... and here is a contrarian view of tambrams of tamil nadu

[V.Balasubramani]

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Hi Kunjuppu – Pl take my post in the right spirit.

1. Parents actions/decisions always have an impact on their children. Even if the children do not come back & blame the parents, the impact is lifelong & many times irreversible.

2. Almost all the kids from IC/IR & now North/South marriages have regretted that their parents went & married outside their communities. Pl read the postings, rantings from these Kids on the Internet.

3. Some of the kids are so open on the internet,they not only blame their parents, they curse their fate for being a B + NB Kids. They blame that they neither belong to any community, they do not follow any of the customs & they are left out of all social events.

4. Most kids born in the West are similarly cursing their fate on why their parents came & settled outside of India. Have you asked your Kids what do they think being in USA ? obviously they will not blame the parents, but they all have deep identity crisis.

5. Now coming to those settled abroad, please tell me what do any of you gain by bashing TN, India, Caste system etc.. ?. Caste based discrimination is long gone as far as Brahmins are concerned, it may exist within the OBC/Dalits at best – even this is going.

6. By bashing our country, TN, most of the kids settled outside of South & abroad have lost all the 1000s of centuries of traditions. Now these kids have no clue of our traditions to even appreciate about it.

7. No one is asking the kids to chant the mantras in the morn, but should they not listen to our great masters in philosophy, exposed to Sanskrit languages, some level of scriptures, carnatic music etc.

8. When I get up in the morn, it is so great to switch on one of the many channels in Tamil, Malayalam, Telugu or Kannada & listen to the divine chants, devotional songs, etc..

9. When I travel & sit in some place abroad, itis so good to go to youtube & listen to Chambai & Jesudas singing together?. my god, what an astonishing Guru/Shishya combination ? Do the Indian kids in west even know anything about India to appreciate all this ?

10. If you talk about virginity/chastitiy to your kids, they will laugh given the influence of west. But if you tell them that if they value virginity/chastity before marriage they almost always get a fantastic partner for life ? & those who indulge in “leela, gana lola” before marriage will end up with disastrous partners ? that’s how good is always rewarded & bad is punished.

11. Of course, many will conveniently forget, that some White Christian kids in the USA have a virginity pact not to indulge in sex before marriage. They will not laugh about it, only if Indians talk about this, our PIOS will go “gaga”… LOL !

12. And what is this lifelong fixation about caste system problems & it is bad blah blah blah… I mean frankly, don’t the Indians in India know that caste based discrimination is bad & long addressed it ? why is it such an issue for the PIOs when even the Indians have moved on ? And because of this, you all want to deny the kids the chance to know about Sasnkrit,carnatic music, listening to MS Subbalaksmi’s extra-ordinary rendition of Vatapi Ganapathim Baje etc.. ? Astonishing to say the least !!

13. Don’t the whites go to Japan & bow to the great Buddhist masters there & learn from them ?. So why should we not bow down to our Kanchi or Sringeri Shankaracharya or the many Gurus here ?

14. I fail to understand, why only Indians across all communities in West are so keen to shed the Indianess? Please tell me, what is the hatred for ?. I am really curious to understand? LOL !!

15. Let the Indian kids in the west be exposed to Indian culture & let them decide if they want to learn or not? Parents here seem to be over keen that their kids learn all that is west. In some families,the kids don’t even know our languages, they only speak in English. Astonishing.

16. Did you know that over 80% of people regret their career choices & openly say, they wish their parents / teachers had helped more with the various pros & cons of each career given their vast experience. similarly ask them about their life choices of being in west !!

Finally, It is a great dis-service that the parents are doing by indulging in India/TN bashing & keeping their kids from such an extra-ordinarly culture as ours. Let the kids be exposed to the culture & let them decide which way they want to go in their lives.

JayKay Ji,

A very thoughtful post indeed.

Keep it up Sir

 

[sarang]

BUT I NEVER GET RECOGNITION IN INDIA....BUT I GOT IT IN USA.....EVERY INDIVIDUAL'S KARMA/DESTINY TAKES A LIFE JOURNEY...

Individual experiences and opinions are fine. But bashing a community one is born into, thrashing its culture with 'nakkule narambu illame', blaming a dharma in toto - if these are taught by the liberal mindset of western civilization, nothing more can be said.

Recognition is a big word and has several meanings. Of course every one has to list and match his expectation and realization with due weightage to kalam and desam.

 

[tbs]

Individual experiences and opinions are fine. But bashing a community one is born into, thrashing its culture with 'nakkule narambu illame', blaming a dharma in toto - if these are taught by the liberal mindset of western civilization, nothing more can be said.

Recognition is a big word and has several meanings. Of course every one has to list and match his expectation and realization with due weightage to kalam and desam.

hi

is it based on jati/caste?......caste/jati is not in the individual hand.....it not a CHOICE...ITS CHANCE TO BORN INTO....

 

[Jaykay767]

TBS – I am not clear what you are upset about ?

Are you upset that you were born as Tambram when the entire world wants to marry into Tambrams ?

Are you upset due to the Anti Brahmin movement, reservation issue?

Are you upset that our ancestors were involved in caste based discrimination & your abhor it ?. so Germans also should abhor their culture coz of the Nazi atrocities on Jews & give up their mother tongue, culture etc…?

Just because some decided to go abroad does not mean we have to hate our homeland TN/India ? Many Chinese were “kicked out” during Mao’s regime, all of them came back to China & invested after his time !!. even 2[SUP]nd[/SUP],3[SUP]rd[/SUP] generation Chinese go to China every year as a pilgrimage & they all have 1 foot in China.

