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Who is Brahmanan

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pbkhema

Active member
I have been reading the Maitrayeni Samhita for the last few days and a passage from the same which I am giving below puts the picture very clearly
'Why do you enquire about the father or the motherof a Brahmin?
When you find knowledge in someonethat is his father and grandfather"
So what is expected to be a Brahmin is not birth but knowledge (of the Vedas)
 

pvraman

Active member
Sri Raghy,

Another interpretation for Andhanar.

அந்தணர் என்ற சொல் அக்காலத்தில் (குறள் எழுந்தக் காலக்கட்டத்தில்) நிச்சயம் வைதீக பிராமணர்களைக் குறித்திருக்காது என்பது நிதர்சனம். அக்கால வைதிகர்கள் வேத யாகங்களில் மிருகங்களை பலியிட்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.(பார்க்க: நீலகேசி) இதனால் அந்தணன் என்ற சொல் அவர்களைக் குறிக்கவில்லை என்பது பெறப்படுகிறது


http://banukumar_r.blogspot.com/2008/02/blog-post_16.html
Regards
 

RVR

Well-known member
Sri Raghy,

Another interpretation for Andhanar.

அந்தணர் என்ற சொல் அக்காலத்தில் (குறள் எழுந்தக் காலக்கட்டத்தில்) நிச்சயம் வைதீக பிராமணர்களைக் குறித்திருக்காது என்பது நிதர்சனம். அக்கால வைதிகர்கள் வேத யாகங்களில் மிருகங்களை பலியிட்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.(பார்க்க: நீலகேசி) இதனால் அந்தணன் என்ற சொல் அவர்களைக் குறிக்கவில்லை என்பது பெறப்படுகிறது


??ி?்?் ????் !: ???ா?ி ??்???்
Regards

Sri P V Raman,

Jainism accepts only three varnas Kshatria, Vysya and Sudra and doesn't accept brahmin varna at all. Hence interpretation from Jain websites or literature may not be considered as correct.

Bhagavath Geetha recognises four varnas including Brahmin Varna. Since we all believe the words of Lord Krishna, we have to get interpretations from Hindu literature only.

All the best
 

pbkhema

Active member
I am relying on my memory of what all I have read in the past souple of years
During the period when the Vedas (mainly Rg) came inro being the vedic people were in a nomadic stage and the varnasramam had not come into existence.(1500-2000 BCE) In the later period >1500 BCE the varnasramam came into existence and during that time animal sacrifice was there.The Brahmins as priests claimed a primary right to perform sacrifices and the first share of the sacrificail offrings went to the Btahmins.
>1000 BCE the Brahmins losy out to the Kshatriyas and in turn substituted rice and barely made in the dorm of animals to the sacrifice
:alien:
 

pbkhema

Active member
On this subject I am extracting a passage from Chandogya Upanishad
Please pardon my typing
"Once upon a time Satyakama Jabala asked his mother Jabala ' I want to live the life a vedic student.What is the line of my anscestors gitra"She replied 'I do not know the line of your male anscestorsWhen I was young I went around a lot as I was working and I got you.My name is Jabala and your name is Satyakama.So why don't you say you are Styakama Jabala"
Satyakama went to Gautama and asked to study with him.He was asked about his line of male ansecstors and he repeated what his mother had told him
Gautama replied that'No one whi was not a brahmin would be able to say that.You have not deviated fromthe truth and I will intiate you"
That was the olden times
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
dear happy Hindu,
I do have some very brief text on Vedic scientific practices.
The books is not with me at present and i will provide info once available.
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri Pvraman quoted:-

"அறவாழி அந்தணன் தாள்சேர்ந்தார்க் கல்லால்
பிறவாழி நீத்தல் அரிது"

இத் திருக்குறளில் கூறப்பட்ட அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்பவர் யாவர்?. அவர்
எந்தக் கடவுள் என்பதை ஆராய்வோம்.
உரையாசிரியர் பரிமேலழகர், அறவாழி என்பதற்கு அறக்கடவுள் என்று பொருள்
கூறினார். பிறகு மற்றொரு பொருளையும் குறிக்கிறார். அது: அறவாழி
என்பதனைத் தரும "சக்கரமாக்கி அதனுடைய அந்தணன் என்று உரைப்பாருமுளர்"
என்பது. அறக் கடலாகிய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வதை விட, தருமச்
சக்கரத்தை உடைய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வது சிறப்புடையதாகத்
தோன்றுகிறது. நூல்களிலே ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள்(பெளத்தருடைய புத்தப்
பெருமானும் கூட) அறவாழியை உடையவர் என்று கூறப்படுகிறார். ஆகவே,
அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்று குறிக்கப்பட்டவர் ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள் எனக்
கொள்ளத்தகும்.

