How to counter brahmin bashing??

[guruprasadtr]

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I want to start a thread to report instances of brahmin bashing on the web and discuss how to counter such hate rhetoric. I request you friends to report such instances here and exchange ideas on how to counter them.

I want to bring one such instance to your notice where a collegemate of mine was blaming us.

She is a daughter of a DK member /atheist. Her argument was that it was the fault of brahmins that women who are having monthly periods are not allowed to enter temples.

I replied that no such restriction exists in temples and it was the wish of the devotees that they did not go to temples during such a time, probably because they did not feel clean and avoided going to temples out of reverence to gods who them hold in high esteem. No matter how much i argued, i could not convince her and we do not get along well after that.

Please put in your comments on this incident or if you had experienced similar situations

Thanks,
Guru

 

[kunjuppu]

guru,

please note, that we will monitor this thread carefully.

we do not want this thread to turn into a political or social platform. neither do we want this to be a plank to heap abuse on fellow tamil hindu communities.

there are always extremes in any society. your experience is from an extreme of one kind.

you have to come to terms, that there are certain folks, who will never see reason.

hopefully, we see some positive and constructive suggestions here for you from other members.
we hope that this thread does not become a receptacle of who has a more horror story than the next.

guru, also, in order to exhibit your good faith, we the moderators, expect you to comment, react to many of the comments that may be posted here. so, please monitor replies and comment on them.

thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Shri Guruprasad,

This is a fairly common topic that comes up while talking to sikh or lingayath women. Menstruation does not restrict them from offering prayers. They (to me, rightly) reason out that even a person with viral fever is as "sick" as a menstruating person, and if a menstruating woman feels healthy, there shd be nothing stopping her from praying and going about daily activities. And i notice that women of these communities feel quite proud that they are allowed to do so, unlike hindus in general.

Let us not forget that in the old days the hygiene part was no good (no sanitary pads and such stuff), so it may have made sense to isolate the menstruating person, esp from entering the kitchen. But today with hygiene washes and all that, it may not make sense to isolate women on menstruation grounds.

Generally women discuss it as a 'hindu' thing since restricting a menstruating women from entering kitchen, praying, etc is/used to be common to all hindu communities (not a specifically brahmin thing). Looks like you argued with the wrong person.

 

[akura]

We need not bother much about the people who have no faith at all .
Even if we explain them with the logic behind , they will
switch over to some other topic to condemn us. It is their mind at last
which decides to oppose . So need not feel much pain about
these things . Mostly our current world is influenced by male chauvinism.
There are lot of things that a women can find fault with not only in temple .

 

[RVR]

Brahmin bashing is going on for decades and most of us here have learnt live with it. The best way to insult them is ignoring them. Let us not play into their hands. Particularly if they start targeting our ladies, we have to be much more careful.

Let us concentrate on development activities instead of wasting time in arguing with them

All the best

 

[pannvalan]

My thoughts are here.

1. Dont get provoked unncessarily.

2. Reacting to silly, baseless comments will make us land in trouble.

3. Ignoring is the best way of insulting.

4. When the targeted person doesn't respond, the initiator's guns will fall silent.

5. However, if physically manhandled or harassed, we have not face it resolutely,
drawing support from like-minded persons/circles.

Unfortunately, those who legislate for the country are mostly NBs and we may not receive legal (police/judiciary) and media support and only disappointment will be the result.

 

[vijivenkatraman]

Pranams
First I want to tell that every custom&habit followed by our community have reasons. We may not be taught about those. My thinking is that, the reason why the ladies are separated and they will not go to temples during their mensural periods are many. First , in joint families there were many ladies, each one of them can take rest in ‘their’ days,
Sometimes making broomsticks,cleaning garden will be done in that period. Second,
think of the costumes worn by ladies while going to temple. The silk sari may get spoilt, decorating themselves with rich ornaments and flowers too can tempt their men. Third doctors are telling that women in ‘their’ periods due to the harmone imbalance often gets irritation,anger, and drowsy sometimes. If proper rest is taken in those days( as they have no rest on Sundays,holidays and no retirement from the household) they get recharged.

