How to counter brahmin bashing??

[happyhindu]

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this is an other education post addressed in the title as For the EDUCATION of KUMJUPPU and HAPPYHINDU - 2

But the post itself is addressed to Shri Kunjuppu ji. Am therefore responding to only the part where happyhindu has been mentioned.

Kunjuppu:

You are not understanding what I say properly. You are the one speculating wildly. I have nothing to do with any right-wing group. If anything, I am appalled by the disunity among Brahmins. In the US, where I lived for a long time, every community has to come together to gain its rights. Brahmins despite their adverse situation, like you, are failing to unite and rise up. Rising up, does not mean throwing bombs. It can mean what happens in the west- civil rights lawsuits. Recall that Mandal got delayed for years because of lawsuits. It can also mean Gandhian methods. So, where is the call for violence? I am a survivalist- but unlike you, I am interested in the whole community, not just mine. And if I constantly talk about "getting elected" and representative democracy, how can you foolishly combine that with "violent means" or "right wing orgs"? Btw, it might interest you to learn that I know the chairman of TN RSS/hindu munnani very well, and he hates me because I don't believe in things like hindu supremacy or out-of-india theory, unless they are scientifically proven. my only motivation is civil rights. I am interested in equal rights for all, including me.

I am an academic. I didn't find any logical argument in your earlier post, meriting point-by-point rebuttal. So you didn't get one. You didn't state anything of substance to get one. Get off your armchair- go travel in the read world; learn the art of getting true stories and unbiased histories, then make up your mind. Please cut your ad-hominem crap about whether I went all over or all under. It pains me that while other communities- in India and other countries, all unite, organize and fight for their rights, the Brahmin community remains helpless- the Tamil Brahmin community being the worst offenders of all. People like you, who refuse to be woken up, are the reasons why. Who can save you, if you won't save yourself?

With friends like you, that are deluded and drunk the kool-aid, who needs enemies?

a) Why do you expect me to say sorry for the caste system? Should the sins of the father be visited upon the son? Do modern day whites keep saying sorry to every black in the US? Next, historically, what is the truth about the caste system? What was "made out of it" by the British historians or what is now embellished on that bigoted account, by modern day "historians"? Caste system, was a class system. Show me one nation without a class system in the world? How can the miniscule Brahmin community be solely responsible for the caste system? And tell me, will a wealthy SC or MBC today, marry his son or daughter to a very poor temple priest's child? The wealthy man will be the first to object.

a 2) If you want to heal the caste system- why should only a "quota system" be the solution. Equal opportunity drives for different disenfranchised communities exist all over the world. "Quota system" is not the way. It is okay to "help someone"; it is not okay to "help someone, by stealing my breakfast". GET the difference?!

a 3) Get your history right. Reservation was invented in TN in the 30s and 40s- with admissions and curricula to schools and colleges. LEARN, BEFORE YOU OBJECT!

a 4) If we had full opportunities in TN and in India, why would be move out? There is a Diaspora that is looking for greener pastures- because the homeland is not green. You are forgetting the context and history of India. In the 40s India was newly independent. It had GREAT NEED and USE for a new community of intelligentsia. Then since 1990s it was on the first flush of prosperity. Again, it needed the intelligentsia. Brahmans being the readily available intelligentsia, should have had FAR more rewards in a budding nation- they never got the rewards- nor the right opportunities to serve. This is not the case with the Asian Tigers, that profited from their readily trained communities more quickly. This was something suicidal India did. Not leverage its talent quickly.

a 5) I am pro-meritocracy. You don't understand that I don't consider mere-vegetarianism and punal as being Brahminhood. No, you must be much more.I want quota-system and the social stigma against Brahmins to go, and a true meritocracy to prevail. I don't want any domination, nor do I consider myself so entitled.

b) Other communities were not purged from govt and politics like brahmins were. it doesnt matter whether the brahmin can play the game or not- depends on the individual. First, give us or fair share. make us equal citizens. then it is meritocracy and equal rights.

c) See my response to HappyHindu. You have not tried to research in Indian ethics and history, either a student or a professor, or attend a Vedapatasala as a priest-initiate or as a teacher. You have not tried to run a temple in the US and in IN and found the difference and the issues. I have done many or all of these things. I can speak from experience, not from my armchair. There is so much money that could be given and should be given to preserve Indian culture and "Sanskrit". But do you know how hard it is to get students, and hire professors in the adverse environment? Do you know how few PhD seats are available for this subject statewide? Do you know how much harder it is for the patasalas to survive? For example, do you know about the struggles of the Madras Sanskrit College, or the Sanskrit School near Chinglepet? I have received appeals from so many places, so many people- other than the ones I have sought out, asking me- begging me, to raise money, because I am one of the few ON THE INSIDE that knows the problem. No other country with an ancient culture, spends so little on the preservation of that culture. The buffoons in your armchairs are part of the malaise of the uninformed.

i do not know of the reasons why sanskrit studies are not well funded. And in tamilnadu, tehre might well be a political angle to it. Am only wondering who are the people who will want to pursue such courses in the present times. I remember having read in a newspaper along time back about a MA degree course that was shut down in madras university and in queen mary's college bcoz there were very few students. Possibly there are other reasons unknown at the moment why sanskrit studies is not getting funds to continue. Are there really many students willing to take and study such courses in present times?

=contd.

 

[Jamadagneya]

this is an other education post addressed in the title as For the EDUCATION of KUMJUPPU and HAPPYHINDU - 2

But the post itself is addressed to Shri Kunjuppu ji. Am therefore responding to only the part where happyhindu has been mentioned.

