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Let us familiarise ourselves with Rigveda

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Dear Sri Vivek,
I have no idea what the Vedas are about. But it is probably had some meaning earlier in deriving actual knowledge - like about science, psychology etc. Otherwise, why would "veda" mean knowledge? We should also come to understand any tradition of knowledge/learning (like Vedas) based on how it can help the world actually.

There are few things about vedas and the rituals associated with them; one deals with the mundane (para) and the one beyond (apara).

Your question pertains to the mundane.
It has been claimed that the vedic mantras and vedic rituals can confer material benefits. The karma kanda portion is suppossed to have dealt with them. Rituals like agnihotra can provide periodical rains. May be there may not any effect if one of two were to perform for that too requires a critical mass. Agni alone is the carrier to the devas. All these have to be tried out once again.

We pop pills on advice of a physician, implying that he has applied his knowledge and that benefits us. We seldom probe whether a certain antibiotic prescribed by a physician will work act against a bacteria that is troubling us. Here we invest our faith in the physician.

Why can't we invest at least a little trust in vedas as well?

Hope you have some answers to your questions.

With regards,
Swami
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
I have not questioned but only enquired out of a deep feeling of anguish and helplessness that Samskrit and Vedic education could not be pursued during my youth and now out of interest I am studying related material to the best of my ability. Knowing a few mantras and chanting Gayatri and Vishnu Sahasranamam is all I can say that is within my means and ability. However I take some pride in chanting the four vedic mantras in Brahma Yagnam and Veda Arambam on Avani Avittam days, besides what is included in Sandhyopasana. I hope some benefit may occur even at this late stage, your efforts at familiaring the interested people with some Riks of Rig Veda is evoking great wonder and warm feelings of respect to you.I wish you also familiarise ourselves with important aspects of other Vedas including Yajur. Many thanks once again!
 
@ Sangom

You will observe that we have failed, from the remotest past, to preserve and pass on the real meaning of the vedas
from generation to generation. So, any effort by a large number of people to understand the meaning of the vedas will be
a desirable step; at least some people may get new insights into their meaning.

That is good. Even I read the translations many times. But let me ask when we read the English meanings of the Vedas (the second method you mentioned) what do we understand from it? Sadly, I feel "Indologists" from the British Era have ruined the meaning of such texts to prove their own propaganda like Aryan Invasion.

Hence I am not able to decide whether this thread is helpful to our members or is not liked, overall.

From my side, I have no problem sir. :)

it may be said that the vedas have no use to today's world and the mundane world in particular.

When you say this how can you be sure? Would you rather say that as our understanding of Vedas improves we can only then say what it is? One thing is we need to be ready to carry on our traditions further, but the more important thing is to enrich the meaning of our tradition and make it relevant to the future eras.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
@ SwamiTaBra

I have to make it clear that I am not speaking in a bitter hetrodoxical tone or attitude. I am merely saying we need to
rediscover the Vedas, and understand it in the way it was meant to be. Anything is this world has value to the eyes of masses only when it (sooner or later) maps itself into practicality. For example Yoga, which is practically used to relieve stress achieve higher state of thinking etc - thus its value
naturally comes.

I had given my fingerprint to the Nadi jyotisam and he could correctly tell my name (even though I have never met him)
and spoke somethings of me. It was quiet accurate I should say and I gave my thumb print only because I was curious to
know its accuracy, having heard about it. Now the people who do this claim the knowledge of Nadi came from the Vedas
- as did the knowledge of Marmam (pressure points), which can be used to paralyze, hurt, kill or even heal. These knowledge are real. If such
knowledge was deduced from Vedas in the past, it means there is a method for it.

The following question is the crux of what I am pointing to thee community - presently are we in a position to rediscover
such knowledge through the Vedas? Shouldn't this question concern us because it holds the gateway to great knowledge which could benefit mankind.

"It has been claimed that the vedic mantras and vedic rituals can confer material benefits. The karma kanda portion is suppossed to have dealt with them."

If such is the case, the outside world will make stringent remarks by asking questions like "Why can't brahmins then use Vedas to give water to all the villages?", "to remove diseases?". I am not against the brahmins (I am one myself), but the world doesn't sees our claims of the greatness of the Vedas being revealed actually. This is the reason our tradition is reduced as being superstitious, irrelevant by many. Things like Yoga are good and its a respected tradition world-wide, but there are other things for which brahmins are considered superstitious. And people to voice such revile and mockery are none other than DMK, anti-brahminists. Ask yourself if my analysis is not relevant to how we are viewed as a community.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Dear Sri Vivek,

Also look at the problems at hand:

a) the interpretation of vedas itself is quite varied even with the extant materials.
b) the vedas are supposed to represent the anadi, the limitless and it cannot be compressed within books by the human mind.
c) we get to see to only a few portion of the vedas.
d) the rishi Bharadwaja is supposed to have taken several births to complete the study of vedas and he ultimately gave up as he found them to be inexhaustible.

Even it were mythical, we do get an indication that there can be constant/periodical unravelling of newer truths, which the modern scientists seem to be realising.

Even as we are awestruck, we can make an earnest attempt to decipher what is there in vedas using the tools at our disposal.

If such is the case, the outside world will make stringent remarks by asking questions like "Why can't brahmins then use Vedas to give water to all the villages?", "to remove diseases?". I am not against the brahmins (I am one myself), but the world doesn't sees our claims of the greatness of the Vedas being revealed actually. This is the reason our tradition is reduced as being superstitious, irrelevant by many. Things like Yoga are good and its a respected tradition world-wide, but there are other things for which brahmins are considered superstitious. And people to voice such revile and mockery are none other than DMK, anti-brahminists. Ask yourself if my analysis is not relevant to how we are viewed as a community.

