How to counter brahmin bashing??

[Nara]

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When things get way too serious we all can use some lighthearted comments -- why second thoughts Kunjuppu?

 

[kunjuppu]

When things get way too serious we all can use some lighthearted comments -- why second thoughts Kunjuppu?

i think the second and third thoughts were ok.. at the fourth instance i chickened out.

not proud of it, as the response was my ready natural reparteeing self.

oh well !!! there is always another time ..

 

[sapthajihva]

Wow, I am refreshed by the truths about the gospels put forward painstakingly by the evangelical iyer@infosys... especially this one:

I have so many things to write, but this thread may not be the proper forum.

 

[padmanabsridharr]

பிராமண துவேஷம்

A related subject. My father Mr. V. Ramaswamy has written an article பிராமண துவேஷம்வேண்டாமே in chennaionline.com/tamil under பத்திகள் . Members can go through the same and also the comments made by many readers for and against.
Regards
Padmanab Sridhar

 

[RVR]

sri padmanabshridarr,

Please post the weblink url

All the best

 

[pbkhema]

I have to apologise first.I have not gone through all the posts in this thread.Brahmin bashing in Soth India the Brahmins are partially responsible by putting forward and empasising on their acharams and anushtanams in public.Many of the acharams are not prescribed by the grihya sutras. By flauntingthe acharams they give an appearance "of a holier that thou" picture.
The other main thing is when the community is reidculed in TV serials and movies we keep quite.We do not protest.Recently one community raised a hue and cry about the way a character in a movie said th belong to theor community was pictured
Avoid proclaiming uring aacharams in public and stand UNITED.
That is the only way

 

[ambes]

Thootruvor thootratum!! Pughazarvor Pughazhatum. Num vazhiye Nam chellvom.
iGNORE. DO NOT GIVE THEM IMPORTANCE

 

[[email protected]]

to All: The creater sent to the world all the time some person as his rep to teach the human being that you are all a small drop of the light of the ocean,and they teaching also the same, they may born any were in any country in any language,but the message is YOU ARE the Athma and your distiny is to merge with source. s.r.k.

 

[silverfox]

Not found

Hi Padmanabsridharr
When I went on this site and clicked 'pathikal', I found several authors but do not see your father's name or the article.
You may want to provide the exact URL.

A related subject. My father Mr. V. Ramaswamy has written an article பிராமண துவேஷம்வேண்டாமே in chennaionline.com/tamil under பத்திகள் . Members can go through the same and also the comments made by many readers for and against.
Regards
Padmanab Sridhar

 

[renuka]

humans bash each other when differences arise especially if they are from different backgrounds,communities, religion, races etc. and even if they are equal in everyway they will find personal faults and bash up each other. only equal vision will stop bashing of anykind
always remember the Gita Shloka
" vidyaa vinaya sampanne
braahmane gavi hastini
shuni caiva shvapaake ca
panditaah sama darshinah "

regarding menstruation.
in ancient days there were no sanitary pads, hence women had to be isolated and not allowed to particiapte in any rituals.
menstruation is not "unclean"
it is the shedding of the endometrial lining of the unimpregnated uterus on a monthly basis.
if the uterus had been impregnated, it would have been the very same endometrial lining which would nuture the developing embryo till the placenta is full formed and functional.
this is a purely medical explanation.
anyway many women in those days and even now tend to be anaemic and hence feel weak during menses and in those days temples used to be only reachable by foot or by bullock cart and no toilets were available to change the blood stained cloth used... hence not practical to be out of home ....my list can go on and on.
anyway it is up to the individual to decide whether she is clean or unclean as it is the Physical Body that menstruates and not the Pure True Self. but as long we are having our Physical Body certain rules and regulations need to be followed for general well being of the individual and society.

 

[kunjuppu]

...

regarding menstruation.
in ancient days there were no sanitary pads, hence women had to be isolated and not allowed to particiapte in any rituals.
menstruation is not "unclean"
it is the shedding of the endometrial lining of the unimpregnated uterus on a monthly basis.
if the uterus had been impregnated, it would have been the very same endometrial lining which would nuture the developing embryo till the placenta is full formed and functional.
this is a purely medical explanation.
anyway many women in those days and even now tend to be anaemic and hence feel weak during menses and in those days temples used to be only reachable by foot or by bullock cart and no toilets were available to change the blood stained cloth used... hence not practical to be out of home ....my list can go on and on.
anyway it is up to the individual to decide whether she is clean or unclean as it is the Physical Body that menstruates and not the Pure True Self. but as long we are having our Physical Body certain rules and regulations need to be followed for general well being of the individual and society.