Idhu eppadi irukku?

Sri Pvraman,

Thanks for posting this interesting information. When I checked the link, I am compelled to believe that the author is trying to put a name to ‘araaazhi andhanan’. But, Valluvar did not mention God by any name. May be, he did not like to compartmentalise ‘kadavul vazhthu’ ( praise of God). I favoured araazhi as ocean + aram (to denote the vast quantity, perhaps) because it rhymes with ‘piraazhi’ in sound and meaning too (Piravi + ocean). (But, then again, we refer cycle of birth in a circular fashion too!). ‘Somehow it does not seem too impressive in the part of the author to adopt elimination tactics to arrive his goal.

Can we take as the அந்தணன் is not a Brahmana?

The clearest meaning for the term ‘andhanan’ was explained by Sri Nara in post #7. This is the best I have come across so far. Here it is,

“The term அந்தணர் is really a beautiful word. I don't believe there is an equivalent word in either English or Samskritham.

The meaning of the word
அந்தணர் is embedded into this Kural itself. அந்தணர் = அம் + தண்மை + யார். அம் refers to good, nice, pure, தண்மை = like water, cool and soothing. So, அந்தணர் simply means one whose natural outlook or temperament towards all life forms is like pure, cool, soothing water.

Now, consider the placement of this Kural. It is the last Kural under the chapter
நீத்தார் பெருமை, i.e. one who has renounced all things worldly and material. Therefore, as you rightly say, it is extremely unlikely that Thiruvalluvar had Brahmins in mind for அந்தணர் in this Kural.”

As Sri Nara explained, the term ‘andhanan’ carry a bit more emphasis on mercy and readily helping mentality. For example, consider, I come across a vulnerable person being bullied by thugs; when I feel sympathy and empathy for the vulnerable person and decide to help the person, I display brahmana quality; in that process, if I beat the living daylight out of the thugs or the vice versa, then I displayed kshtriya varna. This is a simple example that may not pose any confusion. However, when a decision has to be taken to risk the lives of few to save a larger number of lives, then the ‘andhana’ quality would be tested. ‘evvuyirkkum senthanmai poondu ozhugalan’ condition may not be fulfilled. On the other hand, even after taking such a decision, ‘brahma’ quality may not be affected.

So, in my humble opinion, ‘andhanan’ may not be taken as ‘brahmana’.
 
Dear PVR,

Sangams are formed only with selfish motives and selfish gains. In the long run they will not benefit any individual or group. We have witnessed sangams forming and disintegrating.

All I mean to say is there is no point trying to segregate ourselves into a group. It only promotes division and sects. Our minds have been conditioned and programmed to think that we belong to some group, caste, religion, nationality, ethnicity, race etc. They are illusory and false identities. As long as we are conscious of our false identities, we cannot progress as a human race. It is in our hands to bring to reality in the near future that every one thinks he is an Indian first and an Indian last. Going beyond the confines of national boundaries which is man made and artificial, everyone is a human being born in this earth. When all the countries unite as one nation, there won't be war, there will be no need for an army, for passports and visas.
 

Nara

Well-known member
Satyakama went to Gautama and asked to study with him.He was asked about his line of male ansecstors and he repeated what his mother had told him

Gautama replied that'No one whi was not a brahmin would be able to say that.You have not deviated fromthe truth and I will intiate you"

That was the olden times


While the boy was truthful, an admirable quality, what did Gauthama infer from that? He concluded that the boy must be brahmana by birth, for only a brahmana by birth will speak the truth. Why else would he have enquired about the boy's male ancestors in the first place?

The moral of the story seems to be that the reason the boy spoke the ugly truth is because he was a brahmana by birth. If he was of low birth he would have concealed the truth.

This story, IMHO, in the scale of offensiveness, is up there with the worst of them.

Cheers!
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Sri Nara,

Kindly allow me to make my stand very clear when I say I wanted to debate with you. My stand is, I am not trying to debate as a smart alec; I sincerely want to learn from you. I am presenting my point of views as I see them. Most of my point of views may be flawed. I humbly request you to point out the flaws so that; I may achieve abetter understanding, please. I am not wishing to score any points or trying to prove any points. I am thinking of a suitable reply for you. I will get back with a reply tomorrow. Thank you.
Regars, Raghy.
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
While the boy was truthful, an admirable quality, what did Gauthama infer from that? He concluded that the boy must be brahmana by birth, for only a brahmana by birth will speak the truth. Why else would he have enquired about the boy's male ancestors in the first place?

The moral of the story seems to be that the reason the boy spoke the ugly truth is because he was a brahmana by birth. If he was of low birth he would have concealed the truth.

This story, IMHO, in the scale of offensiveness, is up there with the worst of them.

Cheers!

Gautama had an obligation to teach; to teach anyone and everyone. When chose to selectively fulfill his obligations, he miserably failed from his obligations. A teacher should have known better.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Renuka,

Human cloning is not a simple procedure. We are talking of times when people were almost like tribes or tribe-like clans or groups, very very far from the present day caste-hood.

There are no sanskrit equivalents for plasmids, restriction enzymes, dna, incubators, etc..If there are such terms in Sanskrit, please do let me know of them. Or if they were alluding to a different sort of procedure, i wud glad for the references of the texts.

Dunno if we can connect present day discoveries with stories from the past and claim that they existed then.

If there are no sanskrit texts that explain the procedure or atleast touch upon the the subject using any (other) term(s), it is not possible to believe it existed at that time.

Dunno if even the concept of cleanliness or aseptic conditions existed then as it does now.

Am sorry but going by scientific basis alone, the concept of immaculate conception has no validity.

Regards.


Dear happy Hindu,

I will list down a few interesting medical facts in the ancient days:

Embryology
An embryo has 4 components derived from
· Father
· Mother
· Food
· Developed by itself
(Charaka Samhita--- Sharirasthanam 2.26)

Ischemic Heart Disease(IHD)
Pathologhy of IHD involves a transient spasm or thickening & narrowing of arteries with the physical deposition of Kapha-Pitta factors leading to acute pain in the chest producing breathing difficulty.
To preserve Ojas(energy) and maintain the heart and vessels in good condition,one should avoid worrying, take diet condusive to heart and channels of circulation and maintain mental poise
(Susrutasamhita-sutrastanam30.13-500BC)

Plastic Surgery of Nose
· Take nose-sized leaf of a tree supported (on the forehead)
· Cut the skin from cheeks to the size of the leaf
· Trace on the leaf the profile of the nose
· Immediately join that skin carefully with the appropriate bandage
(Sushruta-Samhita-Sutrasthanam16.27,28)

Kidney Stone Removal
Then employ the needle on the left side leaving out only a grain of space.

<FONT face="Times New Roman">
 
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Andhanars may have been the priestly class among the Tamil Speaking Tamilians. Discernibly, there may have existed God Beliefs and Faith systems, indegenous to Tamilians, uncorrupted by the Sanskrit speaking Aryans. There may have been Tamil Scriptures and Tamil Religous works during ancient times. The existing divisions viz Andhanar, Chettiar, Nadar, Mudaliar, Koundar, Vanniar etc would have evolved during ancient times, totally independant from the Varna system in the Bagwad Gita, among the Tamil Speaking population. The basis on which the Tamil Social groups were divided differs entirely from the criterios expressed in Bagwad Gita. In the BG only 4 varna systems exist. Perhaps in the days of Veda Vyasa, in the society to which he belonged, in the environs in which he lived, there existed only 4 varnas. This need not be extended to Tamilians.

The Tamil Texts and beliefs may have been destroyed due to the Aryan invasion.

Veda Vyasa no doubt is a very intelligent and holy man. A saint, a sage by all standards. The Bagwad Gita may have been his brain child. In order to win approval, to present it in an interesting and acceptable form, he may have concocted Mahabharatam. Till this day a section of the Hindu population, especially the Hindus from North East India, the Bengali Hindus to be precise, believe that Mahabharata is a work of fiction and not a fact. Even Vivekananda endorses this view.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Brahma Rishi,
i find it hard to believe that The Mahabharat is just fiction?
Does that make the Bhagavad Geeta fiction too?
Aryan just means noble one.
Its just a word not a race.
I would never want to even imagine that Sage Veda Vyasa who restructured the Vedas for easy understanding for mankind would want to just "make up a story" to win approval.
My question is win approval from whom?
I dont think he needed to impress anyone.

these are purely my own views.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Dear happy Hindu,

I will list down a few interesting medical facts in the ancient days:

Embryology
An embryo has 4 components derived from
· Father
· Mother
· Food
· Developed by itself
(Charaka Samhita--- Sharirasthanam 2.26)

Ischemic Heart Disease(IHD)
Pathologhy of IHD involves a transient spasm or thickening & narrowing of arteries with the physical deposition of Kapha-Pitta factors leading to acute pain in the chest producing breathing difficulty.
To preserve Ojas(energy) and maintain the heart and vessels in good condition,one should avoid worrying, take diet condusive to heart and channels of circulation and maintain mental poise
(Susrutasamhita-sutrastanam30.13-500BC)

Plastic Surgery of Nose
· Take nose-sized leaf of a tree supported (on the forehead)
· Cut the skin from cheeks to the size of the leaf
· Trace on the leaf the profile of the nose
· Immediately join that skin carefully with the appropriate bandage
(Sushruta-Samhita-Sutrasthanam16.27,28)

Kidney Stone Removal
Then employ the needle on the left side leaving out only a grain of space.

Thankyou Renuka. Yes am aware of Sushrutha Samhita as well as other stuff in Vedic literature related to present day science. However, whatever i have come across in what can be called as 'genetics' is very primitive.

If you know of specifically of human cloning in any hindu literature please let me know of it.

Regards.

PS: just bcoz something is ancient, it does not always have to be right. My guess is that parts of hindu literature allude to what can be called as the homunculus theory - that is why they thot the woman contributed nothing to an embryo. Ofcourse, they were wrong.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
As a doctor myself i dont find anything so far in our ancient text or any ancient western medical practice as "primitive".
I would prefer to call the practices "Pioneers"
Improvement on ancient practices paved the "advancement" we have today.
We ourselves are improving today for the benefit of mankind tommorow.
Right today might be wrong tommorrow.
Unknown side effects of a medication today might be known tommorow.
We might feel we are "advanced" now but in 100-200 years time people of the future would find us "primitive."
Primitive is only relatively speaking.

I admire the "original thought" of the ancient ones without which advancement in any field today would not be possible.
Most of us are only regurgitating what has been written by others.
 
OP
OP
R

Raghy

Well-known member
Dear members,

I humbly request the honourable members to kindly limit the discussion about 'who is brahmanan', in this thread please. Thank you.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
I am not a brahmana by birth but i am always amazed why everyone is always trying to define "Who is a Brahmana"?
Why isnt anyone trying to define Who is a Kshatriya, Who is a Vaisya etc?



 

happyhindu

Well-known member
As a doctor myself i dont find anything so far in our ancient text or any ancient western medical practice as "primitive".
I would prefer to call the practices "Pioneers"
Improvement on ancient practices paved the "advancement" we have today.
We ourselves are improving today for the benefit of mankind tommorow.
Right today might be wrong tommorrow.
Unknown side effects of a medication today might be known tommorow.
We might feel we are "advanced" now but in 100-200 years time people of the future would find us "primitive."
Primitive is only relatively speaking.

I admire the "original thought" of the ancient ones without which advancement in any field today would not be possible.
Most of us are only regurgitating what has been written by others.

Dear Renuka,

When i used the word 'primitive' - and more so in the context of whether or not human cloning was present in the ancient times - i was referring to आन्दुवंशिकी or genetics, not to other parts of science stuff in vedic literature.

Am sorry but i wud call pioneering efforts as those that turned out as atleast somewhat accurate in the probabilistic set of trial and error methods of exploration, experimentation, meaning, provable as atleast 'probably right' in a wet lab today..

...does not mean that i wud look down upon what turned out to be "errors" in that trial-error probablisitic set...there is no life, no learning, without errors...

So, people of the Vedic times (to me) were pioneers in surgical practices, herbal medicine, astronomy, dyes, textiles, etc....unless i know of something substantial in genetics, i prefer to reserve my comments on it.

But as of now, based on what i have come across so far, yes, i do think the science of genetics in vedic literature is primitive. Its just a personal point of view...

Regards.

Dear members,

I humbly request the honourable members to kindly limit the discussion about 'who is brahmanan', in this thread please. Thank you.

Am sorry Raghy. Will follow suit. Have clarified above and will not post anymore stuff non-relevant to this thread topic.

Regards.
 
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