regards

 

[ravin]

The reasons for 'Brahmin bashing' are very simple... It's because people with political motives need to create an oppressor and an oppressed to rule the masses. This is to prove to the 'oppressed' people that these 'leaders' are trying save the poor 'oppressed' people from their 'oppressors'. Hence such people with political ideas always try to target communities that do not fight back as it is easier for them to label them as oppressors and make scape goats out of them. The Nazis chose the Jews as they did not fight back. As our brother Venkatramani rightly said above - we should not play into the hands of such ignorant people. In India it was the landlords and other such other powerful people that oppressed people but these so called atheists and powerful political leaders did not have the courage to target them lest they be beheaded by them. Hence they aimed at the poor Brahmin who only said 'Bhavati Bhikshandehi'! The culture, traditions and the Sattva Guna that runs in our blood should be never given up. Jealousy is another major factor causing Brahmin bashing. Quite a large percentage of the Brahmin community belong to the lower middle class level and yet these Brahmin kids do so well in studies. The solution is not arguing with such people who attack us but to communicate to these ignorant people in a very sophisticated and polished way our ideas through deeds than through words..........

 

[Eastern Mind]

Pranams
First I want to tell that every custom&habit followed by our community have reasons. We may not be taught about those. My thinking is that, the reason why the ladies are separated and they will not go to temples during their mensural periods are many. First , in joint families there were many ladies, each one of them can take rest in ‘their’ days,
Sometimes making broomsticks,cleaning garden will be done in that period. Second,
think of the costumes worn by ladies while going to temple. The silk sari may get spoilt, decorating themselves with rich ornaments and flowers too can tempt their men. Third doctors are telling that women in ‘their’ periods due to the harmone imbalance often gets irritation,anger, and drowsy sometimes. If proper rest is taken in those days( as they have no rest on Sundays,holidays and no retirement from the household) they get recharged.

regards

Some of the customs have their mystical reasons. This is one of them. Its not just menstrual blood, but all blood. The inner beings from the second and third world that 'hover' in and around temples and shrine rooms recognise blood. In this plane, blood begets blood. Wars continue. Violence begets violence. In the realms of the ocean, it is well know that if you want to attack sharks, you put out a lot of blood from fish. With the keen sense of smell, and instinctive drive, the sharks come. In national parks in Canada, inside booklets that are guides to back country camping, there is a specific warning to menstruating women about bears. Bears can smell much better than humans and are more likely to attack a menstruating woman simple because of the blood smell.

These same concepts also applu to unseen worlds. We burn incense, offer flowers, sing music, etc., to attract devonic forces. Menstrual blood, as well as body odor, plain dirt, etc., mystically attracts the not-so-devonic forces. That is the real reason for this custom. Of course much ot this mystical knowledge has been lost due to the over intellectualisation of our religion by foreign forces.

 

[Nara]

think of the costumes worn by ladies while going to temple. The silk sari may get spoilt, decorating themselves with rich ornaments and flowers too can tempt their men.

Spoken like a true Taliban, men may get tempted

I hope you know that silk sarees and ornaments are not a must when visiting temples.

Third doctors are telling that women in ‘their’ periods due to the harmone imbalance often gets irritation,anger, and drowsy sometimes.

Why is isolation and separation by at least 8 feet necessary for this?

.... Its not just menstrual blood, but all blood. The inner beings from the second and third world that 'hover' in and around temples and shrine rooms recognise blood. In this plane, blood begets blood. Wars continue. Violence begets violence.

Wow! O! Canada!

Cheers!

 

[silverfox]

Dear Ms. Happyhindu:

Who are these lingayath women and where are they from? Are they not Hindus? The reason of my question is you say that "women of these communities are ...allowed to do so, unlike hindus in general.

I personally feel that menstruation is a natural phenomena and anybody should be able to go to the temple and worship if they want to.

