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SEEKING ANSWERS :: Is a person brahmin by birth or actions and other questions ?

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That post was a slap on the face of people on this site. There are elders and scholars on this site too (may be not according to you), but they are.

It was not meant to be a slap on the face of any one. It is just a statement of fact. According to you there can be many things in this site. I can write about only my perception of this site and not yours. And by the way we have read enough of advices from such great scholars and vedic pundits here to go for IC/IR marriages.

Read Vedas!!!!!!! are you serious? How much time do you think Ramkiji has? There is only one life time for this birth, and that is not enough.

I said only read vedas and not master vedas. In one lifetime enough material can be learnt from vedas. Good translations are available.

Do you think you will find one clear definition in the version of Veda you read.

I believe the member can find answers to his immediate problems if he reads vedas.

You are not being honest in your advice.

It is your understanding of me. I do not want to reply to this.

If you have no knowledge there is nothing wrong in accepting that and being honest about it. There is need to send that person in wild goose chase.

Whether I have knowledge or not is besides the point. The member was given a sincere advice to go to the right sources for an answer to his questions. Here already people(elders/vedic scholars/pundits etc according to you) have started taking positions, opening their shops to sell the usual junk to him. Now poor fellow, he has been advised to refer to Indian Constitution, of all the places, to find out an answer to his problem. Great going indeed. I do not intend to participate in this cacophony. The whole lot of blah blah is going to be repeated with zest and zeal. LOL. Thanks.
 
If an agency gave away Rs 1,00,000 to every Brahmin, everybody will try to prove themselves a Brahmin.

This really hits the nail on the head. You are absolutely right. If the offer was to give away Rs. 100000.00 to anyone (not Brahmin necessarily) everyone would try to prove himself to a Brahmin.

Notwithstanding the loud protestations in this forum about alleged injustices to the fourth varNa in the dinosaur era and the presumed social scientists trying to rectify the anomaly by trying to *fit* the guilt feeling to the present day BrahmaNas by *selective copious reproduction of relic scriptures* with so many contradictions the average person on the street will try to align himself with what best suits him and *economic situation* plays a key role.

The offer of Rs. 100000.00 will bring in many many "proofs" which neither you nor me nor the scripture quoters would have thought was in existence.
 
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It was not meant to be a slap on the face of any one. It is just a statement of fact. According to you there can be many things in this site. I can write about only my perception of this site and not yours. And by the way we have read enough of advices from such great scholars and vedic pundits here to go for IC/IR marriages.



I said only read vedas and not master vedas. In one lifetime enough material can be learnt from vedas. Good translations are available.



I believe the member can find answers to his immediate problems if he reads vedas.



It is your understanding of me. I do not want to reply to this.



Whether I have knowledge or not is besides the point. The member was given a sincere advice to go to the right sources for an answer to his questions. Here already people(elders/vedic scholars/pundits etc according to you) have started taking positions, opening their shops to sell the usual junk to him. Now poor fellow, he has been advised to refer to Indian Constitution, of all the places, to find out an answer to his problem. Great going indeed. I do not intend to participate in this cacophony. The whole lot of blah blah is going to be repeated with zest and zeal. LOL. Thanks.


It pains me a lot to see that nobody in this forum can answer my straight forward question; Iam very sad and disappointed; The spirit of my questions are coming from knowing the truth and truth only;
Who defined who is a brahmin ?
Who defined who is eligible for upanayanam ?
Is it scriptural directive or the directive of a so called God realised man/woman ?
I had a 2 hour session with a learned brahmin for 2 hours but I could not get straight answers for the questions that make sense; I do not know how many more doors I need to knock;
I pray god to help me here;
 
Dear Ramki ji,

There are 2 definitions for the word Brahmana.

1)According to reservation system of India..a Brahmana is a person who is born into the Brahmana Caste(DNA)

2)The other classification is a person who has realized Brahman through his MBA(Mind Body Atma).

Now the journey from birth (DNA) to MBA has lots of theories..some proven..some unproven..I do not think Vedas might have all the answers cos Robert Boyd was born post Vedic period.

So members have given their opinions..it is up to you to only imbibe the essence just like how the swan separates milk from water.
 
This really hits the nail on the head. You are absolutely right. If the offer was to give away Rs. 100000.00 to anyone (not Brahmin necessarily) everyone would try to prove himself to a Brahmin.

Shri Zebra,

It is rather confusing (enigmatic), or simple twaddle, what you have written above. "If the offer was to give away Rs. 100000.00 to anyone (not Brahmin necessarily) everyone would try to prove himself to a Brahmin.", as you propose, why should anyone take the extra effort/s to prove oneself to be a Brahmin, to get that money, unless they belong to your type and want to trumpet their brahmana status even where it is not at all necessary or relevant? Do you consider others to be as foolish as yourself?

