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Let us familiarise ourselves with Rigveda

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ऋषिः - मधुच्छन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः

इन्द्रायाहि चित्रभानो सुता इमेत्वायवः ।
अण्वीभिस्तना पूतासः ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०३-०४

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ

indrāyāhi citrabhāno sutā imetvāyavaḥ |
aṇvībhistanā pūtāsaḥ || ṛ. ve. 1-03-04

ரிஷி - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஸ் - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்திரன் |

இந்த்ராயாஹி சித்ரபானோ ஸுதா இமேத்வாயவஃ |
அந்வீபிஸ்தனா பூதாஸஃ || ரிக். வே. ௧-0௩-0௪

The padapāṭha given by sāyaṇa is :—

indra | ā | yāhi | citrabhāno iti citra :' bhāno | sutāḥ | ime | tvā :' yavaḥ | aṇvībhi: | tanā | pūtāsaḥ ||

citradīpte he indra ! asmin karmaṇi āyāhi (āgaccha)| sutā (abhiṣutā) ime (somāḥ) tvāyava (tvāṃ kāmayamānā: (vartaṃte) | aṇvībhiḥ (ṛtvijāṃ aṃgulibhiḥ) sutāḥ | tanā (nityaṃ) pūtāsaḥ (pūtāḥ śuddhā daśāpavitreṇa śodhitatvāt |

he ! of many-splendoured indra, come to this rite ; pressed soma is waiting for you ; the fingers of the ṛtviks have also pressed the soma (which is) purified (by filtering) through daśāpavitra ( a fringed filtering cloth ) always.
 
ऋषिः - मधुच्छन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः

इन्द्रा याहि धियेषितो विप्रजूतःसुतावतः ।
उप ब्रह्माणि वाघतः ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०३-०५

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ

indrā yāhi dhiyeṣito viprajūtaḥsutāvataḥ |
upa brahmāṇi vāghataḥ || ṛ. ve. 1-03-05

ரிஷி - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஸ் - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்திரன் |

இந்த்ரா யாஹி தியேஷிதோ விப்ரஜூதஃ ஸுதாவத: |
உப ப்ரஹ்மாணி வாகதஃ || ரிக் வே. ௧-0௩-0௫

indrā upa ā yāhi — indra tvam āyāhi asmin karmaṇi āgaccha = he! indra come to this rite
vāghataḥ — ṛtvijaḥ = ṛtviks
brahmāṇi — vedarūpāṇi stotrāṇi = for vedic stotras
dhiyā — prajñayā = by intellect
iṣitaḥ — prāptaḥ (asmadbhaktyā prerita) = obtained (influenced by our devotion)
viprajūtaḥ — anyairapi ṛtvigbhiḥ preritaḥ = influenced by other ṛtviks
sutāvataḥ — abhiṣuta somayuktasya = with pressed soma

he! indra come to this rite, influenced by our intellect and devotion (and) of other ṛtviks, for the pressed soma and vedic stotras of the ṛtviks.

5. Indra, apprehended by the understanding, and
appreciated by the wise, approach, and accept the
prayers of the priest, as he offers the libation. — Wilson

5 Urged by the holy singer, sped by song, come, Indra,
to the prayers of the libation-pouring priest. — Griffith
 
[FONT=&quot]ऋषिः[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]मधुच्छन्दाः[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]वैश्वामित्रः[/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]छन्दः[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]गायत्री[/FONT][FONT=&quot]। देवता - इन्द्रः [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]इन्द्रायाहि तूतुजान उप ब्रह्माणि हरिवः ।[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]सुते दधिष्व नश्चनः ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०३-०६[/FONT]

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ


indrāyāhi tūtujāna upa brahmāṇi harivaḥ |

sute dadhiṣva naścanaḥ || ṛ. ve. 1-03-06

[FONT=&quot]ரிஷி[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]மதுச்சந்தாஃ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]வைச்வாமித்ரஃ[/FONT] | [FONT=&quot]சந்தஸ்[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]காயத்ரீ[/FONT] | [FONT=&quot]தேவதா[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]இந்திரன் [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]இந்த்ரா யாஹி தூதுஜான உப ப்ரஹ்மாணி ஹரிவஃ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] |[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ஸுதே ததிஷ்வ நஸ்சனஃ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] || ரிக் வே. ௧-0௩-0௬[/FONT]

Note
:
There is a general feeling among the orthodox people that the western indologists have, as a result of their interest in the hindu scriptures, misinterpreted the meanings without knowing the ambience of the hindu society and its rituals and has thus virtually damaged our heritage, like a monkey spoiling a beautiful garland (kuraṅkiṉ kaiyile pūmālai). This may or may not be true, IMO. But one thing for sure, those people have done some new, ingenious things which, I do not think, our indigenous sages, commentators, etc., would have never dared to do. One such step is to find out the repetitions in the ṛgveda , and Maurice Bloomfield's "Rigveda Repetitions" (1916) is IMO a very marvellous work. I give below the comments from his book in regard to the above ṛk.