Shri Guruprasad,

This is a fairly common topic that comes up while talking to sikh or lingayath women. Menstruation does not restrict them from offering prayers. They (to me, rightly) reason out that even a person with viral fever is as "sick" as a menstruating person, and if a menstruating woman feels healthy, there shd be nothing stopping her from praying and going about daily activities. And i notice that women of these communities feel quite proud that they are allowed to do so, unlike hindus in general.

Let us not forget that in the old days the hygiene part was no good (no sanitary pads and such stuff), so it may have made sense to isolate the menstruating person, esp from entering the kitchen. But today with hygiene washes and all that, it may not make sense to isolate women on menstruation grounds.

Generally women discuss it as a 'hindu' thing since restricting a menstruating women from entering kitchen, praying, etc is/used to be common to all hindu communities (not a specifically brahmin thing). Looks like you argued with the wrong person.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Ms. Happyhindu:

Who are these lingayath women and where are they from? Are they not Hindus? The reason of my question is you say that "women of these communities are ...allowed to do so, unlike hindus in general.

I personally feel that menstruation is a natural phenomena and anybody should be able to go to the temple and worship if they want to.

Sir,

Lingayaths: Lingayatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They are found in Karnataka.

Hindus in general i meant were the the non-sikh, non-lingayath women i know of. Generally in conversations, we neither feel proud about it nor un-proud about it, and most women (who i know) do not really seem to have an opinion about it. Its just an observation on my part and somehow i felt that the sikhs and lingayaths seem quite proud abt saying that their women are not prevented from cooking, praying, daily activities during menstruation.

Personally i do not go into the prayer room during menstruation, because that's the way i was raised. But i don't think i will influence the younger female folk with what i feel consider as my comfort zone. If my daughter feels healthy and comfortable, she can very well go abt her daily life, including praying, during those days.

 

[happyhindu]

Some of the customs have their mystical reasons. This is one of them. Its not just menstrual blood, but all blood. The inner beings from the second and third world that 'hover' in and around temples and shrine rooms recognise blood. In this plane, blood begets blood. Wars continue. Violence begets violence. In the realms of the ocean, it is well know that if you want to attack sharks, you put out a lot of blood from fish. With the keen sense of smell, and instinctive drive, the sharks come. In national parks in Canada, inside booklets that are guides to back country camping, there is a specific warning to menstruating women about bears. Bears can smell much better than humans and are more likely to attack a menstruating woman simple because of the blood smell.

These same concepts also applu to unseen worlds. We burn incense, offer flowers, sing music, etc., to attract devonic forces. Menstrual blood, as well as body odor, plain dirt, etc., mystically attracts the not-so-devonic forces. That is the real reason for this custom. Of course much ot this mystical knowledge has been lost due to the over intellectualisation of our religion by foreign forces.

Eastern Mind,

Bears and Sharks apart, we are talking about kitchens and shrine-rooms within our own home.

Am just curious about this:
"The inner beings from the second and third world that 'hover' in and around temples and shrine rooms recognise blood."

Please could you elaborate on the inner beings from the 2nd and 3rd world. This is first time i have come across something like this.

Personally, i dunno if at all there are any such beings...i feel that if someone is approaching God why worry abt all other things.

 

[Eastern Mind]

Eastern Mind,

Bears and Sharks apart, we are talking about kitchens and shrine-rooms within our own home.

Am just curious about this:
"The inner beings from the second and third world that 'hover' in and around temples and shrine rooms recognise blood."

Please could you elaborate on the inner beings from the 2nd and 3rd world. This is first time i have come across something like this.

Personally, i dunno if at all there are any such beings...i feel that if someone is approaching God why worry abt all other things.

Vanakkam, Namaskaram: The bears and sharks was just an analogy. I realise we are talking about kitchens, shrine rooms, and temples.

Many people would be with you, on the rationalist side. So this is a very difficult argument/discussion to get into. On one side we have knowledge from mystics, or direct experience of such things. On the other side we have intellect, and rational argument. If I tell you I've seen beings or had mystical experiences within temples, you can just say you think I'm full of crap. Which, of course, is your right.