Why will anyone give up, rather hate their mother tongue, culture, traditions etc.. because of political issues or so called historic injustice done by our distant ancestors on others ?

And if you feel so strongly, isn’t it Ironic you are in this forum, shouldn’t one be in an anti-brahmin, anti-india forum ?

Sorry I am not trying to put you in a dock, only trying to understand why one will hate his or her own motherland ?

 

[tbs]

TBS – I am not clear what you are upset about ?

Are you upset that you were born as Tambram when the entire world wants to marry into Tambrams ?

Are you upset due to the Anti Brahmin movement, reservation issue?

Are you upset that our ancestors were involved in caste based discrimination & your abhor it ?. so Germans also should abhor their culture coz of the Nazi atrocities on Jews & give up their mother tongue, culture etc…?

Just because some decided to go abroad does not mean we have to hate our homeland TN/India ? Many Chinese were “kicked out” during Mao’s regime, all of them came back to China & invested after his time !!. even 2[SUP]nd[/SUP],3[SUP]rd[/SUP] generation Chinese go to China every year as a pilgrimage & they all have 1 foot in China.

Why will anyone give up, rather hate their mother tongue, culture, traditions etc.. because of political issues or so called historic injustice done by our distant ancestors on others ?

And if you feel so strongly, isn’t it Ironic you are in this forum, shouldn’t one be in an anti-brahmin, anti-india forum ?

Sorry I am not trying to put you in a dock, only trying to understand why one will hate his or her own motherland ?

hi sir,

i upset many things as u mentioned....i can tell one thing....my daughter doing MD in medicine in USA.....i never paid a single

penny for college fees/ anyother things.....just MERIT ONLY....NO OTHER CRITIERIA.... even though im eligible for reservation

quota in INDIA.... i never get a seat without money for medicine....UNIMAGINABLE IN INDIA....MONEY AND CASTE IS

IS CRITERIA FOR EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING IN INDIA.... now u understand my upset...its self explanatory...

IF ONLY MERIT IS CRITERIA FOR EVERY THING AND ANYTHING IN INDIA...ATTITUDE/SINCERITY/INTEGRITY ARE

THE PILLARS OF ANY GOOD SOCIETY.....THEN MAY CONSIDER TO COME BACK OF MANY PIOs....பிச்சைக்காரனுக்கு

வேதாந்தம் சோறு போடாது....i repeat K sir's word... சோறு இருக்குமிடம் சொற்கலோகம்....

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I read your post fully. It is interesting as comes from the distant shore. The dhrishtikone is naturally different. I thought I would respond to just a few points in order to reduce the reading fatigue. Like a child going to a beach is in all wonderment, wide eyed and thoroughly impressed, you said this:

caste, i find, is like a shirt, that is unique to india. it vanishes out of each indian, the minute he leaves the shores, and lands, particularly in the west. it is an exhilarating feeling, to be devoid of this sack cloth, i think. add to it, the shackle like traditions, which prevent individuality and independence, all in the name of community and propriety, is something, for folks like me, too much to handle.

Every one visiting US or Canada will be impressed with the casteless society. So they abandon their caste and along with it perhaps the culture and traditions too in the newfound heaven. Every society has classes and divisions in the society. This is natural. If it is not caste it is something else. I travelled in the London tube and was specifically called by an abusive term by a whiteman when I was getting down at my stop because he believed in a nonexisting right to get down first from the train. That was when I was exposed to the abuse on the basis of a perceived identity. I don’t believe that US or Canada does not have such undercurrents. An Indian suffers from a woefully inadequate self esteem wherever he is. It is a genetic disorder. So when he is impressed with the outward shine of alien cultures he turns to self pity. Like the child with wide eyes you got in everything. But as an adult you could have analysed it without preconceived notions. Culture and values are acquired over centuries not in a jiffy because someone is nice to me. You know why you should not blame Brahmins of India for caste system’s abnoxious aspects. And I leave it at that.

i think these are but inevitable changes, brought by technology and globalization. that a scavenger's son could dream today of being an engineer, and a maid's daughter could be a doctor, is the wonderful change that is taking place in india. which gives me great gratification. but all this means, entrenched establishment types like our community, needs to change in attitudes. change fast, or as it happpend in tamil nadu since 1967, they will be changed for you. by the erstwhile disenfranchised or by the sheer rule of numbers.

Are you aware that a Brahmin maid’s (there are many) son /daughter can not become a doctor even if he/she gets top marks? Don’t you think a maid is a maid whether B or NB? So your “great satisfaction” wont stand universal scrutiny for its appropriateness. You are speaking of rule of numbers and ‘ erstwhile disenfranchised’. Are you not aware that Brahmins were always part of this disenfranchised and have suffered grievously under the tyranny of the rule of numbers? That inspite of all these they kept their body and soul together to achieve so much goes to the credit of that community’s men and women who were extraordinarily brilliant and that was the blessing of God as they would tell you with humility.

whichever it is, the smart thing, is for us, to seek opportunities in places where our fathers did not venture to tread. it does not mean, others have not been there before. people movement has been the norm ever since the dawn of mankind. we tambrams did not grow in tamil nadu. we came here maybe a couple of thousand years ago. but from somewhere. to pack up the bags, and leave for what we presume to be better climate, is not a sin. it is just another facet of human behaviour.

a movement of some folks, is not a disaster for the community left behind. it will deal with changes in its own way. and for those who move, there is no loss either. they will find what they want, at the place they move. or they will keep on moving. such is life.

