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Logical Understanding of Spirituality- II
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Vaagmi
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Sravnaji,
If it exists it has guna.
If it is bliss it is guna.
Where is your nirguna brahman?
Vaagmi
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This goes against the vedic knowledge. When you say such things authoritatively please quote your source too.
Vaagmi
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You have not yet conclusively said as to why the universe was created. But you have moved to the next question as to how it was created.
OP
OP
Let us proceed with the discussion also using our own understanding of nature so far based on various knowledge.
If creation is just an act of creating an illusion of disconnectedness, how could the disconnectedness be caused? We understand that to disconnect something a force has to be used. This is opposite to the nature of spiritual energy. So the nature of the force is in opposition to the nature of the spiritual energy.
So if one can describe the spiritual energy as existence, consciousness and bliss, one can describe the illusion creating force as one negating these three. This happens at the created reality. But since there are close natural affinities between parts of the physical reality, integration also keeps happening.
This sets up the battle royale between the spiritual energy and the illusive force at the level of the physical reality.
If creation is just an act of creating an illusion of disconnectedness, how could the disconnectedness be caused? We understand that to disconnect something a force has to be used. This is opposite to the nature of spiritual energy. So the nature of the force is in opposition to the nature of the spiritual energy.
So if one can describe the spiritual energy as existence, consciousness and bliss, one can describe the illusion creating force as one negating these three. This happens at the created reality. But since there are close natural affinities between parts of the physical reality, integration also keeps happening.
This sets up the battle royale between the spiritual energy and the illusive force at the level of the physical reality.
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Vaagmi Ji,
Nirguna is not no guna but being perfectly balanced , none in excess or deficiency. Something is a quality only when it is in excess or deficient compared to that in a state of balance.
OP
OP
Here is a consolidation of the previous posts by me in this thread:
The greatest tussle that happens in the universe is the constant one between the energies that exist in space and time and the ones that are beyond the universe. The latter do not require space and time and therefore beyond the universe. The purpose of this tussle is to project the truth of the timelessness and the unity of nature.
The first logical explanation we seek is that how do we know that energies can exist beyond space and time?
We know that mass is equivalent to energy. When two pieces of mass are joined together the resulting mass is the sum of the masses of the two pieces. But when in the case of natural affinities between energies, they synchronize and when they synchronize well synergy is produced , that is extra energy other than the energy of the two is produced. The whole becomes greater than the sum of the individual pieces.
The above concept underlies the understanding of spiritual energy, energy that can transcend space and time. When enough synchronization happens at some stage the whole become such a high energy that it is beyond the total energy of the physical universe and cannot be affected by any of them. I introduce the idea that space and time can also be energies. So when the synchronized energy transcend space and time, then it becomes spiritual energy or energy of the inner world.
To understand synergy from an example, that which occurs in our thinking, consider the following statements:
1. John is a male
2. Mary is a female
3. Males are mortal
From the statements 1 and 3 we can conclude that John is mortal though the two statements explicitly don't say that. Here synergy is at work because, you are doing more work to come to the inference that John is mortal than the total work to understand the two statements.
Now consider that someone may come to the conclusion that Mary is also mortal. What is happening here is that you are not only interconnecting what you see consciously but also premises which are at the subconscious, for example here that is there is no difference between a male and a female with regard to mortality. This is deeper and is called an intuition and the signals the starting of spiritual thinking. As you make more and more connections and get deeper, the greater is synergy which overpowers the signals from the disparate physical world and spiritual thinking happens.
In the case of syncronization between physical energies, spiritual energy begins to happen when the effect of synchronizations between physical energies is stronger than the rate at which the energies change and in the case of matter, when the effect of synchronizations is stronger than the effect of mass.
The next question is that how do we know that space and time were projected from the spiritual energy? For that we need to understand that timelessness and unity of experience is the essence of the ultimate reality. Let us consider the major alternatives(i) Universe neither had a beginning nor will have an end (ii) Space and time became realities out of nothing.
The negation of the first one is simple. If time had stretched infinitely backwards, we could not have come to the present. In other words if time is infinite it stops moving and so infinite time is a contradiction.
The negation of the second is also simple. Space and time coming out of nothing or something coming out of nothing is another logical contradiction.