Firstly, the Hindus are not the only ancient culture to practise some sort of menstrual custom with regard to religion. The native American first people's, the Jews, and others do as well. I suggest you do a bit of research on the net to find out more. The reasons turn out to be quite similar from culture to culture. But in the grand scheme of things, its little to worry about. Its like a larger wave, or a lightning storm. Not pleasant, but also not something you want to walk directly into.

As far as inner beings go, many are souls between births. Ghosts, if you will. If you believe in reincarnation, its relatively logical to think souls might 'hover' around. And just like on this plane, there are those who are helpful, and those who aren't. What else are you supposed to do between births? But of course many rationalists also don't beleive in reincarnation.

Other beings are Gods or Mahadevas. When you go to a temple, don't you feel a 'presence'? Many people do. Not just me. Otherwise there would be no reason to visit Palani or Tiruchendur or Tirupati. And what is this presence? It's an inner being, a great soul, who can bless in so many seen and unseen ways.

Now again, you may say I'm just full of it. Again, this is your right. But my experience has been my experience. Do you remember the Ganesha milk miracle of about 15 or 20 years back. There is still debate whether or not it actually happened. And so life goes on. Until you actually have some kind of experience of this kind, you will remain a non-believer in it. I don't argue in circles, so unless you want some further kind of viewpoint on this, please don't respond with counter arguments. That is your right and I accept that.

Aum Shantih

Aum Namasivaya

 

[happyhindu]

Eastern mind,

Vanakkam, Namaskaram: The bears and sharks was just an analogy. I realise we are talking about kitchens, shrine rooms, and temples.

Many people would be with you, on the rationalist side. So this is a very difficult argument/discussion to get into. On one side we have knowledge from mystics, or direct experience of such things. On the other side we have intellect, and rational argument. If I tell you I've seen beings or had mystical experiences within temples, you can just say you think I'm full of crap. Which, of course, is your right.

am neither a rationalist, nor getting into an argument / discussion with you, nor going to consider anything as crap unless heard out very well. the question was asked out of plain curiosity.

Firstly, the Hindus are not the only ancient culture to practise some sort of menstrual custom with regard to religion. The native American first people's, the Jews, and others do as well. I suggest you do a bit of research on the net to find out more. The reasons turn out to be quite similar from culture to culture. But in the grand scheme of things, its little to worry about. Its like a larger wave, or a lightning storm. Not pleasant, but also not something you want to walk directly into.

no comment

As far as inner beings go, many are souls between births. Ghosts, if you will. If you believe in reincarnation, its relatively logical to think souls might 'hover' around. And just like on this plane, there are those who are helpful, and those who aren't. What else are you supposed to do between births? But of course many rationalists also don't beleive in reincarnation.

that is why i am not a rationalist.

Other beings are Gods or Mahadevas. When you go to a temple, don't you feel a 'presence'? Many people do. Not just me. Otherwise there would be no reason to visit Palani or Tiruchendur or Tirupati. And what is this presence? It's an inner being, a great soul, who can bless in so many seen and unseen ways.

its common. otherwise who wud go to temples or pray. (to me), i wud not be bothered about beings, demigods and such stuff when approaching God.

Now again, you may say I'm just full of it. Again, this is your right. But my experience has been my experience. Do you remember the Ganesha milk miracle of about 15 or 20 years back. There is still debate whether or not it actually happened. And so life goes on. Until you actually have some kind of experience of this kind, you will remain a non-believer in it. I don't argue in circles, so unless you want some further kind of viewpoint on this, please don't respond with counter arguments. That is your right and I accept that.

i was curious to know abt the 2nd world and 3rd world. and inner beings from there. But never mind, looks like you do not want to answer.