Notwithstanding the loud protestations in this forum about alleged injustices to the fourth varNa in the dinosaur era and the presumed social scientists trying to rectify the anomaly by trying to *fit* the guilt feeling to the present day BrahmaNas by *selective copious reproduction of relic scriptures* with so many contradictions the average person on the street will try to align himself with what best suits him and *economic situation* plays a key role.

You have been forced to write many inexactitudes & equivocations, here, possibly because your "agenda" drives you to do it. The injustices are very, very real - not alleged or unproved; only, you will have to have an impartial outlook, possess moral courage and read the old historical accounts, newspaper reports, and books which deal with the social history of India. The "anomaly" that you refer to, have been underscored by our Constituent Assembly itself in which there were many eminent brahmins also—may be all those brahmins were not as intelligent and rightly informed as you seem to be, about Indian History; this Constituent Assembly also decided, unequivocally, to redress the "anomaly" by the scheme of reservations to those who were wronged, not in dinosaur time but till Independence, if not thereafter also.

Whether you as a brahmana feel the *guilt* for whatever happened even till your previous generation's time and may be yours too, depends on how far you are a sincere person who has the moral fibre to encounter **truth / reality ** face to face. If you lack the moral courage and are also had been an endorser, supporter or perpetrator of such injustices yourself, or have the secret wish that such injustice is desirable, then it is possible that your guilty conscience tries to play tricks (குற்றமுள்ள நெஞ்சு குறுகுறுக்குமாம்) and will make you "wish away" everything as baseless and untrue. Much of what you have written above falls under this category.

The man in the street in TN conditions will most probably be a NB or a low caste person, statistically, and he knows well about what happened in the past. His economic situation today, fortunately, does not depend upon whether he accepts the brainwashing attempts of neo-brahmins of your kind.

The offer of Rs. 100000.00 will bring in many many "proofs" which neither you nor me nor the scripture quoters would have thought was in existence.

You are confused by the very prospect of the offer or you are blabbering in some kind of dementia. When you are so categorical about "many many "proofs" which neither you nor me nor the scripture quoters would have thought was in existence.", and also vouchsafe that the scripture quoters did not know of such proofs, the conclusion becomes inescapable that such proofs are known to you. Hence all I can say now is "Best of luck and enjoy your "lakh"!!
 
Shri Zebra,

It is rather confusing (enigmatic), or simple twaddle, what you have written above. "If the offer was to give away Rs. 100000.00 to anyone (not Brahmin necessarily) everyone would try to prove himself to a Brahmin.", as you propose, why should anyone take the extra effort/s to prove oneself to be a Brahmin, to get that money, unless they belong to your type and want to trumpet their brahmana status even where it is not at all necessary or relevant? Do you consider others to be as foolish as yourself?

Such cheap talks get you nowhere. I am certain that at least they are not as foolish as you to keep equivocating between born brahmin, till yesterday brahmin - today non brahmin, non vocation non brahmin, brahmin by law non brahmin by practice etc. and try to grind the flour again and again.

You have been forced to write many inexactitudes & equivocations, here, possibly because your "agenda" drives you to do it.

My only agenda is to point out the himalayan exaggerations that some members keep shouting even though they are horse. And you have to point out the inexactitudes in my posts and not simply say a lot of inexactitudes.

The injustices are very, very real - not alleged or unproved; only, you will have to have an impartial outlook, possess moral courage and read the old historical accounts, newspaper reports, and books which deal with the social history of India.

The need is for you to have an impartial outlook and have the wisdom to separate the wheat from chaff instead of regurgitating the same thing all over.

The "anomaly" that you refer to, have been underscored by our Constituent Assembly itself in which there were many eminent brahmins also—may be all those brahmins were not as intelligent and rightly informed as you seem to be, about Indian History; this Constituent Assembly also decided, unequivocally, to redress the "anomaly" by the scheme of reservations to those who were wronged, not in dinosaur time but till Independence, if not thereafter also.

They were surely more intelligent than you at least. They did what they could in real and tangible terms instead of frequenting TB forum and crying hoarse all through the day that brahmins did this, brahmins did that in the stone age and today's brahmins are responsible for the ills of the whole world.

They did not let free float a karma theory like you did and just muse that probably the sufferings are a result of karma

Whether you as a brahmana feel the *guilt* for whatever happened even till your previous generation's time and may be yours too, depends on how far you are a sincere person who has the moral fibre to encounter **truth / reality ** face to face. If you lack the moral courage and are also had been an endorser, supporter or perpetrator of such injustices yourself, or have the secret wish that such injustice is desirable, then it is possible that your guilty conscience tries to play tricks (குற்றமுள்ள நெஞ்சு குறுகுறுக்குமாம்) and will make you "wish away" everything as baseless and untrue. Much of what you have written above falls under this category.