10. 104.6a (Aṣṭaka Vāiśvāmitra ; to Indra)

upa brahmāṇi harivo haribhyām somasya yāhi pītaye sutasya |
indra tvā yajñaḥ kṣamamāṇam ānaḍ dāśvān asi adhvarasya praketaḥ ||

It is most tempting to regard 1.3.6b as a fragment taken over from pāda a of the faultless
tristubh 10. 104.6 ; the more so, inasmuch as the three indra yāhi invocations waver clumsily between iambic (1.3.5) and trochaic (1.3.4, 6) cadences, and because our fragment is metrically so characterless as to fit with neither.

For the sake of ready reference :—


An iamb or iambus is a metrical foot used in various types of poetry. Originally the term referred to one of the feet of the quantitative meter of classical Greek prosody: a short syllable followed by a long syllable (as in delay). This terminology was adopted in the description of accentual-syllabic verse in English, where it refers to a foot comprising an unstressed syllable followed by a stressed syllable (as in a-bove).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iambic_meter


A trochee or choree, choreus, (trochaic) is a metrical foot used in formal poetry consisting of a stressed syllable followed by an unstressed one. Trochee comes from the Greek τροχός, trokhós, wheel, and choree from χορός, khorós, dance; both convey the "rolling" rhythm of this metrical foot.


Perhaps owing to its simplicity, though, trochaic meter is fairly common in children's rhymes:


Pet
er, Peter pumpkin-eater
Had
a wife and couldn't keep her

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trochee


If one studies the said book viz., "Rigveda Repetitions", it will be seen that there have been much of borrowing of pādas or phrases between the ṛgvedic composers. This would belie the claim, IMHO, of the orthodoxy that the vedas are eternal, esoteric, truths whose real purport has not been understood by ordinary mortals yet, that the vedas are everlasting vibrations in the etheric medium which only the vedic ṛṣis, with their specially endowed sixth sense, could decipher from those etheric vibrations and pass it on to the lesser mortals for rote learning so that its recitation, the sacrificial rituals, etc., will bring in universal welfare and peace. The ṛgveda at least will, for the most part (save some highly philosophic speculations), look like a compendium of devotional verses very much similar to the current output of devotional poetry, songs, etc., which have mostly the same themes referred to in almost identical terms as well.


Let us now look at the meaning of the ṛk.


he! harivaḥ indra = he! indra possessing horses known as haris

tūtujāna = hastening
brahmāṇi = (to receive our) prayers
upa āyāhi = come near
sute naḥ canaḥ = soma being pressed out, our havis
dadhiṣva = accept

he! indra
[FONT=&quot],[/FONT] possessing horses known as haris, come hastening near (to receive our) prayers, (while) soma (is) being pressed out, accept our havis.

6. Fleet Indra, with the tawny coursers, come

hither to the prayers (of the priest), and in this
libation accept our (proffered) food. — Wilson

6 Approach, O Indra, hasting thee, lord of bay horses,

to the prayers : In our libation take delight, — Griffith
 
Respected Mr. Sangom
Your Blog on the Rig Vedha is a vast treasure house of knowledge on this subject. I therefore request you to kindly continue further beyond your article dated 11th December 2010.
Thanking you and with kind regards
balavas
 
[FONT=&quot]ऋषिः[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]मधुच्छन्दाः[/FONT][FONT=&quot]वैश्वामित्रः[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]छन्दः[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]गायत्री[/FONT][FONT=&quot]। देवता - विश्वेदेवाः [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ऒमासश्चर्षणीधृतो विश्वेदेवास आगत ।[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]दाश्वांसो दाशुषस्सुतम् ॥ ऋ. वे. १-०३-०७[/FONT]

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - viśvedevāḥ |


omāsaścarṣaṇīdhṛto viśvedevāsa āgata |

dāśvāṃso dāśuṣassutam || ṛ. ve. 1-03-07

[FONT=&quot]ரிஷி[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]மதுச்சந்தாஃ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]வைச்வாமித்ரஃ[/FONT] | [FONT=&quot]சந்தஸ்[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]காயத்ரீ[/FONT] | [FONT=&quot]தேவதா[/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]விச்வேதேவாஃ [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]ஓமாஸஸ்சர்ஷணீத்ருதோ விச்வேதேவாஸ ஆகத [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]தாச்வாம்ஸோ தாசுஷஸ்ஸுதம் [/FONT][FONT=&quot]|| ரிக். வே. ௧-0௩-0௭[/FONT]

Whatever comments I make in this thread about repetitions in the ṛgveda is reproduced from the book
"Rigveda Repetitions" by Maurice Bloomfield (1916).

The phrase "
viśvedevāsa āgata" is found in two more ṛks, 2.41.13, 6.52.7, both of which are identical, and are as under :—

viśvedevāsa āgata śṛṇutā ma imaṃ havam |

edaṃ barhini ṣīdata ||

2.41.13 is of ṛṣi gṛtsamada
[FONT=&quot] ; [/FONT]6.52.7 is of ṛṣi ṛjiśvan bhāradvāja[FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

Is it not therefore evident that the very same ṛk has been used by two of the venerable ṛṣis in two different sūktas (hymns)
of two different maṇḍalas (books) of the ṛgveda? May be both the ṛṣis intercepted the very same eternal and everlasting etheric vibrations permeating the universe and decoded the very same prayer addressed to the viśvedevās ; but is it also not possible that in compiling the ṛgveda into the present form of books why were these repetitions allowed to be present?

