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Tambrams should embrace Ravana as their own- not reject him

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Raavan could not force himself on Sita for this simple reason: He had been cursed by a beauty whom he violated that if ever he forced himself on any woman in future, his head would burst into a thousand pieces. Otherwise why he would beg and plead to a mere mortal and make himself a laughing stock in the eyes of his other wives and lovers in his harem?


You know I really don't buy into this whole theory that the Ramayana happened because Ravana lusted for Sita. There is no solid ground to believe that Sita was a jaw-dropping beauty. Of course being the heroine of the story, the authors naturally made the usual assumptions. I think this is too big an epic to characterize it as one man/demon/whatever pursuing a woman/goddess/whatever. If you read through it, it was more like Ravana having an ego problem with Rama and the southward-moving northerners and playing a complicated game to crush them. Sita just was a convenient person to kidnap so that Rama could be entrapped. She was held hostage so that Rama could be lured in and defeated. It just didn't turn out that way. To those who talk about Ravana's love/lust for Sita, I have one simple question. Why didn't he force himself on to her?
 
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Sure enough I meant Brahmins being bashed. :whip:
The extra 's' made the meaning ambiguous! :confused:
I should read Brahmin Bashing. :becky:


Dear Madam,
I think and hope you meant 'Brahmins being bashed', not 'Brahmins bashing'

We have quite a few out here. Do you really need one more? :)
 
Being able to fight and overcome the offenders is
ONE THING.

But at mentally one must feel committed to protect one's family.

Here even this aspect is missing! :doh:

A husband is defined as three "P"s

Protector, Provider and the other P everyone knows.

So I do not want to put it in black and white.

So protecting and providing for one's family have greater

priority than a man's demands on the conjugal rights and

liberties.

Women are also REAL PEOPLE- not just playthings,

not properties to be taken if someone wishes to possess

them and not slaves to be used and dumped at will.

I agree with you Mrs. Ramani,

It is another scared brahmin can not even promise to protect his family. Why would you want a family? Looks like you want a sex slave and a house keeper.
LOL.

There are some sacrifice you have to make for your family.
 
Thank you Mr. kunjuppu for rising to the occasion. :pray2:

This is "bachchaa stuff" (kid's stuff) and I don't mind such things any more. :whistle:

I too have become more mature after joining the forum and even sport a silver crown of glorious white hair!:nerd:

Remember I stopped Dyeing (my hair) and started living after joining the forum?

I will try to add my latest photo so that new bee bachchas will desist from making such comments. :)

let me pray assure you, ashwinash, visalakshi, is 100% tambram mami - well versed in bharatanatyam and a poet in her own right.

i disagree with her, occassionally on views, but i think, she is a mighty fine person, who demands everyone's respect here. if you dont mind, i think, you owe, at the least an apology, to mrs. visa.

thank you.
 
यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ॥

परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् ।
धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे...
As a tambram, and as a saivite, I'd rather have a fellow tambram prevent my race from hurtling towards extinction. Whether that fellow tambram is Ravana or Parasurama is immaterial. I wanted this thread to highlight the fact that we tambrams (iyers and saivites, at least) are hurting towards doom, and there's nobody to unite us. Innocents among us are persecuted, and there's nobody to save us.
Will India Cements, TVS, Infosys, TCS and all assorted tambram led companies unite to save our fellow caste members? NO, NEVER. This is why I saw the need to unite behind a powerful (even if disgusting and violent) symbol for our own preservation.
If I offended people in the process, I am sorry. I will keep this discussion civilized henceforth.
 
Dear Shri Nara,

As you know Ramayana is, for me, a story written in a very longish way, like the super-mega serials in tv nowadays. So, if my views do not suit some people, I request their pardon.

For me, ramayana seems to have been an attempt by some sanskrit-scholar scribe who, after hearing about the Greek epics somehow, attempted his own "desi" version. It is also possible that the said scribe had some inputs about Iliad proper, he chose a poetic metre also somewhat close to the original. (This is my view as an ignoramus and I welcome corrections/criticism for my improved knowledge.)

So, when this writer wanted a very similar set-up to that of Iliad, he had to have a mainland and another land to be reached across the sea, where the hero's kidnapped wife was kept imprisoned. Our Indian scribe immediately remembered Lanka and he made his hero, Rama, wend his way through the entire south India.

I am not sure if, as jaykay postulates, african+yedda, white+black egyptian priests would have depicted their own folk, dravidians, as monkeys.

Coming to Ravana vs Rama, I think it is, once again, the victor who lays down the rules. Ravana, we say, kidnapped Rama's wife which is against Sanatana Dharma. So Rama killed Ravana. How far is this correct? Rama, in theory, lived in the treta yuga not kaliyuga. The prohibition against sexual intercourse with another's wife came about after Uddalaka Shvetaketu banned it as "kalivarjya" and there was no such rule in tretayuga, obviously. So, what wrong did Ravana commit, if as a 'rAkShasa' he wanted to enjoy a woman he desired.

I, therefore, think Rama was a mere mercenary in the hands of his character's creators, to propagate and enforce their own povs without regard to whatever had been written by their own fraternity elsewhere.

In mho, a man who does not trust his wife should not have gone to far-off Lanka to wage a war, with the help of monkeys, and subsequently abandon the pregnant wife based on some gossip. Rama is not only a wimp of the worst order but an unreliable husband too. Ravana to me comes out as a brave and devout king who was, unfortunately, ditched by vibheeshaNa.
Sangom Sir,

Its sorta amusing to see some posters going the way as though 'dravidians' were the beginning of everything, and even more comical to see some claiming tambrams must associate with ravana and all that... :D

Anyways, coming to your post, as regards the point in bold, i do not think owls, patridge birds, dogs, monkeys, etc were looked down upon as lowly creatures once upon a time.

Though there is no proof, the more i study totemic animals, i feel groups of people identified their geographical area based on animals. That is to say, they lived in an area where there were plentiful tigers or monkeys or dogs or Owls, etc.

Imagine days when there was nothing called 'besant nagar' or 'adayar'. How wud one identify the locale in which he lives?

Unless men wandered away to faraway regions, it may be possible to persume that a wide geographic region was 'characterised' by which animal inhabited that area in plentiful numbers. Hence it became a 'totemic' animal.

Additionally, when men learnt to protect themselves from attacking tigers, attacking monkeys, attacking owls, etc (or even hunt them down for food), they most likely used the same camouflage as the animals. Even today there are tribals in africa who decorate their skin with zebra stripes, tiger stripes, etc

I think it was about men imitating an animal, which he thought was ferocious and terrifying, and either triumphing over that very animal or wearing that animal's camouflage to protect himself from it.

Men in the past i feel were merged with nature and hence did not characterise any animal as lowly or high.

Maybe you will find this interesting - as we can understand from this work, beauty does not need a context...anything merged with nature appeared beautiful (or powerful) to ancient men (or conveyed some meaning, social context, etc) - Amazon.com: Natural Fashion: Tribal Decoration from Africa (9780500288054): Hans Silvester: Books

Men and apes are no different. Men like apes are strongly territorial and defend their boundries. So when a particular group of men (of say the monkey totem), made powerful conquests, maybe their totemic identities gained pre-eminence, and came to become part of mainstream 'religion'.

Maybe in an urban context, a particular animal may be considered lowly. But back in the past, maybe that same animal conveyed a social position of some standing (in a range of people using various totemic identifications).

Also sir, maybe we are giving too much importance to the word 'dravidian'. We must remember that Robert Caldwell coined the term 'Dravidian', and that too from the Sanskrit "drāvida", which was used in a 7th century text to refer to the Tamil language.

I would be glad to see evidence, how did others refer to Tamil language or Tamilians (or how did tamilians refer to themselves or their own language), in an ancient past.

Personally, i do not think there is anything called a dravidian monolith. I presume various tribals of the south have been waging war against one another for conquests of land / resources (as humans everywhere else have done), unless there is a particular reason to think otherwise (meaning to say the context of 'dravidian' as a single 'united' entity is lacking).

These tribals could have come from anywhere to the south (or vice-versa), and tried to make a common place their 'home'. They may have fought, merged, then formed a composite tribe..they cud have taken an animal totem to signify their place of residence or prowess at any time (before or after a merger)...

Speaking of prowess, lets not underestimate 'guerreilla' warfare, signified by ambushes, raids, etc - which is how tribal wars were. Though there were no gorillas in 'guerrilla' warfare, such raids, ambushes, did signify 'war', power and prowess in an ancient time (despite being so very far from the cavalry, etc of later day armies).

Regards.
 
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Dear Sangom, To clarify, I am referring to the yedda (Aborginals) as the monkey people in Ramayana !. Before the egytian mixed race landed in South India, they were already occupied by the aborginals. if you go to andaman you can still see them !! no offence to anyone !
With due respect, perhaps you missed out that Andaman and Nicobar islands were inhabited by distinct tribes (linguistically distinct and also origin wise theorised to be distinct from one another). So which do you mean were the yedda (Aborginals) as the monkey people of Ramayan?
 
Sangom Sir,

Its sorta amusing to see some posters going the way as though 'dravidians' were the beginning of everything, and even more comical to see some claiming tambrams must associate with ravana and all that... :D

Anyways, coming to your post, as regards the point in bold, i do not think owls, patridge birds, dogs, monkeys, etc were looked down upon as lowly creatures once upon a time.

Though there is no proof, the more i study totemic animals, i feel groups of people identified their geographical area based on animals. That is to say, they lived in an area where there were plentiful tigers or monkeys or dogs or Owls, etc.

Imagine days when there was nothing called 'besant nagar' or 'adayar'. How wud one identify the locale in which he lives?

Unless men wandered away to faraway regions, it may be possible to persume that a wide geographic region was 'characterised' by which animal inhabited that area in plentiful numbers. Hence it became a 'totemic' animal.

Additionally, when men learnt to protect themselves from attacking tigers, attacking monkeys, attacking owls, etc (or even hunt them down for food), they most likely used the same camouflage as the animals. Even today there are tribals in africa who decorate their skin with zebra stripes, tiger stripes, etc

I think it was about men imitating an animal he though was ferocious and terrifying, and either triumphing over that very animal or wearing that animal's camouflage so as to protect himself from it.

Men in the past i feel were merged with nature and hence did not characterise any animal as lowly or high

Maybe you will find this interesting - as we can understand from this work, beauty does not need a context...anything merged with nature appeared beautiful (or powerful) to ancient men (or conveyed some meaning, social context, etc) - Amazon.com: Natural Fashion: Tribal Decoration from Africa (9780500288054): Hans Silvester: Books

Men and apes are no different, Men like apes are strongly territorial and defend their boundries in which they live. So when a particualr group of men (of say the monkey totem), made powerful conquests, maybe their totemic identities gained preeminence, and came to become part of mainstream 'religion'.

Maybe in an urban context, a particular animal may be considered lowly. But back in the past, maybe that same animal conveyed a social position of some standing (in a range of people using various totemic identifications).

Also sir, maybe we are giving too much importance to the word 'dravidian'. We must remember that Robert Caldwell coined the term 'Dravidian', and that too from the Sanskrit "drāvida", which was used in a 7th century text to refer to the Tamil language.

I would be glad to see evidence, how did others refer to Tamil language or to Tamilians (or how did tamilians refer to themselves or their own language), in an ancient past.

Personally, i do not think there is anything called a dravidian monolith. I presume various tribals of the south have been waging war against one another for conquests of land / resources (as humans everywhere else have done), unless there is a particular reason to think otherwise (meaning to say the context of 'dravidian' as a single 'united' entity is lacking).

These tribals could have come from anywhere to the south (or vice-versa), and tried to make a common place their 'home'. They may have fought, merged, then formed a composite tribe..they cud have taken an animal totem to signify their place of residence or prowess at any time (before or after a merger)...

Speaking of prowess, lets not underestimate 'guerreilla' warfare, signified by ambushes, raids, etc - which is how tribal wars were. Though there were no gorillas in 'guerrilla' warfare, such raids, ambushes, did signify 'war', power and prowess in an ancient time (despite being so very far from the cavalry, etc of later day armies).

Regards.

Dear Happyhindu,

All races have a origin, yes there was a lot of intermixing over time. However if you analyze in detail, & connect all the dots, you will most likely be closer to the truth !.

Now as far as dravidian word is concerned, we are using this for "want of a better one". All genetic study & western/eastern researchers confirm that south people & north people in India are different . (Again I want to clarify, I am NOT dividing people here. I am a student of history & deriving conclusions on the research done by many distinguished people in the past/present !!).

North People are a mix of " Persians + Huns + Kushanas + Greeks + Muslim Invaders + Aborginals + South Dravidians " is also clear - documented historical evidences here !!.

hence the question - where do south people come from???.

My research says - we are a "mixed race of egytian dark race + White Greek/Romans" + yedda - local aborginals in India (existing already)". This explains most of the anomolies. the religious texts, such a domination by priests (not seen anywhere other than the egyptians), Sanskrit (related to Greek languages but spoken as a dravidian/eygtian tonque ) etc.. - Even with this theory, there are inconsistencies which i am working on, however it by far the closest one !!

On the issue of who copied whom - we copied Illiad or Greeks copied Ramayana. from all evidences, it is the Greeks who copied Ramayana. Let me explain. - Clearly the eyptian dark race was the originator of the biggest civilization in the world. It was the originator of the largest religious texts, very powerful priests etc.. (most of these texts were lost in the great fire of Alexandria !!) only egyptians worshipped the "Humans" as "Gods" & we are also doing the same - "Rama" as God. ! Lots of historical evidences for the Rama/Ravana story. BUT NOT A SINGLE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR TROY (DOES NOT EXIST) & ITS CHARACTERS & STORY. NO INSCRIPTIONS OTHER THAN THE HOMER STORY. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR HOMER TO HAVE IMAGINED ALL THIS, MONEY PEOPLE ETC.. SO THEY CLEARLY COPIED US !!. ALL OF THE GREEKS HAVE SAID IT IS A MYTH RIGHT THROUGH HISTORY & RECENTLY RESEARCHERS COULD NOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE IN TURKEY FOR A PLACE CALLED TROY !!

BETWEEN THERE IS ANOTHER BIG LEGEND - ATLANTIS - REMEMBER - IS AGAIN A COPY OF OUR STORY OF DWARAKA" - DISCUSSION FOR ANOTHER DAY !

LET ME ALSO MAKE IT CLEAR TO ALL. WE AS A DARK RACE ARE WAY BETTER THAN WHITES !! LETS BE PROUD OF OUR ANCESTORS BUT FOR GODSAKE NOT COPY THE WRONG THINGS FROM OUR "OBNOXIOUS EGYPTIAN PRIESTS" !!

Cheers !
JK
 
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With due respect, perhaps you missed out that Andaman and Nicobar islands were inhabited by distinct tribes (linguistically distinct and also origin wise theorised to be distinct from one another). So which do you mean were the yedda (Aborginals) as the monkey people of Ramayan?

India was also inhabited by the same "Aborginals as in Adaman/Nicobar" till the mixed race from Egypt landed here in south india. I only said the "aborginals in adaman" are a very telling evidence of the monkey people referred to in Ramayana. you dont find them in India becos they intermixed with the rest of us !!
 
Dark Gods are fair in mind and thoughts.

Fair race is also fair in mind and thought.

So it is only fair that the fair race must worship the fair gods.

Fairness does not mean the skin complexion but the inner worth of the person.

Satan is called the Dark prince.

Has anyone seen his colour and complexion?

It is his deed which has earned him the title 'dark' in front of his name.

A more recent example is from Harry Potter.

The 'Dark Lord' is by no means dark complexioned-

but is dark in all his deeds.
Dear Mrs.VR,

Although there is no proof, am told once upon a time dark skin actually signified high status and position - perhaps quite akin to the dark-skinned Ram triumphing over the fair-skinned Ravan.

Some claim the term 'pishachi' (used to mean 'ghost' or 'demon' in southie languages), actually referred to fair-skinned people around Kashmir, who spoke the paishachi language, but were feared as 'demons'.

Some also say kids in andhra are scared into eating quickly otherwise 'yerra buchodu' will come (ie., white skinned/ red haired demon will come).

It is very sad to think that these days fair skin automatically means beauty. Anyone dark-skinned is considered ugly by the present day urban yuppies (sadly, succumbing or getting brainwashed into such ideology can happen even in those who absolutely desist from such definitions).

I feel the craze for fair skin did not exist in an ancient past. Draupadi was a dark-skinned beauty. Arjuna was dark-skinned and considered a handsome man. Similarly, Ram and Krishna were both dark-skinned and handsome.

I feel associating skin colour with beauty is over-rated, and is more like a social 'fiction'...

Regards.
 
Am not clear JK, so am requesting for some additional info.

India was also inhabited by the same "Aborginals as in Adaman/Nicobar"
Which aboriginals from Andaman / Nicobar please?

till the mixed race from Egypt landed here in south india.
Does this 'mixed race' have a name? They were an admixture of which tribes / groups of people?

I only said the "aborginals in adaman" are a very telling evidence of the monkey people referred to in Ramayana. you dont find them in India becos they intermixed with the rest of us !!
Am not clear which 'aboriginals' you refer to, either from andaman, mainland india, or anywhere else. Please clarify about that. Is there any evidence linking any such 'aboriginals' to Ramayana? Why should the Vanaras of Ramayana refer to any aboriginal at all? Also, how come none of the tribals from Andaman and Nicobar have folk myths pertaining to Rama or Ramayana?
 
Dear JK,

Dear Happyhindu,

All races have a origin, yes there was a lot of intermixing over time. However if you analyze in detail, & connect all the dots, you will most likely be closer to the truth !.

Now as far as dravidian word is concerned, we are using this for "want of a better one". All genetic study & western/eastern researchers confirm that south people & north people in India are different . (Again I want to clarify, I am NOT dividing people here. I am a student of history & deriving conclusions on the research done by many distinguished people in the past/present !!).
Afaik, there is only ANI and ASI, nothing to indicate that people of south and north are different. Please cud you clarify about this.

North People are a mix of " Persians + Huns + Kushanas + Greeks + Muslim Invaders + Aborginals + South Dravidians " is also clear - documented historical evidences here !!.

hence the question - where do south people come from???.

My research says - we are a "mixed race of egytian dark race + White Greek/Romans" + yedda - local aborginals in India (existing already)". This explains most of the anomolies. the religious texts, such a domination by priests (not seen anywhere other than the egyptians), Sanskrit (related to Greek languages but spoken as a dravidian/eygtian tonque ) etc.. - Even with this theory, there are inconsistencies which i am working on, however it by far the closest one !!

On the issue of who copied whom - we copied Illiad or Greeks copied Ramayana. from all evidences, it is the Greeks who copied Ramayana. Let me explain. - Clearly the eyptian dark race was the originator of the biggest civilization in the world. It was the originator of the largest religious texts, very powerful priests etc.. (most of these texts were lost in the great fire of Alexandria !!) only egyptians worshipped the "Humans" as "Gods" & we are also doing the same - "Rama" as God. ! Lots of historical evidences for the Rama/Ravana story. BUT NOT A SINGLE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR TROY (DOES NOT EXIST) & ITS CHARACTERS & STORY. NO INSCRIPTIONS OTHER THAN THE HOMER STORY. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR HOMER TO HAVE IMAGINED ALL THIS, MONEY PEOPLE ETC.. SO THEY CLEARLY COPIED US !!. ALL OF THE GREEKS HAVE SAID IT IS A MYTH RIGHT THROUGH HISTORY & RECENTLY RESEARCHERS COULD NOT FIND ANY EVIDENCE IN TURKEY FOR A PLACE CALLED TROY !!

BETWEEN THERE IS ANOTHER BIG LEGEND - ATLANTIS - REMEMBER - IS AGAIN A COPY OF OUR STORY OF DWARAKA" - DISCUSSION FOR ANOTHER DAY !

LET ME ALSO MAKE IT CLEAR TO ALL. WE AS A DARK RACE ARE WAY BETTER THAN WHITES !! LETS BE PROUD OF OUR ANCESTORS BUT FOR GODSAKE NOT COPY THE WRONG THINGS FROM OUR "OBNOXIOUS EGYPTIAN PRIESTS" !!

Cheers !
JK
I really dunno if the egyptian priests were obnoxious at all. What wrong did they do?

Btw, hindu priests, brahmins, all other classes, are not obnoxious (or anything negative) either. Everyone does things (like conquering resources,) for survival.

One cannot forget the darwinian theory of survival of the fittest, which imo, also applies to the social jungle we live in. Nothing right or wrong about this per se.

If the jungle settings change, it is wise to adapt to the changes, i feel. That's all. Not that anyone is/was obnoxious or anything like that....
 
Am not clear JK, so am requesting for some additional info.


Which aboriginals from Andaman / Nicobar please?


Does this 'mixed race' have a name? They were an admixture of which tribes / groups of people?

Am not clear which 'aboriginals' you refer to, either from andaman, mainland india, or anywhere else. Please clarify about that. Is there any evidence linking any such 'aboriginals' to Ramayana? Why should the Vanaras of Ramayana refer to any aboriginal at all? Also, how come none of the tribals from Andaman and Nicobar have folk myths pertaining to Rama or Ramayana?

Dear Happyhindu,

Suggest you read my posts in Religion - "Dravidian/aryna mix is absolutely correct but it is not what you have been told" - this explains how the "current south dravidians came into existence with all its complexities, brahmin priest dominance etc.."

Let me explain in brief here. South dravidian race (currently in south india) are a mix of - "Majority Egyptian Dark Race + Minority Greek Whites" + "Aborginals already existing in India".

Aborginals are a people who existed from a long time in some of the places on earth. you have them in Australia, the pacific islands & they were "also in India" before other races landed here. they got subsequently intermixed in mainland India, hence you dont find them today here except in Andaman which managed to survive untouched !!

so the "Vanaras in the Ramayana" are the "Aborginals who were existing in India much before the egyptians landed here" !!

Aborginals dont have any tales on Ramayana becos Rama & story is NOT their story. It is a story of our race - "South Dravidians" !! (Also the aborginals in the mainland India merged with all of us & the Aborginals in Andaman continued separately !!. )

Cheers,
JK
 
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my grandmother, always told me, that being saivites, we are closer to ravanan, than to raman. ravanan was a poonal wearing brahmin whereas rama was a meat eating kshatriya. (anyone remember the deer being killed at sitha's request)?

yet there was no image of ravana in her household, only rama - at pattabishekam.

When I was young many a time I used to wonder, how is that almost all Asuras and Rakshasas are portrayed as Siva Bhaktas in our Puranic stories, and why almost all saviours are avataras of Vishnu!

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Dear JK,


Afaik, there is only ANI and ASI, nothing to indicate that people of south and north are different. Please cud you clarify about this.


I really dunno if the egyptian priests were obnoxious at all. What wrong did they do?

Btw, hindu priests, brahmins, all other classes, are not obnoxious (or anything negative) either. Everyone does things (like conquering resources,) for survival.

One cannot forget the darwinian theory of survival of the fittest, which imo, also applies to the social jungle we live in. Nothing right or wrong about this per se.

If the jungle settings change, it is wise to adapt to the changes, i feel. That's all. Not that anyone is/was obnoxious or anything like that....

Dear Happyhindu,

Suggest you read the egyptian history, you will see the atrocities committed by the priests. our Brahmins in the past were as bad by imposing the caste dominance !!.

if you read articles on India History & the race you will know the difference between North & South People in India due to the long migrations & invasions !!

these are facts, no point in debating them.

Cheers !

JK
 
When I was young many a time I used to wonder, how is that almost all Asuras and Rakshasas are portrayed as Siva Bhaktas in our Puranic stories, and why almost all saviours are avataras of Vishnu!

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

LOL!!! thats funny..may be Iyer Vs Iyengar war started those days itself!!

Lord Shiva is known as Ashutosh..easily pleased hence He responds well.
Anyway its not Lord Shiva giving all the boons to the Asuras its Lord Brahma.
So its a Trimurti problem I see.
 
dear jk,


afaik, there is only ani and asi, nothing to indicate that people of south and north are different. Please cud you clarify about this.

unless you now decide that there was "no persian migration, muslim invasion, huns invasion, no aborginals existed in india etc..." there is a big difference between north indians & south indians !!
 
LOL!!! thats funny..may be Iyer Vs Iyengar war started those days itself!!

Lord Shiva is known as Ashutosh..easily pleased hence He responds well.
Anyway its not Lord Shiva giving all the boons to the Asuras its Lord Brahma.
So its a Trimurti problem I see.

No. It is my view that Iyer vs Iyengar dispute started only after the advent of visishtadvaita by Sri Ramanujacharya. Prior to that period interchange of ideas had more catholicity. Even Sri Ramanujacharya (Ilaya Perumal) was born a Smartha-Vadama and undergone studies in Advaitha Purva Paksha under Yadava Prakasar.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
Dear JayKay,

Thankyou for the posts addressed to me. I have yet a lot ot learn and thus am not in a position to converse with you any further. I have no idea why should the Vanaras of Ramayana refer to any aboriginal at all. Afaik, all humans descended from very ancient peoples who cud all be called aboriginals, not just southies. Since our approach to religious history varies, i feel there is not much use in conversing further. I rest my case. Thankyou Sir.

Regards.
 
Dear JayKay,
Thankyou for the posts addressed to me. I have yet a lot ot learn and thus am not in a position to converse with you any further. I have no idea why should the Vanaras of Ramayana refer to any aboriginal at all. Afaik, all humans descended from very ancient peoples who cud all be called aboriginals, not just southies. Since our approach to religious history varies, i feel there is not much use in conversing further. I rest my case. Thankyou Sir.
Regards.

Dear friend !!,

I am student of history & analysing why people are different. u can SAY they are not different - then we can rest our cases & move on !.

I am trying to find out why some people are dark, some brown, some fair, some very fair, who were the monkey people (Vanaras) mentioned in Ramayana, why are the languages different etc.. like the millions of western/eastern researchers. However if you say that "ALL ARE SAME", then we can rest our cases & move on !

you can SAY that all of us came from ancient people, God, one man/woman - Adam/Eve !!. why bother to find our why some are dark some are fair !! :)

you can SAY that all of us came from monkeys anyway or hang on, from an insect (pucchi) becos monkeys came from pucchies, cont.... finally all of us are from a single cell bacteria !!

you can SAY all languages are SAME, no difference between Tamil, Hindi, English. you can type = "ACRABADABRA", i will TYPE BACK - "BACRABDABRA". U understand anything you want, i will understand anything i want. Survo sukhino bavanthu !. No fights, no WAR. ALL ARE "HAPPYHINDUS" !!

you can SAY that there was NO untouchability, we brahmins in the past were very very good, our south dravidian brothers are all lying, egyptian preists were very very nice gentle ladies, they never raised a hand against anyone, let alone bury them alive !! etc.. :)

you can SAY lets abolish "History" completely becos it is creating more divisions among people ! :) No Ramayana, No Mahabarata Nothing !

Our calendar says it is thursday today, but you can say it is sunday & take your day off !

finally, i CAN CREATE "ONE PICTURE" OF - "SUPERHINDUMUSLIMBHAIBHAI" BY MERGING ALL FACES OF the 1 billion huge landmass of indians THRU MY SUPER COMPUTER !. ALL OF US CAN MAKE A FACE MASK OF THIS "SUPERHINDUMUSLIMBHAIBHAI", WEAR IT & SAY ALL OF US ARE SAME !! :)

I AM GOING TO QUIT HISTORY, FORGET EVEYTHING & GO ON A DATE WITH A REAL MONKEY - SOME OF THEM ARE ALREADY TRYING TO GET THROUGH MY WINDOW SILL !!

Sorry couldnt resist having some fun on this !! Pun intended !

Cheers !
 
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When I was young many a time I used to wonder, how is that almost all Asuras and Rakshasas are portrayed as Siva Bhaktas in our Puranic stories, and why almost all saviours are avataras of Vishnu!

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Dear Sir,

Since this thread treads on plenty of speculation, let me add some of mine.

I feel
Bull cult or Moon cult = Shiva, and
Lion cult or Sun cult = Vishnu.

The Bull cult versus the Lion cult is an oft repeated motif in various ancient civilizations.

In India we have Bali (Shiva) (Bull cult), versus Narasimha of Lion cult. Then, Skanda (Bull cult) versus Simhamukha (Lion cult) in the Surasamharam case/phase. We also have Vali / Bali (Bull cult) versus Rama of Sun cult; and again, Ravana (Bull cult) versus Rama (Sun cult).

Bull cults were most prevailing in the world, with civilisations of Egypt, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Kassite, Create, Meditteranean, (and even Carnac complex (France)), etc attributed to the Bull culture (in terms of culture with respect to agriculture, pyramids, megaliths, etc).

The Bull cult gets completely identified with the Moon in the Babylonian period. Kings wore crows with horns of a Bull (signifying their strength "as strong as a bull"). The king's tiaras also signifed cresent of the moon. There is a nice book on all of this called "The Power of the Bull" by Michael Rice.

The bull was sacred to these people. Jews worshipped the golden calf. Moses came and changed this worship pattern (after he received the 10 commandments on the Mount of Sinai). Baal worship then came to signify evil idolatory.

In the worship practices of early egyptians, they carry palanquins, etc, just like hindu temple culture. But the later jews completely prohibited idol worship (thanks to Moses). Interestingly, Jacob named his son Judah as a Gur Aryeh, that is, a "Young Lion".

The sun cult is signified by the rise of Mithras (sun worship). Their kings were incarnates of the Sun, signified by light, dispelling the 'ignorance', 'arrogance', 'evil' and 'darkness' of the Moon cult.

Some notable deities of the Sun cult are the Egyptian gods Horus, Ra, Nefertum, etc. The pharos were incarnates of the Sun. Arabs before islam worshipped Yaguth, a lion god. There is a temple of lion-god at baalbek in lebanon.

If i remember right, i had mentioned turkic culture of lion-gods as well as bull cult in a thread on narasimha swamy (as well as the Susa seal, etc).

It may seem that in Persia something happened, and the Bull cult and the Lion cult become a common (merged) cult. But this merger scenario went on and off in other places, either preceding the Persia situation or after it. In India, Skanda (Bull) actually won against Simhamukha (Lion cult).

The divine bull came to signify evil. The bull cults worshipped mother goddess. The defeat of the bull cult may have either led to a downfall of female deities in some regions, or a merger in some other regions (hurrians of the lion cult worshipped mother goddess).

Idolatory came to be banned in new emerging religions of the middle-east (people of the book). I remember seeing in some documentary on History Channel that Trishul was characterized as evil by the Mithra cult (Mithraism).

So why do we have this frequent motif of Light winning over darkness, Sun winning over Moon cult, Lion winning over Bull, etc; in various civilizations all over the world (including China where cult fights were common in the past)?

The reason seems allegorical. It is in the stars. Some say it signifies a change in culture with change of age (like change in manvantaras).

The constellation of Perseus (Mithra / Sun / Lion) went across the sky and battled the constellation of Taurus (Bull). That is to say, it was the end of the Taurus age and so the worship practices of the Bull culture were phased out.

Please see the constellation phase of Taurus (Bull) to Leo (Sun/Lion) here - The Official Robert Bauval Website - The Lion (Leo) was known in the New Kingdom - (2)

So the motif of gods ‘killing’ anyone may possibly not have happened at all. Instead ancient astronomy got preserved in the form of stories. IMO, Shiva versus Vishnu is merely Moon (Taurus Bull) versus Sun (Leo Lion).

Currently we are in the age of Aquarius, so technology takes a leap. But this age will also change and thus, culture / religious practices are bound to change.

This link has details with pictures: Age of Taurus & First Civilizations

This video however explains pretty well [MUST WATCH] - Religion Comes From Ancient Astrology and Sun Worship 3 of 3 - YouTube

This may mean several things (1) cultural changes / persecutions in other parts of the world may have caused people to migrate and practice their culture safely in India (2) as the 'age' changes, we may worship differently in future.

Regards.
 
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