Believe it or not, there are lots of people who do want to study Sanskrit and make it their profession. They are unable to. If I had a few grants, I would take a few PhD students myself. There are NO takers only among Brahmins who have forgotten what it means to be a Brahmin. Consider Malaysia, Indonesia- many other countries- or take Egypt which too has as ancient a culture as India's. All not that wealthy. They all fund their cultural studies much more. This is a fact. Today 60% of new PhD graduates in Sanskrit each year, come from outside India, and mostly Europe.
Then consider money spent on archeology and other things related to Indian antiquities.
You can see that "the will of the govt" is NOT BEHIND such studies. The only reason you- or anyone else- may not know the facts, is because you have not tried to do these things and they don't affect you. Two years ago, exactly one student- who works as a priest in Mambalam, showed up for PhD admission for Sanskrit at Madras University. Even he, didn't join the course, because a JRF grant couldn't be found for him. So- no one started studies that session.

If such facts don't hurt you, and make you weep, then you have deBrahminized already. No point in your calling yourself a real Brahmin.

I can go on and on and on and on about such atrocities by the govt. As I said "wake up".

 

[happyhindu]

this is the third and the last education post addressed in the title as Educating HappyHindu and Kunjapu - 3

Well, back to the original train:

d) You don't see a dearth, because you don't know where to look. You have given up your identity already- you think material prosperity in a consumerist society is everything- this is dead-against Brahmin ideology.

i have nothing to say about the rest of this post.

i just have a simple question: why are brahmins not willing to give up material prosperity then?

why all this angst about the times, politics, society, etc then? why not return to a simple spiritual non-material life then?

wud be nice if other posters wud respond to this. if there is a response from jamadagneya, i suspect it will again be filled with angst or indignation. As mentioned b4, i will not be responding to this thread anymore..but wud love to read replies based on what each thinks of this....

It is against the point of being a Brahmin, and standing for virtue, knowledge, wisdom and piety. Brahmins are called "Vipra" in Sanskrit. What does that mean? He who knows. I see a dearth, because I look in the right places. I try to live life as a true brahmin. I don't think just because I have three cars and a big house, I am prosperous. No, the ones that are well off are NOT opening the purses for the many that aren't. Have you seen sons of priests become farm workers? become truck drivers? I have. Have you wept that you are not able to return them to Vedic study? I have. Frankly, you have lost your Brahmin identity already when you think "getting rich" is good. If getting rich was all it took, when world literacy levels were less than 0.5% centuries ago, why didn't Brahmins all get rich?! Or even try to ?! You are completely forgetting what it means to be a Brahmin. When you look at the situation, WITH your Brahmin identity and see that things are available to you, only when you deBrahminize, that is when you will see the dearth I talk about. Btw, Brahmins were far more prosperous in ancient times. Their learning ensured they never had to stand in line. Every Brahmin was entitled to free food and shelter, wherever he traveled. In return, he was above monetary want- something you are not.

f) IT is not unsubstantiated, just because you type that word! Please go look at the text books from TamilNad school board- how much they are wiped off and how serious academics internationally, don't take school textbooks seriously from TN govt. And I am not speaking about the out-of-India camp. But, what to do children learn from? Only from these textbooks. How many go out and learn the real story? How many buildings and libraries and projects are named after great Brahmin luminaries from no more than 50 years ago, but they dig up insignificant people of little achievement of other castes for this purpose? IF you have read your history impartially, you will see what I mean. But you have not done your homework. Go to Connemara library. Read the history of TamilNad state from the time the British set foot. See how frequently Brahmins figure in it in various roles. Then ask, how is there no mention about our achievements in history today?! Why is the govt and the country silent about my people. It is a virtue to accept your ignorance if you don't know something. Practise it. Even Sankara could accept he didn't know certain things.

g) I am interested in civil rights. True equality. I don't care about right wing clubs or left wing clubs. I care about the systematic assault on Brahmins and Hindu heritage. First of all, you are being jingoistic that "right wing is bad". Who said that? Ram, Romila Thapar and Congress-I, who don't care about Indian culture. Next, I am not interested in defaming other people. I am only interested in getting my fair share. A meritocracy. My forefathers have done a lot of good; so the country should not be silent about that. Prove to me what other communities have done some good and I will respect that. I am for fairness and civil rights. I am for the indolent Tamil Brahmin waking up. In the first place, I made an example of Gandhi. Was he a Brahmin?!

i) Legally and historically, Religion is beyond your likes and dislikes. It doesn't matter whether you like Tamil prayers or I like French prayers. Sanskrit is the only allowed liturgical language of Hinduism as Latin and Arabic are for others. If you don't like Sanskrit temple services, please form your own religion, or denomination within Hinduim. Don't bowdlerize mainstream and original Hinduism with your likes. Same goes for women as priests. I explained this in another thread already. I may not be a misogynist. But, to believe in a religion, I have to believe it fully, 100% and unquestioningly. Not question what I don't like, not pick and choose articles of faith. Next, no religion, including Hinduism has any responsibility to explain every detail to its adherents. It is not science. Science is what we discover. Religion is believed to be the "Way of God" that has been revealed. It is not for you to question it.

For your minor points:
I don't now what happened here one year ago. I know what has been happening to Brahmins from many years ago. Where is the erudition in you? When under threat, Manu onwards, all laws tell even the passive Brahmin to act, for the sake of society. You didn't understand the point I made about Gandhi. In detail: His chief contribution, was creating a pan-Indian identity against the British. Historically, Britain left India because of the beating they took in WWII. They had to give up all their colonies one by one, in the new world order. India was just the largest. But, Gandhi did create or at least foster a nation-wide identity. Brahmins DID DO THIS for thousands of years. It is the Vedas and other scriptures, the customs and the cultures and the learning that has bound India. Not anything else. And these are not of Brahmin making?!

