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Tambrams should embrace Ravana as their own- not reject him

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I am not too impressed with Rama, he was too uptight about a promise even his father did not want to keep. He didn't value his woman's love and cared more for what others may think. But, none of this can make what Ravana did anything a vie bit better than totally contemptible.

It is silly to question whether Sita went willingly or not. The only account we have are stories told and retold, and they all say Ravana abducted her. Now, those who express any sympathy for this monster Ravana need to have their head examined.

Those who see similarities with Illiad must account for the fact Helen was the wife of the brother of the king, not the king himself and that she went willingly not abducted. We can't just change the story of Sita and force fit it with Illiad to suit one's pet theory. If this can be permitted, why not change the story of Helen and say the reality was that Helen was really abducted by Paris, and that she was deeply in love with Menelaus.

IMO, it does not matter how we view Rama, I for one think Rama was a wimp and didn't stand by the woman who loved him dearly, but what Ravana did was evil. To abduct a woman against her will cannot be just glossed over. Anybody who expresses any sympathy, let alone adoration, for what Ravana did is plain and simple stupid and crazy.

To me, all this is not about Rama or Ravana, it is about Sita. She loved Rama. Ravana tried to take her away. Rama cared more about his own honor that she sent her away when she was pregnant. So, I say to all those who are talking about Rama or Ravana, you people are sick. Look at the story from Sita's POV. The two men in her story were asses in their own ways. Those who try to admire either of them deserves to be despised.

Cheers!

Nor am i to be honest. I prefer Hanuman anyday. But to be fair I feel Ravana was doing what he thought was right for him so fair play to him. He is a "bad man" and thats what bad men do. But Rama?! He was supposed to be a great prince, a god even!

I recommend everyone who wants to see the epic from Sita's POV to watch Sita sings the Blues by Nina Paley.

Sita Sings the Blues - YouTube
 
Sita had every chance to escape if she wanted.
When Hanuman offered to take her back to Rama..she refused cos she wanted Rama to come kill Raavan.
Sita had more confidence in Rama and Lakshmana coming over and winning Ravana and taking her.
She had the fear of falling into the ocean and drowning if she had accepted Hanuman's offer.
This is what Hanuman said to her refusal
"It is indeed not fit for a woman to mount on my back and traverse an extensive ocean, which is having a width of one hundred yojanas."

"O Seetha endowed with modesty! The second reason you mentioned that you would not be touching any one else other then Rama is befitting of you, the wife of that high soled Rama. O princess! which other lady except you can speak of such sweet words?"
Are we trying to be more wise than Hanuman to judge which was better?
If she had accepted Hanumans offer of transporting her to Rama..she could have avoided loss of lives of many and also its better for Rama cos he does stand a risk of being wounded by Raavan too.
Had Ravana listened to Vibhishana, this loss would not have happened either.
And if Rama had still requested the fire ordeal then Sita had an option to decide what she really she wanted..

1)To go thru the test for the sake of Rama
2)To go back to Lanka and be Raavan's queen
3)To say bye to both Rama and Raavan and head back to her fathers place.
If Rama had not done that in Public and at that moment, every where including this TB forum would have been filled
with quotes suspecting Sita. It was not Rama who suspected Sita. It was and would have been the Prajas.
And the choice she made is what differentiates her from the ordinary.
P.S..this posts of mine is purely for discussion purposes that is if Ramayan was just a story.
I do not intend to disrespect Rama,Sita or Ravan as I hold all 3 with high regard.
 
All said and done, Ravana was a learned Brahmin. Our community is in this sorry plight because we didn't defend our own, nor do we do so even now. We never learn from history, we don't learn from reality either.
 
Ashwin's post #53:


All said and done, Ravana was a learned Brahmin.


So learned brahmins can kidnap any one's wife.

Our community is in this sorry plight because we didn't defend our own, nor do we do so even now. We never learn from history, we don't learn from reality either.

We should learn from history. If a learned brahmin kidnaps some one's wife the entire community should rally behind him.
 
I am not too impressed with Rama, he was too uptight about a promise even his father did not want to keep. He didn't value his woman's love and cared more for what others may think. But, none of this can make what Ravana did anything a vie bit better than totally contemptible.