The meaning of the ṛk under discussion :—


omāsaḥ = protectors, helpers*

carṣaṇī = cultivating people
dhṛtaḥ = supporters
viśvedevāsaḥ = viśvedevās
āgata = come
dāśvāṃsaḥ = bestowers of rewards
dāśuṣaḥ = one who offers havis, the yajamāna
sutam = pressed out soma juice

viśvedevās ! protectors and supporters of cultivating people, bestowers of rewards, come to the pressed out soma juice of one who offers havis (yajamāna).


*From Monier Monier Williams Dictionary, it appears as though the form "
omāsaḥ" vocative plural of oma = from the root 'av' - to protect, occurs only in this one instance.

Visvedevas is a term which superficially means "all the devas of the universe". In the next post I will give some information about how this term has been explained by various scholars.
 
Respected Mr. Sangom
Your Blog on the Rig Vedha is a vast treasure house of knowledge on this subject. I therefore request you to kindly continue further beyond your article dated 11th December 2010.
Thanking you and with kind regards
balavas
Shri Balavas,

Kindly let me know which blog you are referring to, the url pl. I am unable to trace !
 
ऋषिः - मधुच्छन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - विश्वेदेवाः |

विश्वेदेवासो अप्तुरस्सुतमागन्त तूर्णयः ।
उस्रा इव स्वसराणि ॥ ऋ. वॆ. १-०३-०८

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - viśvedevāḥ |

viśvedevāso apturassutamāganta tūrṇayaḥ |
usrā iva svasarāṇi || ṛ. ve. 1-03-08

ரிஷி - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஸ் - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - விச்வேதேவாஃ |

விச்வேதேவாஸோ அப்துரஸ்ஸுதமாகந்த தூர்ணயஃ |
உஸ்ரா இவ ஸ்வஸராணி || ரிக். வே. ௧-0௩-0௮

viśvedevāsaḥ = viśvedevās
apturaḥ = who bestow timely rainfall
sutam = pressed out soma juice
āganta = come
tūrṇayaḥ = fast, without laziness
usrā = sun's rays
iva = like
svasarāṇi = daytime

May viśvedevās who bestow timely rainfall, come for the pressed out soma juice, fast and without laziness, like sun's rays in daytime.
 
Dear Sir
It was the last one you wrote in these coloumns in December 2010. As I did not see your further blogs on this subject, I wrote the above mentioned letter. Any way now that you have commenced writing and may I request to kindly continue further on this subject?
Thanks
balavas
 
ऋषिः - मधुच्छन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - विश्वेदेवाः |

विश्वेदेवासो अस्रिध एहिमायासो अद्रुहः ।
मेधं जुषन्त वह्नयः ॥ ऋ. वे.१-०३-०९

ṛṣiḥ - madhucchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - viśvedevāḥ |

viśvedevāso asridha ehimāyāso adruhaḥ |
medhaṃ juṣanta vahnayaḥ || ṛ. ve.1-03-09

ரிஷி - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஸ் - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - விச்வேதேவாஃ |

விச்வேதேவாஸோ அஸ்ரித ஏஹிமாயாஸோ அத்ருஹஃ |
மேதம் ஜுஷந்த வஹ்னயஃ || ரிக் வே. ௧-0௩-0௯

viśvedevāsaḥ = viśvedevās
asridha = free from decay/debilitation
ehi = ** (come near !)
māyāsaḥ = possessing extraordinary or supernatural power (in vedic language only)
adruhaḥ = who will not harm
medhaṃ = yajña - sacrifice
juṣanta = (may) accept
vahnayaḥ = bestowers of riches

May viśvedevās, (who are) free from decay/debilitation, omniscient, who will not harm (and are) bestowers of riches, accept (this) yajña.

**sāyaṇa interprets ehimāyasa as sarvatovyāpta prajñāḥ or omniscient. Alternatively, he refers to a myth in which the "Viśvedevas addressed the Agni Sauchīka, — who had gone into the water, — saying, ehi, come, mā yāsīḥ, do not go away; from whence they derived the appellation ehimāyāsaḥ." Wilson remarks "It is more than probable that the origin and import of the term were forgotten when Sāyaṇa wrote."

Note :

It is interesting to note that the word "māyā" in the vedic language meant "extraordinary or supernatural power", where as in the modern sanskrit it has the opposite meaning illusion, unreality, deception, fraud, etc. Sankara's advaita also uses the term in the latter sense as every one knows. Is it probable that at some point in the transformation of hinduism, the old beliefs about the powers of the vedic deities underwent a revolutionary change and came to believe that all those old gods/divinities were illusory and only the newly emerging godheads like Rama, Krishna, etc., were the "real" gods, though this was not overtly expressed but only covertly alluded to (like Krishna stopping Indra festival)? A point worth pondering IMHO.
 
The next three verses (1-03-10 to 1-03-12) are addressed to sarasvatī and these have been dealt with earlier, in this post.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/scriptures/5385-let-us-familiarise-ourselves-rigveda.html#post63686

One aspect of interest is the close similarity between ṛks as shown below:

ṛṣi - madhucchandā vaiśvāmitraḥ| chanda: - gāyatrī | devatā - sarasvatī

pāvakā nas sarasvatī
vājebhir vājinīvatī

yajñam vaṣṭu dhiyāvasuḥ --1. 03. 10

May sarasvatī, who purifies, who is bestower of food (havis of the sacrifices), and who also causes the wealth arising out of karma (duty, work), come to our sacrifice with the food to be given to the worshippers.