You ask what is my plan of action. This is the difference between you and me. You are on an armchair. I am not. You think I am ranting and venting and after that, will need to act. Not true. I have already done a lot and whether I have money or not, I have poured several crores into Brahmin upliftment in several villages. Some efforts have been paying off- at least on a small scale. As I said, even if I die tomorrow, I will have a legacy. And it won't be some posts on a little website, or the claim of moderating it. If, unlike you, a few people here wake up, then there is something useful done already. That is the point of my posts. If they wake up, they can join me, or join other groups or go out do something on their own- that is good for the whole community, not just themselves. IF even one person does that, that is good enough returns for my posting these posts.

I am not going to tell you who I am; excepting to say a few things. I don't sit on an armchair. I go out and do stuff. I have a semi-public profile. So I am not a total unknown either. And if there are people like you on this site or elsewhere in the world, that won't just wake up, you simply don't deserve any better than the lot in your life. Heaven help you.

 

[Jamadagneya]

PEOPLE:

I know my responses were long. This was necessitated and was addressed mainly to those following the dispute and my disputants. That is why I also posted a synopsis in one of my posts for others. Pannvalan--> this is addressed to you. I do have some sense in my head.

Further, I can't do anything about the colors or the boldface- this website is acting up on my browser and is connecting to all kinds of ad sites. I can't help what is coming out.

Lastly, Pannavan- I agree with several of your statements- a true Brahmin does command respect- anywhere in the world- not just Indian society- even Japanese or other societies which know nothing about Brahmins and don't care (Japanese are very dogmatic about their culture), can make out a man of learning easily and respect him.

To all Brahmins who pass off defeatism as pragmatism, I say this. It takes only a few to fight the good fight. And they will also serve those who stand and wait.

 

[tbs]

Believe it or not, there are lots of people who do want to study Sanskrit and make it their profession. They are unable to. If I had a few grants, I would take a few PhD students myself. There are NO takers only among Brahmins who have forgotten what it means to be a Brahmin. Consider Malaysia, Indonesia- many other countries- or take Egypt which too has as ancient a culture as India's. All not that wealthy. They all fund their cultural studies much more. This is a fact. Today 60% of new PhD graduates in Sanskrit each year, come from outside India, and mostly Europe.
Then consider money spent on archeology and other things related to Indian antiquities.
You can see that "the will of the govt" is NOT BEHIND such studies. The only reason you- or anyone else- may not know the facts, is because you have not tried to do these things and they don't affect you. Two years ago, exactly one student- who works as a priest in Mambalam, showed up for PhD admission for Sanskrit at Madras University. Even he, didn't join the course, because a JRF grant couldn't be found for him. So- no one started studies that session.

If such facts don't hurt you, and make you weep, then you have deBrahminized already. No point in your calling yourself a real Brahmin.

I can go on and on and on and on about such atrocities by the govt. As I said "wake up".

hi jama,
i did my ph.d in sanskrit from delhi university..what u said correct
and reality...being TB and by god's grace ..i served in indian
army...where there is no reservation policy against brahmins...
finally landed in USA....the country which adopted me too..
here in USA ...there is no caste system...basically im a
minority indian american...

regards
tbs

 

[Jamadagneya]

Jamadagneya,

Thankyou for your education. Responses to your education posts are my last on this thread. Just posting a few views below. Not intended to displease or anger you. Just take them as someone's viewpoints that you need not agree with.

Since you are not a Brahmin, you have not gone through the Brahmin experience. You won't understand. I don't expect you to understand. And I am not talking to you, and I am not asking you to wake up. And I am not interested in your survival- when my own survival is at stake. Good day, sir. ---> That is all I need to say to you.

But I will show some courtesy and answer some of your misguided denials.

1) you make a remark. But, what's your point? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

2) Reservation and quota systems are considered unconstitutional in MANY countries. It is against the BASIC EQUALITY of ALL MEN. Here are you, blind and justifying reservation. Sixteen years ago, when my niece went to Anna university, she had scored 292/300. In her class were boys and girls of SC/ST cadre, who had scored 151/300. You think that is fair? I don't care if other castes are also affected by reservation. They can fight their own battles. I am with them in spirit. But, in India, reservation was invented in TN as a slap against Brahmins. So, it is a much bigger deal for Brahmins.

3) No, I am quite familiar with Andhra politics having a sitting MLA and an ex-MLA among my acquaintances. Kammas don't have the image you are trying to convey. They have always been thought as landed exclusivists. But, they don't have the stigma attached to Tamil Brahmins. Jayalalitha not deBrahminized??!! Don't you remember her fasting for social justice aka reservation? SV Sekar rediscovered he is a Brahmin only recently. I know him personally.

4) Go back and read my post. I said, govt is suppressing- so go to Connemara library where the state archives from the British days are kept- and read- read what even white men had to write. kapische?

5) No, and no. You are wrong on both counts. Most Brahmins did not try to indulge in trade to make money. They did not try to enter the army or politics to gain power. They confined themselves to scholarship and liturgy. There is vast amounts of evidence for this. Again, note the word "most". I didn't say "all". Most did lead austere lives. History just has too much evidence for you to deny this. And it is a proven fact that the monastic order vanished with the Muslem invasions. Why do you think there is no Buddhism in India, just a century after the first Muslim invasions while there were millions (yes millions) of Buddhist monks throughout the north of India? Again, please study history. Just because some uninformed non-scholar makes a claim... history can't bend.