To expect the brahmins to perform all the yagnas and other rituals for the general good in the condition in which the continuity with the tradition has almost snapped will be grossly unfair. A researcher,or an university professor is provided scholarship, fellowship and all the facilities to carry out his intended research. But no support structure exists for brahmins to carry out the functions that they performed even some generations back.


Superstitions are undesirable, but are impossible to avoid completely. Superstitions abound in almost every sphere of life, not just in religious matters.

Every rationalist has an idol, and also dogma which invariably amongst others is the infallibility of his logic. DKs ideologies no longer holds sway amongst the masses for people know intuitively that humans are not the ultimate controller of destinies. DMK party has stopped talking about atheism, for the same reason and also anti-brahminism no longer offers electoral dividends.

With regards,
Swami
 
@ Sangom

You will observe that we have failed, from the remotest past, to preserve and pass on the real meaning of the vedas
from generation to generation. So, any effort by a large number of people to understand the meaning of the vedas will be
a desirable step; at least some people may get new insights into their meaning.

That is good. Even I read the translations many times. But let me ask when we read the English meanings of the Vedas (the second method you mentioned) what do we understand from it? Sadly, I feel "Indologists" from the British Era have ruined the meaning of such texts to prove their own propaganda like Aryan Invasion.

Hence I am not able to decide whether this thread is helpful to our members or is not liked, overall.

From my side, I have no problem sir. :)

it may be said that the vedas have no use to today's world and the mundane world in particular.

When you say this how can you be sure? Would you rather say that as our understanding of Vedas improves we can only then say what it is? One thing is we need to be ready to carry on our traditions further, but the more important thing is to enrich the meaning of our tradition and make it relevant to the future eras.

Regards,
Vivek.

Shri Vivek,

I do not think the Europeans, all of them, were interested in propounding the AIT or belittling the indigenous commentators, of whom only Sayana's work is now available commonly. There are also several books - some of which you can get to read partly through 'google books' - which give you different perspectives. Of course, I can understand that a young person with job responsibilities may not be able to devote much time to these tasks. Still you have your entire life before you and by small but steady steps it will be possible to acquire good knowledge in 5 or 10 years I would say.

When I say that vedas may not have any use to today's world, what I mean is that due to the enormous and enviable progress which the physical sciences have achieved, the path of enquiry into fundamental truths have now become a province of such science and the contemplative, religio-mythical, route is no longer preferred. The vedas may have some truths in them but, looking at the undeveloped state of their astronomy,
we can conclude that the vedic people's was not an advanced civilization. Hence, there may not be much that will be of use to the world today. It will definitely be an evergreen subject for research in various aspects, most importantly the metrical perfection which the vedic bards were adept at. But such research is not likely, IMHO, to bring out any new findings of earth-shaking scientific value.

When we talk of "yoga" nowadays we are looking at a mixture - rather curious, at that - of the yoga darsana of Patanjali which concerned itself purely with control of mind, with the Hathayoga tradition which promised health, longevity, etc., by systematic twisting, turning, curling, etc., of the body. This mixture has somehow found wide marketability, particularly in the West and hence our elite also have taken a special liking to it. It has thus acquired more credit and fame than what its due is, I feel.

Thank you and Shri Kahanam for saying positive opinions about this thread.
 
@ Sri SwamiTaBra

"Even as we are awestruck, we can make an earnest attempt to decipher what is there in vedas using the tools at our disposal."

Yes, I like such an effort.

"To expect the brahmins to perform all the yagnas and other rituals for the general good in the condition in which the continuity with the tradition has almost snapped will be grossly unfair. A researcher,or an university professor is provided scholarship, fellowship and all the facilities to carry out his intended research. But no support structure exists for brahmins to carry out the functions that they performed even some generations back."

I think you misunderstood what I said. The questions I put in quotes about solving water situation or diseases, are the rhetorical questions the world would ask us (brahmins) when we claim the Vedas are the source of all the knowledge.

The point I am making is we aren't able to attest the supposed greatness of the Vedas, when we aren't using it to solve any of the world's practical problems (this is why I spoke of Yoga, as what is expected).

Whether a person is a rationalist or whatever becomes less important for people to know, when his 4-stroke engine or electronic chip is working - the knowledge he has becomes relevant and automatically gains respect as a man of knowledge.

Another thing I said was that our tradition clearly shows that knowledge has been derived from Vedas (as per traditional claims), and that if this was indeed true there would have been a method of such a deduction. What support structure are you exactly speaking about?

"DKs ideologies no longer holds sway amongst the masses for people know intuitively that humans are not the ultimate controller of destinies. DMK party has stopped talking about atheism, for the same reason and also anti-brahminism no longer offers electoral dividends."

That is nice to know. But Aryan Invasion is still taught in school, isn't it?

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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@ Sri Sangomji

"I do not think the Europeans, all of them, were interested in propounding the AIT or belittling the indigenous commentators, of whom only Sayana's work is now available commonly. There are also several books - some of which you can get to read partly through 'google books' - which give you different perspectives."

Yes it is true that not all Europeans were propounding the AIT. I have read of the AIT and how it has numerous flaws and was basically fabricated in a propaganda spirit by the British and German empires. But the fact still remains that its taught in academics right from school level to history degrees. I could separately discuss the way groups use this AIT in another thread (or here, if you specifically ask me to).

"When I say that vedas may not have any use to today's world, what I mean is that due to the enormous and enviable progress which the physical sciences have achieved, the path of enquiry into fundamental truths have now become a province of such science and the contemplative, religio-mythical, route is no longer preferred."