I agree with you that seeking opportunities elsewhere is something smart. I myself did that. But it is also my humble opinion that it is better to get back to your country once you have made it good in the place to which you migrated for greener pastures. Such movements are not disasters for the community left behind. But it would be a certain disaster for those who permanently forsake their mother country, its cultures and values.

the western society, atleast where i live, is far more accommodating of a new comer; than the indian society of a dalit with whom it has shared the landspace for thousands of years. the latter part bothers me. i do not want my children to be a part of this discrimination. this heritage. no amount of compensation, quotas or even apologies can wipe away the dirt instilled by manu's system, of which we are at the top of the totem pole. this is what i think.

You were accepted because you were qualified and carried with you a culture which will not create problems for the country of your choice. They have enough details about your caste, your culture, your geographical division in the parent country etc., in their database. Your qualifications did not get you anything by itself. It is that extra thing called intelligence that was in your genes that was recognized by them and their systems and so you, like the brilliant Chinese and others there got the acceptance. While Chinese are smart enough to understand the values and culture of their China as the foundation you deprecate all your culture and values that made you what you are. In your heart of heart you regret your birth as an Indian Brahmin and wish you were born a Canadian or a European. This is what comes from low selfesteem.

If you show this post to youngsters and if they have their genes in tact undamaged by the new culture and its values, they would in all probability tell you that you have overstayed and would help you pack your luggage. LOL.

 

[Jaykay767]

Vaagmi – Brilliant Post !!

Let me add a few more:

British, French, Spanish, American colonial raj has destroyed many ancient cultures to extinction & caused unparalleled suffering like the Red Indians, Africans/Slavery, Inca Civilization, Mexico, Gaunches in Canary Islands, etc..

Africans, Red Indians, Indians, etc… were shot at sight by these white men & women. Whites & their genes are draped in the blood of millions of innocents, & their curses !!

Unprecedented carnage, bloody heritage, nations & riches built on the blood of 100s of millions of innocents – To me, no amount of compensation, quotas or even apologies can wipe away the blood spilled by the white racist/colonial system & their countries which still continue the racist past !!

 

[krish44]

I find it amusing that people are not able to appreciate a person who detests the obnoxious aspects

of the prevaiiing caste system in india and finds comfort in freedom and respect for individuality found

in a different society. one adds terms like culture and ethos to caste to make the believers in caste

respectable and condemns those who have escaped to freedom and their refusal to return to such

a country as those lacking in self esteem

what kind of logic and argument is this?

the caste ridden indian society is sick. those who believe in it and commit and condone acts which

denies rights to some and confers privilege on others based on varna system need to be

condemned.

persons who have escaped to foreign shores and do not like to return are sensible.

why are the holy saints of this forum so interested in sitting in judgement on actions of those who

have escaped

tyrannies of the caste system. and trying to uphold a system which is rotten to the core and needs

to be dismantled for the good of indians themselves.

 

[Jaykay767]

Krish –

Brahmin dominance is long gone, the so called discrimination part is finished (may exist in pockets that too between OBC/Dalits which is also going). What is left is just a caste tag that identifies one as Brahmin etc.. & its identify in terms of culture, traditions, etc..

No one is supporting any actions that deny the rights of the others, this has been clarified many times on this forum.

If you consider the reservation, infact what we have now is actually reverse discrimination !!

If some people are reviled by 1000s of yrs of discrimination & no amount of apologies can resolve it, then I find it very amusing, that they feel the need to come to this forum & say they are TamBrams in the first place ?. So while they revile the caste system, they still want to call themselves as Tambrams ?

If they are so reviled by the very mention of caste system, why have they not officially changed their names to say dalit names or say some other names etc.. & go to some other forum & bad mouth the Brahmins, country etc… ? None of us here will care for sure.

Why do the PIOs feel the need to come here & say America is great even though it is a highly racist society, & the recent riots, killings, are so horrific ? not to mention the gory past with the blood of 100s of millions of red Indians. so discrimination is unpardonable, but killing 100s of millions like animals is okay, so America/Canada are great places to live. Astonishing logic !!

Many of the people on this forum are TBs, & we write for the benefit of the fellow Brahmins & share our views, highlight the concerns of settling aboard etc…. ! Those who are against the very concept of caste identity should look for a different place to squat & spout their ideas instead of coming here & spoil for a fight !!

LOL !!

 

[Vaagmi]

I find it amusing that people are not able to appreciate a person who detests the obnoxious aspects of the prevaiiing caste system in india and finds comfort in freedom and respect for individuality found in a different society. one adds terms like culture and ethos to caste to make the believers in casterespectable and condemns those who have escaped to freedom and their refusal to return to such a country as those lacking in self esteem . what kind of logic and argument is this?

I am going to be brutally frank. Please read my post again. I said the obnoxious aspects of caste system are not in anyway an invention exclusively by brahmins. You have missed a whole lot of truths that hang by that sentence. How did you come to the conclusion that I support the "cut the boy's head who dares to run away with a vanniyar girl because he is an SC boy" culture? How did you conclude that I support the two separate tumblers in a street side tea shop with one tumbler exclusively reserved for dalits even if he pays the same amount for the tea as other castes in the village? Do you know dalits in Tamilnadu-except the political leaders- have only respect and sympathy for the brahmins because they know they are not their tormentors?

Yes that is because of a certain cultural values that the brahmins have. So culture, values etc., appear to have an origin in the caste-because of the way you are brought up in an "atmosphere and ambience' which has been happening for centuries. Please tell me where is the flaw in this?