No I do not have any guilt feelings of what happened in the past and you cannot *force fit* the guilt conscience in me, nor to the best of my knowledge any of my ancestors commissioned such injustices as you keep tom-tomming. I am not in need of your sincerity certificate or moral fibre tensile strength certificate either.

It is my belief that you are now shedding crocodile tears to wash away your guilt feelings.

The man in the street in TN conditions will most probably be a NB or a low caste person, statistically, and he knows well about what happened in the past. His economic situation today, fortunately, does not depend upon whether he accepts the brainwashing attempts of neo-brahmins of your kind.

Very true. He does not need the useless variety of your pep talks either, that too in the TB forum which does not too many readers of NBs.


You are confused by the very prospect of the offer or you are blabbering in some kind of dementia. When you are so categorical about "many many "proofs" which neither you nor me nor the scripture quoters would have thought was in existence.", and also vouchsafe that the scripture quoters did not know of such proofs, the conclusion becomes inescapable that such proofs are known to you. Hence all I can say now is "Best of luck and enjoy your "lakh"!!

You are blabbering because you are not understanding what I meant to say. Just as some scripture quoters with selective amnesia quote something one day and resort to other quotations on other days, they too would provide the *proofs* of the variety we see in this forum and claim the offer of Rs. 100000.00.
 
Pranams to all

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin as my mother and father claim; Iam trying to seek answers for some prominent questions that are nagging me;

a) Is a person Brahmin by birth or by the way of actions ? What are the specific slokas and references for that in vedas, Sruthi and Smrithis ?

b) What are the verses/slokas in vedas and smritis that tell what a brahmin should do ? ( Sandhi, Agnihotram, Vaishvadevam)

c) Is there any negative effects ( Papas) for not doing nithya karmas ? If yes, what are the verses/slokas in vedas/smritis that explains the same ?

Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Regards
Ramki

Dear Ramki,

I feel we members here have been very unfair to you. Reading all that has been posted here including Constitution of India and Robert Boyd in this thread you may think that this is a madhouse and may run away from here. So I am trying to answer your questions just very briefly so that you can go to the sources for details.

a) A person like you is a brahmin by birth. Your actions will have to be that of a brahmin-meaning sAtvik. Reference i give below:

Please take the purusha sukta which finds a place in two different vedas. Read it and understand it by looking at the translation. Then go to a learned scholar and attend his kalakshepam to know the meaning.

b)It is in smritis and grihya sutras. Please read them and understand them.

c)Refer to the same texts and also smrutis. Nitya karmas are duties for a brahmin and if you fail to do them, you will accumulate Papa. This is because you displease God by your failure to do nithyakarmas. The prayaschittam (atonement) for this papa is surrendering to God(according to SV sampradhaya) and seeking his forgiveness. AkrityAnAncha karaNam and krityAnAm varjanam(செய்யத்தகாதவற்றைச்செய்தல், செய்யவேண்டியவற்றைச் செய்யாதொழிதல்) both are to be avoided. I do not know what is the position in smartha sampradayam. Please check up with knowledgeable people.

Hope this helps. Thank you.
 
Dear Ramki ji,

There are 2 definitions for the word Brahmana.

1)According to reservation system of India..a Brahmana is a person who is born into the Brahmana Caste(DNA)

2)The other classification is a person who has realized Brahman through his MBA(Mind Body Atma).

Now the journey from birth (DNA) to MBA has lots of theories..some proven..some unproven..I do not think Vedas might have all the answers cos Robert Boyd was born post Vedic period.

So members have given their opinions..it is up to you to only imbibe the essence just like how the swan separates milk from water.

Smt. Renuka,

Does the reservation system say that "a Brahmana is a person who is born into the Brahmana Caste(DNA)" ? I have my doubts. The Constitution of India, Article 16 (4)-A & B are worded like this:

Clause (4-A): Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from making
provision for reservation in matters of promotion to any class or classes of posts
in the services under the State in favour of the Scheduled Castes and the
Scheduled Tribes, which in the opinion of the State are not adequately represented
in the service of the State.

"Clause (4-B): Nothing in this article shall prevent the State from considering any
unfilled vacancies of a year which are reserved for being filled up in that year in
accordance with any provision for reservation made under clause (4) or Clause (4-
A) as a separate class of vacancies to be filled up in any succeeding year or years
and such class of vacancies shall not be considered together with the vacancies of
the year in which they are being filled up for determining the ceiling of fifty
percent reservation on total number of vacancies of that year (Constitution 81st
Amendment Act, 2000)."