Okay, you mean it that way. I think we should try and understand the method of deducing knowledge from the Vedas, and study that method.
"When we talk of "yoga" nowadays we are looking at a mixture - rather curious, at that - of the yoga darsana of Patanjali which concerned itself purely with control of mind, with the Hathayoga tradition which promised health, longevity, etc., by systematic twisting, turning, curling, etc., of the body. This mixture has somehow found wide marketability, particularly in the West and hence our elite also have taken a special liking to it."
But the breathing techniques and all have proved benficial to many. The underlying point of my post was that we shouldn't just stand and accept that something like the Vedas have only relevance in rituals. The present day world has numerous problems and if indeed Vedas are a storehouse of knowledge, we should understand how to bring it to actually helping the world - only then will our tradition gain respect, and at the same time it will be useful. Until that time the staunchest DMK supporters, and other anti-brahminists will only use every opportunity to mock our tradition as being anti-intellectual and superstitious.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
Saddens me to a very great that this thread has to come to an abrupt end due to Shri Sangom's decision to quit his contribution.

Regards
Revathi
 
Shri Vivek

Nice thoughts of yours which I actually concur with.

There is something called Knowledge and there is another thing called Application of Knowledge.

When there is so much misery in the world , so many issues, natural calamities, diseases, famine, flood etc, the immediate thought that comes to my generation - am in late 30s - is - how does this knowledge going to solve these human miseries?

But as a first step, to either believe or to counter (either way) those who make claims that India had solutions even thousands of years back in the form of Vedas and scriptures,I was not able to do so because of my utter lack of knowledge in all these - In history books we were taught only the names of Four Vedas!

Towards this goal, I really thought Shri Sangom Sir did a great Service.But unfortunately, it has come to an end.

Regards
Revathi
 
Mrs.Ganeshrev,
I also feel sad about this development.Mr.TNKesavan is posting about Vedas,Manusmriti and other topics in tamil in the thread"Thought For
The day","Points to ponder"Since I know Tamil I am able to follow his postings.It would have been nice if he gives his postings in English as
was done by Mr.Brahmanyan in his latest posting about a Book on 'Four Vedas' by Shri.Jambunathan
 
@ Shri Ganeshrev

Thank you. You put it very nicely as "Knowledge" and "Application of Knowledge" - that is exactly the point. In the past many centuries Western civilzation has taken over in being the pioneers, inventors and builders of this modern world because while we were too concerned with ritualistic things, and they were driven with the interest to explore, take risks and see things practically. We need to also focus on the practical use of knowledge. On thing we have done good is that as a community we have saved our tradition since a very long time - it is not something all communities on the Earth have been able to do.

Some years ago (in Orkut), an anti-brahminist zealot asked me "What were brahmins doing when Turkish invaders came with guns and cannons?". His question was without a doubt put to rebuke brahmins, but it could also be considered a valid question. We have traditionally been placed as the highest strata of our country, so obviously the fall of our civilization becomes a thing for us to answer.

Thus, I believe it becomes imperative for us today to try and solve problems of the country actively and make this duty the official purpose of our brahmin community.

I feel I have to apologize for diverting this thread. I would like Sri Sangomji to continue his contribution of translating and interpretting verses of the Vedas. Maybe we can start another thread, like "Challenges for the brahmin community" (or any other name) to discuss the issue I had started.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
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Shri Vivek
Thanks. Shri Sangom may not join back (Not because of your questions - but due to other developments)


Please do start seperate threads.Meanwhile, there are many old threads you may want to look at for similar topics...

Regards
Revathi
 
Dear Sri Sangom,

The vedas may have some truths in them but, looking at the undeveloped state of their astronomy,
we can conclude that the vedic people's was not an advanced civilization.
Whether vedic civilization was advanced in astronomy is something I'm ignorant. But certainly in areas of astronomy we were far ahead of the rest during the latter periods. In fact much of what was gained in the west was widely believed to have been transmitted by the Arabs from India. Even in the decline-- in the medieval periods-- Indians have made substantial contribution, particularly Kerala.
I'm reproducing some material taken from introduction in one of the paper on Kerala's astronomy.

"It is widely recognised that the Kerala school of Indian Astronomy, starting with Madhava of Sangamagrama, in the 14th century made important contribution to the mathematical analysis much before the subject developed in Europe. The Kerala astronomers derived infinite series for pi, sine and cosine function and also developed fast convergent approximation to them....

Madhava's disciple Parameswara of Vataserri (1380-1460) is reputed to have made continuous and careful observation for a period of over 55 years. He is famous as the originator of Drigganita system, which replaced the old Parahita system
."


Also some valuable material are cited in the book:
A Bibliography of Kerala and Kerala based Astronomy & Astrology
by K.V.Sarma, Hoshiarpur 1966

with regards,
Swami
 
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It is learnt from history that the Peshawe of Maharashtra were Brahmins. Peshwe were warriers, and have won many battles.
VPK
 
Smt. Revathi, Shri Athreya, Shri Krishnamurthy and other members,

I am glad to be back among you. I will try my best to do justice to the topic of this thread and towards this objective, I seek your kind co-operation and encouragement if my posts deserve it.

I shall try to answer the points raised by some of you, one by one in due course - give me some time.

In the meanwhile I now continue with the next mantra, the one in praise of śukra.

navagraha sūkta - śukra

The mantra for śukra comes next after that for aṅgāraka or mars.

indrāṇī and indra are supposed to be the adhidevata and pratyadhidevata for this planetary deity.

Some texts indicate "indramarutva" as the pratyadhidevata for śukra. If this is right, the mantra, "indramarutva iha pāhi somam..." which forms part of the mantra in praise of bṛhaspati (Jupiter) should have been included in this mantra. Once again, this indicates a job not well-done, I feel.