Since you are not a Brahmin, you have no Brahmin identity to speak of. It is inappropriate for you to make a statement about Brahmins and their occupations. I have already answered your protest. Weaving has become obsolete. Tell me, has Hinduism become obsolete that you don't need Brahmins to do your liturgy? Why is your id the "Happy Hindu"? Why arent you "Happy Ex-Hindu"? You are muddling up your analogies. Understand what I said first, then protest with reason.

6) If you don't want to become a westernized Indian-American-European mongrel, you have to preserve your culture. Preserving culture and the arts- even in the days of kings were not done for the sake of gold or money. They were done to preserve the national identity. Otherwise, if national identities were not necessary, we can get rid of all armies and nations, and all the nations in the world can join one of the nations of Walmart-land, Exxon Mobil Pradesh and Microsoft-puram, because they make the most money. Money is not the key to the world. Can you understand this much?
Ok, now extending your argument, if we are only into making money, why do we need artists, painters, singers, dancers, actors etc? Let's just turn all of India into a factory.

7) The govt doesnt interfere in churches and mosques. It interferes only in Temples. There is no real Separation of Church/Temple and State in India.

8) First, don't presume to speak for Brahmins, when you have confessed you are not one. Next, in a law-abiding society, don't discount the power of litigation, organization and activism. I have done too much work for the ACLU and other international bodies, even in societies less lawful than India, to know the power. Brahmins are disunited- in TN and elsewhere. That is the problem.

9) I have clarified in many places what Brahmin means. I don't care what you, with no qualifications in the field, and a non-scholar clearly, dispute or agree with. It doesn't matter. 60 centuries at least is fact. It starts with the earliest Rig Vedic books. When the first Rishi, my ancestor- not yours, sat down to compose the first Rig. You are merely objecting in jealousy. without history on your side. I have also said, I take Vishwamitra and Valmiki as Brahmins and will myself ordain and initiate deserving SCs as Brahmins and don't accept mere punal and vegetarianism as being Brahmin. A Brahmin is one who merits Vedic study. (Note "merits" not "studies"). Anyone who merits such study- even if he is born a Dane or a Norwegian, is a Brahmin and is my kinsman. I don't like ISKCON for some reasons; but they have a good policy of initiating any deserving person after training, as Brahmin. You have not read all my posts- and don't understand I am far more broadminded than you.

Don't presume to tell me what is the right version of history. That is idiotic. I am an academic in the field!

10) About lack of Brahmin candidates: Brahmins are not run for elections even if there were deserving cases because they have been stigmatized and caricaturized in TN and AP. Only a deBrahminized Brahmin can run, downplaying his identity. This is my point. You are saying some tangential non-point about poverty. Even if Brahmins find the money to run, they cannot run WITHOUT deBrahminizing themselves. This is not fair, in a democratic country.

About your response to my riposte number 3. My posts are not filled with angst. You don't "get" my posts. They are filled with two things only: information and logic. They are for the benefit of Brahmins who want to fight for a fair share. Not outsiders like you, who have no stake.

Brahmins and material life: Brahmins must not seek material life, to remain true Brahmins. The reason they are forced to work for a living is because state sponsorship of their activities, which was a requisite for their being immersed in scholarly activities is no longer available. For example, for centuries, my ancestors could live in our village and pursue Vedic study because the Chola king had endowed ours and the neighboring five villages to our community and the upkeep of our patasala. Even when a Brahmin is forced to work for a living, he must only make enough to subsist. He is required by the Shastras to donate the rest. Otherwise he loses his Brahminhood. I am not for all Brahmins getting rich by deBrahminizing. The number of people I pay for Vedic studies, I could simply employ in one of my family companies. I don't do that. My point is consistent. The state must give Brahmins a fair share. Then it must return its patronage to them. And the Brahmins must then go back to their lofty pursuits and shun materialism. Any Brahmin that can't do this, must then disavow his Brahmin identity. But first, Brahmins must get equal rights.

 

[Jamadagneya]

Btw, state, public sponsorship, as well private sponsorship model doesnt apply just to Vedic studies alone. Brahmins are the intelligentsia of India. So, it can apply to science and engineering as well. Recall that Brahmins did study sciences and medicine too, in ancient India. Not all studied the Vedas. Many studied the Shastras- artha, niti, nyaya, ganita and so on. And in the west, where much of the world's academic research is done, the model used is state-public-private grants. So that most scientists can work freely for the privilege of research. This was what happened in ancient India- research and study by Brahmins and artisans were supported by the state or by patrons. The extent of USSR's scientific contributions is the big success story of the state sponsored model. Scientists did great things there not for money, but for prestige and the respect their society gave them- just like Brahmins in ancient India. So, why not first give Brahmins their fair share and then set up such a model, so they can return to their "brain work" and not care for money?

 

[happyhindu]

This is a lot of what i wud consider just noise (but excuse me for saying that - its just my own pov). A short response since this was specifically addressed to me (i request you to carry on your conversation with others in this thread and excuse me from it):

Since you are not a Brahmin, you have not gone through the Brahmin experience. You won't understand. I don't expect you to understand. And I am not talking to you, and I am not asking you to wake up. And I am not interested in your survival- when my own survival is at stake. Good day, sir. ---> That is all I need to say to you.

Good day to you too sir. Hope this is the last response from you to me.

But I will show some courtesy and answer some of your misguided denials.