renuka,

thank you for the post.

i think, perhaps, the issue re restrictions that women observed, in days of yore, can be explained with reason and reasoning..

the current focus here, is how should this purely physical phenomenon be observed today.

maybe i can parse it into its various aspects

- attaining puberty: still an occassion to be observed, however quietly in many TB households; still marked with auspicion, after the first three days. not sure if body education and hygiene training goes along with it too though

- professional: i think it is universally accepted to continue to work, go to school or even participate in sports (the latter might be with some reluctance)

- household work: this is pure drudgery. in its crudest form, the men would like to be considered 'emancipated' and allow the female to continue her work here (though for some, the concept of ritual impurity might be too much, to overcome their reluctance to cook)

- religious: clean the lamps; put kolam; go to temple; navrathri; weddings:

i think, in each of the above, our current practice, may differ from what our parents practised, and they in turn, from what their parents practised. each generation, it has changed, i think.

please let us know your general opinions re the various situations and current day realities. thank you.

 

[DURGADASAN]

Dear all,

Even the goddess shakti has her periods (Chengannoor bagavathy devi; Kamakya devi). It is a natural process, which should not be mingled with religious attire I think.

They will be saying that girls came forward to get a portion (quarter) of Indra's brahmahatthi dosha and because of that they got these periods. Such a sign of compassion is this. Instead they got the boon of having union with their partner, even if they are in family way. The others are earth, trees, and water. Earth's part of curse- We wicked minded people; Boon- she can fill up the burrows created by herself. Tree's part of curse- the gum; Boon- it can grow even if you cut. Water's part of curse- the bubbles; Boon- it can wash off anything it sees.
Like this the legend goes and there is nothing to find fault in this. Since, they feel much tired these days, they were isolated and provided complete rest from household activities. My mom tell to us this by "Rest" only.

Pranams.

 

[Nara]

... Since, they feel much tired these days, they were isolated and provided complete rest from household activities.

Hello Durgadasan,

If rest was the primary reason there would be no need to separate them and make them sleep in the rezi or kollapuram.

The origin of this separation is perhaps the fear of this strange phenomenon among the ancients. Tamils were excessively fixated on such things, assigning special powers like aNangu etc. For Brahmins this fit in very well with their expertise in theettu.

The modern apology for this practice is "it is just rest".

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

QUOTE=kunjuppu;30143]renuka,

thank you for the post.

i think, perhaps, the issue re restrictions that women observed, in days of yore, can be explained with reason and reasoning..

the current focus here, is how should this purely physical phenomenon be observed today.

maybe i can parse it into its various aspects

- attaining puberty: still an occassion to be observed, however quietly in many TB households; still marked with auspicion, after the first three days. not sure if body education and hygiene training goes along with it too though

- professional: i think it is universally accepted to continue to work, go to school or even participate in sports (the latter might be with some reluctance)

- household work: this is pure drudgery. in its crudest form, the men would like to be considered 'emancipated' and allow the female to continue her work here (though for some, the concept of ritual impurity might be too much, to overcome their reluctance to cook)

- religious: clean the lamps; put kolam; go to temple; navrathri; weddings:

i think, in each of the above, our current practice, may differ from what our parents practised, and they in turn, from what their parents practised. each generation, it has changed, i think.

please let us know your general opinions re the various situations and current day realities. thank you.[/QUOTE]

dear sir,
i am going to state purely my own personal view and i do not want to impose them on anyone because there might be reasons unknown to me about ancient practices with regards to menstruation.

• puberty is a complex process and the the commencement of menstruation is called Menarche to be exact.Puberty per say denotes the transition of childhood to adolescence( not womanhood yet as womanhood needs psychological maturity too) in the life of a female. this transition is celebrated in our culture to welcome the change and also as an indirect announcement that the girl is of a marriageable age.

its our culture to celebrate/observe every change or step in our life right from conception till death.

• with regards to work, work on a professional basis should go on as usual otherwise employing a woman would be of little economic value if they are going to be absent during menses.no doubt few women suffer from severe menstrual cramps(dysmennorhoea) which could render them unfit for work during menses but with modern medicine and treatment options available these problems can be remedified.
• housework and cooking should not be a problem if general basic hygiene is practised in a household by both man and woman.which includes

1. regular bathing with clean water and soap
2. changing sanitary pad on interval basis
3. safe and hygienic disposal of sanitary pad
4. washing of hands including under fingernails with every visit to the toilet for both men and women to prevent feco oral transmission of bacteria esp E coli.

as long the 3 basic purity of cooking is maintained that is

1. purity in the means of obtaining food
2. purity of the person cooking (physical and mental)
3. purity of vessels used and kitchen cleanliness

as i had mentioned in my earlier thread that menstruation is a physiological process and not "unclean" provided the basic hygiene i mentioned above are practised which should not cause any problems in a menstruating women to prepare food.