It is silly to question whether Sita went willingly or not. The only account we have are stories told and retold, and they all say Ravana abducted her. Now, those who express any sympathy for this monster Ravana need to have their head examined.

Those who see similarities with Illiad must account for the fact Helen was the wife of the brother of the king, not the king himself and that she went willingly not abducted. We can't just change the story of Sita and force fit it with Illiad to suit one's pet theory. If this can be permitted, why not change the story of Helen and say the reality was that Helen was really abducted by Paris, and that she was deeply in love with Menelaus.

IMO, it does not matter how we view Rama, I for one think Rama was a wimp and didn't stand by the woman who loved him dearly, but what Ravana did was evil. To abduct a woman against her will cannot be just glossed over. Anybody who expresses any sympathy, let alone adoration, for what Ravana did is plain and simple stupid and crazy.

To me, all this is not about Rama or Ravana, it is about Sita. She loved Rama. Ravana tried to take her away. Rama cared more about his own honor that she sent her away when she was pregnant. So, I say to all those who are talking about Rama or Ravana, you people are sick. Look at the story from Sita's POV. The two men in her story were asses in their own ways. Those who try to admire either of them deserves to be despised.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

As you know Ramayana is, for me, a story written in a very longish way, like the super-mega serials in tv nowadays. So, if my views do not suit some people, I request their pardon.

For me, ramayana seems to have been an attempt by some sanskrit-scholar scribe who, after hearing about the Greek epics somehow, attempted his own "desi" version. It is also possible that the said scribe had some inputs about Iliad proper, he chose a poetic metre also somewhat close to the original. (This is my view as an ignoramus and I welcome corrections/criticism for my improved knowledge.)

So, when this writer wanted a very similar set-up to that of Iliad, he had to have a mainland and another land to be reached across the sea, where the hero's kidnapped wife was kept imprisoned. Our Indian scribe immediately remembered Lanka and he made his hero, Rama, wend his way through the entire south India.

I am not sure if, as jaykay postulates, african+yedda, white+black egyptian priests would have depicted their own folk, dravidians, as monkeys.

Coming to Ravana vs Rama, I think it is, once again, the victor who lays down the rules. Ravana, we say, kidnapped Rama's wife which is against Sanatana Dharma. So Rama killed Ravana. How far is this correct? Rama, in theory, lived in the treta yuga not kaliyuga. The prohibition against sexual intercourse with another's wife came about after Uddalaka Shvetaketu banned it as "kalivarjya" and there was no such rule in tretayuga, obviously. So, what wrong did Ravana commit, if as a 'rAkShasa' he wanted to enjoy a woman he desired.

I, therefore, think Rama was a mere mercenary in the hands of his character's creators, to propagate and enforce their own povs without regard to whatever had been written by their own fraternity elsewhere.

In mho, a man who does not trust his wife should not have gone to far-off Lanka to wage a war, with the help of monkeys, and subsequently abandon the pregnant wife based on some gossip. Rama is not only a wimp of the worst order but an unreliable husband too. Ravana to me comes out as a brave and devout king who was, unfortunately, ditched by vibheeshaNa.
 
If I have to watch brahmins bashing :brick:
I will prefer to have Ravan as its victim.:rolleyes:
He really deserves it.:high5:

All said and done, Ravana was a learned Brahmin. Our community is in this sorry plight because we didn't defend our own, nor do we do so even now. We never learn from history, we don't learn from reality either.
 
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Sir! Are you married??
If so your wife better learn to protect herself learning martial arts, since you will be a silent witness - if she will have any problem including kidnapping.

Hi Renuka,

Good One !. Agree, this is not intended to direspect anyone. !

However all rishis/saints/commentators have taken sides in this WAR either on the side of Rama or Ravana. As I said earlier, this war splits the society !!

Any war that kills millions of innocents is WRONG at ALL LEVELS irrespective of who wages this & however great the cause may be.

I am sorry, I dont see winning a wife back as a great cause in the first place & that too if it involves the lives of millions !!

Cheers,
JK
 
Dear Shri Nara,

As you know Ramayana is, for me, a story written in a very longish way, like the super-mega serials in tv nowadays. So, if my views do not suit some people, I request their pardon.