Any other hypothesis in my view can be contradicted in some way. The logical explanation or at least something which cannot be contradicted is that time emerged out of timelessness but the objection how can time and timelessness exist together can be addressed by premising that time and space are lower realities and hence not absolute realities. So thinking in terms of hierarchy of realities will solve the problem.We can reasonably come to the conclusion that space and time were projected from the spiritual energy.
When we think of the purpose for the existence of physical world , we could say that it is for God who can be thought of as the ultimate spiritual energy, to have an orthogonal experience, one that is filled with tension between integrating and disintegrating energies, to that of the perfectly harmonious experience He has as pure spiritual energy.
A question may arise if the experience as pure spiritual energy is complete in itself why create physical world which will not offer a new experience? The answer attributed to the philosopher Adi Sankara is that the experience of the physical world is an illusory experience and so is different from the real experience only as pure spiritual energy.
If we accept that universe arose out of the spiritual energy which exists as one and that energy is timeless what does it say about how the universe was created? Firstly, it says what is "created" is an illusion. This is because from the point of view of the spiritual energy time is not perceived and we can conclude that if something is not perceived by the ultimate reality it is an illusion. Creation actually is the creation of illusion of disconnectedness of the spiritual energy.
If creation is just an act of creating an illusion of disconnectedness, how could the disconnectedness be caused? We understand that to disconnect something is opposite to the nature of spiritual energy which connects. The term used to describe that which disconnects or disintegrates is force. The nature of the force is in opposition to the nature of the spiritual energy.
The use of force for creation of universe suggests a big bang like process. It would seem to be a fission like because created energy keep creating more energies but with a twist. I am inclined to view this as one of projections because from the space which is everywhere certain energies would have emanated which move in 3 dimensions at a time and from the latter certain other energies would have emanated and so on till energies that move along only 1 dimension at a time are created. So we see that more and more disconnected energies are formed. The extra energies coming out due to the separation or disconnectedness are hidden initially and become perceivable in accordance with the evolved state of the perceiver.
Force being antithetical to spiritual energy, one can say force as negating existence, consciousness and bliss, which is the nature of spiritual energy. This happens at the created reality. But since there are close natural affinities between parts of the physical reality, integration also keeps happening.This sets up the battle royale between the spiritual energy and the illusive force at the level of the physical reality.
The greatest tussle that happens in the universe is the constant one between the energies that exist in space and time and the ones that are beyond the universe. The latter do not require space and time and therefore beyond the universe. The purpose of this tussle is to project the truth of the timelessness and the unity of nature.
The first logical explanation we seek is that how do we know that energies can exist beyond space and time?
We know that mass is equivalent to energy. When two pieces of mass are joined together the resulting mass is the sum of the masses of the two pieces. But when in the case of natural affinities between energies, they synchronize and when they synchronize well synergy is produced , that is extra energy other than the energy of the two is produced. The whole becomes greater than the sum of the individual pieces.
The above concept underlies the understanding of spiritual energy, energy that can transcend space and time. When enough synchronization happens at some stage the whole become such a high energy that it is beyond the total energy of the physical universe and cannot be affected by any of them. I introduce the idea that space and time can also be energies. So when the synchronized energy transcend space and time, then it becomes spiritual energy or energy of the inner world.
To understand synergy from an example, that which occurs in our thinking, consider the following statements:
1. John is a male
2. Mary is a female
3. Males are mortal
From the statements 1 and 3 we can conclude that John is mortal though the two statements explicitly don't say that. Here synergy is at work because, you are doing more work to come to the inference that John is mortal than the total work to understand the two statements.
Now consider that someone may come to the conclusion that Mary is also mortal. What is happening here is that you are not only interconnecting what you see consciously but also premises which are at the subconscious, for example here that is there is no difference between a male and a female with regard to mortality. This is deeper and is called an intuition and the signals the starting of spiritual thinking. As you make more and more connections and get deeper, the greater is synergy which overpowers the signals from the disparate physical world and spiritual thinking happens.
In the case of syncronization between physical energies, spiritual energy begins to happen when the effect of synchronizations between physical energies is stronger than the rate at which the energies change and in the case of matter, when the effect of synchronizations is stronger than the effect of mass.
The next question is that how do we know that space and time were projected from the spiritual energy? For that we need to understand that timelessness and unity of experience is the essence of the ultimate reality. Let us consider the major alternatives(i) Universe neither had a beginning nor will have an end (ii) Space and time became realities out of nothing.