• cleaning of lamps should not be a problem as lamps are made of inert inanimate objects which do not pick up any so called unpleasent auras
• kolams are for the benefit of ants, insects and birds hence should be carried out as usual and they should not be deprived of their share when the woman of the house is menstruating.
• going to wedding in a hall should not be a problem
• going to temple should purely be up to the individual.if one thinks she is unclean then she is unclean and vice versa
• i on a personal basis feel that the body is the temple of God and God does not choose to abandon me on the days i menstruate.

 

[kunjuppu]

thank you renuka.

excellent replies. much appreciated.

 

[RVR]

i on a personal basis feel that the body is the temple of God and God does not choose to abandon me on the days i menstruate.

Great Saint Thirumoolar has said the same thing

உள்ளம் ஒரு பெருங்கோயில் ஊன் உடம்பு ஆலயமாம்

Thirumoolar is the second poet after Agasthiar who wrote thousands of years back stating that our heart is the seat of God and our body is the temple.

All the best

 

[padmanabsridharr]

பிராமண துவேஷம்

This is a reply to Mr. R. Venkataramani who has asked for url of my father's article in the site chennaionline.com/tamil on the above subject.

?????? ??????? ???????? : ?????? ??????? ????????!

Thanks and Regards
Padmanab Sridhar

 

[padmanabsridharr]

Dear Sir: the link for Brahmana Dhwesham article by my father Sri V. Ramaswamy -
?????? ??????? ???????? : ?????? ??????? ????????!
Thanks for your interest. Kind Regards
Padmanab Srikdhar

 

[padmanabsridharr]

Dear Sir: I tried twice invain to send you the url for my father's article in chennaionline.com/tamil site but it is not reflecting correctly - some technical prob. Anyway, if you go this site and click பத்திகள், you will find a few articles written by him including Brahmana Dhwesham Vendame as also under ஆன்மீகம், he has written about Nagapattinam Neelayadakshi Amman Temple and also a Suprabatham song for the Deity. Thanks and Regards
Padmanab Sridhar

 

[Jamadagneya]

Yo Moderator!

guru,

please note, that we will monitor this thread carefully.

we do not want this thread to turn into a political or social platform. neither do we want this to be a plank to heap abuse on fellow tamil hindu communities.

there are always extremes in any society. your experience is from an extreme of one kind.

you have to come to terms, that there are certain folks, who will never see reason.

hopefully, we see some positive and constructive suggestions here for you from other members.
we hope that this thread does not become a receptacle of who has a more horror story than the next.

guru, also, in order to exhibit your good faith, we the moderators, expect you to comment, react to many of the comments that may be posted here. so, please monitor replies and comment on them.

thank you.

Precisely the self-censoring self-regulating "Can't do" attitude holding the community back. Without a holocaust museum, or holocaust rememberance efforts, people will forget. If the photos of Auschwitz and Treblinka had not come out, the West wouldn't have lost its Jew hatred. Isn't there a Brahman Holocaust since the days of the Justice part? So, let there be horror stories. Let them strengthen our resolve. We don't care about extremes in a society. We care that the average Brahmin has constitutionally sanction discrimination against him in India, his home; but is protected by anti-discrimination laws as a minority in the rest of the world.

I can agree with not heaping abuse on other communities. We want only our fair share. And why mustn't this thread turn into a social platform? Is this just supposed to be a social-chat room website, an e-coffee-club? Or can this website be useful? Aren't you moderators interested in self-preservation and survivalism? The most basic instinct of all animals?

 

[venkatpasupathy]

I am afraid that this very site is a socoial platform. so let us discuss social issues without hurting the sentiments of other religion,community, social groups etc., Venkat

 

[Raghy]

I want to start a thread to report instances of brahmin bashing on the web and discuss how to counter such hate rhetoric. I request you friends to report such instances here and exchange ideas on how to counter them.

I want to bring one such instance to your notice where a collegemate of mine was blaming us.

She is a daughter of a DK member /atheist. Her argument was that it was the fault of brahmins that women who are having monthly periods are not allowed to enter temples.

I replied that no such restriction exists in temples and it was the wish of the devotees that they did not go to temples during such a time, probably because they did not feel clean and avoided going to temples out of reverence to gods who them hold in high esteem. No matter how much i argued, i could not convince her and we do not get along well after that.