ṛṣi - bhāradvājaḥ bārhaspatyaḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - sarasvatī |
praṇo devī sarasvatī
vājebhirvājinīvatī

dhīnāmavitryavatu --6. 61. 04

May sarasvatī, who is bounteous, giver of plentiful food and guardian of those who meditate on (worship) her, protect (satisfy) us.
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
Here are my observations on reading your posts on Rk suktam 1-3.

The characteristics of Asvins given by you are:-

Being nimble-handed, long-armed, harbingers of dawn, knowers of the secrets of plant life, having healing and curative powers, coming to earth thrice a day, helping men produce offspring or the cows yield more milk, travelling in a chariot with three spokes, free of untruth, present in the form of attack,

Some of the above are, strictly speaking, not peculiar to Asvins alone. Rudra is also said to be a healer with balmy medicines and the leader of plants. Helping in the production of offspring and in making the cows yield are attributed to Agni also. Though Nasatyas is the name peculiarly given to the Asvins, all the gods are said to be the protectors of rtam, which is also sometimes translated as truth.

The following attributes of Asvins are shared by many other gods.

wonder workers, protectors of auspicious acts, accepters of havis, possessors of horses, doer of good to others, having many achievements, destroyers of enemies, occupying the seat of darbhā grass; love for soma.

Like wise, in the case of Indra, the attributes of being many-splendoured, loving soma, being influenced by our intellect and devotion are shared by many other gods. Indra, like other gods possess horses, though a special name is given to his animals (as hari).

In the case of Visvedevas, their attributes – being protectors and supporters of cultivating people, bestowers of rewards, lovers of soma juice, bestowers of timely rainfall, free from decay, omniscient, unharming, bestowers of riches are also the attributes of many other gods.

Sarasvati has some specific characteristics like being a purifier, giving plenty of water, bestower of food, causes the wealth arising out of karma.

The other attributes she shares with other gods - coming to our sacrifice, guardian of those who meditate, impels people to speak truth, induces the good people to follow the right path, protecting sacrifices, illuminating the intellect of those who perform yajnas.

Will a deeper study reveal that the peculiarities of the gods are not peculiar at all?

Four gods are praised in this suktam, composed by the same author. Whether he composed all the 12 riks at one go or they were composed at different contexts and placed in one sukta by the compiler is not known. In either case, placing together all the four gods together in close proximity while worshipping seems to me that the author and/or the compiler did not find any difference between the gods mentioned therein.

From the above, can we take it that, for the Vedas, all the gods are one and the same, though spoken of differently? Does it buttress the rk 1-164-46 statement, ekamsat vipra bahudha vadanti?
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
Here are my observations on reading your posts on Rk suktam 1-3.

Will a deeper study reveal that the peculiarities of the gods are not peculiar at all?

Dear Shri Vikrama,

First of all, thank you for the very pertinent observations.

We have just commenced with the first book and these 3 sūktas along with the next, are the prayers inviting the different deities to the agniṣṭoma. Though it looks as if all gods are described with more or less similar honorifics/adjectives, my own reading (only superficial, I will claim, not any deep study) has so far been that in the ṛgveda as a whole, these characters (deities) come out and play distinct roles. Perhaps as we progress, it may be possible to obtain some glimpses of the different roles the various deities play.

It will be observed that in ordinary (mortal) life also we are forced to use more or less the same class/group of adjectives and praises in respect of dignitaries, VIPs, politicians, religious heads, scholars and so on. Except the particular incident or cause which is/was at the back of the occasion for the specific address/speech, you will find all people of one category will share more or less the same qualifiers. That being the limitation of language, I feel that the vedic deities had also to be addressed generally with the help of a certain limited set of characteristics.

Some of these, like "protectors of ṛtam, wonder workers, protectors of auspicious acts, accepters of havis, possessors of horses, doer of good to others, having many achievements, destroyers of enemies, occupying the seat of darbhā grass; love for soma, being many-splendoured, being influenced by our intellect and devotion, bestowers of rewards, bestowers of timely rainfall, free from decay, omniscient, unharming, bestowers of riches" etc., are, in my opinion, the yearnings of the vedic bards about what they (the rishis or bards) themselves intensely desired their deities to possess, and that these got expression in the above words - perhaps we tend to think these as "real" qualities which had been actually perceived in these deities, as a proven fact, because we take the vedas as inerrant divine truths revealed through supernatural sources. Though the comparison may not be very appropriate, the emotion behind these praises looks to me the same as one finds in love songs in which the lover attributes very many sublime and noble qualities to the loved one, and nothing specific like "O My dear abc, son/daughter of xyz, etc." Yes, in devotional songs this is the rule like "vasudevaṉ makaṉe, gopiyar koñcum ramaṇā, caṅkaraṉ tantiṭum kantaveḷe, etc."