The negation of the first one is simple. If time had stretched infinitely backwards, we could not have come to the present. In other words if time is infinite it stops moving and so infinite time is a contradiction.
The negation of the second is also simple. Space and time coming out of nothing or something coming out of nothing is another logical contradiction.
Any other hypothesis in my view can be contradicted in some way. The logical explanation or at least something which cannot be contradicted is that time emerged out of timelessness but the objection how can time and timelessness exist together can be addressed by premising that time and space are lower realities and hence not absolute realities. So thinking in terms of hierarchy of realities will solve the problem.We can reasonably come to the conclusion that space and time were projected from the spiritual energy.
When we think of the purpose for the existence of physical world , we could say that it is for God who can be thought of as the ultimate spiritual energy, to have an orthogonal experience, one that is filled with tension between integrating and disintegrating energies, to that of the perfectly harmonious experience He has as pure spiritual energy.
A question may arise if the experience as pure spiritual energy is complete in itself why create physical world which will not offer a new experience? The answer attributed to the philosopher Adi Sankara is that the experience of the physical world is an illusory experience and so is different from the real experience only as pure spiritual energy.
If we accept that universe arose out of the spiritual energy which exists as one and that energy is timeless what does it say about how the universe was created? Firstly, it says what is "created" is an illusion. This is because from the point of view of the spiritual energy time is not perceived and we can conclude that if something is not perceived by the ultimate reality it is an illusion. Creation actually is the creation of illusion of disconnectedness of the spiritual energy.
If creation is just an act of creating an illusion of disconnectedness, how could the disconnectedness be caused? We understand that to disconnect something is opposite to the nature of spiritual energy which connects. The term used to describe that which disconnects or disintegrates is force. The nature of the force is in opposition to the nature of the spiritual energy.
The use of force for creation of universe suggests a big bang like process. It would seem to be a fission like because created energy keep creating more energies but with a twist. I am inclined to view this as one of projections because from the space which is everywhere certain energies would have emanated which move in 3 dimensions at a time and from the latter certain other energies would have emanated and so on till energies that move along only 1 dimension at a time are created. So we see that more and more disconnected energies are formed. The extra energies coming out due to the separation or disconnectedness are hidden initially and become perceivable in accordance with the evolved state of the perceiver.
Force being antithetical to spiritual energy, one can say force as negating existence, consciousness and bliss, which is the nature of spiritual energy. This happens at the created reality. But since there are close natural affinities between parts of the physical reality, integration also keeps happening.This sets up the battle royale between the spiritual energy and the illusive force at the level of the physical reality.
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How to differentiate between actual evolution and a delusion?
OP
OP
Dear Renuka,
With respect to mental evolution, delusion is a term used by science that it is not able to explain or understand.
OP
OP
Actually it is simple. Nothing cogent or coherent comes out of a delusion. In an evolution one becomes more coherent. So there need not be any difficulty in differentiating between an actual evolution and a delusion.
Dear Sravna,
Logically....logic seems to be an illusion in this thread.
Its hard to decipher the substance when there is logically absence of a substratum here.
Depolarization of your neurons is logically not arranging its codes in a logical manner and all one sees here is the interplay of illusion presenting itself as an avalanche of impulses that leaves no imprint that can dance in the realm of logic.
Logically....logic seems to be an illusion in this thread.
Its hard to decipher the substance when there is logically absence of a substratum here.
Depolarization of your neurons is logically not arranging its codes in a logical manner and all one sees here is the interplay of illusion presenting itself as an avalanche of impulses that leaves no imprint that can dance in the realm of logic.
OP
OP
Dear Renuka,
Let me share my experiences. I have said before I occasionally get into spiritual perspectives and when that happens I happen to see everything in a different light. What seems to elude my understanding normally would be seen in a totally different perspective. I think it is mainly this perspective problem that people have trouble understanding one another.
I am now beginning to think it is ok to have different perspectives as people basically have different nature.
And finally logic is a very misused word. I have come to understand logic as meaning reason that is in accordance to one's views.
I am saying all these based on my own experiences.
OP
OP
Science tries to understand and explain the physical world and its phenomena. Science is separated into various disciplines. There is no common theme or philosophy underlying the different disciplines of science and as it is , it sees only the parts. It needs to put the pieces together and only then science can see the whole picture.
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