1) you make a remark. But, what's your point? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

2) Reservation and quota systems are considered unconstitutional in MANY countries. It is against the BASIC EQUALITY of ALL MEN. Here are you, blind and justifying reservation. Sixteen years ago, when my niece went to Anna university, she had scored 292/300. In her class were boys and girls of SC/ST cadre, who had scored 151/300. You think that is fair? I don't care if other castes are also affected by reservation. They can fight their own battles. I am with them in spirit. But, in India, reservation was invented in TN as a slap against Brahmins. So, it is a much bigger deal for Brahmins.

3) No, I am quite familiar with Andhra politics having a sitting MLA and an ex-MLA among my acquaintances. Kammas don't have the image you are trying to convey. They have always been thought as landed exclusivists. But, they don't have the stigma attached to Tamil Brahmins. Jayalalitha not deBrahminized??!! Don't you remember her fasting for social justice aka reservation? SV Sekar rediscovered he is a Brahmin only recently. I know him personally.

4) Go back and read my post. I said, govt is suppressing- so go to Connemara library where the state archives from the British days are kept- and read- read what even white men had to write. kapische?

5) No, and no. You are wrong on both counts. Most Brahmins did not try to indulge in trade to make money. They did not try to enter the army or politics to gain power. They confined themselves to scholarship and liturgy. There is vast amounts of evidence for this. Again, note the word "most". I didn't say "all". Most did lead austere lives. History just has too much evidence for you to deny this. And it is a proven fact that the monastic order vanished with the Muslem invasions. Why do you think there is no Buddhism in India, just a century after the first Muslim invasions while there were millions (yes millions) of Buddhist monks throughout the north of India? Again, please study history. Just because some uninformed non-scholar makes a claim... history can't bend.

Since you are not a Brahmin, you have no Brahmin identity to speak of. It is inappropriate for you to make a statement about Brahmins and their occupations. I have already answered your protest. Weaving has become obsolete. Tell me, has Hinduism become obsolete that you don't need Brahmins to do your liturgy? Why is your id the "Happy Hindu"? Why arent you "Happy Ex-Hindu"? You are muddling up your analogies. Understand what I said first, then protest with reason.

Nope hinduism has not become obsolete. I consider brahmins doing liturgy as having come from various backgrounds in the past, from various tribes. it wud not matter to me who did the liturgy in the present times - i will accept anyone trained to do so. And i remain a happy hindu.

6) If you don't want to become a westernized Indian-American-European mongrel, you have to preserve your culture. Preserving culture and the arts- even in the days of kings were not done for the sake of gold or money. They were done to preserve the national identity. Otherwise, if national identities were not necessary, we can get rid of all armies and nations, and all the nations in the world can join one of the nations of Walmart-land, Exxon Mobil Pradesh and Microsoft-puram, because they make the most money. Money is not the key to the world. Can you understand this much?
Ok, now extending your argument, if we are only into making money, why do we need artists, painters, singers, dancers, actors etc? Let's just turn all of India into a factory.

7) The govt doesnt interfere in churches and mosques. It interferes only in Temples. There is no real Separation of Church/Temple and State in India.

8) First, don't presume to speak for Brahmins, when you have confessed you are not one. Next, in a law-abiding society, don't discount the power of litigation, organization and activism. I have done too much work for the ACLU and other international bodies, even in societies less lawful than India, to know the power. Brahmins are disunited- in TN and elsewhere. That is the problem.

9) I have clarified in many places what Brahmin means. I don't care what you, with no qualifications in the field, and a non-scholar clearly, dispute or agree with. It doesn't matter. 60 centuries at least is fact. It starts with the earliest Rig Vedic books. When the first Rishi, my ancestor- not yours, sat down to compose the first Rig. You are merely objecting in jealousy. without history on your side. I have also said, I take Vishwamitra and Valmiki as Brahmins and will myself ordain and initiate deserving SCs as Brahmins and don't accept mere punal and vegetarianism as being Brahmin. A Brahmin is one who merits Vedic study. (Note "merits" not "studies"). Anyone who merits such study- even if he is born a Dane or a Norwegian, is a Brahmin and is my kinsman. I don't like ISKCON for some reasons; but they have a good policy of initiating any deserving person after training, as Brahmin. You have not read all my posts- and don't understand I am far more broadminded than you.

Don't presume to tell me what is the right version of history. That is idiotic. I am an academic in the field!

good for you that you are more broadminded than me....it wud be interesting to read if you cud put forward the connection b/w the 'first rishi' and you, with all the names of all your forefathers in between (just in case you wish to).

10) About lack of Brahmin candidates: Brahmins are not run for elections even if there were deserving cases because they have been stigmatized and caricaturized in TN and AP. Only a deBrahminized Brahmin can run, downplaying his identity. This is my point. You are saying some tangential non-point about poverty. Even if Brahmins find the money to run, they cannot run WITHOUT deBrahminizing themselves. This is not fair, in a democratic country.

About your response to my riposte number 3. My posts are not filled with angst. You don't "get" my posts. They are filled with two things only: information and logic. They are for the benefit of Brahmins who want to fight for a fair share. Not outsiders like you, who have no stake.

Brahmins and material life: Brahmins must not seek material life, to remain true Brahmins. The reason they are forced to work for a living is because state sponsorship of their activities, which was a requisite for their being immersed in scholarly activities is no longer available. For example, for centuries, my ancestors could live in our village and pursue Vedic study because the Chola king had endowed ours and the neighboring five villages to our community and the upkeep of our patasala. Even when a Brahmin is forced to work for a living, he must only make enough to subsist. He is required by the Shastras to donate the rest. Otherwise he loses his Brahminhood. I am not for all Brahmins getting rich by deBrahminizing. The number of people I pay for Vedic studies, I could simply employ in one of my family companies. I don't do that. My point is consistent. The state must give Brahmins a fair share. Then it must return its patronage to them. And the Brahmins must then go back to their lofty pursuits and shun materialism. Any Brahmin that can't do this, must then disavow his Brahmin identity. But first, Brahmins must get equal rights.

i do not see the connection b/w a brahmin getting his equal rights in the social sphere and his stand of shunning materialism - two disparate things to me.