Four gods are praised in this suktam, composed by the same author. Whether he composed all the 12 riks at one go or they were composed at different contexts and placed in one sukta by the compiler is not known. In either case, placing together all the four gods together in close proximity while worshipping seems to me that the author and/or the compiler did not find any difference between the gods mentioned therein.
We cannot be sure about whether these ṛks were composed in the very same order as we find them now in the saṃhitā. Scholars hold the view that books (maṇḍalas) 1, 8, 9 and 10 are not "family books" but collections of compilations of various priests/ṛṣis, and also that books 1 and 10 are the latest books, chronologically speaking. Therefore, it is quite probable that these verses might have been compiled on different occasions but incorporated into the saṃhitā so that the verses designated for one specific part of the sacrificial ritual (by practice of the later priesthood) are found together in one place. The answer I have given to the previous remark should explain why the rishi finds very similar characteristics for all the deities. But the very fact that these gods are addressed by different names, makes me think that at least this particular ṛṣi (madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ) thought of them as different entities.

From the above, can we take it that, for the Vedas, all the gods are one and the same, though spoken of differently? Does it buttress the rk 1-164-46 statement, ekamsat vipra bahudha vadanti?
I have discussed ṛk 1-164-46 in an old post in this thread. As stated therein this ṛk may mean that the vedic bard recognised "garutmān" (āditya) or, as sāyaṇa opines, agni, in later interpretations; but it does not look to me as though the "brahman" or ādiśankara's "nirguṇaparabrahmam" was envisaged by the ṛgvedic ṛṣis.
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
Thank you for the detailed and prompt reply. Though the God thought of by the vedic bards may not be considered Brahman or Nirguna Brahman, can we at least take it to mean one supreme godhead who is all powerful, who listens to prayers of the devout and bestows many benedictions on him? May be, the devotee desired such a supreme being to bless him and conceived it.
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
Thank you for the detailed and prompt reply. Though the God thought of by the vedic bards may not be considered Brahman or Nirguna Brahman, can we at least take it to mean one supreme godhead who is all powerful, who listens to prayers of the devout and bestows many benedictions on him? May be, the devotee desired such a supreme being to bless him and conceived it.

Yes, but only partially. IMHO the ṛgveda looks pantheistic and also as monotheistic (?) but the evidence for "monism" of the advaita type is not there. Even in regard to the monotheistic concept, the supporting riks may be few like the "asya vāmīya sūkta" (RV,I-164), "the ekam sad viprā bahudhā vadanti" which was referred to already, and very few others perhaps, in which a view may be taken of "one god" concept. But even such a "one god" was considered as "prathamam jāyamānam" the first born; thus it was not at all comparable to the "parabrahman" of Adi Sankara.

Also the fact that the rigvedic notion was of the deceased manes (pitrus) going to a world of Yama and enjoying the fruits of their good work here on earth, eternally in that pitruloka, will not gel with the vedantic pov of rebirth, karma, etc. It will be necessary to concede at least Monotheistic philosophy there, I feel.

I would like to take this opportunity to say that my personal conviction is of the "one god" concept as the most logical, and, the next best - the dwaita (though personally even these do not satisfy my agnostic bent of mind). FYI and also those who may be interested, I give an excerpt from the book "Encyclopaedia of Vedic Philosophy" by Subodh Kapoor :

" The following objection founded on Reasoning may be raised that the Vedantic opinion that he (sic) intelligent Brahman is the material cause of this world is untenable because the effect would in that case be of an altogether different character from the cause. For this world, which the Vedantin considers as the effect of Brahman is perceived to be non-intelligent and impure. This world therefore which is non-intelligent and comprises pleasure, pain and dulness (sic), can only be the effect of a cause itself non-intelligent, and made up of pleasure, pain and dulness (sic); but not of Brahman which is of an altogether different character.

To this Saṅkara replies:-

Your assertion that this world cannot have originated from Brahman on account of the difference of its character, is not founded on an absolutely true tenet. For we see that from man, who is acknowledged to be intelligent, non-intelligent things, such as hair and nails originate and that on the other hand, from avowedly non-intelligent matter such as cow-dung, scorpions and similar animals are produced."

I am really surprised at these analogies - as to how hair and nails originating from a man's body are comparable to jagat and Brahman respectively; if this comparison was really meant seriously, (and not as some stop-gap answer to an inquisitive child) it should have been admitted that the "jagat" - hair & nails - is a phenomenon of and in, the Brahman, which is beyond Its (Brahman's) control itself. That will lead to the need for postulating a creator of Brahman.

It should also be possible then, going by this analogy, to cut off this world from Brahman - like clipping the nail; the world (jagat) should be looked upon as something which may, of some reason, get permanently detached from Brahman like hair from the human body. Today, thanks to modern science, we know that hair fall is caused by a variety of factors some of which have to do with the body which sports the hair itself. Applying this to the Brahman-jagat analogy, it should follow that due to weaknesses or imperfections of the Brahman, the jagat may get severed permanently from Brahman.

The second analogy of cow dung and scorpion is even more shocking, coming as it is from a person held in such high reverence. May be that in śaṅkara's times the general knowledge did not go so far as to know the scientific reason/s for worms, scorpions, millipedes, centipedes, etc., apparently being "produced by the so-called inanimate cow dung"; but then the doubt that I get is "how do we take the conclusions based on such superficial medieval knowledge as something so great as to propound a profound philosophy?" If someone were to put forward arguments such as the above today for a new metaphysical theory, what will your reaction be?

