages in the language that the intended reader understands. Some times it stinks.
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
The time has come for me to openly talk about myself. Kindly don’t judge me as a very polite person from a few postings I have made in this forum. I have been known only for my impoliteness, rudeness and argumentativeness. As of today, my village has not forgotten the arrogance I displayed in my youth. The village has accepted that I know how to respect others; that’s all. For many years in various forums I was only debating. I have not defended Hinduism all the time either. I thought I had enough of all that. Here, in this forum, I did not want to debate at all (‘dabate’ with Sri. Nara can not be counted. He never debated with me but only corrected me). But if a debate is thrust down our throat, I don’t think we should take it lying down. I request the learned members to kindly comment on this, please. Thank you.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Raghy,

I admire your courage and spirit.

But as i said earlier its sad to see Krishna,Rama and Jesus dragged into our human conflicts.
Each form of divinity needs to be given the due respect.

Thats why i humbly request that forms of divinity be left out of this debate.
This is my humble plea to everyone and not just Raghy alone.

The debate can go on and we can defend ourselves when provoked thats just a normal human reflex "Fight, Flight Response".

But do not let too much adrenaline flow in our veins its effect on health are not really good and condusive.
 
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RVR

Well-known member
Sri Raghy,

We always appreciate your views. I have seen you in other threads also. Nobody is under estimating your capabilities.

Simply because somebody is beating us, we should not take the law into our hands.

Any reasonable argument, we can counter to the best of our abilities. But somebody spreads hatred against our community, there is no point arguing with that guy.

We are a miniscule minority in the entire globe. Still we have produced a Ramanujam, C V Raman, Chandrasekhar, Srinivasa Varadhan and Ramakrishnan. Let those who started hate campaign against our community in Tamilnadu produce people of such calibre instead of showing enmity.

We are not obstructing anybody's path. We have withdrawn from the various positions in Tamilnadu which our forefathers held and still they are not unable to destroy us.

These people are talking out of pure jealous and nothing else.

Let us not fight with such people. Let us concentrate on the development of our community.

All the best
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri RVR,

Thanks for your views. I respect your views. I am happy that I have come to this polite environment. Sincerely I do not like to upset the harmony of this nice forum. I will follow your suggestion and Sri. Renukakarthikayan's suggestion, and refrain from any more debating.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Raghy,

Really nice and thoughtful of you.

Dont you think you answered your own question" Who Is a Brahmanan?"
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri Mohanakrishnan asked :-

“if jathi(here varnam) is not by birth ,then y krishna asked arjuna and ordered him to fight??krishna said ,o arjuna it is ur duty (karma) to fight...
why did he do??”


Sri Mohanakrishnan,
You have answered your own question partly in your post. Krishna’s suggestion to fight did not base upon varna or jati. Whether they were based upon birth or choice did not have any relevance with the Kurukshetra war. Dharma was very silly enough to take part in a gambling game in which he lost everything including his wife. That is a different point to discuss. How ever, it was the condition agreed upon the winners to return everything after 13 years. That condition was not met Kuaravas. All negotiations were found unfruitful. That was when the war was suggested. Pandavas did not have to take that path. In my humble opinion, that war of Kurukshetra had more in it than eye could see.

Sri Mohanakrishnan asked:-
“if a persons occupation(varnam) should be finalised when v know about is character...(guna karam vibha....)
when u ll know one complete character,generally at the age of 20,21..
then upto that age,what should that person do???simply playing??? wat a studpid concept!!
it means,again it is against to krishnas statement that "do ur duty dont be idle (karma pannu)"


Dronacharya, a caste Brahmin was a class mate to ‘Dirupathan’; Krishna, a Kshatriya was a class mate to kusela, a caste Brahmin. Although I am not digging for more references, I think, all the three varnas studied together the basics in the early years. Then more specialised studies were taken up in the specific fields. Was that by choice or based on birth is debatable though.

Sri Mohankrishnan’s second question :-
“in bhagavad gita,when arjuna sees huge people ,he says ,all the people were killed ,then there will be no progeny ,
there are lakhs of people,kshatriyas ,when many of them killed ,every one has family ,the family has wife ,children.
then who will protect them.so they will have extra sexual relations because no husband from that varna.....
it leads to intercaste problem(varna sankaram),so we should not fight now..

this is what arjuna said to krishna.....
y arjuna said like that becaue they were following varnashrama dharma...”


Sir, Kindly read the initial posts in this thread. Sri. Nara has explained those slokas very well.

Mohanakrishnan’s 3rd question :-
krishna says,when a person follows his own kula dharma and he is killed for that ,it is better than following
other dharma ...alway swadharmanushtanam is great!!!
y krishna said like that


Sri Mohanakrishnan,
Yes. Krishna said something very similar to that.
Atha cet tvam imam dharmyam sangramam na karisyasi
Tatah sva-dharmam kirtim ca hitva papam avapsyasi – BG – 2:33
Here Krishna says to Arjuna, if he withdrew from fighting, he would lose his sva-dharmam and reputation and fame and incur sin!
This is a very pointed question from Sri. Mohanakrishnan. If Krishna did not believe in birth based varna classifications, in his pep talk to Arjuna, Krishna need not mention about Sva-dharma.
Sri. Mohanakrishnan, I don’t have a proper answer to this question. Hopefully others may have a proper reply.