These and the various subsequent provisions do not mention the word "brahmins" at all.
 
.....
1)According to reservation system of India..a Brahmana is a person who is born into the Brahmana Caste(DNA)

2)The other classification is a person who has realized Brahman through his MBA(Mind Body Atma).
...
The flip side of this is, according to reservation system of India..a BC/SC/ST is a person who is born into one of the NB Castes (DNA), the other classification per Brahminism is paapa yoni, born to serve those of superior birth, permanently polluted from birth, etc., etc. The (2) classification given above is intrinsically supremacist.
 
It pains me a lot to see that nobody in this forum can answer my straight forward question; Iam very sad and disappointed; The spirit of my questions are coming from knowing the truth and truth only;
Who defined who is a brahmin ?
Who defined who is eligible for upanayanam ?
Is it scriptural directive or the directive of a so called God realised man/woman ?
I had a 2 hour session with a learned brahmin for 2 hours but I could not get straight answers for the questions that make sense; I do not know how many more doors I need to knock;
I pray god to help me here;
Ramki, Who is a Brahmin and who is eligible for upanayanam are very clearly laid out in Dharmashasthra texts. These texts are revered by Brahmins as the distilled essence of Vedic living. Kanchi Paramacharya attests to this as follows:

Manu, Parasara, Yajnavalkya, Gautama, Harita, Yama, Visnu, Sankha, Likhita, Brhaspati, Daksa, Angiras, Pracetas, Samvarta, Acanas, Atri, Apastamba and Satatapa are the eighteen sages who mastered the Vedas with their superhuman power and derived the Smrtis from them. Their works are known after them like Manusmrti, Yajnavalkya-smrti, Parasara-Smrti and so on, and they contain all that we need to know about all the dharmas to be adhered to and all the rituals to be performed during our entire life.

Smritis and Allied Works from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

Paramacharya, in response to some people asking for Dharmashasthras to be modified to suit the changing times, clarifies the immutability of the rules laid out in them thus:

If the Smrtis really represent the views of the authors there is nothing wrong in what these people think about them and about what they want me to do about them. But those who want the dharmasastras changed do not seem to know that they (the Smrtis) do not reflect the view of the sages who composed them. What the authors of the Smrtis have done is to present us in an orderly fashion what is already contained in the Vedas. The Vedic word cannot and must not be changed at any time and on any account. The same applies to the rules and laws laid down in the Smrtis.

Smritis - not Independent Works from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:


Therefore, you have to look no further than the Dharmashasthras to find answers to your questions, and they categorically state that to be a Brahmin is one must be born to Brahmin parents. Only the three upper varnas, Bramana, Kshatriya and Vaishya are eligible for upanayanam. You can take a look at one well known Dharmashasthra text at this link: The Laws of Manu.

As others have suggested in this thread, if you can, please talk to a range of learned people, and if you are really seeking the truth, then don't restrict your field only to Brahmanas, talk to those who reject Brahminism as well -- you don't have to take their words, but at least get to know why they hold such views. If you are seeking truth you need to be unafraid to look for it anywhere and everywhere.


good luck, regards ....
 
One that believes brahmins are unique and another which thinks brahmins should give up everything unique in their culture and become extinct.

Every human being is unique, isnt it?

Detailed question: Are Brahmins the people becoming extinct or Brahminism the culture becoming extinct?

For example: Ancient and medieval Hinduism is extinct, but Hindus themselves are not extinct. Far from it.
 