Yet another objection of mine is that śaṅkara who tries to prove that the jagat itself is unreal in the strict sense, that Brahman realization can only be obtained by continuous "nidhidhyāsana" or pondering over, is not able to cite any more intellectually convincing examples/analogies from day-to-day life. Hence is it not likely that the advaita argument itself is only as good and as convincing as the above analogies. These sort of "intellectual" arguments may not be convincing even to a high-school child of today.

I have written the above with the intention to suggest that it is better not to try finding support for advaita; may be the rishi who wrote the nāsadīya sūkta, which has an agnostic ring about it, was nearer the truth than the later Upanishadic sages ; who knows!
 
There are 10 ṛks in this sūkta. sāyaṇa states that the brāhmaṇācchaṃsin (a priest who assists the brāhmaṇa priest or chief priest at a soma sacrifice) recites the first six ṛks in the prātaḥsavana of the abhiplava sacrifice ( a six-day ritual and performed five times during the sacrifice named "gavām ayana"). The first three ṛks also are recited in the mahāvrata - a sāman or stotra appointed to be sung on the last but one day of the gavām ayana. In the agniṣṭoma sacrifice these ten ṛks are cited as additional verses (dhāyyā), as per sāyaṇa.

ऋषिः - मधुछन्दाः वैश्वामित्रः । छन्दः - गायत्री । देवता - इन्द्रः ।

सुरूपकृत्नुमूतये सुदुघामिव गोदुहे ।
जुहूमसि द्यवि द्यवि ॥ ऋ. वे.१-०४-०१

ṛṣiḥ - madhuchandāḥ vaiśvāmitraḥ | chandaḥ - gāyatrī | devatā - indraḥ |

surūpakṛtnumūtaye sudughāmiva goduhe |
juhūmasi dyavi dyavi || ṛ. ve.1-04-01

ருஷி ஃ - மதுச்சந்தாஃ வைச்வாமித்ரஃ | சந்தஃ - காயத்ரீ | தேவதா - இந்த்ரஃ |

ஸுரூபக்ருத்னமூதயே ஸுதுகாமிவ கோதுஹே |
ஜுஹூமஸி த்யவி த்யவி || ரிக். வே. ௧-0௪-0௧

surūpakṛtnum = doer of auspicious rites
ūtaye = for protection
sudughāmiva = like milch cow
goduhe = for milking
juhūmasi = (we) call
dyavi dyavi = every day

(We) call (indra) the doer of auspicious rites, for protection, everyday, just as (we call) the milch cow for being milked.
 
Dear Sri Sangom,
it is better not to try finding support for advaita;
I did not open the topic of brahman or advaita or any other philosophy. I simply wanted to know whether the vedic description of various gods imply the existence of one supreme power. As I have already written in another post and informed you in my PM, I want to get to the bottom of the truth, what is the essence of veda, if there is one, that has sustained it so long in spite of its various inconsistencies and faults.
Though your reply was not relevant to my question, I had the opportunity to learn something. Now could you please clear my doubt given above?
 
Dear Sri Sangom,

I did not open the topic of brahman or advaita or any other philosophy. I simply wanted to know whether the vedic description of various gods imply the existence of one supreme power. As I have already written in another post and informed you in my PM, I want to get to the bottom of the truth, what is the essence of veda, if there is one, that has sustained it so long in spite of its various inconsistencies and faults.
Though your reply was not relevant to my question, I had the opportunity to learn something. Now could you please clear my doubt given above?

Dear Shri Vikrama,

Written communication has its own limitations. What we intend to write may not be what the reader thinks is the import; sometimes it may be ignorance of the reader (in this case myself). In your posts you had remarked, inter alia, the following:

Post #136 - "From the above, can we take it that, for the Vedas, all the gods are one and the same, though spoken of differently? Does it buttress the rk 1-164-46 statement, ekamsat vipra bahudha vadanti?"

Post #138 - "Though the God thought of by the vedic bards may not be considered Brahman or Nirguna Brahman, can we at least take it to mean one supreme godhead who is all powerful, who listens to prayers of the devout and bestows many benedictions on him? May be, the devotee desired such a supreme being to bless him and conceived it."

In replying to the above (or at least thinking that I was replying to the above) I wrote as follows:

"I have written the above with the intention to suggest that it is better not to try finding support for advaita; may be the rishi who wrote the nāsadīya sūkta, which has an agnostic ring about it, was nearer the truth than the later Upanishadic sages ; who knows!"

I now realize that you took it as if I was trying to answer after falsely imagining that you were reading advaita into the rigveda. In truth those were just related ramblings - a foible of my old age perhaps - but I felt those relevant because people in general (and not you) say vedanta is what is there in vedas also. I now understand that you prefer to have only "answers to the point"; I have noted it for future guidance. And now I shall try to answer your question to the point:

"what is the essence of veda, if there is one, that has sustained it so long in spite of its various inconsistencies and faults."

There is no such thing as the essence of the rigveda (if that is what you intend by the generic word veda). It has sustained IMHO because a large workforce of thousands of people (brahman caste) devoted - and is still devoting to some extent - its entire energy during all these millennia for orally transmitting the diverse prayers of diverse hues contained in this rigveda, right from the ancient ages till date.
 