Aum Shantih

Aum Namasivaya

 

[Eastern Mind]

Vanakkam:

Short version: The 2nd world is the astral plane, where souls between births dwell. The third world is the Sivaloka.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't sure where you were coming from but now I know (curiousity) I made some false assumptions. That was not my intention. And yes I agree that when approaching God, there is no need to wonder about other beings etc. God and God alone.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[RVR]

Hinduism is a way of life and not a religion. Different sects follow different practices. There is no hard and fast rule.

Best things is to get your doubts clarified from your elders or your Guru.

Great saints of last century Sri Seshadri Swamigal, Baghavan Ramana Maharishi and few others have simplified our practices further.

Let us not magnify few differences which may crop up during discussions.

All the best

 

[anandb]

Interesting thoughts from Eastern Mind. I have read there are the Trilokas - Swarga (Heaven), Naraka (Hell) and Tala (subterranean regions), each loka having a further 7 sub-divisions. Belonging to the Subterranean are 2 worlds Atala which is the abode of evil spirits and Mahatala - abode of pretas (ie) souls in between. I have no idea if they are the 2nd and 3rd worlds but Hindu Cosmology definitely talks about the existence of these different worlds with its inhabitants.

 

[happyhindu]

Vanakkam:

Short version: The 2nd world is the astral plane, where souls between births dwell. The third world is the Sivaloka.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I wasn't sure where you were coming from but now I know (curiousity) I made some false assumptions. That was not my intention. And yes I agree that when approaching God, there is no need to wonder about other beings etc. God and God alone.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind,

Thankyou for the reply.

Am sorry was just curious.

If you don't mind, could you please say something about how beings of the astral world and sivaloka are attracted by blood.

Am curious bcoz its sorta diff from what i came across.

Best regards.

 

[Eastern Mind]

Eastern Mind,

Thankyou for the reply.

Am sorry was just curious.

If you don't mind, could you please say something about how beings of the astral world and sivaloka are attracted by blood.

Am curious bcoz its sorta diff from what i came across.

Best regards.

Firstly, I am absolutely no expert on this. I am only going by things I have beenj told. Basically, as an adoptive, when we (my wife and I) encountered this custom we had to research it out. It is my understanding that beings of the Sivaloka would not be attracted. Only lower astral forces would be, and again, not 'dangerous' or bad, just more instinctive ones. I have been taught the opposite is true. Devas of higher vibration are attracted to incense, flowers, and the like. People who live a poor lifestyle such as promiscuity or alcoholism are also more likely to be affected by 'lower' astral forces. That is why we clean up for puja, temple etc.

Blood itself a 'lower' force. We don't find people using blood for abhishekam. My analogy to sharks and bears was an attempt to explain it, but it seems that didn't work. Perhaps the idea of fermones and sexual attraction would be a better analogy as it is more subtle. I remember teaching teenagers and watching the boys 'hover' around the girls, subconsciously, and not even aware that they were doing it, or why. It was quite subtle. This whole area of 'other beings' etc. is quite subtle. Have you ever stepped around the corner of a building,and just had the feeling that something was there? Maybe that will help.

Aum Namasivaya

 

[happyhindu]

Firstly, I am absolutely no expert on this. I am only going by things I have beenj told. Basically, as an adoptive, when we (my wife and I) encountered this custom we had to research it out. It is my understanding that beings of the Sivaloka would not be attracted. Only lower astral forces would be, and again, not 'dangerous' or bad, just more instinctive ones. I have been taught the opposite is true. Devas of higher vibration are attracted to incense, flowers, and the like. People who live a poor lifestyle such as promiscuity or alcoholism are also more likely to be affected by 'lower' astral forces. That is why we clean up for puja, temple etc.

Blood itself a 'lower' force. We don't find people using blood for abhishekam. My analogy to sharks and bears was an attempt to explain it, but it seems that didn't work. Perhaps the idea of fermones and sexual attraction would be a better analogy as it is more subtle. I remember teaching teenagers and watching the boys 'hover' around the girls, subconsciously, and not even aware that they were doing it, or why. It was quite subtle. This whole area of 'other beings' etc. is quite subtle. Have you ever stepped around the corner of a building,and just had the feeling that something was there? Maybe that will help.