As a brahmin I have no malice towards any other caste. I treat them like any other human being for what they are worth. I have no two tumblers system in my home. In fact I dont even bother to find out what is the caste when people visit my house for any thing.

But I do respect values and culture of a brahmin way of life. I am a brahmin not because there are non-brahmins existing lower down in any totem pole. I am a brahmin just as my friends are Anglo saxons, nordics, mongoloids, negroids, slavs etc., etc.,

But if you expect that I have to prove that I am not a brahmin, I will certainly ask you to go and hang or jump into the nearest sea because I am not suffering from any self-pity or any guilty consciousness. I am against any attempt at homogenisation of the human mass because variety makes life worth living. Varieties will continue because it is the natural order. If you do not agree with this you can go prove to the world that you are not a brahmin by going and kissing everyone you come across in the street to prove it to the world after hanging your poonool in your coat stand. Brahmins would prefer to live their life in the enlightened way in which they are living at present.

the caste ridden indian society is sick. those who believe in it and commit and condone acts which denies rights to some and confers privilege on others based on varna system need to be condemned.

I agree as long as "those who believe in it and commit and condone acts which denies rights to some and confers privilege on others based on varna system" is not equated to "Brahmins".

persons who have escaped to foreign shores and do not like to return are sensible.

It is an individual's preference. Each one's situation decides this matter. There is no use lecturing to those who live in India that your decision is bad whereas my decision is right.

why are the holy saints of this forum so interested in sitting in judgement on actions of those who have escaped tyrannies of the caste system. and trying to uphold a system which is rotten to the core and needs to be dismantled for the good of indians themselves.

Because they (the holy saints of the forum) have seen both sides of the coin-they have lived abroad for sufficiently long and have returned back to live here. Because they are aware of the folly of lecturing to Indians (brahmins) about the greatness of western societies, because free sex, freedom the moment a girl or boy crosses 15 years, girls family or boys family are strange families because my family is different from them etc., are manifestations of laziness, escapist tendency, extreme selfishness and flippancy on the part of parents. Because they understand that "castes" by different names exist in all those societies and Indian society is not the only one which suffers from it. Because they understand that In India, because it is an ancient country, these human divisions are well entrenched, because brahmins(this is brahmin forum and the lectures by these armchair revolutionaries are addressed to this audience all along) realise that they are in no way responsible for the obnoxious aspects of caste system and finally because brahmins are rather at the receiving end for no fault of theirs.

Any more questions on this?

 

[krish44]

I am going to be brutally frank. Please read my post again. I said the obnoxious aspects of caste system are not in anyway an invention exclusively by brahmins. You have missed a whole lot of truths that hang by that sentence. How did you come to the conclusion that I support the "cut the boy's head who dares to run away with a vanniyar girl because he is an SC boy" culture? How did you conclude that I support the two separate tumblers in a street side tea shop with one tumbler exclusively reserved for dalits even if he pays the same amount for the tea as other castes in the village? Do you know dalits in Tamilnadu-except the political leaders- have only respect and sympathy for the brahmins because they know they are not their tormentors?

Yes that is because of a certain cultural values that the brahmins have. So culture, values etc., appear to have an origin in the caste-because of the way you are brought up in an "atmosphere and ambience' which has been happening for centuries. Please tell me where is the flaw in this?

As a brahmin I have no malice towards any other caste. I treat them like any other human being for what they are worth. I have no two tumblers system in my home. In fact I dont even bother to find out what is the caste when people visit my house for any thing.

But I do respect values and culture of a brahmin way of life. I am a brahmin not because there are non-brahmins existing lower down in any totem pole. I am a brahmin just as my friends are Anglo saxons, nordics, mongoloids, negroids, slavs etc., etc.,

But if you expect that I have to prove that I am not a brahmin, I will certainly ask you to go and hang or jump into the nearest sea because I am not suffering from any self-pity or any guilty consciousness. I am against any attempt at homogenisation of the human mass because variety makes life worth living. Varieties will continue because it is the natural order. If you do not agree with this you can go prove to the world that you are not a brahmin by going and kissing everyone you come across in the street to prove it to the world after hanging your poonool in your coat stand. Brahmins would prefer to live their life in the enlightened way in which they are living at present.



I agree as long as "those who believe in it and commit and condone acts which denies rights to some and confers privilege on others based on varna system" is not equated to "Brahmins".

It is an individual's preference. Each one's situation decides this matter. There is no use lecturing to those who live in India that your decision is bad whereas my decision is right.



Because they (the holy saints of the forum) have seen both sides of the coin-they have lived abroad for sufficiently long and have returned back to live here. Because they are aware of the folly of lecturing to Indians (brahmins) about the greatness of western societies, because free sex, freedom the moment a girl or boy crosses 15 years, girls family or boys family are strange families because my family is different from them etc., are manifestations of laziness, escapist tendency, extreme selfishness and flippancy on the part of parents. Because they understand that "castes" by different names exist in all those societies and Indian society is not the only one which suffers from it. Because they understand that In India, because it is an ancient country, these human divisions are well entrenched, because brahmins(this is brahmin forum and the lectures by these armchair revolutionaries are addressed to this audience all along) realise that they are in no way responsible for the obnoxious aspects of caste system and finally because brahmins are rather at the receiving end for no fault of theirs.

Any more questions on this?

summary of your post appears to be that
1. As a brahmin , you are at the receiving end of discriminaton.you personally do not torment

dalits.