Thank you for the conversation. Good bye.

 

[praveen]

If such facts don't hurt you, and make you weep, then you have deBrahminized already. No point in your calling yourself a real Brahmin.

I must raise an objection to this and stop portraying yourself as a real brahmin. This is in a way, insulting to other members and this is a warning to you. Just because you know/do/understand certain things, does not make you one better than others. Circumstances make/change people. Please understand that and please understand there are members who are very sensitive.

While i have enjoyed reading your posts so far, lines like this do not go well.

 

[Jamadagneya]

HappyHindu is a troll=Troll is a noisemaker= Call a spade a spade.

This is your final warning!
if you continue to post like this and challenge the moderators/admins and insult other members , your membership will be removed.

 

[anandb]

Shri. Jamadagneya,

I have enjoyed your posts which are hard hitting and to the point. You don't mince words to convey your thoughts. Your words brim with fire but I don't want the fire to become a raging tornado and be extinguished in this forum as I believe you have much to contribute here. If the language can be toned down a little bit as I think this could distract and dilute the validity of your argument. Just my thoughts, sir, though I am with you on your emotions.

 

[pbkhema]

:der:Let me go back to the original aspect of what is to be done
o srart with we must start writing leter to the producers/actors and newspapers whena Film or TV serialportrays brahmins in a sorry state or riducule them
As a first step we must protest Brahmin Ladies being portrayed with Nadisar in the serials and films.We must make a begining and then gather momentum

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Jamadagneya,

Many points raised by you are quite right. But, why should you fight with others?
It is a pity that without even knowing who Praveen is, you have participated in this site.

As Kunjuppu demanded and as what you claim often, why don't you reveal your identity, at least through a private message to the admins?

If you fail to do that, one may have to conclude that you are a megalomaniac or an intruder.

 

[vijay70]

Let's be real

To all of those in the above discussion,

Caste system in India has been prevailing for ages and so has been the colour system in the western world. Let's remember one thing. If we keep dividing and subdividing on the basis of caste, colour, languages, region, religion and so on, then we will be a primitive society and not a progressive society.

People will use provocative language and we must avoid it. As south indians, in north or in other parts of india people will blame us for something or the other. Similarly, in south we will blame the rest of the indians and the rest of the world for it. such things happen throughout the world and one must not pay too much of attention to these things.

It is important for us to focus on education, work and spiritualism and not indulge in such talks which only drain our emotions and energy. Nothing is perfect in this world. We can only try to nearly achieve it.

Regards,

 

[padmanabsridharr]

Dear Sir: I tried twice invain to send you the url for my father's article in chennaionline.com/tamil site but it is not reflecting correctly - some technical prob. Anyway, if you go this site and click பத்திகள், you will find a few articles written by him including Brahmana Dhwesham Vendame as also under ஆன்மீகம், he has written about Nagapattinam Neelayadakshi Amman Temple and also a Suprabatham song for the Deity. Thanks and Regards
Padmanab Sridhar

 

[Raghy]

This is your final warning!
if you continue to post like this and challenge the moderators/admins and insult other members , your membership will be removed.

Respectable moderators/admins,

I do not agree with many of the points raised by Sri. Jamadgneya. I hail from a small village. I lived in that village until I left India. I know about caste differences and the informations connected to that from various point of views from people from various castes.

although I disagree with some of Sri. Jamadagneya's views, I think he has the right to express his opinions. Yes, he does not need to indulge in name calling tactics. I am sure he is wise enough to withdraw such remarks.

But, For the moderators to post a warning on the public forum is not very tasteful. Kindly allow the members to calm down on their own. After all, they are discussing a thorny issue. As mentioned in this thread earlier, sentiments may be trampled upon.

Kindly take this as a suggestion., please. You if decide to delete to your warning message and my post along with that, I can understand that.

Regards,

Raghy.

 

[silverfox]

Dear Padmanabsridhar:
Thank you. I was able to get into that url and read the posting. A very good one. I also read the comments by several readers.

 

[praveen]

Respectable moderators/admins,

I do not agree with many of the points raised by Sri. Jamadgneya. I hail from a small village. I lived in that village until I left India. I know about caste differences and the informations connected to that from various point of views from people from various castes.

although I disagree with some of Sri. Jamadagneya's views, I think he has the right to express his opinions. Yes, he does not need to indulge in name calling tactics. I am sure he is wise enough to withdraw such remarks.

But, For the moderators to post a warning on the public forum is not very tasteful. Kindly allow the members to calm down on their own. After all, they are discussing a thorny issue. As mentioned in this thread earlier, sentiments may be trampled upon.

Kindly take this as a suggestion., please. You if decide to delete to your warning message and my post along with that, I can understand that.

Regards,

Raghy.

appreciate the feedback. the fact that he posted for sometime shows that we did allow him to express his views. but he took it a bit far and started calling names and insulted other members which led to this suspension (even after asking him to stop).

public messages like the one you mentioned tells others that we are here to ensure a smooth functioning of the site and people cannot say things for granted and insult others. thats all.
it is quite simple.
feel free to express yourself, but have a limit. do not insult other members or mock the moderators and respect other people's sensitivity. as long as that is adhered to, no harm done.

 

[sapthajihva]

I have just seen this thread today and was surprised to see Jamadagneya banned.... sifted the posts and inferred that some harsh language against some member(s) must have been the reason.