ऋषि: - वसिष्ठः मैत्रावरुणिः । छन्दः - त्रिष्टुप् । दॆवता - अग्निः

ருஷி - வஸிஷ்ட: மைத்ராவருணி: | சந்தஸ் - த்ரிஷ்டுப் | தேவதா - அக்னி:

ṛṣi: - vasiṣṭhaḥ maitrāvaruṇiḥ | chandaḥ - triṣṭup | devatā - agniḥ

प्र वः शुक्राय भानवे भरध्वम् हव्यम् मतिं चाग्नये सुपूतम् ।
यॊ दैव्यानि मानुषा जनूँष्यन्तर्विश्वानि विद्मना जिगाति। ऋ. वॆ. ७. ४. १

ப்ரவ:சுக்ராய பானவே பரத்வம் |
ஹவ்யம் மதிம் சாக்நயே ஸுபூதம் |
யோ தைவ்யாநி மாநுஷா ஜநூம் ஷி |
அந்தர்விச்வானி வித்ம நா ஜிகாதி| ரு. வே. ௭. ௪. ௧

pravaśśukrāya bhānave bharadhvam |
havyam matiṃ cāgnaye supūtam |
yo daivyāni mānuṣā janūm̐ ṣi |
antarviśvāni vidma nā jigāti| ṛ. ve. 7. 4. 1

O ṛtviks! prepare pure havis and prayers to that bright and resplendent agni, who reaches verything in this world and in the heavens, knowing their inner essence, and carries the oblations (made into fire) by men to the gods.

Note:

This ṛk has no connection at all with the planet venus (śukra) except the coincidence that the word śukra appears in it. But the meaning of this word śukra in ṛgvedic times was bright, resplendent, etc., and it later morphed into śukḷa in sanskrit - probably after it came to be applied to the planet and its deity. It is actually addressed to agni, as per the traditional records themselves.

This is another proof to show that the concept of navagraha is a very late entrant into hindu religious lore and, the priesthood, unable to find any relevant hymn in the ṛgveda praying to the planetary deity venus, made a hotch-potch "sūkta" so as to convince the ignorant masses that everything is in the vedas.

ऋषिः - इन्द्रः । छन्दः - पङ्क्तिः । दॆवता - इन्द्रः ।

ருஷி - இந்த்ர | சந்தஸ் - பங்க்தி | தேவதா - இந்த்ர: |

ṛṣiḥ - indraḥ | chandaḥ - paṅktiḥ | devatā - indraḥ |

इन्द्राणीमासु नारिषु सुपत्नीमहमश्रवम् ।
नह्यस्या अपरंचन जरसा मरते पतिः । ऋ. वॆ. १०.८६.११

இந்த்ராணீம் ஆஸு நாரிஷு ஸுபத்நீமஹமச்ரவம் |
நஹ்யஸ்யா அபரம்சந ஜரஸா மரதே பதி: | ரு. வே. ௰.௮௬.௧௧

indrāṇīm āsu nāriṣu supatnīmahamaśravam |
nahyasyā aparaṃcana jarasā marate patiḥ |
ṛ. ve. 10.86.11

This ṛk is part of what the vedic scholars call vṛṣākapi sūkta. In this verse indra admires (extols) indrāṇī . He says, "I have heard that indrāṇī is the most famous among auspicious women; indra is not affected by old age and decay, and he does not die. indra who is the husband of indrāṇī is (therefore) above the entire universe."

ऋषिः - मधुच्छन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः।

ருஷி: - மதுச்சந்தா: வைச்வாமித்ர: | சந்த: - காயத்ரீ| தேவதா - இந்த்ர:|

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ|

इन्द्रं वॊ विश्वतस्परि हवामहे जनेभ्यः ।
अस्माकमस्तु केवलः ॥ ऋ. वे. १.७.१०

இந்த்ரம் வோ விச்வதஸ்பரி ஹவாமஹே ஜநேப்ய: |
அஸ்மாகமஸ்து கேவலஃ || ரு. வே. ௧.௭.௰

indraṃ vo viśvataspari havāmahe janebhyaḥ |
asmākamastu kevalaḥ || ṛ. ve. 1.7.10

I invite indra who is above this world, on behalf of all of us.
May he become the most bounteous towards us.
 
Dear Shri.Sangom,
I am extremely happy to see Mr.Kunjuppu and yourself back in this forum.I think all the members should thank Mr.Praveen, Super Moderator Mr.KRS and others who were instrumental in bringing back both the members.
Their postings are always knowledge based and their experience based.Their contributions add colour and quality to this Forum.
 
Shri Sangom Sir,

Glad that you have come back to the forum

I look forward to your insightful posts reg Rigvedas as well as other topics as well

Namaskarams
Revathi
 
navagraha sūkta - soma (Moon)


The adhidevatā and pratyadhidevatā for soma are ap (water) and gaurī.


ऋषि: - गॊतमः राहूगणः (सायण - राहूगणः गॊतम: । छन्दः - गायत्री । दॆवता - सॊम: (सोमः पवमान:


आप्यायस्व समेतुते विश्वतस्सोम वृष्ण्यम् ।

भवा वाजस्य संगथे ॥ ऋ. वे. १.९१.१६, ९.३१.४

ருஷி - கோதம ராஹுகண: (ஸாயணர் பாஷ்யப்படி ராஹுகண கோதம: | சந்தஸ் - காயத்ரீ | தேவதை - ஸோம: {ஸோம: பவமான:}


ஆப்யாயஸ்வ ஸமேதுதே விச்வதஸ்ஸோம வ்ருஷ்ண்யம் |

பவா வாஜஸ்ய ஸம்கதே || ரு. வே. ௧.௯௧.௧௬, ௯.௩௧.௪

ṛṣi: - gotama rāhugaṇaḥ (sāyaṇa - rāhugaṇa gotama: | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - soma: {soma: pavamāna:}