Please put in your comments on this incident or if you had experienced similar situations

Thanks,
Guru

Sri Guruprasad,

Did your friend prove brahmins fault in that matter? If she produced concrete evidences to prove her claim, then you may have to concede. However, my experience with DK points to one direction only- that is, it is the policy for DK to eradicate brahmin community altogether. DK consists of the most irrational people who call themselves 'rational people'. It is a pity you had to have a long discussion to convince her; usually, I ask them to prove their claims since they make the claim in the first place. Brahmin community is a minority and tend to be soft in nature. So, they are targeted. I had many experiences with them turning the situation ridiculous. But, I was bit different. I could talk rationalism more than the DK members could imagine. I know, my post is not very helpful; more like a rambling. Sorry.

 

[Raghy]

I am afraid that this very site is a socoial platform. so let us discuss social issues without hurting the sentiments of other religion,community, social groups etc., Venkat

Sri Venkatapasupathy,

When we discuss social issues more often than not we will have to expose the truth of the religion or community in question. Sentiments would not only get hurt but may get trampled upon. To avoid such scenarios, we may as well discuss about local weather only (not about the global warming though! I found that too turned in to an heated debate, once). Please don't get offended by my comment. I am only pointing out the bare truth.

 

[Jamadagneya]

Brahmins have little to do with barring women from temples during their periods. If anyone who has studied ancient religions (many of which don't exist now like Mithraism, Egyptian religion etc), it is clear that the periods were associated with rejuvenation- something like a butterfly in a pupa before it emerged as a butterfly. Many religions had various rules and practices about monthly periods, waxing and waning of the moon, solstices etc, such as the ancient Irish and even Native Americans.

Consider the isolationist Malana greek community of Kulu valley, who have maintained their religious practices unchanged since the time of the Indo-Greeks in 2nd century BC. They have very different practices.

The basic theme about all these practices was that "the woman rested, did penance, strengthened herself and emerged stronger" and rejuvenated. In fact, considering the Earth, a mother, some cultures even observed "periods" for the Earth-mother, when there were dry spells etc. There was also the visible physical toll on women by PMS etc. So, they were not considered "strong enough" for religious rites on the period days, just as a man with a fever would not be. Would an ancient warrior with a fever try to fight a battle? Recall the importance "bathing off" after a major illness has, for both men and women. This is how it started. Even in Hinduism, if you look at the oldest meaning, it was taken to be a sign of rejuvenation, not uncleanness. In this sense, the rules were made in religious practices. The common understanding that "periods=unclean=bias against women" is wrong. "periods=rejuvenation=a time for rest=bias for women" is the original. In time, just as many things got corrupted or confused, such as varnashrama, this also got muddled up.

Brahmins as the liturgical community become the "moral or theological" police too. So, they take the blame for it. But the policeman did not make the laws. The legislators elected by the people did. Explain this difference always to Brahmin bashers. Just like policemen are a very small number of the population, Brahmins have also always been a very small number. They can't have spread "evil" practices in the first place. Then again, many religious and cultural practices have gotten corrupted, which again isnt the fault of Brahmins. For example, everytime there is a caste riot in TamilNad, how many Brahmins were rioting or caused the riots? So, why blame Brahmins.

With all that being said, please understand that religion is based on faith. It is beyond any rationalist inquiry, such as the poster who said "my body is my temple... etc etc..". There may be things you agree with in religion- any religion- and those you don't agree with. There will be things we don't fully get. Take the case of Christianity requiring bonnets for women in services, while men should remove hats in church. So, whether you "get" them or not, religion is supposed to be beyond scrutiny by its adherents and you should "follow" what it dictates. You can't pick and choose. Women are barred from studying Vedas, like in many other religions. If women want to study Vedas in the modern day, and want it to be part of Hindu religion it can't be- there will need to be a new movement that accepts that- like Unitarian denomination inside Christianity- or like Brahmo Samajis etc. Religion is for pure faith. If you can't agree with its tenets, you need to step out. If you still want to be in your religion, join a denomination suitable to you, or start one that is. If from the inside, you raise stormy petrel arguments- understand two things a) Religion is not science, that needs to defend every single word said. Religion claims God's authority and God is not answerable to anyone b) If you as a Brahmin, who is under attack in India, question Hinduism, also under attack in India, you are doing something insidious and destructive. It is not in your interest as the conscience keeping community of Hinduism. Don't like something? Breakaway and reform it to suit your taste. Don't hurt everyone by bashing from within.

