SEEKING ANSWERS :: Is a person brahmin by birth or actions and other questions ?

[Ramki1]

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Pranams to all

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin as my mother and father claim; Iam trying to seek answers for some prominent questions that are nagging me;

a) Is a person Brahmin by birth or by the way of actions ? What are the specific slokas and references for that in vedas, Sruthi and Smrithis ?

b) What are the verses/slokas in vedas and smritis that tell what a brahmin should do ? ( Sandhi, Agnihotram, Vaishvadevam)

c) Is there any negative effects ( Papas) for not doing nithya karmas ? If yes, what are the verses/slokas in vedas/smritis that explains the same ?

Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Regards
Ramki

 

[renuka]

Dear Ramki Ji,

You have come to the right place...this topic has been discussed many times right from DNA(Deoxyribonucleic acid) to MBA(Mind Body Atma).

 

[sangom]

Pranams to all

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin as my mother and father claim; Iam trying to seek answers for some prominent questions that are nagging me;

a) Is a person Brahmin by birth or by the way of actions ? What are the specific slokas and references for that in vedas, Sruthi and Smrithis ?

b) What are the verses/slokas in vedas and smritis that tell what a brahmin should do ? ( Sandhi, Agnihotram, Vaishvadevam)

c) Is there any negative effects ( Papas) for not doing nithya karmas ? If yes, what are the verses/slokas in vedas/smritis that explains the same ?

Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Regards
Ramki

Shri Ramki,

Nobody is a brahmana by birth; it is only when all the samskaras up to and including the Upanayanam are duly and properly (i.e., in accordance with what the Dharma Sastras lay down) that a person becomes a dwija or 'twice born', and, even after this the person concerned has to learn completely, at least that veda which his forefathers had been learning and following. If a person is very bright or persistent and masters two vedas (i.e., one veda in addition to his own) then such a person used to be called "Dwivedi" (Dube) in north India. Similarly those learning three and four vedas in all were known as trivedi and chaturvedi (chaube).

After mastering the vedas, the person who wanted to be a real brahmana had to take up one or more of the six avocations which only a brahmana was permitted to do - adhyApanam (teaching the vedas learnt to other dwija brahmacharis), adhyayanam (learning the vedas, i.e., continue the learning), yajanam (performing vedic sacrifices or yAgas), yAjanam (performing yAgas for others or, causing others to do yAgas for oneself or assisting others in the performance of the yAgas), dAnam (gifting to others as dAnams) and pratigraha (accepting dAnams offered by others who are entitled to do so by the SAstras).

Even if one learns vedas and all that but still takes up government, private sector jobs or even acquires school/college (secular) education, such persons are not brAhmanas at all; they are classifiable as SUdras only. (Most of the members of this forum - including myself - are such SUdras only in the eyes of our SAstras. This may not be palatable to the so-called 'believers' lobby' here and this post may therefore get deleted very soon. If you are lucky you will see this.)

The grihya sUtra which one's forefathers have followed lays down all the nithya karmas to be done by a brAhmana.
If a brAhmana fails to perform the nithya karmas due to reasons beyond his control. the sAstras provide for specific 'prAyaschittas' for such lapses. The annual "Avani avittam" is not a prAyaschitta for any lapses in doing nithya karmas; it is only to atone for having any of the nine types of sins which are briefly listed in the mahAsamkalpa itself.


All that I have said above are true. But for the relevant SlOkas, verses and references in vedas (the Sruti) and the smritis, one has to take pains and learn the vedas and as many Dharmasastras as possible. It is for you to study and get convinced or to reject offhand and go about under the grand notion of being a (great) brAhmana.

 

[Nara]

...

Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Is this serious, are we off to another round of this, really!!!!

 

[prasad1]

Is this serious, are we off to another round of this, really!!!!

You are right, I have no interest is rehashing the same discussions.

Ramkiji,
Search the TBsite before posting.

 

[Ramki1]

Shri Ramki,

Nobody is a brahmana by birth; it is only when all the samskaras up to and including the Upanayanam are duly and properly (i.e., in accordance with what the Dharma Sastras lay down) that a person becomes a dwija or 'twice born', and, even after this the person concerned has to learn completely, at least that veda which his forefathers had been learning and following. If a person is very bright or persistent and masters two vedas (i.e., one veda in addition to his own) then such a person used to be called "Dwivedi" (Dube) in north India. Similarly those learning three and four vedas in all were known as trivedi and chaturvedi (chaube).

After mastering the vedas, the person who wanted to be a real brahmana had to take up one or more of the six avocations which only a brahmana was permitted to do - adhyApanam (teaching the vedas learnt to other dwija brahmacharis), adhyayanam (learning the vedas, i.e., continue the learning), yajanam (performing vedic sacrifices or yAgas), yAjanam (performing yAgas for others or, causing others to do yAgas for oneself or assisting others in the performance of the yAgas), dAnam (gifting to others as dAnams) and pratigraha (accepting dAnams offered by others who are entitled to do so by the SAstras).

Even if one learns vedas and all that but still takes up government, private sector jobs or even acquires school/college (secular) education, such persons are not brAhmanas at all; they are classifiable as SUdras only. (Most of the members of this forum - including myself - are such SUdras only in the eyes of our SAstras. This may not be palatable to the so-called 'believers' lobby' here and this post may therefore get deleted very soon. If you are lucky you will see this.)