āpyāyasva sametute viśvatassoma vṛṣṇyam |

bhavā vājasya saṃgathe || ṛ. ve. 1.91.16, 9.31.4

As shown above, this ṛk appears in the ṛgveda twice without any change. The ṛṣi: and chandaḥ are, naturally the same, but the devata is soma in RV 1.91.16 while it is soma: pavamaana: in RV 9.31.4. It is an accepted fact the entire Book 9 contains verses relating to soma: pavamaana: and the purification of soma for sacrifice. The latter is 'soma being purified' or 'soma the purified (by straining)' and obviously applies to the divine herb soma and the juice of the same name which was considered the favourite drink of indra and other devatas. But the whole hymn (sūkta) 1.91 depicts soma as the herb, juice as also the shining orb by night. This gives ground for the conclusion that soma was the name of the herb and the juice to begin with, and that name got applied to the moon also at some subsequent period, and that probably, the vedic ṛṣis were perfectly at ease in applying the name to both at the same time, as exemplified by the hymn 1.91. On that vein, soma became the god of herbs also, perhaps.


As to repetitions in ṛgveda, that itself is a fascinating topic, which I will try to deal with after completing this navagrahasūkta.


The meaning of this verse is as given below:


O soma! May thee grow: may thy strength, power, also increase and always remain with you. Having grown and with increased vigour, may thee provide us with bountiful food.


ऋषिः - मेधातिथि: काण्वः । छन्दः - अनुष्टुप् । दॆवता - आपः


अप्सु मे सॊमो अब्रवीतन्तर्विश्वानि भॆषजा ।

अग्निञ्च विशवशम्भुवमापश्च विश्वभॆषजीः ॥ ऋ. वे. १.२३.२०

ருஷி - மேதாதிதி: காண்வ: | சந்தஸ் - அனுஷ்டுப் | தேவதை - ஆப:


அப்ஸு மே ஸோமோ அப்ரவீதந்தர்விச்வாநி பேஷஜா |

அக்நிஞ்ச விச்வசம்புவமாபச்ச விச்வப்பேஷஜீஃ || ரு. வே. ௧.௨௩.௨0

ṛṣiḥ - medhātithi: kāṇvaḥ | chandaḥ - anuṣṭup | devatā - āpaḥ


apsu me somo abravītantarviśvāni bheṣajā |

agniñca viśavaśambhuvamāpaśca viśvabheṣajīḥ || R.V. 1.23.20

This ṛk appears almost fully as R.V. 10.9.6 also, with the ending words "āpaśca viśvabheṣajīḥ" omitted. (Hence the metre becomes gāyatrī .) In that hymn the ṛṣiḥ is given - in kātyāyana’s sarvānukramaṇī as "triśirāḥ tvāṣṭraḥ or sindhudvīpaḥ āmbarīṣaḥ" and the devata, of course is āpaḥ. This shows that the vedic ṛṣis depended on one another, borrowing, copying, altering, each other's hymns and utilising them. To me it even seems possible that the different composers had learnt certain "core" ṛks or sūktas and utilised them in composing their own, more elaborate hymns. For people with a knack for research, it may be worthwhile to search for this "core" of the ṛgveda.


Now, for the meaning: soma and all the waters (āpaḥ) told me that all the medicines are present in waters, that agni who bestows all comforts to the world is (also) present in waters.


ऋषि: - दीर्घतमा: औचथ्यः । छन्दः - जगती । देवता - वागापः ।


गौरीर्मिमाय सलिलानि तक्षत्येकपदी द्विपदी सा चतुष्पदी ।

अष्टापदी नवपदी बभूवुषी सहस्राक्षरा परमे व्योमन् ॥ ऋ. वे. १.१६४.४१

ருஷி - தீர்கதமா: ஔசத்ய: | சந்தஸ் - ஜகதீ | தேவதை - வாகாப:


கௌரீர்மிமாய ஸலிலாநி தக்ஷத்யேகபதீ த்விபதீ ஸா சதுஷ்பதீ |

அஷ்டாபதீ நவபதீ பபூவுஷீ ஸஹஸ்ராக்ஷரா பரமே வ்யோமந் ॥ ரு. வே. ௧.௧௬௪.௪௧

ṛṣi: - dīrghatamā: aucathyaḥ | chandaḥ - jagatī | devatā - vāgāpaḥ |


gaurīrmimāya salilāni takṣatyekapadī dvipadī sā catuṣpadī |

aṣṭāpadī navapadī babhūvuṣī sahasrākṣarā parame vyoman ||

As may be seen from the description of the devatā, namely "vāgāpaḥ", this verse is supposed to be addressed to both the deities vāk as vell as āpaḥ (word and waters). It is my opinion that even by the time of the sarvānukramaṇī, which is dated at around the 2nd. century B.C., the people had lost much of the clear perceptions about the ṛgveda and hence this choice of devatas and, in other cases, of ṛṣis as well. In accordance with the two devatas, there are two different meanings are given.


1. With "vāk" as devatā:


That vāk endowed with soft sound, in its form of "śabdabrahma", embedded itself in the "dhātus" or layers, and of itself became sentence. It was ’ekapadī’ as praṇava, 'dvipadī’ in the form of subantaḥ and tiṅṅantaḥ (two grammar-only terms of pāṇini), 'catuṣpadī ' in the form of noun, verb, preposition and particle, 'aṣṭāpadī ' as the vibhaktis (including sambodhanā vibhakti), navapadī itself alongwith the eight vibhaktis, and then into very many words and spreads all over the heavens (sky).


2. With "āpaḥ" as devatā:


Here the word "gaurī:" is not separately explained by sāyaṇa in the context of 'waters'. But "salilāni" is denoted as rain waters whereas this is overlooked in the vāk-version (given at 1 above). This itself shows, according to me, some uncertainty about the actual meaning of this ṛk.


’mimāya’ is explained as 'makes sound, noise'. And so, the meaning is as follows:


The rain waters make sound and is ’ekapadī’ as the water in the rainclouds, 'dvipadī’ as the water in the clouds and sky,'catuṣpadī and 'aṣṭāpadī ' as waters reaching the cardinal directions and that along with the mid-angles (NE, SW, NW and SE),and navapadī with the eight diks and the zenith. Then it grows thousands of times and fills the entire sky.


Both these meanings seem to me as contrived. It will be a good exercise for scholars to look into this.


"takṣ" means to cut, to chisel, to pare, to split and "salila" means water. Hence I feel there is an underlying theme of some gaurī (meaning 'fair', 'whitish') hitting or splitting water, making noise. From that, the vedic ṛṣi goes on to describe ’ekapadī’, 'dvipadī’,'catuṣpadī , 'aṣṭāpadī ' and 'navapadī ' and then says it becomes many and fills the entire sky. This might therefore be a description of some natural phenomenon. To my mind it looks like a description of some very high and powerful waterfall.


It will be a good exercise for scholars to look into this.
 
Thanks to Sri. Sangom for rejoining the forum along with Sri. Kunjuppu in response to our requests. Many thanks to the kindness in continuing the valuable Rig Veda Mantras and meanings!
 
[FONT=&quot]Navagraha sūkta - budha[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]adhidevatā - viṣṇu: | pratyadhidevatā - nārayaṇa:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]उद्बुध्यस्वाग्ने प्रतिजागृह्येनमिष्टापूर्तॆ सग्ँसृजॆथामयञ्च ।[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]पुनः कृण्वग्ग्‌स्त्वा पितरं युवानमन्वाताग्ँसीत्त्वयि तन्तुमॆतम् ॥[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]உத்புத்த்யஸ்வாக்னே ப்ரதி ஜாக்ருஹ்யேனம் இஷ்டாபூர்த்தே ஸக்ம்ஸ்ருஜேதாம் அயம்ச [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]புன: க்ருண்வக்குஸ்த்வா பிதரம் யுவானம் அன்வாதாகும்ஸீத்த்வயி தந்தும் ஏதம் [/FONT][FONT=&quot]||[/FONT]

udbudhyasvāgne pratijāghyenamiṣṭāpūrte sagm̐sjethāmayañca |
puna
kṛṇvaggstvā pitara yuvānamanvātāgm̐sīttvayi tantumetam ||

[FONT=&quot]This mantra forms part of the 13th. hymn of the 7th. prapāṭhaka of the 4th kāṇḍa (4.7.13) of the taittireeya kRuShNayajurveda. 4.7.11 is the concluding portion of the very famous 'camakapraśnam’, the next deals with the 'vasordhārā' and the 'vājaprasavīya' mantras. The one in which this mantra reportedly for budha, is in the hymn for repiling of the fire altar; hymn 14 relates to a special arrangement of bricks in the sacrificial altar called vihavya bricks and then hymn 15 deals with the aśvamedha or horse sacrifice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is in praise of agni. I don't have the ṛṣiḥ - chandaḥ - devatā in my copy of the yajurveda samhita. But it seems to me that this is in the nicṛdgāyatrī chandas, same as the gāyatrī mantra recited daily. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The meaning of this mantra is:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][[/FONT][FONT=&quot]उद्बुद्ध [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- awakened, budded, appeared[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]जागृही [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- awake, be watchful[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]एनम् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இவனை[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]इष्टापूर्त [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- filled up or stored up sacrificial rites, merits of sacrificial rites stored up in heaven[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]सम् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- along with, together[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]संसृज् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- shoot or throw with, letting loose, emitting, hurling, casting, creating, producing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]अयम् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இதை[/FONT][FONT=&quot]][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Awake, O Agni; be awake and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]watchful for this ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]एनम् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இவனை[/FONT][FONT=&quot], இவனைக் கவனி[/FONT][FONT=&quot]);[/FONT][FONT=&quot]With this [/FONT][FONT=&quot][[/FONT][FONT=&quot]अयम् [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இதை [/FONT][FONT=&quot](வைத்துக்கொண்டு)] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do thou create[/FONT][FONT=&quot] iṣṭāpūrttam (இஷ்டாபூர்த்தம், அதாவது யாகம் செய்வதால் உண்டாகும் பயன், புண்ணியம் - எவைகள் என்னைச் சுவர்க்கத்தில் கொண்டுபோகுமோ அவைகள்)[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Making thee, his father, young again[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]He hath stretched over thee this covering.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The actual meaning is not clear even if one reads the whole hymn consisting of 14 individual mantras, which form part of the offering of soma – the drink – to the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ś[/FONT][FONT=&quot]vins, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]except that all of them put together form exhortations to agni, the fire-god, to grow and make the sacrifice complete. budha, the planetary deity, does not appear at all in this mantra, and only the sound “buddhyasva” has been made use of to say that this mantra is for budha! This is a very good example of how the common folks who are ignorant of the vedas and their meanings (due to lack of knowledge of sanskrit) could be fooled into believing and following religiously (pun intended) anything which the priesthood said.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ऋषिः [/FONT][FONT=&quot]- मॆधातिथि: काण्व । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - विष्णुः[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]इदम् विष्णुर्विचक्रमे त्रॆधा निदधे पदम् ।[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]समूढमस्य पाग्ंसुरे ॥ ऋ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. वे. १. २२.१७[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ṛṣiḥ - medhātithi: kāṇva | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - viṣṇuḥ[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]idam viṣṇurvicakrame tredhā nidadhe padam |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]samūḍhamasya pāgṃsure || ṛ. ve. 1. 22.17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]According to the traditional commentary, this ṛk talks about the three famous foot-steps of viṣṇu alluded to in the later v[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ā[/FONT][FONT=&quot]manāvatāra. However, its actual word-meaning is:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"viṣṇu walked around (crossed) 'this' (idam [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இதம்[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) three times[/FONT][FONT=&quot]with his footsteps; concluded (inferred) are in his dusty."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Applying a bit of interpretation, we may say, "viṣṇu walked around (crossed) 'this' earth (idam [/FONT][FONT=&quot]இதம்[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) three times[/FONT][FONT=&quot]with his footsteps; his dusty feet are the evidence (for that)."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Though the mytho-religious aspect of the later, purāṇic, tradition has been thrown back on this ṛgvedic verse, as stated earlier. But an unbiased look at the picture of viṣṇu depicted by ṛgveda as a whole will reveal him as no more than a friend and ally of indra. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]viṣṇu is described as traveling around the earth thrice, and this one incident has been repeatedly referred to in several hymns. RV 6.49.13 puts it thus:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]यो रजांसि विममे पार्थिवानि[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]त्रिश्चिद्विष्णुर् मनवे बाधिताय[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]तस्यते शर्मन्नुपदद्यमाने[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]रायामदेम तन्वातनाच[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]யோ ரஜாம்ஸி விமமே பார்திவானி[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]த்ரிஸ்சித்விஷ்ணுர் மனவே பாதிதாய[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]தஸ்ய தே சர்மன்னுபபத்யமானே[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ராயா மதேம தன்வாதனா ச[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]yo rajāṃsi vimame pārthivāni[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]triścidviṣṇur manave bādhitāya[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]tasyate śarmannupadadyamāne-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]rāyāmadema tanvātanāca[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here vishnu is stated as having traversed this earthly spaces ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]पार्थिवानि[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]three times, for the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]मनु [/FONT][FONT=&quot]who was distressed ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]बाधिताय[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yhere is no reference to the three "worlds" here. The subject of how vishnu, a mere ally of indra in the rigveda, getting very few hymns in his praise, later metamorphosed into the supreme godhead itself, measured the three worlds with three mere steps of his, etc., requires a separate post by itself. It is a good example of how our religion is man-made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]विष्णो रराटमसि विष्णॊः पृष्ठमसि विष्णोश्श्नप्त्रैस्थो विष्णोस्स्यूरसि विष्णोर्ध्रुवमसि वैष्णवमसि विष्णवे त्वा ॥[/FONT][FONT=&quot] --- शुक्ळ यजुर्वेद - वाजसनेयि संहिता ५.२१[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thou art the forehead of viṣṇu; thou art the back of viṣṇu.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ye two are the corners' of viṣṇu's mouth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thou art the thread of viṣṇu.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thou art the fixed point of viṣṇu.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thou art of viṣṇu; to viṣṇu thee![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] --Translation by A.B. Keith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Note: I am not able to verify whether the meaning "two corners of the mouth" given to the word "śnaptra" is correct.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Because this appears in the śukḷa yajurveda, perhaps the equating of narayana with vishnu can be accepted.[/FONT]
 
Rg Veda

Shri Sangomji - Sahasrakothi namaskaaram for the great service. I will follow the same with interest. You observe that 4 out of 5 branches have disappeared including 'AsvalAyana'. I would like to know whether all 'AsvalAyanas' belong to Rg vedic traditions to perform rites. In my abhivAdaye, I mention that I belong to 'AsvalAyana Sutra'. The purohits call out particularly during combined UpAkarma (whenever Rg and Yajur upakarma occur the same day), the people following 'AsvalAyana Sutra' separate. Whether this is different from what you observe. Obviously, some mantras are different for them. I am sorry if I am interrupting your flow or annoying you in between. I have heard 'Shukla' Yajurvedis and 'Krishna' Yajurvedis only in North India and again, more or less, shukla Yajurvedis are shaivites and krishna Yajurvedis are vaishnavites.
 
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Shri Sangomji - Sahasrakothi namaskaaram for the great service. I will follow the same with interest. You observe that 4 out of 5 branches have disappeared including 'AsvalAyana'. I would like to know whether all 'AsvalAyanas' belong to Rg vedic traditions to perform rites. In my abhivAdaye, I mention that I belong to 'AsvalAyana Sutra'. The purohits call out particularly during combined UpAkarma (whenever Rg and Yajur upakarma occur the same day), the people following 'AsvalAyana Sutra' separate. Whether this is different from what you observe. Obviously, some mantras are different for them. I am sorry if I am interrupting your flow or annoying you in between. I have heard 'Shukla' Yajurvedis and 'Krishna' Yajurvedis only in North India and again, more or less, shukla Yajurvedis are shaivites and krishna Yajurvedis are vaishnavites.
Shri Iyyarooraan,

There was a mistake in my first post. It was caused by my misreading of the Malayalam "vyaakhyaanam". I am sorry for this. It has been clarified in post # 25. Kindly refer to that also.

āśvalāyana was definitely one sage who compiled the ṛgveda and it was known as the āśvalāyana śākhā of the ṛgveda. This śākhā is still available and studied by Namboodiris of Kerala, though the śākala branch has, somehow, become the standard or vulgate text.

The āśvalāyana sūtra (śrauta, gṛhya) are what are referred to in the abhivādaye and upākarma. Those texts are also very much there and all rites as prescribed by āśvalāyana sūtra are performed (of course, with changes necessitated by time) according to those rules.

I hope you may already be aware that there are many gotras which follow the āśvalāyana sūtra, and, on the other hand āśvalāyana gotra people following other sūtras like āpastamba, laugākṣi, kātyāyana, bodhāyana, etc.

 
navagraha sūkta - bṛhaspati

adhidevatā - brahmā | pratyadhidevatā - indra:


ऋषि: - गृत्समदः भार्गवः शौनकः । छन्दः - त्रिष्टुप् ।दॆवता - बृहस्पतिः

बृहस्पते अतियदर्यो अर्हाद्‌द्युमद्विभाति क्रतुमज्जनॆषु ।
यद्दीदयच्चवसऋतप्रजात तदस्मासु द्रविणं धेहि चित्रम् ॥ ऋ. वे. २.२३.१५

ருஷி - க்ருத்ஸமத: பார்கவ: சௌனக: | சந்தஸ் - த்ரிஷ்டுப் | தேவதை - ப்ருஹஸ்பதி

ப்ருஹஸ்பதே அதியதர்யோ அர்ஹாத்‌த்யுமத்விபாதி க்ரதுமஜ்ஜனேஷு |
யத்தீதயச்சவஸருதப்ரஜாத ததஸ்மாஸு த்ரவிணம் தேஹி சித்ரம் || ரு. வே. ௨.௨௩.௧௫

ṛṣi: - gṛtsamadaḥ bhārgavaḥ śaunakaḥ | chandaḥ - triṣṭup |devatā - bṛhaspatiḥ

bṛhaspate atiyadaryo arhād–dyumadvibhāti kratumajjaneṣu |
yaddīdayaccavasaṛtaprajāta tadasmāsu draviṇaṃ dhehi citram || R.V. 2.23.15

The simple meaning of this verse will be like this-

O bṛhaspati who is born out of truth ! bestow excellent (extraordinary) wealth, power and strength on us, highly noble people who shine by means of their (own) superiority, and perform yajnas (sacrifices) which shine like the (sun-lit) sky.

But it is relevant to mention in this contetxt that sāyaṇa says arya means noble brahmin. I reproduce sāyaṇa’s commentary in full below:


ऋतप्रजात सत्येनोत्पन्न हे बृहस्पते अर्यः श्रेष्ठो ब्राह्मणः सर्वान् कामान् अतीत्य यद्ब्रह्मवर्चसं तेजोऽर्हात् । पूजयॆत् ॥ अर्ह पूजायाम्। लेट्यडागमः ॥ जनेषु ब्राह्मणेषु द्युमत् दीप्तियुक्तम् क्रतुमत् ज्ञानोपेतं यद्ब्रह्मवर्चसं विभाति । विशेषॆण दीप्यते । यच्च शवसा बलेन स्वाश्रयं जनं दीदयत् ॥ दीदयतिर्दीप्तिकर्मा ॥ दीपयति । चित्रं चायनीयं तद्ब्रह्मवर्चसरूपं द्रविणमस्मासु धेहि । निधेहि ।...

Here "arya" is explained as "śreṣṭho brāhmaṇaḥ", and the entire verse is given an esoteric hue linking brāhmaṇa, brahmavarcas etc., and the final request for extraordinary wealth is changed to "extraordinary brahmavarcas". It will thus be seen that the word "arya" did have a connotation of not only 'great, noble' but also the circumscribing "brāhmaṇa". The three dvija castes could be yajamana for yajnas and so there was no need to limit the prayer to brahmins only.


ऋषिः - विश्वामित्र: गाथिन: । छन्दः - त्रिष्टुप् । देवता - इन्द्रः

इन्द्रमरुत्व इहपाहि सोमं यथा शार्याते अपिबस्सुतस्य ।
तवप्रणीती तव शूरशर्मन्नाविवासन्ति कवयस्सुयज्ञाः ॥ ऋ. वे. ३. ५१. ७

ருஷி: - விச்வாமித்ர: காதிந: | சந்தஸ் - த்ரிஷ்டுப் | தேவதா - இந்த்ரன்

இந்த்ரமருத்வ இஹபாஹி ஸோமம் யதா சார்யாதே அபிபஸ்ஸுதஸ்ய |
தவப்ரணீதீ தவ சூரசர்மந்நாவிவாஸந்தி கவயஸ்ஸுயஜ்ஞா: || ரு. வே. ௩. ௫௧. ௭


ṛṣiḥ - viśvāmitra: gāthina: | chandaḥ - triṣṭup | devatā - indraḥ

indramarutva ihapāhi somaṃ yathā śāryāte apibassutasya |
tavapraṇītī tava śūraśarmannāvivāsanti kavayassuyajñāḥ || ṛ. ve. 3. 51. 7

O indra, in the company of the maruts ! kindly come and drink soma in our yajna, just as you partook soma in the yajna of the king who was the son of śaryāti.


ऋषिः - वॆनः । छन्दः - त्रिष्टुप् । देवता - बृहस्पतिरादित्यो वा

ब्रह्मजज्ञानं प्रथमं पुरस्ताद्विसीमतस्सुरुचो वॆन आवः ।
सबुध्निया उपमा अस्य विष्ठास्सतश्च योनिमसतश्चविवः ॥ अथर्ववॆद ४.१.१

The brahman that was first born of old ("purastāt" may also mean "in the east") vena hath unclosed from the well-shining edge (sīmatas; horizon); he unclosed the fundamental nearest shapes (viṣṭhā) of it, the womb (yoni) of the existent and of the non-existent.

Note :

This verse is repeated in atharvaveda itself at 5.6.1. This same verse, without any change whatsoever, occurs in many other texts such as sāmavedārcikam, vājasaneyi saṃhitā, taittirīya saṃhitā etc.
 
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