Sri. Sangom has given the right answer and I respect him for his boldness to write it as many brahmins today will scoff at such an answer. The code of conduct prescribed for the brahmin to follow on a daily basis in the dharma sastras and grihya sutras are very strict. However, Sastras also predict these are going to be very difficult to follow in Kali yuga. Today, even those brahmins adhering to priesthood as vaideekas cannot be classified as brahmins as they do it only for money and in most cases their conduct could even be below the brahmins who have taken a secular profession for livelihood. However, for those of us who have taken to a secular profession for livelihood, this is what I try to follow.
1) Try to do sandhyavandana on a daily basis at least once a day with 108 gayathris at least in weekends or holidays. Try to find some time on a daily basis or weekends to recite Rudram, Vishnu sahasranamam, Lalitha Sahasranamam, or small stotras.
2) Try to learn Sanskrit, and Hindu scriptures including that of the tamil sivanadiars and vaishnavite saints. Try to learn the mantras to perform the basic rites like Jatakarma, Namakarana, Vivaaha, Antheyshti, Shradda etc.
3) If we have more faith in the efficacy of the holy name of the Lord (Vishnu or Siva as per one's devotion), do nama japa and nama sankirtana with other devotees.
4) Never ever talk about brahminical pride or brahminical supremacy and thus become a "source of heartburn" for other Hindu communities. This will only weaken the brahmin community as other communities will then tend to convert to Islam or Christianity and a situation like Kashmir where the brahmin is completely evicted will arise.
5) Associate with other Hindu communities for congregational religious activities through organizations or at one's home, like Nama Samkirtana, samuhika poojas at temples, Volunteering for Annadanam related work, Group recital of Vishnu sahasranamam, etc.
6) Let us not try to look down other Hindu castes if they are non-vegetarians as long as they do not eat beef which most do not do. Eating meat is adharma only for the brahmin and not for Kshtra-Vaishya-Chaturtha dharmas whose vocations involve considerable physical effort. Keep in mind that many Rajputs, Marathas, Telugu Nayaks/Naickers etc who gave their lives to protect the brahmins, Hindu temples etc during brutal islamic invasions could do it because they could stay strong by eating meat also. However, as brahmins, we should follow vegetarianism and should abstain from vices like smoking, drinking alcohol etc.
7) Above all, let us try to use our retired life to strengthen Hindu religion among our Hindu brethren. This could be in various ways, like teaching slokas, bhajans, sanskrit, bhagawat gita, upanishads etc to Hindus of all castes possibly as a member of an organization like R.K.Ashram, Sivananda ashram, Vivekananada kendra, RSS etc. We could also do Pourohitya by doing basic ceremonies like Jatakarama, Namakarana, Vivaha (with all ceremonies like laja homam, sapthapadi etc) etc to all Hindu castes desiring to conduct these ceremonies or at mass wedding ceremonies organized by organizations. This will bring good bondage between brahmins and other Hindu communities and bring a sense of brotherhood. Such endeavors as I said before, shall discourage non-brahmin communities from converting to other religions which as I said can lead to Kashmir like situation. Such endeavors will act as a Prayashchitta for us to abandon our brahminical dharma mentioned in scriptures. This is my humble opinion only.
 
Detailed question: Are Brahmins the people becoming extinct or Brahminism the culture becoming extinct?

For example: Ancient and medieval Hinduism is extinct, but Hindus themselves are not extinct. Far from it.

Dear Biswa,

For your example to be valid, one have to allow the argument that hinduism can be modified, adapted etc by its followers. Only then, you can claim that hinduism, that is, ancient and medieval hinduism as it was followed, is extinct but hindus are NOT, because they now follow a different, let's say, modern hinduism.

The Brahmins can also adapt their culture as they deem fit. Why not?
 
Just as some scripture quoters with selective amnesia quote something one day and resort to other quotations on other days, they too would provide the *proofs* of the variety we see in this forum and claim the offer....

I think Zebra's observation is not incorrect.

Sometime back a certain member made an argument that as long as a caste certificate certifying a member as non-Brahmin cannot be obtained, that member should be deemed a Brahmin and hence that member should have unfettered freedom to criticize (bash) brahmins.

So why jump on Prasad now regarding technicalities?

I wish the anti-brahmin/anti-brahminist people at the least remain consistent in their views.
 
It pains me a lot to see that nobody in this forum can answer my straight forward question; Iam very sad and disappointed; The spirit of my questions are coming from knowing the truth and truth only;
Who defined who is a brahmin ?
Who defined who is eligible for upanayanam ?
Is it scriptural directive or the directive of a so called God realised man/woman ?
I had a 2 hour session with a learned brahmin for 2 hours but I could not get straight answers for the questions that make sense; I do not know how many more doors I need to knock;
I pray god to help me here;

Shri Ramki,

The authority for "definition" of brahmana is not there if you want it in the modern meaning of a definition, like "A brahmana is one who.....". It is from the distilled wisdom of most of the smritis or Dharmasastras, the occasional remarks made in various puranas and the epics, etc., that a holistic definition of "brahmana" can be obtained. Birth to a brahmana parents ipso facto does not qualify a person to claim brahmana status. For example children with defects like dumbness (inability to speak clearly, lisping, mental retardation, the modern autism, hyper-active children till they are completely cured, deaf children, etc., are prohibited from upanayanam ceremony and so such children just cannot become brahmanas even if their parents are brahmanas themselves.

Hence it was not as if some x,y or z rishi defined who is a brahmana and who is not. The same holds good for your second question "Who defined who is eligible for upanayanam ?".

It is all from scriptural directives and, according to orthodox people, all our scriptures are works of rishis or sages; the vedas are considered by all devout hindus to be not man-made but emanating from the one supreme divinity or Parabrahmam/Vishnu/Krishna, etc., according to each schism's belief about who is the highest godhead.