2. you happen to be a brahmin and subscribe to values and culture of a certain way of life

or have no malice towards any other caste.

3. You agree that you do not consider it correct that caste should confer privilege or deny rights.

you think brahmins do not belong to this class of people [ it is a general statement open to

challenge] who discriminate

4 you feel that returning from abroad is a personal choice . some might like to return after making

money abroad. also a different kind of caste systems also exist abroad . brahmins are in no way

responsible for what is existing in india

how a person is as an individual and how he is perceived when his caste identity is revealed are

two different things.

at a personal level you might be all that you have said about yourself.

when you are perceived as belonging to a particular caste, there is a particular stereotype characteristics

associated with it which damns you as you belong to that caste,

thats the evil associated with the caste system

as long as caste system remains, caste ism

will rear its ugly head and cause damage to various caste

sections. at the macro level, those who want to have a caste identity without conforming to the

stereotype cannot be treated as exception and be treated dissimilarly by other castes.

so varna system if if it is bad, it needs to be done with , not withstanding some individual

exceptions who do not subscribe to its bad caste actions

some dravidian leaders destroyed the brahmin hegemony and reduced them to powerless paupers.

similarly dalits are facing the brunt and are trying to confront and an attempt is being made to

subdue them . brahmins are only spectators in this and not protesting against what is happening to

dalits.

all this does not do good to society.

those abroad who would not like to be associated with all this are not returning. i can appreciate

their reluctance and empathise with that

 

[kunjuppu]

i would like to refocus on the op ed of this thread. that itself was initiated by a op ed article in the times of india by badri seshadri, and had qualified support by jeyamohan and charu nivedita, reputable modern tamil writers. that brahmins had no place in tamil society of today and it was a plea from badri, that they be given some breathing space, devoid of the constant vitriol and hatred heaped on them, at the convenience of the politicians and the tamil cinema.

no one was doing any brahmin bashing or feeling guilty. do not know what to feel guilty about. some people want to indulge in breast beating of sorts, can do so. but i dont know what instigates them in this thread, as nothing in the articles mentioned is deragatory to brahmins. there are problems. and what is suggested is a practical solution to today's reality.

my focus, was on my own personal reaction to the thought of bringing up children in tamil nadu/india of today, as viewed some 40 years ago. for more reasons than one, i opted out of india in 1973. and today if i validate my decision, one outstanding reasons stands tall..and that is the pervasive effects of caste in india, and my inability to deal with it on my standards, and my abhorrence to the same.

like it or not, under india's constitution, the beef eating mani shankar aiyar and the kanchi mutt head, are both classified the same - tamil brahmins and would, whether they like it or not, dumped together as paarppaans, and vilified, if it would suit, a vast majority of non brahmin tamils. to me this is a fact, and i do not wish to reason here the cause of it. we are the children of our ancestors, and our ancestors are tambrams. and so are we.

barring the dalits, i think, every one in india, irrespective of their caste or even religion, is responsible for the practise caste in its utmost cruelty. to that extent, i feel, the dalits are owed an apology. by every caste, starting from brahmins and down to all the chettiars, gounders, pillais etc. atleast on this point, there can be an agreement among us. i hope. those who feel, that the dalits, are not owed anything, i have nothing to say to them.

i wish to bring up my children as casteless hindus. that can be possible only outside of india. one who has not experienced life outside of india, will have no concept of what it is to be a hindu, sans caste. again i would not live in europe. it is an ancient society just as old as us, with its mountains of prejudices and bloodbaths. i would only seek the americas or the australias, or perhaps singapore. enough place for a small community of our size to migrate.

to call a palce one's home state, one needs a level of social acceptance. someone was happy to be addressed with respect as 'iyerey'. i do not want respect. i seek acceptance. i would rather be called macchi anyday than iyerey, for there is an intimacy and camraderie in macchi, that i would wish in my home society.

the nairs, gounders, muslims, christians earn their fortunes outside of the country, and come back to the village of their origin to live comfortably. they have strength in numbers. but we brahmins do not have villages any more to come to. thanks to family planning, for the past 50 years, it is hard to get a group of 20 together for a wedding group photo. dwindling numbers dictate how we choose to survive in this fast changing world.

i would like to end here with a interview by poomani (who won the sahitya academy award this year), to jeyamohan. poomani grew up in a village by the tamraparani river, southern tamil nadu. one day the temple priest slipped while bathing and fell in the river, and shouted for help. the young poomani and his mother were passing by and no one else was around to help. quickly she jumped in the river, got hold of the brahmin, and dragged him to ground to safety.

being touched by a dalit, was theettu to the brahmin, who immediately cast away his clothes, and took a bath in the river, for a second time. even more surprising, for poomani's mother, she went home, wetted her clothes, drew water from her well, and took a bath herself. for, to her, to touch a brahmin, was theettu. in his own uniquely ironic way, poomani was explaining that the theettu concept worked both ways.

this is the reality of our caste system.

so back to badri seshadri, jeyamohan, contrarian - all their views on the situation of the tamil brahmin in tamil nadu today. or the community's future. any takers?

 

[Jaykay767]

If one chooses to view the world/caste system as it was “perceived” 40 years back & continue to stay there all their lives, no one can help.

If people come to TN/India today & had made an honest effort to understand how the dalits feel today, then one will realize how sweeping the changes are.

These stories of dalit touching a Brahmin leading to theetu are stories built by the popular media based on what happened 300 yrs back even when the British landed here.

There are 2 ways to live one’s life – life appreciating the positive change – the sweeping change that has happened in the last 65+ yrsin India on the caste landscape OR life of hate against communities, religion,etc…

Either of the decision will have long term consequences across generations!!

 

[Jaykay767]

My view is that PIOs are pretty much trapped in westafter migrating there for various reasons – some understandably did not have achoice 30/40 yrs back given that there were hardly any jobs.

Some people go there & settle down permanently becausethey do not want to take care of their in-laws or their parents whichever thecase may be!! – LOL !!

But irrespective of why they went, all of them aretrapped, they are stuck there & unable to come back. And they give variety ofreasons, kids don’t want to come back, very difficult to uproot from there& come back here, etc…

They also know deep down that all that they knew in termsof religion, culture, traditions are lost either in their own life time becausethey did not follow any, or in their Kids life time because it is very difficultto follow in the west!

See, my point is we need to educate the rest of Indians,that every choice has a deep impact & long lasting. If after weighing thepros & cons, some want to relocate, then fine, it is individual choice, butto portray that west is all good, India is not correct !

 

[Jaykay767]

When I said USA is highly racist based on the millions &millions of reports in every newspaper, continuous coverage of Ferguson riotsin every news channel in the world, extensive discussion on how deep racismexists in everyday society, there was a sea of protests by PIOs saying therewas hardly any racism. One should not believe these news reports!

On the other hand, when everyone on this forum &people in general say, the discriminative caste system is non-existent in TN today& no Brahmin can dare to even talk about discrimination, people do not wantto believe. They want to quote 1 odd report or some incident no one knows,& they make it a life defining issue !!!

Amazing isn’t it how deep hatred can cloud people’s judgment!!

 

[sarang]

The brahmin basher is back with a bang with old sauce regurgitated. Better sense has not prevailed. Many sites like mintamil, despite having majority other than brahmin members do not tolerate brahmin bashing, and violators are warned. There must be something seriously wrong to carry and vent venom. Canada has nourished anti brahmin, anti Hindu, pro ltte, pro kalistani firebrands. Tambrams and all India brahmins are doing fine, and contribute to nation building, protection of sanatana dharma and study and propagation of scriptures. Bhatat will march ahead and BBs can shout to their heart's content but will achieve nothing.

 

[sarang]

I do not understand why respect and acceptance are mutually exclusive. The mindset needs a total overhaul. The person calling 'iyere' does not consider himself inferior, nor the person calling the other 'founder or kallar' feels superior.

 

[zebra16]

Dear Kunjuppu,

I read your post fully. It is interesting as comes from the distant shore. The dhrishtikone is naturally different. I thought I would respond to just a few points in order to reduce the reading fatigue. Like a child going to a beach is in all wonderment, wide eyed and thoroughly impressed, you said this:



Every one visiting US or Canada will be impressed with the casteless society. So they abandon their caste and along with it perhaps the culture and traditions too in the newfound heaven. Every society has classes and divisions in the society. This is natural. If it is not caste it is something else. I travelled in the London tube and was specifically called by an abusive term by a whiteman when I was getting down at my stop because he believed in a nonexisting right to get down first from the train. That was when I was exposed to the abuse on the basis of a perceived identity. I don’t believe that US or Canada does not have such undercurrents. An Indian suffers from a woefully inadequate self esteem wherever he is. It is a genetic disorder. So when he is impressed with the outward shine of alien cultures he turns to self pity. Like the child with wide eyes you got in everything. But as an adult you could have analysed it without preconceived notions. Culture and values are acquired over centuries not in a jiffy because someone is nice to me. You know why you should not blame Brahmins of India for caste system’s abnoxious aspects. And I leave it at that.



Are you aware that a Brahmin maid’s (there are many) son /daughter can not become a doctor even if he/she gets top marks? Don’t you think a maid is a maid whether B or NB? So your “great satisfaction” wont stand universal scrutiny for its appropriateness. You are speaking of rule of numbers and ‘ erstwhile disenfranchised’. Are you not aware that Brahmins were always part of this disenfranchised and have suffered grievously under the tyranny of the rule of numbers? That inspite of all these they kept their body and soul together to achieve so much goes to the credit of that community’s men and women who were extraordinarily brilliant and that was the blessing of God as they would tell you with humility.



I agree with you that seeking opportunities elsewhere is something smart. I myself did that. But it is also my humble opinion that it is better to get back to your country once you have made it good in the place to which you migrated for greener pastures. Such movements are not disasters for the community left behind. But it would be a certain disaster for those who permanently forsake their mother country, its cultures and values.



You were accepted because you were qualified and carried with you a culture which will not create problems for the country of your choice. They have enough details about your caste, your culture, your geographical division in the parent country etc., in their database. Your qualifications did not get you anything by itself. It is that extra thing called intelligence that was in your genes that was recognized by them and their systems and so you, like the brilliant Chinese and others there got the acceptance. While Chinese are smart enough to understand the values and culture of their China as the foundation you deprecate all your culture and values that made you what you are. In your heart of heart you regret your birth as an Indian Brahmin and wish you were born a Canadian or a European. This is what comes from low selfesteem.

If you show this post to youngsters and if they have their genes in tact undamaged by the new culture and its values, they would in all probability tell you that you have overstayed and would help you pack your luggage. LOL.

An excellent post, especially the high-lighted portions. May be it is time to introspect with open mind rather than approximating all the causes to the caste system.

 

[vsubbu48]

If one chooses to view the world/caste system as it was “perceived” 40 years back & continue to stay there all their lives, no one can help.

Dear Sir,

Your repeated assertion that things have changed in 40 years surprises me. I left TN before 40 years. My children were brought up in Gujarat and Maharashtra and have never lived in TN. When my daughter got a software engineer's job she went to Mangalore for training. There she met some trainees from TN. She was shocked when they told her that they do not like brahmins and do not even speak to them. Since my daughter was from outside TN, they made an exception in her case. This happened in 2010. When my daughter returned from the training she told me about this incident. This shows that things have not changed for worse as far as brahmins in TN are concerned.

In the article Shri Kunjuppu has attached I found two items which do not seem to be based on facts.

a) He has mentioned that SBI is dominated by brahmins and resembles an agraharam. When I joined SBI, Ahmedabad circle in 1971 I was cautioned not to seek a transfer to SBI, Madras circle due to the rampant anti-brahmin atmosphere there. Therefore, a dozen Tambrams who joined there chose to stay put in Gujarat.

b) Similarly he says that IIT, Madras is dominated by Tambrams. My information is that the secretary of students union in IIT, Madras is a Christian. If the institution is dominated by brahmins would they elect a Christian? A study of students joining IIT has found that more than 80% are students from Andhra Pradesh. This fact also contradicts his assertion that Tambrams dominate IIT, Madras.

 

[vgane]

Dear Sir,

Your repeated assertion that things have changed in 40 years surprises me. I left TN before 40 years. My children were brought up in Gujarat and Maharashtra and have never lived in TN. When my daughter got a software engineer's job she went to Mangalore for training. There she met some trainees from TN. She was shocked when they told her that they do not like brahmins and do not even speak to them. Since my daughter was from outside TN, they made an exception in her case. This happened in 2010. When my daughter returned from the training she told me about this incident. This shows that things have not changed for worse as far as brahmins in TN are concerned.

In the article Shri Kunjuppu has attached I found two items which do not seem to be based on facts.

a) He has mentioned that SBI is dominated by brahmins and resembles an agraharam. When I joined SBI, Ahmedabad circle in 1971 I was cautioned not to seek a transfer to SBI, Madras circle due to the rampant anti-brahmin atmosphere there. Therefore, a dozen Tambrams who joined there chose to stay put in Gujarat.

b) Similarly he says that IIT, Madras is dominated by Tambrams. My information is that the secretary of students union in IIT, Madras is a Christian. If the institution is dominated by brahmins would they elect a Christian? A study of students joining IIT has found that more than 80% are students from Andhra Pradesh. This fact also contradicts his assertion that Tambrams dominate IIT, Madras.

I do agree that revulsion towards B is still there and it shows up in various forms...It comes up unannounced and then you carry it life long..I decided to move outside TN basically on account of this..Even 1 stray incident among a string of 100 interactions damages the psyche

It is not that the TB's have just remained mute spectators..I wanted to share an incident that happened in my family..It happened 2 years back..There was an adjacent plot of land in Chennai which was used as a dumping yard by a neighbor..Dad got annoyed & confronted the neighbor..The neighbor (elderly in his 80's) poured his hatred by calling dad (He is 85+) as Pappara budhiya katriya...Immediately my dad took off the Veechu aruvaal which he had carried for his personal protection and threatened the neighbour...The neighbour was astonished by my dad's aggression and became silent after this..Not only did he stop threatening my dad but his family came down from an adversarial position to a friendly one...His family attended the our family's house warming too

Two learnings out of this:

1. In case someone quotes your caste & belittles you, do not be silent..Return it back

2. Out of 100 interactions one or two turn sour in the B-NB case & B's caste is derided by the other side...You have to take it in your stride..Similar thing happens in any other place..Only thing it will not be a B-NB but may be North-South, Indian-White, Hindu-Muslim, Indian-Black

I am not advocating that B should find an oasis elsewhere...Our culture will be protected in the Dravidian land...I feel that TB's in TN will have a bright future..It is a matter of time..This is just a conjecture..Hope it gets true!

 

[Vaagmi]

Long posts need long replies. Please bear with me. Those with poor attention span please skip. Thank you.

my focus, was on my own personal reaction to the thought of bringing up children in tamil nadu/india of today, as viewed some 40 years ago. for more reasons than one, i opted out of india in 1973. and today if i validate my decision, one outstanding reasons stands tall..and that is the pervasive effects of caste in india, and my inability to deal with it on my standards, and my abhorrence to the same.

like it or not, under india's constitution, the beef eating mani shankar aiyar and the kanchi mutt head, are both classified the same - tamil brahmins and would, whether they like it or not, dumped together as paarppaans, and vilified, if it would suit, a vast majority of non brahmin tamils. to me this is a fact, and i do not wish to reason here the cause of it. we are the children of our ancestors, and our ancestors are tambrams. and so are we.

In 1973 the opportunities were few. For a qualified person from any community, the slots which will help him grow and utilise his talent were limited in numbers and the competition was stiff with reservations etc., making it extremely tight. So you went. That was the right decision at that point of time. To look at it as a success of a different sort, internalize it and then come to lecture about the caste system is going overboard. Not only you, every brahmin here is unable to deal with the kind of casteism that is practised here within their standards and hence they abhor it just as you do. So they have steeled themselves up. They will remain a paarpaan come what may. They will hang on to their poonool or hang by that poonool. But their brahminism is not the one that is defined by the likes of stupid NB leaders for their political reasons. It is a "praja tantum" which they will not allow to break. They wont do that do that because they think they owe it to the society. In my being a brahmin there is no place for any superiority/inferiority totem pole positions by birth. The position is always acquired by dint of perseverance. So I have no regrets that a beef eating MS Iyer keeps me company there. May be his son may become a poonool wearing veda chanting one or some one down the line in his lineage. The potential matters. I am not afraid of the society calling me a paarpan because it calls a dalit by another expletive. Thanks to my ancestors this Indian society can never become a monstrously hatred filled one like the Europe and wipe us all out from the face of the earth. If at all it comes to that we would have a sufficiently large branch of our brahmin population in the US and Canada who would make the life of our enemies miserable by wielding sufficient influence there on the melting pot's other components. so try to be a brahmin wherever you go and settle because it is all just about being good to the society. Even if you are permanently down with your aberration, when your children shine and wonder why they shine in the midst of others and try to find the reason they will realise the truth.

barring the dalits, i think, every one in india, irrespective of their caste or even religion, is responsible for the practise caste in its utmost cruelty. to that extent, i feel, the dalits are owed an apology. by every caste, starting from brahmins and down to all the chettiars, gounders, pillais etc. atleast on this point, there can be an agreement among us. i hope. those who feel, that the dalits, are not owed anything, i have nothing to say to them.

Dalits do not want apology because apology is at best a token. Tokenism can not be an answer to centuries of oppression. The best solution will be a substantial increase in reservation disproportionate to their population in the jobs and political positions and an understanding that every other Chief Minister of a state should be a dalit. Your understanding of the castes is some what skewed. It was free of superior/inferior metrics to start with. It was converted into a horrible discriminatory system by the interested landowning class later.

i wish to bring up my children as casteless hindus. that can be possible only outside of india. one who has not experienced life outside of india, will have no concept of what it is to be a hindu, sans caste. again i would not live in europe. it is an ancient society just as old as us, with its mountains of prejudices and bloodbaths. i would only seek the americas or the australias, or perhaps singapore. enough place for a small community of our size to migrate.

Migrate they will. That is the trend. But if you encourage your children to forget deliberately their brahmin background, you will robbing them of a heritage. a heritage which is high in what is required for a human being to live a balanced happy life on earth. I will just quote one instances for you to draw your conclusions:

1.In my younger days I lived away from my country and state for long periods and so my daughter did not have the opportunity to study Tamil. I regret so much the tyranny of the circumstances and my own inability to stay here that I will carry this regret to my grave. Every time when tears well up in my eyes on hearing a beautiful Tamil song or whenever i jump with joy on reading a beautiful kavithai and when my daughter looks at me quizzically I die an instant death.

I would suggest to you that you tell your children all that is good about being a brahmin and pass on those values to cherish. That will do them a lot of good.

i would like to end here with a interview by poomani (who won the sahitya academy award this year), to jeyamohan. poomani grew up in a village by the tamraparani river, southern tamil nadu. one day the temple priest slipped while bathing and fell in the river, and shouted for help. the young poomani and his mother were passing by and no one else was around to help. quickly she jumped in the river, got hold of the brahmin, and dragged him to ground to safety.
being touched by a dalit, was theettu to the brahmin, who immediately cast away his clothes, and took a bath in the river, for a second time. even more surprising, for poomani's mother, she went home, wetted her clothes, drew water from her well, and took a bath herself. for, to her, to touch a brahmin, was theettu. in his own uniquely ironic way, poomani was explaining that the theettu concept worked both ways.
this is the reality of our caste system.

No this is not the reality of the system today. You have read the poomani of today. Have you read the Jayakantan of yesterday? He has also written about the brahmins who hated the castes, who voluntarily cut of their poonool, who yearned to be just human beings etc., Both poomani and Jayakantan got theior accolades from the discerning brahmin readership. and that is the reality of the caste system today. Jayakantan came to be known by the Tamilworld because of his brahmin readers just as poomani. Both had to write from their deep values picked up from the leftist movements and not from the stupid kazhagam crowd. That speaks volumes for the kind of atmosphere that exists in Tamilnadu in the caste front. Caste is today used to the hilt to perpetrate atrocities, to win votes, to use power to get rich at the cost of people, to sell the hatred opium liberally to the population through all subtle and no so subtle means. Brahmins will stay brahmins at least to fight this menace.

so back to badri seshadri, jeyamohan, contrarian - all their views on the situation of the tamil brahmin in tamil nadu today. or the community's future. any takers?

To Badri Seshadri-just dont bother to complain about what is happening. stoically bear it out. Keep yourself together and fight when you get a chance. Try to organize in an inabtrusive way silently like the parsis and live as a resourceful minority here in India.

To Jayamohan, thanks for the support. We will remember that.

To poomani, keep it up we are with you. May be we are too small to be of much use to you in your bigger fight. But we can contribute.

 

[sarang]

What is frightening is the life and attitude of children brought up on such a hate filled filial environment brainwashed on perceived atrocities committed by grand parents, great grand parents and their ancestors. Hope they don't hate their ancestors, but form their own opinion and learn from good acharyas.

 

[sarang]

Jayakanthan has said that his one major regret was not learning Sanskrit.

 

[sarang]

I can't agree with you more. Controlled violence is the best option. Even in our forum BBs were having a field day till about an year ago. It is futile to argue with them.

1. In case someone quotes your caste & belittles you, do not be silent..Return it back!

 

[kunjuppu]

Long posts need long replies.



.

... not always

dear vaagmi, thank you for a well thought out, discerning, and making sense (to me atleast) response. much appreciated.