But the fact remains that his remarks about the quality of the counter to his posts, their veering off purpose and logic, are valid.

The fact that each of the examples he has put forth have not been met with an equally forceful logic, is proof enough of the credibility of his statements.

I have seen aimless counters to an argument, in this thread and others, which not only divert the topic, but also open up a totally different dimension of what was originally the intent of the poster.

It is also a fact that one cannot make sweeping generalizations out of individual experiences and make a case out of it, as is often the case with certain members. The credibility of the argument is lost as it cannot, and will not, apply to the majority. One cannot take exceptions to code a rule, though there can be rules for exceptions. This results in the discussions being ego-centric, with each trying to outdo the other, as a sort of pattimandram, with the general purpose lost in the process.

The purpose of this forum, as Shri Kunjuppu has been trying to consistently point out (only trying to point out), by referring to the forum aim and guidelines, is lost in his own posts which incessantly speak of castelessness and caste as a discriminating factor, without understanding the fundamental logic of the case. This is aggravated since he also takes the role of a moderator. Repeating or referring to the guidelines alone does not mean that all the intent is proved; one has to put it in practice, in intent, and in words, in the context of this forum.

I understand, that topics can be openly discussed, but not overt suggestions to drop off caste and rituals based on one's one experience and convenience, especially from moderators. It is a bad signal, to the site, and also to our unity.

The title, under religions, specifically mentions that abuses against any religion etc are not allowed. If that is the case, then, is the suggestion of castelessness not a deviation to the rule? Just a misunderstood and distorted view of a few individuals cannot be held to the the supreme view.

We should clear doubts and clarifications, but when we make authoritative statements, guising them as individual opinions, it has certain reflections on the minds of the community. It may be diplomatically or technically correct, but morally wrong.

In this context, to start off, we should avoid anti references to caste, rituals and the like. Some could term it as curbing of free speech, but it is insignificant in the overall aim of uniting the community.

Finally, as a signoff, I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion: (any takers?)

:der:Let me go back to the original aspect of what is to be done
o srart with we must start writing leter to the producers/actors and newspapers whena Film or TV serialportrays brahmins in a sorry state or riducule them
As a first step we must protest Brahmin Ladies being portrayed with Nadisar in the serials and films.We must make a begining and then gather momentum

 

[pannvalan]

Instead of petitioning the directors and the producers, simply boycott them. Since they are in a commercial field, they will feel only where it pinches.

Of course, lodging our formal protest thro' issuing legal notice/s also, in some extreme cases, may be considered.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

The meteor has crashed.! Dazzling Diwali fireworks have come to an end!! Jamadagneya is BANNED!!!.

This is an epilogue offered to a firebrand, though short-lived , which could rekindle sparks in ashy embers.

With deep regrets I have to say that this is the result of impatience and haste both on the part of the banned member and the moderators.

Moderators have gone a little overboard.They could have waited for some more time; they cold have allowed his postings with stricter editings and moderations. There are many members who empathise with his thoughts , though they were not fully supportive to his method of presentation. Good counsel were coming from members. Emotions could have been mollified gradually. I think by banning Jamadagneya, TB Com lost a sincere , promising member. We cannot absolve ourselves from that sin.

Mature minds could have understood the false courage available behind the invisible anonymity of an open forum., which the member was exploiting . The surge of emotions expressed in the lines posted by him only betrayed a sincere but still raw thought process.
I did not have any doubt about the intentions or ulterior motives of the member. It was possibly the uncorking of pent up emotions of a victimized mind and body, which surged out and flashed all over. The lava could have cooled off with some frothing from the side of members and moderators.

Even our Independence struggle history has Bhagat Singh and Subhash Bose apart from Gandhiji and Nehruji. While we highly honour and rever Gandhiji as Rashtra pita., a good number of hearts have still space for Bahgat and Bose.

TB community needs energized minds and bodies along with mature and seasoned leaders. Jamdagneya was in reality a firefly,(with genuine light) ,but wanted to be a flashlight.

All through I was appealing for moderation in language and content, for the sake of well conducting of the site and forum and to save the site,forum, from collapse and infiltration and intervention.

There were times when I also felt disappointed in seeing the topics and discussion going to irrelevant territories, derailing the main goal. But I still participated to see the forum flourish with positive members and their contributions.

Here I have no other alternative ,but to concur with Saptajihwa,
(msg no.194 “I have seen aimless counters to an argument, in this thread and others, which not only divert the topic, but also open up a totally different dimension of what was originally the intent of the poster.”
Msg no.171 “I must say that I refrained from posting as the discussions in this forum were becoming more and more of a light banter, teethering towards anti-brahminism and brahminical practices. Your posts made me to pen this post.”

To use some exaggerated similies,
I have a rising doubt ,that torpedoes are ready and waiting to sink the ship called TB.com.,and any focused and positive move to help the TB community.

God Forbid.

Regards

P.S
Is there any way to reprieve and revive the member in the forum? This is only a well intended appeal put to all members.

 

[pannvalan]

After mulling for a long time, I venture to post this.

I carefully watched the progress of this thread dispassionately, without taking sides. I was very happy to receive fresh valuable inputs in terms of useful information, effervescent thoughts and the raw force in them. But, everything ended abruptly, to the dismay of others.

The lessons that were learnt through this episode are:

1. Expression of truth must be moderated by presentation which will come with
maturity and pragmatism and adjustment with the rest of the society.

2. One to one discussion, if allowed beyond certain lengths, will heat up the
minds and words and will result in personal duel and will cause loss and destruction
on either side - some visible and some invisible.