For example, consider my personal position on this matter: I don't think cloistering during periods is because women are unclean then or some such. But, as religious injunctions and practices clearly stipulate rules for those periods, I observe those rules under my roof, for the girls and women in my family, without causing them any disrespect of discomfort- e.g. they have the run of my house, only the orthodox puja area is always cloistered- for women and men. If I strongly felt some practice was unfair or illogical, I would breakoff etc., than criticize. I don't have sons till day; but that doesn't mean, I can initiate my daughters into fire sacrifices- they can inherit my house when I die, but not my family name- as legal rights are different from religious rights and so on- as in other countries and other religions.

If you can't accept a religion or believe in it fully- nothing piecemeal- there is no point in your staying within that religion.
So, if you have any disagreements with orthodox religious practices, if they are too big for you to accept or digest, gently step out, than rock a boat that is already in troubled waters.

 

[kunjuppu]

Precisely the self-censoring self-regulating "Can't do" attitude holding the community back. Without a holocaust museum, or holocaust rememberance efforts, people will forget. If the photos of Auschwitz and Treblinka had not come out, the West wouldn't have lost its Jew hatred. Isn't there a Brahman Holocaust since the days of the Justice part? So, let there be horror stories. Let them strengthen our resolve. We don't care about extremes in a society. We care that the average Brahmin has constitutionally sanction discrimination against him in India, his home; but is protected by anti-discrimination laws as a minority in the rest of the world.

I can agree with not heaping abuse on other communities. We want only our fair share. And why mustn't this thread turn into a social platform? Is this just supposed to be a social-chat room website, an e-coffee-club? Or can this website be useful? Aren't you moderators interested in self-preservation and survivalism? The most basic instinct of all animals?

jama,

i think we should keep our perspectives here only for TBs. pan brahminism is, i think, a separate subject, and probably deserves a thread on its own.

i read your post a few times, each time more loudly and with more feelings, trying to put myself in your postion before you mailed this.

my wife came running, wondering what the issue was? and commented that i sounded not unlike that of a mating call of a bull frog with laryngitis - she being an ardent p.g. wodehouse fan.

i stopped my elocution, and googled under tamil brahmin holocaust, to familiarize myself with the atrocities supposed to have been committed against us. i did not find anything credible enough.

perhaps, i figured, let me take a snapshot impresseion of our community circa 1960 and current and maybe i could figure the level of damage and destruction done to us, through deprival of our 'fair share'.

wealth: more wealthy as a community now with bulk of us middle class, a sizeable wealthy ones too; 1960: mostly lower middle class (what i know of my extended family)

education: definitely universal education now, with 100% literacy for both boys and girls, and post graduation too at that. 1960: handful of graduates, and no female beyond high school.

status of women: equal. absolutely equal now. 1960 i had female relatives still head shaved on widowhood

mobility: our presence all over the world, and not many feeling the loss or wishing to go back to the rural agraharam roots. 1960: in the midst of mass migration to urban areas, particularly north, in the light of poverty at home

jobs: no longer news to hear of c.e.o TBs of large firms in india and abroad; also senior jobs in government; minimal presence in the lower category 1960: almost fully employed by government at all levels

religion: more relaxed attitude towards rituals, which may cause angst to many of our community. 1960: more adherence probably, but this was the time the roots of today's practice was laid in the young ones

politics: none now,. no credible leaders with sizeable following; 1960 had widespread representation at all levels;

films: sufficient representation at all levels. we now no longer dominate music direction compared to 1960 - could be varying taste of people that we did not adapt. ilayaraja and rehman brought in refreshingly revolutionary trends in tamil popular cinema music.

classical music: we still dominate carnatic music and bharatanatyam now as we did in 1960s

population: total number about the same, mainly because, i think, starting 1950s, we practised family planning. our numbers likely to go down, not due to any holocaust, as much as lack of brides for our young men; and also the tendency not to breed, being very strong among the young generation.

we could also compare then and now scenarios, but i am running out of topics right now...

so, i am wondering as to where you feel there is a threat to self preservation and survival.


also, what has that to do with the 'e-chat room or social coffee club' nature of the forum.

i think, the forum goals are clearly published. i find all topics under the sun discussed here.

except.

except, at times, posts tend to abuse the person and not deal with ideas. the forum, i think, would have no problem, if discussions are conducted politely and with decorum.

i think, there is no need for sparks to fly to emphasize a viewpoint.

i think, truth, even whispered, will sound louder than any goebellsian exercise of repeated falsehood shouted from rooftops.

finally, we should start another thread, to discuss the 2 millenium relationship between jews and gentiles. i think, there is no comparison between that relationship, and the relationship of the tamil andhanan with the rest of tamil tribes.

finally, you might want to identify the shortcomings. along with it, suggest solutions, so that we can see where you are coming from, re the basis of your allegations.

thank you.