For me, ramayana seems to have been an attempt by some sanskrit-scholar scribe who, after hearing about the Greek epics somehow, attempted his own "desi" version. It is also possible that the said scribe had some inputs about Iliad proper, he chose a poetic metre also somewhat close to the original. (This is my view as an ignoramus and I welcome corrections/criticism for my improved knowledge.)

So, when this writer wanted a very similar set-up to that of Iliad, he had to have a mainland and another land to be reached across the sea, where the hero's kidnapped wife was kept imprisoned. Our Indian scribe immediately remembered Lanka and he made his hero, Rama, wend his way through the entire south India.

I am not sure if, as jaykay postulates, african+yedda, white+black egyptian priests would have depicted their own folk, dravidians, as monkeys.

Coming to Ravana vs Rama, I think it is, once again, the victor who lays down the rules. Ravana, we say, kidnapped Rama's wife which is against Sanatana Dharma. So Rama killed Ravana. How far is this correct? Rama, in theory, lived in the treta yuga not kaliyuga. The prohibition against sexual intercourse with another's wife came about after Uddalaka Shvetaketu banned it as "kalivarjya" and there was no such rule in tretayuga, obviously. So, what wrong did Ravana commit, if as a 'rAkShasa' he wanted to enjoy a woman he desired.

I, therefore, think Rama was a mere mercenary in the hands of his character's creators, to propagate and enforce their own povs without regard to whatever had been written by their own fraternity elsewhere.

In mho, a man who does not trust his wife should not have gone to far-off Lanka to wage a war, with the help of monkeys, and subsequently abandon the pregnant wife based on some gossip. Rama is not only a wimp of the worst order but an unreliable husband too. Ravana to me comes out as a brave and devout king who was, unfortunately, ditched by vibheeshaNa.

Ramayana is bearable compared to the Mahabharat. That is wayy wayy tooo long and sooo many characters and just too much! I remember trying to read it as a child and when i'd come to the middle i would be like "oh god" what happened in the beginning?! and so many new names, plots etc. So compared to that the Ramayana was much more of an easier read. Apart from Hanuman of course :)

What you said about victors laying down the rules is so true, even today. History is written by the victors and Might is right. Your post reminded me of those sayings.
 
Sir! Are you married??
If so your wife better learn to protect herself learning martial arts, since you will be a silent witness - if she will have any problem including kidnapping.

No, I am not married as yet !. I may be singing a different tune after i get married !! :)

I hear from my friends that people do crazy sttuff in marriage like going to war !! :)
 
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Dear Shri Nara,

As you know Ramayana is, for me, a story written in a very longish way, like the super-mega serials in tv nowadays. So, if my views do not suit some people, I request their pardon.

For me, ramayana seems to have been an attempt by some sanskrit-scholar scribe who, after hearing about the Greek epics somehow, attempted his own "desi" version. It is also possible that the said scribe had some inputs about Iliad proper, he chose a poetic metre also somewhat close to the original. (This is my view as an ignoramus and I welcome corrections/criticism for my improved knowledge.)

So, when this writer wanted a very similar set-up to that of Iliad, he had to have a mainland and another land to be reached across the sea, where the hero's kidnapped wife was kept imprisoned. Our Indian scribe immediately remembered Lanka and he made his hero, Rama, wend his way through the entire south India.

I am not sure if, as jaykay postulates, african+yedda, white+black egyptian priests would have depicted their own folk, dravidians, as monkeys.

Coming to Ravana vs Rama, I think it is, once again, the victor who lays down the rules. Ravana, we say, kidnapped Rama's wife which is against Sanatana Dharma. So Rama killed Ravana. How far is this correct? Rama, in theory, lived in the treta yuga not kaliyuga. The prohibition against sexual intercourse with another's wife came about after Uddalaka Shvetaketu banned it as "kalivarjya" and there was no such rule in tretayuga, obviously. So, what wrong did Ravana commit, if as a 'rAkShasa' he wanted to enjoy a woman he desired.

I, therefore, think Rama was a mere mercenary in the hands of his character's creators, to propagate and enforce their own povs without regard to whatever had been written by their own fraternity elsewhere.

In mho, a man who does not trust his wife should not have gone to far-off Lanka to wage a war, with the help of monkeys, and subsequently abandon the pregnant wife based on some gossip. Rama is not only a wimp of the worst order but an unreliable husband too. Ravana to me comes out as a brave and devout king who was, unfortunately, ditched by vibheeshaNa.


Dear Sangom, To clarify, I am referring to the yedda (Aborginals) as the monkey people in Ramayana !. Before the egytian mixed race landed in South India, they were already occupied by the aborginals. if you go to andaman you can still see them !! no offence to anyone !
 
Sir! Are you married??
If so your wife better learn to protect herself learning martial arts, since you will be a silent witness - if she will have any problem including kidnapping.

I agree with you Mrs. Ramani,

It is another scared brahmin can not even promise to protect his family. Why would you want a family? Looks like you want a sex slave and a house keeper.
LOL.

There are some sacrifice you have to make for your family.
 
According to Ramayana Ravana had kidnapped wives from every species of life. He had even kidnapped Agni Deva's wife Swaha. Ravana had ordered Sita Devi to be killed if she refused to become his wife. The only reason he did not try to force her was because he knew he would instantly die due to her vows of chastity.

"The Difference Between Rama And Ravana
"See the difference between Rama and Ravana. Both were equally eminent intellectually great scholars. Ravana was a great man. Rama was a good man. The difference between greatness and goodness should be understood. Ravana, out of egoism and uncontrolled desires, misused his knowledge and brought about his ruin. Rama used his knowledge for the benefit of the people and made them happy. Ravana did not digest his knowledge properly and suffered from the consequences of indigestion. The difference between Rama and Ravana was that of between righteousness (Dharma) and unrighteousness (Adharma). Rama and Ravana are present in each human being. When a person takes to unrighteous courses, he becomes a Ravana. When people pursue the path of truth and righteousness, they become Ramas." Sai Baba, SS. 4/96, p. 93
- "Ravana was the master of the sixty-four types of knowledge, but he could not receive God's grace. Since he did not put his knowledge into practice, he suffered from 'indigestion'. That resulted in the sickness of sensual desires. Rama also learnt all the sixty-four types of knowledge and He put them into practice. Ravana was interested only in aggrandizement whereas, Rama was interested in practice." Sai Baba, SS. 11/98. p. 293"

http://sai-arjan.tripod.com/rama/rama-10.htm

But the way this site is going I will be laughed off.

Everything is Topsy turfy:
Against North India.
Against Ramayan.
Against Brahmin.
Against Hindu.

Want to limit TB to Hate everything and alienate rest of the the world. I am sad.
 
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.....As you know Ramayana is, for me, a story written in a very longish way, like the super-mega serials in tv nowadays. ....

So, when this writer wanted a very similar set-up to that of Iliad, he had to have a mainland and another land to be reached across the sea, where the hero's kidnapped wife was kept imprisoned. .
Dear Shri Sangom sir, to what extent the events depicted in Ramayana actually happened none of us can be sure. Whether or not it is merely a retelling of Illiad is pure speculation clutching on some superficial similarities. For every similarity one finds there are probably 10 differences we can point to.

In any case, whether or not Ramayana is pure fiction, whether or not it is simply a retelling of Illiad, the question is whether Ravana, as presented in Ramayana, deserves any respect. To me, this question itself is silly, the only question that should be asked is, whether Ravana, as presented in Ramayana, deserves our contempt or our utter contempt.

The story, whether true or not, is about a King who rejected all sane advice and brought ruin upon his people because of his selfish lust towards a woman who didn't want him. Whether true or not, this man used devious means to abduct a woman against her will. Whether true or not, he refused to let her go even when threatened with total annihilation because of his pride. In a sane world this character will only be looked upon as evil incarnate.

Those who express respect for this monster do so only by projecting their own narrow vision upon him. Some dravidians do this by claiming him to be a dravidian, but why would forcibly abducting a woman acceptable just because he is one among us? Some brahmins express respect because they think he was a brahmin, these people are as despicable as Ravana himself. Then there are these Shaivites who want to respect him because he was supposed to have been a devotee of Shiva. But then, did not Shiva himself apparently abandon Ravana? So, why are these Shivites not ashamed to still count Ravana as one of their own and try to whitewash his despicable ways.