The answers contained in my post #3 above are, in my humble opinion, the most succinct and direct answers you will probably be able to get; supplement those answers with what is written above in this post.

Any learned brahmana, including those who have acquired the titles of Deekshitar, Ghanapaathikal, Jataavallabhar, etc., will necessarily answer your questions with some bias, because they will be bent upon ensuring their own position as good examples of brahmana does not get sullied. They will not be able therefore, to admit that almost all of us people claiming to be brahmanas are, in essence, not brahmanas and may mostly be sudras only. Of course, our Dharmasastras mention another category called Brahma bandhu, i.e., persons who are born in the families of brāhmaṇas but do not follow the rules and regulations carefully. Perhaps many of us come in this category.

If you are unbiased you can take my answers and proceed on that basis; but if you have the innate desire to find a definition such as to make you a brahmin, then I don't know what you will have to do.
 
Sri. Sangom has given the right answer and I respect him for his boldness to write it as many brahmins today will scoff at such an answer. The code of conduct prescribed for the brahmin to follow on a daily basis in the dharma sastras and grihya sutras are very strict. However, Sastras also predict these are going to be very difficult to follow in Kali yuga. Today, even those brahmins adhering to priesthood as vaideekas cannot be classified as brahmins as they do it only for money and in most cases their conduct could even be below the brahmins who have taken a secular profession for livelihood. However, for those of us who have taken to a secular profession for livelihood, this is what I try to follow.
1) Try to do sandhyavandana on a daily basis at least once a day with 108 gayathris at least in weekends or holidays. Try to find some time on a daily basis or weekends to recite Rudram, Vishnu sahasranamam, Lalitha Sahasranamam, or small stotras.
2) Try to learn Sanskrit, and Hindu scriptures including that of the tamil sivanadiars and vaishnavite saints. Try to learn the mantras to perform the basic rites like Jatakarma, Namakarana, Vivaaha, Antheyshti, Shradda etc.
3) If we have more faith in the efficacy of the holy name of the Lord (Vishnu or Siva as per one's devotion), do nama japa and nama sankirtana with other devotees.
4) Never ever talk about brahminical pride or brahminical supremacy and thus become a "source of heartburn" for other Hindu communities. This will only weaken the brahmin community as other communities will then tend to convert to Islam or Christianity and a situation like Kashmir where the brahmin is completely evicted will arise.
5) Associate with other Hindu communities for congregational religious activities through organizations or at one's home, like Nama Samkirtana, samuhika poojas at temples, Volunteering for Annadanam related work, Group recital of Vishnu sahasranamam, etc.
6) Let us not try to look down other Hindu castes if they are non-vegetarians as long as they do not eat beef which most do not do. Eating meat is adharma only for the brahmin and not for Kshtra-Vaishya-Chaturtha dharmas whose vocations involve considerable physical effort. Keep in mind that many Rajputs, Marathas, Telugu Nayaks/Naickers etc who gave their lives to protect the brahmins, Hindu temples etc during brutal islamic invasions could do it because they could stay strong by eating meat also. However, as brahmins, we should follow vegetarianism and should abstain from vices like smoking, drinking alcohol etc.
7) Above all, let us try to use our retired life to strengthen Hindu religion among our Hindu brethren. This could be in various ways, like teaching slokas, bhajans, sanskrit, bhagawat gita, upanishads etc to Hindus of all castes possibly as a member of an organization like R.K.Ashram, Sivananda ashram, Vivekananada kendra, RSS etc. We could also do Pourohitya by doing basic ceremonies like Jatakarama, Namakarana, Vivaha (with all ceremonies like laja homam, sapthapadi etc) etc to all Hindu castes desiring to conduct these ceremonies or at mass wedding ceremonies organized by organizations. This will bring good bondage between brahmins and other Hindu communities and bring a sense of brotherhood. Such endeavors as I said before, shall discourage non-brahmin communities from converting to other religions which as I said can lead to Kashmir like situation. Such endeavors will act as a Prayashchitta for us to abandon our brahminical dharma mentioned in scriptures. This is my humble opinion only.

Shri Ramki,

Whatever you have explained above are all extremely salutary and I won't say anything from that list is to be rejected. But, even though we may not be following the Dharma Sastra stipulations for a true brahmana, if you take the extra effort to read and understand as much of our scriptures (as is within your abilities), you will find that the core purpose of being a brahmana is to realize the "Brahman" or the one Supreme Reality underlying this entire "Jagat" as each one of us experiences it.

Your list (or itinerary) does not provide for this most important activity for a brahmana, which Adishankara calls "Nididhyaasana" or deep self-contemplation about Brahman. The enquiry starts, as advised by Ramana Maharshi, with the basic question "who am "I"?". If you are not a smaartha and advaitin, you may follow whatever your Acharyas, Gurus etc., have laid down in this matter, but I think this meditating on Brahman is there for all brahmanas, irrespective of schisms. Kindly check and confirm from elderly and learned people from your group.

Doing all the rest is OK but one question which I would like to put to you is with regard to the sentence, "Never ever talk about brahminical pride or brahminical supremacy...". This contingency will arise only if someone feels in his heart of hearts that brahmins possess some supremacy or that one can really feel proud of the fact that he is a brahmana and not a non-brahmana. If you will kindly take the pains to read our scriptures, you will find that venerable brahmana is never described as being proud or showing any kind of supremacy; you may find rishis with such pride and supremacist feelings which are put down appropriately by the Lord but no ordinary brahmana is depicted like that. The Purusha sookta says, "ब्राह्मणॊऽस्य मुखं आसीत् (brāhmaṇo:'sya mukhaṃ āsīt)" or "the brahmanas were the mouth of That (Purusha)". The other three castes Kshatriya, Vaisya and Sudra constituted the Purusha's arms, thighs and feet respectively. In such an organic arrangement, can any one limb claim superiority over the others? This is a point worth pondering.

Second advice I will give you is that before teaching slokas, bhajans, sanskrit, bhagawat gita, upanishads etc., it is absolutely necessary for anybody who starts such teaching, to have certain basic minimum learning of the Sanskrit language, that the teacher himself/herself should have thoroughly studied whatever he/she proposes to teach and should be able to answer any kind of questions very calmly and in a logical fashion; merely making somethings "by-heart" nobody should jump into this band wagon of spreading hinduism through teaching slokas, bhajans, sanskrit, bhagawat gita, upanishads etc. This is all the mor eimportant in the case of teaching or reciting items like rudram/chamakam, the various sooktas and sahasranaamams, etc. The slokas contain many many references to the puranas, epics and the vedas/upanishads as well and if one proposes to teach slokas one should be personally thorough with the references therein. In short, let us not harm hinduism by teaching things haphazardly or in a wishy-washy way.
 
கால பைரவன்;204417 said:
I think Zebra's observation is not incorrect.

Sometime back a certain member made an argument that as long as a caste certificate certifying a member as non-Brahmin cannot be obtained, that member should be deemed a Brahmin and hence that member should have unfettered freedom to criticize (bash) brahmins.

So why jump on Prasad now regarding technicalities?

I wish the anti-brahmin/anti-brahminist people at the least remain consistent in their views.

Sri KB,

In this very thread Sri Sangom in post #12 posits Chanakya as being a "recruit to the Ajivaka sect" to put down Sri Prasad's views.

But Sri Sangom was happy to contend that Chanakya was a brahmin in post # 6 of "Why Brahmins are considered docile easy target. The link to that post is here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-brahmins-considered-docile-easy-targets.html. This is what I mean by their selective amnesia.

Why Sri Sangom wanted Chanakya to a Brahmin then and not to be so now is very clear if one just glances both the posts. He wants everyone to believe that it is the "others" have agendas of their own !!!
 
Sri KB,

In this very thread Sri Sangom in post #12 posits Chanakya as being a "recruit to the Ajivaka sect" to put down Sri Prasad's views.

But Sri Sangom was happy to contend that Chanakya was a brahmin in post # 6 of "Why Brahmins are considered docile easy target. The link to that post is here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-brahmins-considered-docile-easy-targets.html. This is what I mean by their selective amnesia.

Why Sri Sangom wanted Chanakya to a Brahmin then and not to be so now is very clear if one just glances both the posts. He wants everyone to believe that it is the "others" have agendas of their own !!!

Shri zebra,

The problem seems to be that you have not made any effort to learn a little more even, about the Ajivika sect or the various other mendicant sects which had their own philosophies and existed as early as the vedic period itself. Your effort is only to shoot some arrows at the people (and not what they write here) probably because this gives you a feeling of satisfaction that if you make even one such "hit" you have done your day's good deed for the sake of "brahminism".

I had written elsewhere in another recent post that these mendicant sects had followers from the established Aryan (vedic) society and that they even possibly recruited such 'dwija' people into their fold. That was how Gowthama became a disciple of Mankhali Gosala, who himself was like a 'watershed' of the Ajivika movement. Chanakya is believed by some historians as a similar Ajivika cadre who left his home town in NW India and came roaming upto Pataliputra; some other historians hold the view that when differences between Dhanananda and Chanakya lead the former to publicly insult Vishnugupta alias Kautilya in his royal assembly, the latter escapes from the kingdom limits of Dhanananda in the guise of an Ajivika mendicant.