Aum Namasivaya

Thankyou for the reply, Eastern Mind.

One example why i mentioned the veerashaivas or lingayaths was that they consider themselves to be pure shaivites. They wear the linga on their body, and its not restricted to men alone. I do not know if women remove the linga from their person during menstruation (the ladies i know do not). To them, the physical body is just a being.

Their concept as i understand seems to revolve around this: When there is union of the atma with the formless divine, and if the omnipresent divine is with us always, to protect us; and if god is there for his devotee no matter what the physical condition of his devotee is, then there is no need to segregate women during menstruation.

Am not sure why blood is considered a 'lower' force. Bengali women too, i hear, offer prayers to Kali irrespective of whether they are having periods or not. i certainly do not think women become unacceptable creatures to God during those 5 days.

Sometimes things just seem like cultural beliefs ingrained in us since young, and after a certain age or stage, it may not be easy to give it up or outgrow it (happens to be so in my case, am not really comfortable with offering prayers during menstruation, though i understand God loves us no matter what, and its no big deal really).

Some yoga schools consider both devas and asuras as our own instincts, with all the worlds being within us. To have a clutter-free mind, some people are asked to light incence, offer flowers to God, to keep their mind calm and clear before starting on the meditation practice. Over time, they outgrow this, as their mind gets rather 'freed up' of clutter and baggage with time. And they start off by offering prayers to God in their mind (manasa puja). And yes, generally i notice that such people do seem to have strong instincts and premonitions.

Have not come across info from those dealing in spirits, like mediums, as well as those doing past life regressions, that there are 'beings' attracted to blood from the astral plane (perhaps the astral place is considered a 'higher' plane maybe).

Pretas, i hear, are considered unsatisfied souls. Like say victims of murder or homicide. So they are sorta vengeful, and try to cause harm to seek revenge from those who had caused them harm. Did not come across info that they are 'attracted' to blood so far (will try to gather more info on this).

Blood happens or happened to be viewed as a 'vital force', as a positive energy, in quite a few cultures, including sections of hindusim in the past: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/2187-drinking-okay-4.html#post22203

Regards.

 

[vijisesh]

I believe that Bashing adds value to the brahmins soul , makes him strong and increases his tolerance capacity . I do not advocate strict sense of ahimsa as gandhi ji proposed to TB's but to a certain extent , definitely , yes.
One needs to be critical about the reason for such bashing - is it out of jealousy from the others that brahmins are so successful or is it for the reason that " they can be easily be made fun off , being mocked upon ?? " or is it just because of the TYPICAL mannerisms exhibited by the brahmin sample ? - what's attracting the opponent ?
If the bashing helps the brahmin to revise his strategies of presenting himself in a way appreciable by the society , then it is for his own good and for his society !
After all " No one kicks a dead dog !"

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

I am only going to comment on the main point-- that is brahmin bashing.

The natural tendency is to attack somebody who will not retaliate. The best is--- as
many earlier have pointed--- just to ignore. Stray dogs bark at sun. Sun shines and does its job. Brahmin bashing is only shadow boxing. The bashers are not able to take on their real enemies. Let us concentrate on our community work-- developing Brahmin community work.

 

[happyhindu]

now that this thread has attracted so many replies, can the thread initiator, shri guruprasad, say something (sir, you have not posted or contributed anything to the thread you started so far).

 

[sapthajihva]

We, the brahmins, have evolved in this category. The odds are against us - nobody to raise voice for injustice, if it is against a brahmin. Brute force would not help; anyway we are not a particularly large force . Naturally we chose the other option - minding our own business.

Anyway, brahmin bashing is an outburst of frenzied minds who cannot reflect calmly on situations. Or it is done by opportunists to seek some sort of personal or political gain.

Even if a brahmin retaliates - most certainly (s)he can - it may not be understood by other hostile minds.

It is a matter of individual ability - bash back if you have the knowledge and the courage. Else, get back to your scheme of things and make your life rosier.