The grihya sUtra which one's forefathers have followed lays down all the nithya karmas to be done by a brAhmana.
If a brAhmana fails to perform the nithya karmas due to reasons beyond his control. the sAstras provide for specific 'prAyaschittas' for such lapses. The annual "Avani avittam" is not a prAyaschitta for any lapses in doing nithya karmas; it is only to atone for having any of the nine types of sins which are briefly listed in the mahAsamkalpa itself.


All that I have said above are true. But for the relevant SlOkas, verses and references in vedas (the Sruti) and the smritis, one has to take pains and learn the vedas and as many Dharmasastras as possible. It is for you to study and get convinced or to reject offhand and go about under the grand notion of being a (great) brAhmana.

Sir:

With due respect -
If nobody is a brahmin by birth as per your post.. then what is the criteria for doing Upanayanam.. ??

Thanks
Ramki

 

[Ramki1]

Sir I understand .. I searched the site but Iam not seeing any replies where they are refering to actual Vedic slokas or Slokas from Smritis..
I even tried to discuss this with a learned sastrigal but he also does not know the exact vedic references for all my questions.
I want to really know if this is part of our shastras;
Thanks for your understanding ..

 

[sangom]

Is this serious, are we off to another round of this, really!!!!

The funny (and, at the same time, sad) part of it all is the questioner is not prepared to 'believe' those who answer and wants the relevant verses from vedas, srutis and smritis, as if he will understand the meaning at a glance!!

Still, in accordance with what little I know, I have tried to explain that our claim to brahmana status is just nominal, based on the caste label attached by present government guidelines.

 

[Ramki1]

Sangom Sir:

My question is very simple .. If basis of our religion is Vedas and smritis .. Please quote the verses from the same.. Iam asking this because I do not know and Iam sure that there are more smart people than me in this forum.. It is not the question of belief or non-belief..

Thanks
Ramki

 

[biswa]

Sangomji,

Awesome answer! Followup question: Was Chanakya not a true Brahmin since he took up government service? I thought he was the archetype.

Even if one learns vedas and all that but still takes up government, private sector jobs or even acquires school/college (secular) education, such persons are not brAhmanas at all; they are classifiable as SUdras only.

 

[prasad1]

Sangomji,

Awesome answer! Followup question: Was Chanakya not a true Brahmin since he took up government service? I thought he was the archetype.

According to the constitution Sangomji is wrong. According to SC Sangomji is wrong.
According to Sangomji no one is Brahmin (because his definition is wrong).
I do agree with Sangomji that we have all changed our profession. I had the same question that geeta says we should follow our own Dharma, but we have changed our dharma, are we lost?

The resounding answer is that definitions keep changing. Do what you can, and live your life the best you can. If you have to live your life by someone else's definition you will fail.

 

[sangom]

Sangomji,

Awesome answer! Followup question: Was Chanakya not a true Brahmin since he took up government service? I thought he was the archetype.

Chanakya was, in fact, a recruit to the Ajivika sect (religious nomads/mendicants) according to some authorities. There is one version which says that Chanakya had escaped Dhanananda's trap for him (Chanakya) in the guise of a naked Ajivika. In any case, if we follow the Dharma Sastras, brahmana should not accept any government service or private sector service. There are only the authorized six avocations for a true brahmana envisaged in/by our scriptures.

But today nobody bothers about all that the scriptures say, but they all want very much the "brahmana by birth" credit and feelings of superiority. That is what is reflected in some of the posts here. (e.g., "Do what you can, and live your life the best you can. If you have to live your life by someone else's definition you will fail." — "But claim the brahmana caste status at any cost.)

 

[prasad1]

Chanakya was, in fact, a recruit to the Ajivika sect (religious nomads/mendicants) according to some authorities. There is one version which says that Chanakya had escaped Dhanananda's trap for him (Chanakya) in the guise of a naked Ajivika. In any case, if we follow the Dharma Sastras, brahmana should not accept any government service or private sector service. There are only the authorized six avocations for a true brahmana envisaged in/by our scriptures.

But today nobody bothers about all that the scriptures say, but they all want very much the "brahmana by birth" credit and feelings of superiority. That is what is reflected in some of the posts here. (e.g., "Do what you can, and live your life the best you can. If you have to live your life by someone else's definition you will fail." — "But claim the brahmana caste status at any cost.)

Sangomji, That was a mischievous (or should I say malicious) appendage to what I said, and you know it. A smily face does not hide your intent.
You too are a Brahmin (Prove me wrong by Indian constitution) , you can not get a reclassification as a ST/SC to gain any benefits.
Nobody claims anything that is detrimental to their cause.

Sangomji,
A simple yes or no answer:
Are you a brahmin?

 

[sangom]

Sangomji, That was a mischievous (or should I say malicious) appendage to what I said, and you know it. A smily face does not hide your intent.
You too are a Brahmin (Prove me wrong by Indian constitution) , you can not get a reclassification as a ST/SC to gain any benefits.
Nobody claims anything that is detrimental to their cause.

Sangomji,
A simple yes or no answer:
Are you a brahmin?

I am a brahmin by birth only, not by the education I had, by the avocation I pursued in life, and so I do not claim brahmana status as my entitlement. I am just another human being, an Indian citizen. That is all.

 

[Vaagmi]

Pranams to all

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin as my mother and father claim; Iam trying to seek answers for some prominent questions that are nagging me;

a) Is a person Brahmin by birth or by the way of actions ? What are the specific slokas and references for that in vedas, Sruthi and Smrithis ?

b) What are the verses/slokas in vedas and smritis that tell what a brahmin should do ? ( