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Who is brahmanan

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sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

I do not believe in the classification of Guna Varna(Varna based on Gunas)..that was never ever practiced anywhere.

Even Yuddhisthira in his conversation with the Yaksha was giving some cock and bull that one is a Brahmin by gunas etc.

You see if what he said is true that Varna is not based on birth but based on Gunas then why Yudhisthira always called Karna a Suta Putra?

Didn't Karna display Kshatriya Guna?

Only after Yuddhi knew that the slain Karna was his brother only then his mindset changed.

Varna is by birth and that is no doubt of that and there in nothing wrong with that.

Calling another person another Varna equals to the most feared by some... 'Varnasankarah"

Dear Renuka,

Yudhistra is not the last word on how the classification is done. I think Krishna makes it clear that the gunas are the basis of classification into four groups. That should be taken as authoritative.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

Yudhistra is not the last word on how the classification is done. I think Krishna makes it clear that the gunas are the basis of classification into four groups. That should be taken as authoritative.

Dear Sravna,

So in that case is there a person from a particular Varna who will be willing to claim they belong to another Varna based on Gunas?

Ok lets start with you.

Which Varna do you consider yourself based on Gunas alone and why... then I will also give answers about my own self to be fair.
 
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sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

So in that case is there a person from a particular Varna who will be willing to claim they belong to another Varna based on Gunas?

Ok lets start with you.

Which Varna do you consider yourself based on Gunas alone and why... then I will also give answers about my own self to be fair.

Dear Renuka,

Self assessment is not the right way to be classified into a varna. It is the least objective. since there seemed to be no feasible ways to classify one into a varna, I think birth based classification became prevalent. It is probably not the best way but since qualities are to a large extent inherited birth based classification offers a solution.

Since varna classification specifies the occupation that one is fit to be in based on the guna, I would say success in a particular occupation could be used as the basis of classification. So it is not just because you are born into a brahmin family say, you are fit to be an advisor but because you are a good advisor, you are fit to be a brahmin.

I am not going into the practical utility of such a classification but only outlining one possible way of classification other than by birth.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

Self assessment is not the right way to be classified into a varna. It is the least objective. since there seemed to be no feasible ways to classify one into a varna, I think birth based classification became prevalent. It is probably not the best way but since qualities are to a large extent inherited birth based classification offers a solution.

Since varna classification specifies the occupation that one is fit to be in based on the guna, I would say success in a particular occupation could be used as the basis of classification. So it is not just because you are born into a brahmin family say, you are fit to be an advisor but because you are a good advisor, you are fit to be a brahmin.

I am not going into the practical utility of such a classification but only outlining one possible way of classification other than by birth.

Dear Sravna,

In other words you havent answered my question.

Self assessment and introspection is the best way to judge one own self.

What is so hard about that?

Example of self assessment.


Most important point to have before claiming to have Sattva Guna.

1)Constant Coordination in Thought, Word and Deed(Trikarana Suddhi)

If this is NOT present..then one does not have Sattva Guna ..hence can not be classified as the first 3 Varnas based on Guna.

I would never dare to claim I have Constant Coordination in Thought,Word and Deed.


Its not too hard to find ourselves in the Guna Varna scale.
 
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Dear Krish ji,

Actually if you read my last few replies..I have never named any caste and never even mentioned the word Brahmin as in targetting any caste.My post were quite neutral that we need to give anyone their due respect and not claim they are like us etc. I think it was you who thought that Nara ji was targeting Brahmins.
So I also wonder why you keep mentioning about caste in your replies.

For me I view all humans as the same but at the same time we need to respect their individuality.

I enjoy being a member in this TB forum and also a being a member in a Dalit blog cos it nice to see how different minds think.

So you see I have no problems if a Brahmin or Dalit is forced to look at everything thru the prism of caste as long everyone acknowledges there can be goodness in anyone.
dear Madam
To tell you frankly I did not think Naraji was targetting brahmins as a community. I was upset at his finding inner meaning in RRji s innocent comment on a muslim visiting her house.and he tried finding inner meanings ,sermonising her taking it to be his moral right.
This is a tamil brahmin forum . a forum based on caste divisions.hence I might have talked of caste and mindsets In facebook I may not ever mention the same. In fact my child did not know he was a brahmin untll he joined engg in tamil nadu after schooling in delhi. He franticallically rang me from chennai to know whether he was a forward caste as it had to be mentioned in the admission form.
Whichever community anyone belongs to is of least concern to me
Ultimately all humans irrespective of caste,religion are the same. As you might have observed in my other posts ,I have mentioned that there some members belonging to other religions in my extended family
whenever I found members with liberal mindset I have applauded maintaining a silence on the others in order not to hurt them
I have made fun of sermon and preacher types gently pulling their legs and also offending them
I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum
I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and repartees
best wishes
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

In other words you havent answered my question.

Self assessment and introspection is the best way to judge one own self.

What is so hard about that?

Example of self assessment.


Most important point to have before claiming to have Sattva Guna.

1)Constant Coordination in Thought, Word and Deed(Trikarana Suddhi)

If this is NOT present..then one does not have Sattva Guna ..hence can not be classified as the first 3 Varnas based on Guna.

I would never dare to claim I have Constant Coordination in Thought,Word and Deed.


Its not too hard to find ourselves in the Guna Varna scale.

Dear Renuka,

I am not saying about knowing oneself but about others accepting our self assessment.
 

renuka

Well-known member
:rockon:
dear Madam
To tell you frankly I did not think Naraji was targetting brahmins as a community. I was upset at his finding inner meaning in RRji s innocent comment on a muslim visiting her house.and he tried finding inner meanings ,sermonising her taking it to be his moral right.
This is a tamil brahmin forum . a forum based on caste divisions.hence I might have talked of caste and mindsets In facebook I may not ever mention the same. In fact my child did not know he was a brahmin untll he joined engg in tamil nadu after schooling in delhi. He franticallically rang me from chennai to know whether he was a forward caste as it had to be mentioned in the admission form.
Whichever community anyone belongs to is of least concern to me
Ultimately all humans irrespective of caste,religion are the same. As you might have observed in my other posts ,I have mentioned that there some members belonging to other religions in my extended family
whenever I found members with liberal mindset I have applauded maintaining a silence on the others in order not to hurt them
I have made fun of sermon and preacher types gently pulling their legs and also offending them
I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum
I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and repartees
best wishes


Dear Krish ji,

No problems yaar..:rockon:

regards

renu
 
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renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

I am not saying about knowing oneself but for others to accept our self assessment.

Dear Sravna,

Why should others accept our self assessment?
After all didn't Lord Krishna say :

Chapter 6. Sankhya-yoga
TEXT 5
uddhared atmanatmanam
natmanam avasadayet
atmaiva hy atmano bandhur
atmaiva ripur atmanah
SYNONYMS
bump.gif
uddharet--one must deliver; atmana--by the mind; atmanam--the conditioned soul; na--never; atmanam--the conditioned soul;avasadayet--put into degradation; atma--mind; eva--certainly; hi--indeed; atmanah--of the conditioned soul; bandhuh--friend; atma--mind;eva--certainly; ripuh--enemy; atmanah--of the conditioned soul.
TRANSLATION
bump.gif
A man must elevate himself by his own mind, not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well.


Lord Krishna did not mention about others in His sermon... all He mentioned was one's own mind!
 
dear Madam
To tell you frankly I did not think Naraji was targetting brahmins as a community. I was upset at his finding inner meaning in RRji s innocent comment on a muslim visiting her house.and he tried finding inner meanings ,sermonising her taking it to be his moral right.
This is a tamil brahmin forum . a forum based on caste divisions.hence I might have talked of caste and mindsets In facebook I may not ever mention the same. In fact my child did not know he was a brahmin untll he joined engg in tamil nadu after schooling in delhi. He franticallically rang me from chennai to know whether he was a forward caste as it had to be mentioned in the admission form.
Whichever community anyone belongs to is of least concern to me
Ultimately all humans irrespective of caste,religion are the same. As you might have observed in my other posts ,I have mentioned that there some members belonging to other religions in my extended family
whenever I found members with liberal mindset I have applauded maintaining a silence on the others in order not to hurt them
I have made fun of sermon and preacher types gently pulling their legs and also offending them
I have thoroughly enjoyed this forum
I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and repartees
best wishes

Per Ayurveda, a person who consumes mushrooms, onion, garlic, wine, and enjoys the pleasures of the flesh belongs to the tamas guna. Wonder which guna I fall under :) since I do not consider any of these wrong..
 

sravna

Well-known member
No Renuka, there has to be an objective assessment if the assessment is to serve its utility just as the varna system helps in fitting people into occupations according to their guna, But I agree for inner development one does not have to worry about others
 
thanks. added to my knowledge
at best I can be a Brahmabandu as the nomenclature appeals to me feeling like a Trishanku between heaven and earth
Those Brahmin traits and practices which do not meet the needs of 21st century require to be discarded
An order based on equality and gender justice needs to emerge
I am an arm chair marxist of indian seventies

Dear Shri krish44,

a brahmabandhu is not a non-brahmin, but he is a "fallen brahmana" who has just escaped banishment/ostracization from the brahmin community. For example, a 'brahma bandhu' should not be invited as a 'brahmana' for sraaddham nor should be associated with the cooking of the havis and items for the sraaddha meals.

What Smt. Renuka said about 'brahmabandhu' was just the definition part.
 

renuka

Well-known member


Dear Shri krish44,

a brahmabandhu is not a non-brahmin, but he is a "fallen brahmana" who has just escaped banishment/ostracization from the brahmin community. For example, a 'brahma bandhu' should not be invited as a 'brahmana' for sraaddham nor should be associated with the cooking of the havis and items for the sraaddha meals.

What Smt. Renuka said about 'brahmabandhu' was just the definition part.


Dear Sangom ji,

The very reason I quoted the text was to highlight the same point you brought up..that is a Non Practicing Brahmin does NOT become a Non Brahmin.

Cos most people think that if a Brahmin does not follow his life style he becomes a Non Brahmin.

A reject of one Varna does not become another Varna.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Per Ayurveda, a person who consumes mushrooms, onion, garlic, wine, and enjoys the pleasures of the flesh belongs to the tamas guna. Wonder which guna I fall under :) since I do not consider any of these wrong..

Dear Shri ashwin_ash,

Not considering pleasures wrong is one thing but being immersed in pleasures is another thing. I too do not consider any of the above wrong but I consider myself sattvic because I am not addicted to any of the above.
 
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Being born in a brahmin family ,many believe gives them the previlege to decide whether some belonging to other castes/religions can be admitted into their fold based on their food preferances and other behavioural traits and confer a title belonging to their community on them to say you are one of us. Hindu brahmins consider themself to be most holy with all the goodness in them and they look down on everyone else. It comes naturally to them . Hinduism has great capacity for absorption . Jains,buddhists have become part of the hindu religion and hindus have treated mahavira and buddha as avathars of God. Sikhs have escaped this fate so far. Muslims and christians are more rigid and do not tolerate the hindu appraoch. muslims/christians are marginilised communities in india Their fate is likely to get worse if a certain party gets political power

Dear Shri krish44,

I agree with you in that "brahmins consider themself to be most holy with all the goodness in them and they look down on everyone else."

I presume you were born in 1944 and so your experiences have been mostly of the post-Independence period when the stronghold of caste was fast becoming weaker in the hindu society. But you will be surprised to know that even in government schools (not the high-end convents and private managed schools) a puny little brahmin boy could thrash a well-built low caste boy and yet the latter would not hit back due to the reverence for "brahmins" and the fear of a curse from a brahmana. (This was told to me by my elder cousins who were ten or more years elder to myself. That was the sway which the "brahmin" label once had.

Buddha was first co-opted as an avataara by Jayadeva in his ashTapadee, but till recently our brahmin folks were reluctant to concede this status to Siddhartha Gowthama, the Sakya prince; our pravachanakaaras were often heard interpreting the word "buddha" in the geethagovinda as meaning 'people with developed intellects' and things like that.

As regards Jains, though the word "RUSHABHA" occurs in some puranas, Jainism has not been accepted as part of hinduism just as buddhism has also not been so far accepted. May be today tabras are intermarrying with buddhists and jains but that is only inter-religious marriage.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Shri ashwin_ash,

Not considering pleasures wrong is one thing but being immersed in pleasures is another thing. I too do not consider any of the above wrong but I consider myself sattvic because I am addicted to any of the above.

Dear Sravna,

There is a typo in your post..I think you wanted to convey you are NOT addicted.

BTW here you are clearly stating that you consider yourself Sattva..so why did you not want to answer my question about Guna Varna?
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

There is a typo in your post..I think you wanted to convey you are NOT addicted.

BTW here you are clearly stating that you consider yourself Sattva..so why did you not want to answer my question about Guna Varna?

Dear Renuka,

Yes that's a typo. I did not answer the question because the purpose of the question is how to classify into a varna for which I felt self assessment would not be very helpful. If you really want to know my self assessment or at least my aspiration, I would want to imbibe if possible, the good features of all the varnas. The wisdom and compassion of sattva, the intelligence and valor of a rajas , and the shrewdness of a rajo-tamas.

Don't call that as anniyan!
 
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Dear Sangom ji,

The very reason I quoted the text was to highlight the same point you brought up..that is a Non Practicing Brahmin does NOT become a Non Brahmin.

Cos most people think that if a Brahmin does not follow his life style he becomes a Non Brahmin.

A reject of one Varna does not become another Varna.
Great i am relieved That I need not go to shraadh and cook anything . suits me fine. so only bramabandhu without any other Varna
It is like ashok chakra grade awards with different stripes .LOL
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

Actually the Movie Anniyan is also about Gunas.

Ambi is Sattva

Remo is Rajas

Anniyan is Tamas.

So to a certain extent we humans are Multiple Guna Disorder!LOL

Dear Renuka,

I want it to be a multiple guna order and definitely not a disorder!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

I want it to be a multiple guna order and definitely not a disorder!


Dear Sravna,

Its a Disorder cos you see if all Gunas are in Order as in equilibrium..even Creation and Saguna Brahman would not exists!
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,

Its a Disorder cos you see if all Gunas are in Order as in equilibrium..even Creation and Saguna Brahman would not exists!

Dear Renuka,

For creation and bondage there has to be disorder but the only way for salvation is order.
 
This canard that somehow good character defines who a Brahmin is, is so ingrained that even otherwise nice and reasonable people seem to accept it in a kind of default way. I beseech these otherwise reasonable folks to stop for a moment and think about what they are saying. If good character defines Brahmins, then what defines a Shudra? Folks, I am not your enemy, all I want to be is a witness to your conscience, and if that is presumptuous of me I apologize.

It is presumptuous to sit atop Eiffel Tower donning Sigmund Freud shoes and start asking others to scratch their conscience, dig deeper etc and acting as a super conscience keeper, request for apology notwithstanding. This attitude comes from ingrained self conceit that the poster knows more about others than they know about themselves.

The point in question was whether Wahab Saheb accepted the "Iyer" tag as a compliment or thought it was condescending. The narrator and the hearers of the episode need not have to certify whether it was complimentary or uncomplimentary.
 
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Raji Ram

Active member
Now I feel sad for dragging the nice friendship of my dad with Wahab Ji in this thread!

My their souls pardon me! :hail:
 

renuka

Well-known member
It is presumptuous to sit atop Eiffel Tower donning Sigmund Freud shoes and start asking others to scratch their conscience, dig deeper etc and acting as a super conscience keeper, request for apology notwithstanding. This attitude comes from ingrained self conceit that the poster knows more about others than they know about themselves.

The point in question was whether Wahab Saheb accepted the "Iyer" tag as a compliment or thought it was condescending. The narrator and the hearers of the episode need not have to certify whether it was complimentary or uncomplimentary.


Dear Zebra ji,

I dont know why..but I feel Nara ji is being misunderstood here.

The fact remains is if we try to give a caste pseudonym to anyone else who is not of our caste becos we feel he or she displays favorable qualities that only goes to show that we did not feel his/her caste is capable of having such an individual.

I think that was what Nara ji was trying to convey...wonder why no one is reading his post like how I am reading.

Now let me put a question like this..would it be a compliment to an Upper caste Hindu if a Dalit would give the upper caste a Dalit tag?? Wont all hell break loose? Even the upper caste that does not practice his Svadharma would get real mad I am pretty sure.

In this no world one needs compliments or insults..just mutual respect would do.

Best example was when Mandela died..many Indians were calling him the Gandhi of South Africa..tell me was that fair? Mandela did not have to be Gandhi to be acknowledged..he was great in his own right.
 
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It is presumptuous to sit atop Eiffel Tower donning Sigmund Freud shoes and start asking others to scratch their conscience, dig deeper etc and acting as a super conscience keeper, request for apology notwithstanding. This attitude comes from ingrained self conceit that the poster knows more about others than they know about themselves.

The point in question was whether Wahab Saheb accepted the "Iyer" tag as a compliment or thought it was condescending. The narrator and the hearers of the episode need not have to certify whether it was complimentary or uncomplimentary.
zebra16 who is better Conscience keeping Atheist or Godmen of doubtful credentials.Toss a coin and decide if you cannot make up your mind
 
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