Did you all forget the mandal protests - it was mostly led by the North States ? so, how come only reservation in TN is an issue & not so in other states ?? In 70s/80s, govt jobs mattered since private sector was dead courtesy socialist policies of the then central govts. Today no one wants to join the govt given the opportunities in private sector !!
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... and here is a contrarian view of tambrams of tamil nadu
- Thread starter kunjuppu
- Start date
- Status
jk sir
I understand your concern
there is a price to be paid in terms of compromising on our traditions and culture.
to stay rooted to these after getting uprooted is difficult for many.
children of our folks who have gone abroad for work , are born and brought up in a different culture
and they find it hard to accept or maintain our traditions.
even tamil brahmins who have settled in india in northern and western parts of our country have to come
to terms with living there and unable to retain much of their south indian culture and traditions.
in fact most may not return to tamilnadu in their lifetimes as their children brought up there have
headed abroad or found better pastures in other cities of india. they might retain their indian ness
but not even be capable to read their own language or sometimes speak fluently also.
this is the price paid. no sense lamenting over it
I understand your concern
there is a price to be paid in terms of compromising on our traditions and culture.
to stay rooted to these after getting uprooted is difficult for many.
children of our folks who have gone abroad for work , are born and brought up in a different culture
and they find it hard to accept or maintain our traditions.
even tamil brahmins who have settled in india in northern and western parts of our country have to come
to terms with living there and unable to retain much of their south indian culture and traditions.
in fact most may not return to tamilnadu in their lifetimes as their children brought up there have
headed abroad or found better pastures in other cities of india. they might retain their indian ness
but not even be capable to read their own language or sometimes speak fluently also.
this is the price paid. no sense lamenting over it
V
V.Balasubramani
Guest
Let those TBs who live inside India, but outside of South India realize that why Tamils do visit their native place periodically when they have left the same long back for better prospects.
It is simple, that they don’t forget the root, repeat the root.
It is here culture and traditions are nurtured and cherished even today. There are people who are very serious in maintaining the old traditions and who have the passion to such arts, culture, traditions, literature, etc. Earning money for better living is not everyone's cup of tea.
Look at Carnatic Music Festival, Margazhi Vizha, Chennaiyil Thiruvaiyaru, etc held annually.
The Annual Book fair is another attraction.
Chennai has its own charm. People who have taste and passion will certainly love and appreciate.
One of my friend's son who has got top ranking at IIT-M and also at IIM at Ahmedabad though got lot of opportunity abroad, has chosen South India settled at Bangalore now with an MNC. He is happy now and about all it is individual's choice.
it is not reservation alone but the extent of it.tamil nadu is one extreme with brahmins bearing the
brunt. in addition discrimination and caste hatred leading to often ridicule and sometimes threat of
violence based on caste is the issue. even in north ,the caste violence by intermediate castes
against dalits makes all decent people ashamed.so as far as caste discrimination is concerned ,it is
the same almost everywhere , a little more in some places.in mega cities it is less to some
extent. in north it is not directed against brahmins like tamilnadu
Krish –
Agree with you. That was in the past, but today thingshave changed dramatically. There is no need for TBs & South Indians ingeneral to go abroad or to North/west & settle down. So one does not haveto compromise & lose our traditions like people had to in the past.
Another key issue is if parents continue to keep TNbashing, how will the kids learn our traditions?, they will think all is bad& give up completely, which is the case for those settled abroad. !! PIOshave made a tradition of bashing not only TN but India in general, pushingtheir kids in the process to embrace all that is west. !
Cheers,
Agree with you. That was in the past, but today thingshave changed dramatically. There is no need for TBs & South Indians ingeneral to go abroad or to North/west & settle down. So one does not haveto compromise & lose our traditions like people had to in the past.
Another key issue is if parents continue to keep TNbashing, how will the kids learn our traditions?, they will think all is bad& give up completely, which is the case for those settled abroad. !! PIOshave made a tradition of bashing not only TN but India in general, pushingtheir kids in the process to embrace all that is west. !
Cheers,
Krish –
Sorry have to disagree on this. Please show me instances where a TB has been subjected to physical violence in TN ever? I will show you million instances of violence in North & against the upper castes including Brahmins.
Yes, there have been many virulent speeches against Brahmins in TN in the past, & people made fun of TBs at times. But no physical violence ever to my knowledge.
North Indians who are settled here in South themselves say, the reason North has not progressed as much as South is due to lawlessness. PS: I have never stayed in North, so my views are a reflection of what I have heard from others/read on the news.
Sorry have to disagree on this. Please show me instances where a TB has been subjected to physical violence in TN ever? I will show you million instances of violence in North & against the upper castes including Brahmins.
Yes, there have been many virulent speeches against Brahmins in TN in the past, & people made fun of TBs at times. But no physical violence ever to my knowledge.
North Indians who are settled here in South themselves say, the reason North has not progressed as much as South is due to lawlessness. PS: I have never stayed in North, so my views are a reflection of what I have heard from others/read on the news.
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To me, those who migrated out of TN are still thinking of the times when they left. Pl understand, things have changed dramatically in the last 20 yrs !! As I said earlier, don't be surprised if Americans come in droves to TN for amma canteens, given that they are all used to subsidies from their govt. LOL !!
All states have reservation. It is difficult to get a seat in prime institutions with open quota, slightly better if one is willing to study in a remote govt. College. Private colleges are same as elsewhere.
And outsiders cannot get admission as they need domicile certificate.
And outsiders cannot get admission as they need domicile certificate.
jaykayji
my experience is limited to metrocities and I am not aware of ground situation in interior .
in delhi ,I have not come across verbal/physical abuse of brahmins.
I have seen verbal abuse of brahmins in chennai
the film media, depicts ridicule of brahmis/girls of upper class.
since brahmins do not resist or protest abuse , they do not get physically hurt
I suppose the violence is reserved for dalits mostly in interiors.
that is the case in north india also for dalits
so it is more comfortable in delhi for tamil brahmins
there is no discrimination in central govt jobs as the implementation of that is only recent in last
fifteen years. even in education , delhi univ only in last couple of years is talking of BC reservation.
it is cental university admission open to all in india.
my experience is limited to metrocities and I am not aware of ground situation in interior .
in delhi ,I have not come across verbal/physical abuse of brahmins.
I have seen verbal abuse of brahmins in chennai
the film media, depicts ridicule of brahmis/girls of upper class.
since brahmins do not resist or protest abuse , they do not get physically hurt
I suppose the violence is reserved for dalits mostly in interiors.
that is the case in north india also for dalits
so it is more comfortable in delhi for tamil brahmins
there is no discrimination in central govt jobs as the implementation of that is only recent in last
fifteen years. even in education , delhi univ only in last couple of years is talking of BC reservation.
it is cental university admission open to all in india.
I like chennai for its cultural traditions in music and dance.
I visit almost every year in dec-early jan for music festival.
it is one area nurtured by brahmins.
book fair I visit to pick up some novels
I also like to stay in 3 star hotel such as woodlands which are second homes for me.
otherwise I do not have much links with that place except some relations due to marriage
my links are superficial which I maintain as my forefathers belonged to tamilnadu.
nothing more than that.
I visit almost every year in dec-early jan for music festival.
it is one area nurtured by brahmins.
book fair I visit to pick up some novels
I also like to stay in 3 star hotel such as woodlands which are second homes for me.
otherwise I do not have much links with that place except some relations due to marriage
my links are superficial which I maintain as my forefathers belonged to tamilnadu.
nothing more than that.
Brahmanyan
Active member
I fully agree with your views in this regard. I belong to the generation which faced discrimination in the name of Communal GO, introduced by Congress regime. We had difficulty in getting seats in the only College available at that time in Coimbatore. Otherwise there was no hatred shown to us by anybody. In Coimbatore, my place of birth, I have never come across anyone calling me "paarpaan" during my stay there. There was complete amity among the Castes. There are sizable population of Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam and Gujarati speaking people in the City.
We must accept the fact that in spite of all reservations, people of our community have shown remarkable adaptation and progressed well in every sphere all around the globe, where they have migrated. Our people have maintained our Religious and Cultural values to the best of their ability.
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
There is a glut in engineering seats; medical is a special case because I believe colleges have to be affiliated to hospitals, which makes the whole process expensive for private operators. Link between college and hospital can be broken and students can do an internship after completing the course. Anyway 80% of the doctors do routine general physician's job but now ably supported by clinical instrument based diagnostics and medical rep suggested medicines. Law is another area in tamilnadu as there is a strong resistance to opening new colleges from lawyers and students who manged to get admission. There are a few private law colleges in maharashtra that ease the problem of admission to diverse communities.
A typical case: in pune university, a few years back, the post graduate admission to one art discipline was 12 seats and of these only two were in the open category after reservation allocation. A private institute affiliated to the university admitted 60 students to cater too forward communities and out of state aspirants.
A typical case: in pune university, a few years back, the post graduate admission to one art discipline was 12 seats and of these only two were in the open category after reservation allocation. A private institute affiliated to the university admitted 60 students to cater too forward communities and out of state aspirants.
I fully agree with your view and experience. I have not faced any discrimination is school or college or working life; one exception is admission to professional courses which is a special case. My brothers took a sensible alternative and went int auditing and law. I have never based any threat or abuse worth mentioning or remembering.
There was no discrimination or jibes to both practicing (sandhya etc.) and name sake brahmins by others in classes and hostels.
There was no discrimination or jibes to both practicing (sandhya etc.) and name sake brahmins by others in classes and hostels.
Yes, all states have reservation; but not like in Tamil Nadu where 98% of the populace enjoy the fruits of reservation! Also with 4-5 generations of reservations the rest of the population have reached the level of Brahmins and corner 95% of the opportunities in the Open competition! What is left for the Brahmins...Only a pittance...Is this justice by any means??
I studied in a Brahmin school (PSBB)...When I joined Annamalai University for Engineering in early 80's all the Tam Brahmins faced excessive ragging..There were verbal abuses of Brahmins...On the one hand we were just a handful..Despite that we we were ragged because we were Brahmins..I was injured too....Within 6 months I got a better college & I left that place..That left a deep scar on my psyche
V
V.Balasubramani
Guest
Sir,
When it comes to Education, no doubt, Tamil Nadu has got best Institutions and mostly seats are allotted based on reservation and merits, besides Management Quota, etc.
It is not out of place, if I mention that a friend of mine, a TB, wanted his son to be admitted in an University run by a TB group but they demanded capitation fee of Rs.75,000/=for a P.G.Course way back in 2004, despite securing a good percentage of mark in the entrance Exam. Since it was felt to be on the higher side, unable to meet the demand, this poor TB got his son admitted in an University run by a Non TB group just by paying fees of Rs.15,000/=. That was the consideration shown by the University (TB Group) to a poor TB’s son.
dear jaykay,
i do understand and appreciate your anguish. i felt the need to answer you (& those whose views are similar) but at the same time, did not know whether i could ever relate to my own personal circumstances and state of mind, to the parameters that appear so high in your list ie community, hometown, culture etc.
for someone, whose family has moved to a different place every generation, we really do not have a strong tie to a piece of earth, to call us back and settle down. the place where i live, i should be at peace. and since i bring forth children to this world, the place should cater to their mental and intellectual growth without warping them from traditions, which i myself do not believe in, and what i consider an albatross.
i would like to point out, that the new societies of the world, much as they have bloody antecedents, are a melting pot of humanities. the key to an open mind, is, as i have said, is to accept that your children can marry whom they want. i can tell my children the same in india, but an india still deeply imbedded in the caste system, will give them a rough life. especially the males, and it will take a few generations before the curse of caste vanishes from india. that is my sincere prayer.
caste, i find, is like a shirt, that is unique to india. it vanishes out of each indian, the minute he leaves the shores, and lands, particularly in the west. it is an exhilarating feeling, to be devoid of this sack cloth, i think. add to it, the shackle like traditions, which prevent individuality and independence, all in the name of community and propriety, is something, for folks like me, too much to handle.
most people who emigrate to the americas or australias, do not live all that different from india, per se. except they live on their own terms. most tambrams do poonal for their sons, out of consideration for their folks in india. so they come to india, do the poonal, and it disappears the kid gets on the plane. ask him for his abhivadhey and you will know what i mean.
i think these are but inevitable changes, brought by technology and globalization. that a scavenger's son could dream today of being an engineer, and a maid's daughter could be a doctor, is the wonderful change that is taking place in india. which gives me great gratification. but all this means, entrenched establishment types like our community, needs to change in attitudes. change fast, or as it happpend in tamil nadu since 1967, they will be changed for you. by the erstwhile disenfranchised or by the sheer rule of numbers.
whichever it is, the smart thing, is for us, to seek opportunities in places where our fathers did not venture to tread. it does not mean, others have not been there before. people movement has been the norm ever since the dawn of mankind. we tambrams did not grow in tamil nadu. we came here maybe a couple of thousand years ago. but from somewhere. to pack up the bags, and leave for what we presume to be better climate, is not a sin. it is just another facet of human behaviour.
a movement of some folks, is not a disaster for the community left behind. it will deal with changes in its own way. and for those who move, there is no loss either. they will find what they want, at the place they move. or they will keep on moving. such is life.
re your point about not being accepted in a western society is just a point. can we truly say that we are accepted as equals, by the rest of tamil community? i am not talking about some seat in a college or government job. i mean, the concept of being considered a part of the society and treated by the nadars gounders mudaliars naidus chettiars as one among them tamil?
or when they call us saami or iyeray, there is a invisible curtain, that separates us and them. B and NB? if this be so, i think it is so, i feel, that the generation of the 20th tambrams leaders like rajaji or va ve su iyer etc did great disservice to this generation..for are we not paying the price for their arrogance or sheer inability to grasp the consequences of separation? i feel one doesn't need respect as much as one needs acceptance, and by deliberation or ignorance, the tambrams have moved away from the core of tamildom. this again, maybe a figment of my sensitivity or imagination. that much i will concede.
the western society, atleast where i live, is far more accommodating of a new comer; than the indian society of a dalit with whom it has shared the landspace for thousands of years. the latter part bothers me. i do not want my children to be a part of this discrimination. this heritage. no amount of compensation, quotas or even apologies can wipe away the dirt instilled by manu's system, of which we are at the top of the totem pole. this is what i think.
thank you.
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If someone wants to give up his caste tag, he is free to do so. No one will, even the one who has benefited from the reservation system, is educated, well employed and achieved a status an actor, judge, politician, business magnet, will give up his birth tag. If someone calls me iyere as a mark of respect, I return the respect in an appropriate way, in thought, word and deed. Except some black shirts, majority do not care either way, and live and deal with brahmins without inhibitions. More people have become visibly religious, participate in rituals and take the services of brahmin purohits (as a man said in a recent neeya naana programme on wedding memories)
We are not western society; our thinking, practices and responses are different. Our jati kula system will survive, adjusting to changed conditions of modern life. In the discussions and debates while framing the constitution, many said that they have borrowed heavily from our dharma sastras. Manu smruti is not responsible for social ills.
Those who carry guilt feeling are welcome to carry it to the grave (or pyre as the case may be). But tambrams are doing fine and can do without abuses from 'i am a brahmin hating brahmin'.
We are not western society; our thinking, practices and responses are different. Our jati kula system will survive, adjusting to changed conditions of modern life. In the discussions and debates while framing the constitution, many said that they have borrowed heavily from our dharma sastras. Manu smruti is not responsible for social ills.
Those who carry guilt feeling are welcome to carry it to the grave (or pyre as the case may be). But tambrams are doing fine and can do without abuses from 'i am a brahmin hating brahmin'.
Hi Kunjuppu – Pl take my post in the right spirit.
1. Parents actions/decisions always have an impact on their children. Even if the children do not come back & blame the parents, the impact is lifelong & many times irreversible.
2. Almost all the kids from IC/IR & now North/South marriages have regretted that their parents went & married outside their communities. Pl read the postings, rantings from these Kids on the Internet.
3. Some of the kids are so open on the internet,they not only blame their parents, they curse their fate for being a B + NB Kids. They blame that they neither belong to any community, they do not follow any of the customs & they are left out of all social events.
4. Most kids born in the West are similarly cursing their fate on why their parents came & settled outside of India. Have you asked your Kids what do they think being in USA ? obviously they will not blame the parents, but they all have deep identity crisis.
5. Now coming to those settled abroad, please tell me what do any of you gain by bashing TN, India, Caste system etc.. ?. Caste based discrimination is long gone as far as Brahmins are concerned, it may exist within the OBC/Dalits at best – even this is going.
6. By bashing our country, TN, most of the kids settled outside of South & abroad have lost all the 1000s of centuries of traditions. Now these kids have no clue of our traditions to even appreciate about it.
7. No one is asking the kids to chant the mantras in the morn, but should they not listen to our great masters in philosophy, exposed to Sanskrit languages, some level of scriptures, carnatic music etc.
8. When I get up in the morn, it is so great to switch on one of the many channels in Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu or Kannada & listen to the divine chants, devotional songs, etc..
9. When I travel & sit in some place abroad, itis so good to go to youtube & listen to Chambai & Jesudas singing together?. my god, what an astonishing Guru/Shishya combination ? Do the Indian kids in west even know anything about India to appreciate all this ?
10. If you talk about virginity/chastitiy to your kids, they will laugh given the influence of west. But if you tell them that if they value virginity/chastity before marriage they almost always get a fantastic partner for life ? & those who indulge in “leela, gana lola” before marriage will end up with disastrous partners ? that’s how good is always rewarded & bad is punished.
11. Of course, many will conveniently forget, that some White Christian kids in the USA have a virginity pact not to indulge in sex before marriage. They will not laugh about it, only if Indians talk about this, our PIOS will go “gaga”… LOL !
12. And what is this lifelong fixation about caste system problems & it is bad blah blah blah… I mean frankly, don’t the Indians in India know that caste based discrimination is bad & long addressed it ? why is it such an issue for the PIOs when even the Indians have moved on ? And because of this, you all want to deny the kids the chance to know about Sasnkrit,carnatic music, listening to MS Subbalaksmi’s extra-ordinary rendition of Vatapi Ganapathim Baje etc.. ? Astonishing to say the least !!
13. Don’t the whites go to Japan & bow to the great Buddhist masters there & learn from them ?. So why should we not bow down to our Kanchi or Sringeri Shankaracharya or the many Gurus here ?
14. I fail to understand, why only Indians across all communities in West are so keen to shed the Indianess? Please tell me, what is the hatred for ?. I am really curious to understand? LOL !!
15. Let the Indian kids in the west be exposed to Indian culture & let them decide if they want to learn or not? Parents here seem to be over keen that their kids learn all that is west. In some families,the kids don’t even know our languages, they only speak in English. Astonishing.
16. Did you know that over 80% of people regret their career choices & openly say, they wish their parents / teachers had helped more with the various pros & cons of each career given their vast experience. similarly ask them about their life choices of being in west !!
Finally, It is a great dis-service that the parents are doing by indulging in India/TN bashing & keeping their kids from such an extra-ordinarly culture as ours. Let the kids be exposed to the culture & let them decide which way they want to go in their lives.
1. Parents actions/decisions always have an impact on their children. Even if the children do not come back & blame the parents, the impact is lifelong & many times irreversible.
2. Almost all the kids from IC/IR & now North/South marriages have regretted that their parents went & married outside their communities. Pl read the postings, rantings from these Kids on the Internet.
3. Some of the kids are so open on the internet,they not only blame their parents, they curse their fate for being a B + NB Kids. They blame that they neither belong to any community, they do not follow any of the customs & they are left out of all social events.
4. Most kids born in the West are similarly cursing their fate on why their parents came & settled outside of India. Have you asked your Kids what do they think being in USA ? obviously they will not blame the parents, but they all have deep identity crisis.
5. Now coming to those settled abroad, please tell me what do any of you gain by bashing TN, India, Caste system etc.. ?. Caste based discrimination is long gone as far as Brahmins are concerned, it may exist within the OBC/Dalits at best – even this is going.
6. By bashing our country, TN, most of the kids settled outside of South & abroad have lost all the 1000s of centuries of traditions. Now these kids have no clue of our traditions to even appreciate about it.
7. No one is asking the kids to chant the mantras in the morn, but should they not listen to our great masters in philosophy, exposed to Sanskrit languages, some level of scriptures, carnatic music etc.
8. When I get up in the morn, it is so great to switch on one of the many channels in Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu or Kannada & listen to the divine chants, devotional songs, etc..
9. When I travel & sit in some place abroad, itis so good to go to youtube & listen to Chambai & Jesudas singing together?. my god, what an astonishing Guru/Shishya combination ? Do the Indian kids in west even know anything about India to appreciate all this ?