Hence, readers will observe that Chanakya was a brahmin and was also an Ajivika, at least temporarily. There is no 'selective amnesia' on my part, but inadequate knowledge coupled with a non-sattvik tendency to find fault and insult (like what probably Dhanananda himself had) on the part of...
 
கால பைரவன்;204382 said:
Dear Biswa,

For your example to be valid, one have to allow the argument that hinduism can be modified, adapted etc by its followers. Only then, you can claim that hinduism, that is, ancient and medieval hinduism as it was followed, is extinct but hindus are NOT, because they now follow a different, let's say, modern hinduism.

The Brahmins can also adapt their culture as they deem fit. Why not?

My point exactly!

However then one must agree that Brahmin culture (like any other culture) is a moving target, varying according to time and place.
 
My point exactly!

However then one must agree that Brahmin culture (like any other culture) is a moving target, varying according to time and place.

Yes..I agree about any culture is a moving target..varying to time,place and let me add person too.

Easier to remember..Oriented to Time,Place and Person is neurological method of assessment of a persons conscious state in the Glasgow Coma Scale.
 

Thanks for posting the link of this nice story P J Sir!

The hero reminds me of Saint Thyagaraja, one of the trinities of Carnatic music.

The hero's wife is practical when she says:

பணம் பெரிசா, ஞானம் பெரிசாங்கிறதெல்லாம் நேக்குத் தெரியாது. ஆனால், பணம் – அது எவ்வளவு அதிகம்னாலும் எப்படி

நிலையில்லையோ அதே மாதிரி மனுஷாளும் எவ்வளவு பெரிய ஞானியாயிருந்தாலும் வாழ்க்கை சாசுவதமில்லையே!

அப்படி நினைக்கிறதோ சொல்றதோ மகா பாவம். ஆனால் இந்தக் காலத்திலே எப்பேர்ப்பட்ட பதிவிரதையும் உடன்கட்டை

ஏறிடுறதில்லையே! இவருக்கு அப்புறம் ஒருவேளை நான் இருக்க வேண்டி வந்ததுன்னா… சிவ! சிவா!…

உஞ்சவிருத்தி பண்றதிலே எனக்கென்ன பெருமை! எல்லோரும் பிச்சைக்காரின்னு சொல்லுவா. கட்டினவளைப் பிச்சைக்காரியா

விட்டுட்டான்னு இந்த மகா ஞானியைப் பத்தியும் பேசுவா.
அவர் கிழிச்சு எறியலாம். நான் அதைச் செய்யலாமா?

:clap2:
 
Raji Madam

Thanks, you like it, I thought that since the story is a bit long , you may not read it!!

I sincerely wish that the thread opener reads it.
 

Dear P J Sir,

I read it for two reasons.

1. It is in Tamil. :thumb:

2. It is written by Sri. Jayakanthan
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SEEKING ANSWERS :: Is a person brahmin by birth or actions and other questions?

This subject has been discussed many times in Tamil Brahmin Forum. This time the question of the thread "Is a person brahmin by birth or actions and other questions ?". Genuine doubt indeed. As I understand it is the qualities of life led by an individual which dertermines the Varna according to Bhagavad Gita, Varna or Classification depending on one's Guna, inherent tendency.

Lord says in Bhagavad Gita Verse 41 Chapter 18:

braahmankshatriyavishaam shoodraanaam cha parantapa |
karmaani pravibhaktaani svabhaavaprabhavairgunaihi || 41 ||


The duties of braahmans, kshatriyas, vaishyas and shoodras, O scorcher of foes, have been classified according to the gunaas, which have born of nature.

One who pursues learning spiritual knowledge of Brahma Vidya and practices Satwic life enunciated in Sruthi and Smrithi is called a Brahmin. When Varnashrama Dharma was followed in the society the child of Brahmin parents got the natural advantage to follow the life of Brahmana. But according to Bhagavad Gita Verse 42, Chapter 18 the quallities for a Brahmana are:

shamo damastapaha shaucham kshaantiraaarjameva cha |
jnyaanam vijnyaanamaastikyam brahmakarma svabhaajavam || 42 ||


Restraint of mind and sense organs, penance, purity, forgiveness, and also, knowledge, wisdom and faith, these are the natural duties of a braahman.

However children born of other Varnas turn to be Brahmana by their qualities and actions. We have plenty of examples in our spiritual heritage for that.

In my opinion, all these are secondary, the primary requirement for a Brahmin (as also for any human being) is to be a good human being first and last. Our spiritual journey starts from adherence to Dharma, Love, Compasion and Truth.
 
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