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.....I would like to take this opportunity to say that my personal conviction is of the "one god" concept as the most logical,

Dear Shri Sangom,

IMO, what is most logical is no god who cares for our species, simply one insignificant one in the grandeur that we call jagat. But, we humans seem to have a "god gene" I think polytheism is much less dangerous to the well-being of our fellow beings than the monotheistic ones.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri Sangom,

IMO, what is most logical is no god who cares for our species, simply one insignificant one in the grandeur that we call jagat. But, we humans seem to have a "god gene" I think polytheism is much less dangerous to the well-being of our fellow beings than the monotheistic ones.

Cheers!

Dear Nara,
If we look through our heart and not our eyes we will see that there is only One and you got it right..GOD GENE..thats the GENE which brought forth everything..You hit the correct spot..That is truly Ekaatma Sarvabhutaantaraatma.
 
Dear Shri Sangom,

IMO, what is most logical is no god who cares for our species, simply one insignificant one in the grandeur that we call jagat. But, we humans seem to have a "god gene" I think polytheism is much less dangerous to the well-being of our fellow beings than the monotheistic ones.

Cheers!

As I have said, perhaps on some past occasion, while it is possible (and probably most logical - but I am not so sure*) to go on the basis of "no God", the discussion so far in this thread was about what sort of message/s can be inferred from the rigveda. Definitely it is not possible to find atheistic thinking in this veda. The remaining options are panentheism/pantheism, monotheism, monism and agnosticism. I was replying to Shri Vikrama in that context.

* As you well know, my belief tends more towards agnosticism than atheism. It is logically possible to say "there is no God"; but that "God" IMHO, will be coloured by one of the many prevailing concepts about God — creator and administrator, saviour, the universe itself (panentheism), God is everything put together (pantheism), and so on. The reality as per our sense-knowledge is that there is this universe (even multiverse, incidentally, a portmanteau word, CLN if you chance to read this) and there are human beings who seem to perceive and experience the universe more or less in the same way. (Exceptions like blind/colour-blind, deaf, etc., are not considered.) The question then arises why so? Why this universe, how it came about and why our similarity of perception about it? There must be "some" answer to that question.

May be it is the "God gene" as you put it. But it is a hypothesis even now, I think, about a possibility concerning a certain gene having its role in brain function; this will probably explain how we look at the universe in a more or less similar sense, that is, how different humans all see and experience the universe somewhat alike. But still it will not explain how and why the universe is there, unless we tend to go with Adisankara and say that this God gene also creates that sort of illusion. Will that not lead us next to Smt. Renuka's statement "Ekaatma Sarvabhutaantaraatma, ...the GENE which brought forth everything" though, from the strictly scientific pov, we may not agree that a genetic orientation in Man creates this universe and the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry, cosmology, mathematics, etc.?

I therefore hold the view that the purpose and origin of the cosmos is unknown, and that unknown I designate as God. But merely because it is so named, does not make religion valid or necessary, IMO. Religion is just one way of living with the unknowns and making peace with them. But I personally feel there is no need for such props once we are ready to accept that there are unknowns in this world and in our lives too, and that we have to live with these unknowns and unpredictables.

I would like to have your comments so that I may learn how far I am wrong.
 
Just sharing my thoughts....


The Unknown

No one really knows the Unknown,
A journey towards all eventually go,
What it beholds, remains the greatest mystery,
A search for Existence,Consciousness ,Bliss.

Well enshorouded by the Cosmic Deluder,
Spun like a spider a web of three colours,
Destroy the bond with the power of knowledge,
Emerge a chrysalis from the cocoon of ignorance.

Free to fly, like a butterfly,
Be tempted not by the flowers of desire,
Embark the journey to region of no return,
Sail the ocean of sorrow and trouble.

The road to the Unknown can never be found,
By the light all see around,
Look within,not with your eyes,
Realize the path in this play of Divine.

When the journey ends,truth will dawn,
The Unknown, “You” will never ever know,
Cos’ “You” were never really “You”,
But all the while the Unknown too.
 
Since the ṛgveda is a collection of various prayers of the different priestly families, we have very many sūktas. It is the general tendency to pick one verse or even a part thereof and project it to suit one's preconceived idea. This is just like our picking words to be fitted into sentences. Here I will refer to a few points in the article "The Concept of God in the Vedas" by Swami Tattwamayananda. I do not mean any disrespect whatsoever to the Swamiji and his knowledge and erudition.

Swamiji cites ṛk 7.89.1 in support of his view that the concept of self-surrender (śaraṇāgati) is there in the ṛgveda. If one looks at the entire sūkta 7.89, and its context it will be seen that in 7.88.3 the ṛṣi (vasiṣṭhaḥ maitrāvaruṇiḥ) prays, "May varuṇa and myself get into the same boat (yad varuṇaśca nāvaṃ) and may both of us reach the middle of the ocean (yatsamudram madhyam pra īrayāva); may it (our boat) go along with others (yad apāṃ adhi snu bhiḥ carāva); may we rock in the waves as if on a boat-shaped swing (śubhe pra īṅkhe kam pra īṅkhayāvahai).