10. If you talk about virginity/chastitiy to your kids, they will laugh given the influence of west. But if you tell them that if they value virginity/chastity before marriage they almost always get a fantastic partner for life ? & those who indulge in “leela, gana lola” before marriage will end up with disastrous partners ? that’s how good is always rewarded & bad is punished.
11. Of course, many will conveniently forget, that some White Christian kids in the USA have a virginity pact not to indulge in sex before marriage. They will not laugh about it, only if Indians talk about this, our PIOS will go “gaga”… LOL !
12. And what is this lifelong fixation about caste system problems & it is bad blah blah blah… I mean frankly, don’t the Indians in India know that caste based discrimination is bad & long addressed it ? why is it such an issue for the PIOs when even the Indians have moved on ? And because of this, you all want to deny the kids the chance to know about Sasnkrit,carnatic music, listening to MS Subbalaksmi’s extra-ordinary rendition of Vatapi Ganapathim Baje etc.. ? Astonishing to say the least !!
13. Don’t the whites go to Japan & bow to the great Buddhist masters there & learn from them ?. So why should we not bow down to our Kanchi or Sringeri Shankaracharya or the many Gurus here ?
14. I fail to understand, why only Indians across all communities in West are so keen to shed the Indianess? Please tell me, what is the hatred for ?. I am really curious to understand? LOL !!
15. Let the Indian kids in the west be exposed to Indian culture & let them decide if they want to learn or not? Parents here seem to be over keen that their kids learn all that is west. In some families,the kids don’t even know our languages, they only speak in English. Astonishing.
16. Did you know that over 80% of people regret their career choices & openly say, they wish their parents / teachers had helped more with the various pros & cons of each career given their vast experience. similarly ask them about their life choices of being in west !!
Finally, It is a great dis-service that the parents are doing by indulging in India/TN bashing & keeping their kids from such an extra-ordinarly culture as ours. Let the kids be exposed to the culture & let them decide which way they want to go in their lives.
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Please visit the various Indian/American forums to know what your own kids are talking about Identity crisis, lost cultures, traditions etc... By the way, you will NOT see a single Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Malaysian etc... ever giving up their cultures even if they are 2nd, 3rd generation in USA !!
life is about living and choices
placed in various circumstances, most decide on a course of action.
some are staus quo ists and remain static putting up all negative things happening them
others are changers making conscious efforts for better living thru mobility and taking risks
any change gives some positives along with negatives.
if ultimate result is more plus than minus , it is a good decision.or else one suffers
this is the basic philosophy of living
for me change is part and parcel of my lifestyle
I see no reason to be any different
placed in various circumstances, most decide on a course of action.
some are staus quo ists and remain static putting up all negative things happening them
others are changers making conscious efforts for better living thru mobility and taking risks
any change gives some positives along with negatives.
if ultimate result is more plus than minus , it is a good decision.or else one suffers
this is the basic philosophy of living
for me change is part and parcel of my lifestyle
I see no reason to be any different
tbs
0
hi
even though u address these quotes to shri Kunjuppu ji.....but i like share some more....its not REALLY BASHING AGAINST
BRAHMINISM/TN /INDIA CULTURE....its individual experiences in the society/country....eveny individual has different views
abt language/food/culture etc.....i can tell my view/experiences abt BRAHMINISM/TN /INDIA ETC.....im in USA now
for last 2 decades....i born in tambram family in india....studied IN VEDA PATASHALA.....SERVED INDIAN ARMY MORE THAN
MORE THAN 17 YEARS....TRAVELED ALMOST ALL STATES OF INDIA....SPEAKING MORE THAN 10 INDIAN LANGUAGES....
MORE THAN 4 MASTERS AND PH.D FROM INDIA.... still i feel very sad experiences of CASTISM/DESCRINATION IN INDIA....
i never had such in USA....CASTE IS NOT MY CHOICE...I BORN IN TAMBRAM FAMILY....I DID PH.D IN SANSKRIT....
BUT I NEVER GET RECOGNITION IN INDIA....BUT I GOT IT IN USA.....EVERY INDIVIDUAL'S KARMA/DESTINY TAKES A LIFE JOURNEY...
this is my humble view...i may be wrong...you may call me as PIO.....its okay.....
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