3. Too much of anything is good for nothing. Concise postings would not have
caused this much damage, I am sure. Verbose write-ups many a time results in
unintentional hurts and the resultant reaction.

4. A year ago itself, I suggested some self-regulations for the members but sadly,
they did not find favour with many of the members.

5. When the moderators also participate in a thread as a member, not as a
moderator, they must be extra-cautious. The reason being, if anything turns
personal, the moderator in them comes to life, immediately. Understand what I
say?

6. Instead of suspending or banning a member, the controversial thread could have
been forcibly closed midway, once the sparks lead to an inferno.

7. I am sorry to say this. Please excuse me, as I cannot avoid saying it. A member
who is neither from our community nor from our land, for which the very site runs,
should not have accepted the challenges thrown by another member, because of
the tricky issues involved. Instead of giving point-by-point rebuttal, a simple
denial would have served the same purpose. This is because of the sensitivities of the present case, concerning the historical, geographical and cultural
and linguistic nuances, niceties and subtleties of the Tamil Brahmins community.

8. Many members fail to distinguish between the lofty goals and ideals of the society
and the stark reality today. For instance, abolition of castes is a good objective.
But, can we do it, in the near future? Whether we like it or not, we have to
tolerate and digest certain bitter aspects of life, because they are not under our
control and the world has never been a perfect place to live in and it cannot be
too.

My mind should think of good, noble things but I cannot close my eyes to the
rough and uneven nature of the path I walk through.

9. Let us do some introspection. Why so many members are getting banned for the
past 1 year or so? Where does the fault lie? Do we have to spruce up our system
or ourselves? Or any indoctrination to the new members with illustrations is
required,at the time of their joining this forum?

10. Loss of fresh blood and thoughts is a painful experience. But, increased hopes and
and prolonged expectations only deepen the sorrow further.

As an ordinary member, I do not know on what basis, the decisions of editing, deletion and banning take place and whether such decisions are of one individual or a group of individuals also are not known to me. But, I request for some amount of greater transparency on this score.

My thanks and namaskarams to all.

 

[Nara]

I had promised myself to be a spectator, not a participant. I am still not entirely comfortable to come back into the mix. However, the recent fireworks burnt away some of my restraint.

What we saw was the current face of Brahminism. It is disheartening that many adore this face. Obviously, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Even those who saw some things unsightly want only to put some more makeup -- tone it down, don't call names, etc. In fact there was not a whole lot of personal name calling at all -- the figurative cool-aid and smoking are nothing in relation to the whole point of the eloquence.

IMHO, such ideas must be countered, not moderated or banned, but that is my predictable pet peeve. These ideas must be allowed to be freely expressed so that the true face is fully visible, radiant to some and abhorrent to others like myself.

Kunjuppu just wanted to have none of it, துஷ்டனைக் கண்டால் தூர விலகு, was his attitude. That left brave HH to battle alone and she did a magnificent job, kudos.

IMHO, the long term wellbeing of the members of TB community lies diametrically on the other side of the ideas espoused in this dust storm.

Love will enhance the self-interest of TB community, not tribalism.

 

[pannvalan]

Do you say that indianised, westernised mongrel, for instance, is not name calling?

 

[padmanabsridharr]

SAIRAM. Thank you. May I request other members also to go through my father's (நாகை வை. ராமஸ்வாமி) article 'பிராமண துவேஷம் வேண்டாமே' in chennaionline.com/tamil under 'பத்திகள்'. I am a junior member and thanks for an opportunity for expression of our views. I have spent my 25 years of life till 2001 in Mumbai with my parents and ONLY BECAUSE WE DID NOT LIKE UGLY POLITICS-BASED BRAHMIN BASHING AND CERTAIN OTHER LIVING CONDITIONS IN TAMIL NADU, we preferred to settle in Bangalore. Now, I am on an assignment in Singapore with my retired parents enjoying the public-friendly governance and ABSOLUTELY COMFORTABLE AND NON-CORRUPT, SYSTEM BASED, CLEAN AND NEAT LIVING CONDITIONS with no ill-will or hatred against other communities. For their own reasons of vested interests, the other groups have exploited the non-existent Dravidian-Aryan divide invented by Britishers and have started their 'hate brahmin' policy periodically encouraging and fanning it unfortunately and dangerously. This has caused deep in-roads of the general public taking for granted the 'make-belief' lies. This is prevalent only in Tamilnadu whereas in other States, Brahmins are well-respected. Request members to view Tamilhindu.com site where the other group's malafide intentions are exposed. Now as for their contention of Brahmins ill-treating them ages and ages ago, nobody knows the facts. Even if it be so, it is a thing of the past. Brahmins are not following the principles and are not living as Brahmins. There are adulterations in every 3 out of 5 brahmin families, but Brahmins DO ADHERE TO THE DHARMIC PRINCIPLES and are always pious, religious, reasonable and peace-loving group. Brahmins have started mingling. In fact, we have Muslim Friends one of whom has stayed with us with his family and we also have visited them. He was the one who got printed and distributed among devotees my Father's Ambal Neelayadakshi Songs every year. His songs are in an album titled "Amudhame Kumudhame" and are placed in the Devotional Songs list of Tamil Brahmins site and members can listen to them. For all these and more reasons, IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNFAIR to ill-treat, discourage and look down as non-tamils on a community whose mother-tongue is also Tamil and denying them many benefits based on caste. Brahmins of Tamilnadu should fight for their rights legally for their recognition; let them also be granted a quota otherwise for various requirements like admission to Colleges etc. TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.
Thanks for an opportunity and Kind Regards
Sairam.
Padmanab Sridhar