In the next ṛk (7.88.4) the bard confirms that varuṇa acceded to his prayers and allowed him to climb varuṇa’s boat (nāvi ā adhāt). Then varuṇa made the bard a stotā, i.e., designated praiser or worshipper.

For those who would like to take all our scriptures as correct, I may also state that vasiṣṭha has 3 births according to purāṇas. First as the mānasaputra of brahma, along with nārada, dakṣa, bhṛgu, kratu, etc.

"utsamgād nārado jajñe
dakṣo:'oguṣṭāt svayambhuvaḥ|
prāṇādvasiṣṭhaḥ samjāto
bhṛgustvak ca harāt kratuḥ ||" - mahābhārata

In his second janma, vasiṣṭha having been burnt to death in the dakṣayāga, rises once again from brahma’s yajñakuṇḍa, marries akṣamālā who is arundhati reborn. In the third birth, vasiṣṭha is born from a kumbha as the son of mitrāvaruṇa, and was agastya's sibling.
— (excerpt from "Puranic Encyclopaedia" by Shri Vettam Maani)

Hence, from the orthodox pov vasiṣṭha is the son of varuṇa; the father and son duo were going in the ocean in a boat as per ṛgveda 7.88. Hence the hymn cited by Swami Tattwamayananda can better be seen as a piece of conversation between father and son. This is further reinforced by 7.88.5:

kvatyāninau sakhyā babhūvu-
ssacāvaheyadavṛkam purācit |
bṛhantam mānam varuṇa svadhāva
ssahasradvāram jagamāgṛham te ||

This means, "He! food-giving varuṇa, where has our old friendship (camaraderie) gone? May we continue to have the old harmless great friendship. You may go to your dwelling (mansion) with thousands of openings (doors)."

Coming to 7.88.6, vasiṣṭha tells varuṇa that he (vasiṣṭha) is the aurasaḥputra of varuṇa (yaḥ nityaḥ āpiḥ - and sāyaṇa has interpreted the word āpiḥ as āpirbandhuḥ|aurasaḥputra ityarthaḥ|) and seeks that he may be bestowed with a great house (varūtham sma yandhi - varaṇīyaṃ gṛham prayaccha ) and all sinless comforts. In the last verse of this sūkta (7.88) vasiṣṭha states that this world is "dhruvāsu āsu kṣitiṣu" everlasting visible world, and prays for "yūyam naḥ sadā svastibhiḥpāta" you protect us always with all kṣema - comfort, welfare, enjoyment. This should give us some idea that the ṛṣi was a realist and was very much talking about this world and its comforts.

Hence to attribute an attitude of self-surrender in the very next ṛk attributed to the same ṛṣi is somewhat bewildering, to put it mildly. Without meaning any disrespect to Swami Tattwamayananda or his knowledge and erudition, let us see the ṛk 7.89.1 once again.

mo ṣu varuṇa mṛnmayaṃ gṛhaṃ rājannahaṃ gamaṃ |
mṛḷā sukṣatramṛḷaya ||

The word mṛḍ means, besides, be merciful/gracious, make happy; sāyaṇa interprets it as in the latter sense and the ṛk, according to him, means -

"Oh, varuṇa, the īśvara, I will not go (am not going) to a dwelling made of mud and other things; I desire a splendid, beautiful one. Moreover thou keep me in comfort. O possessor of splendid wealth, be kind to me."

Swamiji translates the very same ṛk as under:-

‘May I never go, royal Varuna, to a house made of clay; have mercy, Almighty, have mercy.’ (Rig Veda 7.89.1)

There is no word in the original ṛk corresponding to "Almighty" after Swamiji has used "royal" for rājan, and the tone also is more like what sāyaṇācārya has interpreted it as, IMHO.

Similarly Swamiji picks just the third line of 10.82.03 and translates it as "The name-giver of the gods is one; other beings come to him to inquire."; the whole ṛk has been interpreted by sāyaṇa as under:-

Our father and protector, creator of the universe, the one who knows all the bhūtas as also the places of all the devas and the one who gives names to the devas, places them and functions as their chief, to Him all those born of bhūtas query "who is "parameśvara"?".

I find that there is a lot of difference in import between the two. Swamiji's version does not emphasize that the querists are lesser entities born from bhūtas.

The translation of the ṛk "yuje vāṃ brahma" (10.13.1) is also way different from what sāyaṇa states. Since it is the first ṛk in the sūkta which is addressed to havirdhāna (the soma cart), it is difficult to accept the translation given by the Swamiji.

The point I want to emphasize is that it is possible to "read into" the ṛgveda many different kinds of messages. The very fact that advaita, viśiṣṭādvaita, dvaita, śuddhādvaita, etc., have sprung from interpretations by intellects which are superior to even that of Swami Tattwamayananda, is proof that there is no fixed or consistent message in the vedic or upaniṣadic lore. Hence if today one wants to find a certain type of philosophy, and approaches it with such a pre-conceived idea, one can be almost sure to find some supporting statements by picking and choosing whole ṛks, lines or portions thereof, interpreting these without reference to the whole sūkta, its devata, etc. .

Any objective, unbiased study of the ṛgveda will confirm the view given above, IMHO.
 
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