Since we have no way of knowing the historical authenticity of the story we have to go by the written version extant to us. The Ravana character as available to us is a despicable one deserving of our total and unmitigated contempt. Those who want to respect him are projecting their own prejudices upon this despicable character.

Cheers!
 
I agree with Mr. Nara's post#65
Since we have no way of knowing the historical authenticity of the story we have to go by the written version extant to us. The Ravana character as available to us is a despicable one deserving of our total and unmitigated contempt. Those who want to respect him are projecting their own prejudices upon this despicable character.

I do not support an immoral person, being of same caste or from the state State is not a consideration. Impartiality in the justice system is the framework of a rational society.
 
so should a guy go to war tomorrow if the wife runs away with another man & kill the innocents in the process ???

Happens all the time, buddy! Remember the Greek epics Iliad and Odyssey. What was the premise of those again?

Regardless, I don't think Ravana coveted Sita personally. She was simply a pawn in a political battle between the North and the South.
 
and by extinction, I meant it will be sad if there comes a day when Tambrams as a race cease to exist.

Everything will cease to exist at some point, dear friend. Even the whole human species will become extinct some day. Better get used to the idea.
 
Somehow I am beginning to think Visalakshi maami is not a brahmin after all...not a real maami!! ha ha

let me pray assure you, ashwinash, visalakshi, is 100% tambram mami - well versed in bharatanatyam and a poet in her own right.

i disagree with her, occassionally on views, but i think, she is a mighty fine person, who demands everyone's respect here. if you dont mind, i think, you owe, at the least an apology, to mrs. visa.

thank you.
 
Agree with Mr Kunjuppu. If Mr Ashwin here is so sure about his own ancestry, he needs to do the right thing and remove his offending post. That will allow us to remove our posts as well.
 
You know I really don't buy into this whole theory that the Ramayana happened because Ravana lusted for Sita. There is no solid ground to believe that Sita was a jaw-dropping beauty. Of course being the heroine of the story, the authors naturally made the usual assumptions.

I think this is too big an epic to characterize it as one man/demon/whatever pursuing a woman/goddess/whatever. If you read through it, it was more like Ravana having an ego problem with Rama and the southward-moving northerners and playing a complicated game to crush them.

Sita just was a convenient person to kidnap so that Rama could be entrapped. She was held hostage so that Rama could be lured in and defeated. It just didn't turn out that way.

To those who talk about Ravana's love/lust for Sita, I have one simple question. Why didn't he force himself on to her?
 
If I have to watch brahmins bashing :brick:
I will prefer to have Ravan as its victim.:rolleyes:
He really deserves it.:high5:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Ravan is such a darling.
You know I love to sing Shiva Tandava Stotram and feel so so proudly happy knowing that Ravan dear composed it.
 
You know I really don't buy into this whole theory that the Ramayana happened because Ravana lusted for Sita. There is no solid ground to believe that Sita was a jaw-dropping beauty. Of course being the heroine of the story, the authors naturally made the usual assumptions.

I think this is too big an epic to characterize it as one man/demon/whatever pursuing a woman/goddess/whatever. If you read through it, it was more like Ravana having an ego problem with Rama and the southward-moving northerners and playing a complicated game to crush them.

Sita just was a convenient person to kidnap so that Rama could be entrapped. She was held hostage so that Rama could be lured in and defeated. It just didn't turn out that way.

To those who talk about Ravana's love/lust for Sita, I have one simple question. Why didn't he force himself on to her?

Ravan was cursed by some female ascetic that he will drop dead if he forces himself on a woman.
He needed consent thats why he was waiting.

But who knows may be he was gentleman enough to ask for consent unlike what we see in Tamil movies today..you have some bad guy chasing a female with a Thali and once he ties it by force the female meekly follows him hom cos now they are husband and wife..

why cant they make movies where the female throws that Thali away and says.."Get lost..you dont have my consent..no mantras,no Kanyadaan,no sapthapadi,No AgniSakshi..hence its not valid"
 
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