The final bit in your post is beyond my understanding. Personally, I believe that everyone belongs to every varna at different times, as I explained my views in a different post in this same thread.
 
OP
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R

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear Raghy,

Really nice and thoughtful of you.

Dont you think you answered your own question" Who Is a Brahmanan?"

Sow. Sri. Renukakarthikayan,

Thank you. No. I have not answered that question yet. There is a long way to go. Thanks for your encouragements.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
"When adharma prevails,O Krishna, women of the family stray from virtue and when they are unchaste,O descendent of Vrishni there is generated an unholy mixture of classes(varnasankar)"

a nice explanation is given by Paramhansa Swami Adgadanand in Yatharth Geeta.

"When unrighteous ways dominate a family, its women lose their chastity and there arises an intermingling of different classes,of incompatible cultures and way of living.
According to Arjuna, this sinful intermingling occurs when women lose their virtue.
But Krishna contradicts this" I am fully contented in the Self and there is nothing more precious which is beyond My reach.Yet I continue to practise meditation and renunciation and urge others to do the same.But these are only means and not the goal, and when the goal is achieved who cares for the means?
So if the achiever such as I neglets the means, his followers of an inferior merit will emulate him and they too will give up the required means.
Confused and misled from the path of Self Realization, they then perish.
Lacking in true achievement,they only swagger emptily as if they were perfect.
This imitation creates a chaos. There remains no distinction between the deserving and the underserving.This confusion is Varnasankar ans the teacher himself is held responsible for this disorder.That is why an ideal teacher always teaches by his own conduct."
 
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Nara

Well-known member
Dear Mr. BR:

Greetings!

First, let me tell you there was no need for you to hide behind a misleading screen name and try to pass off as a Hindu who respects Jesus as one of the many gods. I have seen pictures of Jesus in one of my Iyer friends who, while not orthodox, but definitely a Hindu without believing all the theistic Christian dogma.

You could have come in openly as a Christian and sought out a debate on issues. You would have been welcome with open arms as we are trying to do right now. In fact, my own personal heathenistic views are not very popular here, but they show me every deference that an open person can hope for. So, before we begin let me welcome you to the sunshine.

Alright, I think there are three parts to this discussion of merits between Hinduism and Christianity, namely, (i) underlying philosophical foundation, (ii) "historical" traditions, and (iii) current practices. You have covered all three in one way or another in your long critique of Hinduism. I wish to take these three one by one.

Let us start with the philosophical foundation. This sounds rather ambitious. I am not intending to cover everything here. I will restrict myself to the most important aspect of any religious philosophy, namely, the nature of soul and மோக்ஷோபாயா. If I get any detail wrong I welcome any member to correct me -- that is an opportunity for me to learn.

In Hindu/Vedic philosophy, even though there are many differences among the various schools, there is agreement on a few fundamentals. They are,
  1. all jeevas are destined to மோக்ஷம்
  2. jeeva take many births due to their own karma
  3. during their lives the good and bad that happen to them are not capricious, but result from ones own accumulated karma

When it comes to the means to moksham, different schools have different views. But there is no difference that all jeevas will attain mOksham at one time or another.

Now, my understanding of Christian/biblical view, I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong,
  1. jeevas are created by god
  2. these jeevas come with original sin
  3. this original sin comes from Adam and Eve disobeying god
  4. Jesus gave his life on the cross for the sake of the jeevas to get moksham (heaven)
  5. to get to moksham you have to accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept Jesus as your savior
  6. you accept Jesus as your savior through baptism -- there may be some difference here among evangelicals, even so, I think the belief that for moksham you must accept that Jesus gave his life on the cross for your sins is common to all denominations
  7. since there is no reincarnation, this mokshopaya is available only till you die, after that you have to wait till judgment day, and then go to heaven or hell depending upon whether you have adopted the mOkshpaya
  8. if you don't accept Jesus as the savior, after the end days, you will be sent to hell where you will burn for eternity

If you buy into the Hindu/Vedic belief system, then there is not a whole lot of criticism that can be laid on the theoretical aspects. If you have any criticism on the theory, please let me know.

Of course when it comes to practice there are some problems, but we have to first complete this discussion on the theoretical concepts. We will get to the other parts after that.

However, there are a lot of nagging questions with regard to Christian system. I give you a few below.

  1. When creating the jeevas why does god bestow original sin on the jeeva? After all, he/she did not have anything to do with Adam and Eve.
  2. Why are there differences among human beings, some are rich, some are poor, some are born healthy, some are not, etc.?
  3. Why would a compassionate god give just one attempt and keep the mokshopaya very hard to believe?
  4. Why would a wise god let good people go to eternal hell because they have doubts about the authenticity of the Christian mokshopaya, given the validity of it is so unreasonable?
  5. Would not a compassionate and wise god give as much evidence as possible to the hapless humans, and, punish them so severely as to condemn them to eternity only if they refuse to believe in spite of the mountain of evidence? Instead, all we have are second hand account recorded about 100 years after the event.

Alright, Mr. BR, I will stop here for now. After we discuss this to our mutual satisfaction we can move on to the other two parts. If you wish to add more categories I welcome that as well.

For this discussion to be coherent, we need to proceed in a serious and organized fashion. I hope you will respond with the same seriousness I have shown to your POV.

Cheers!
 
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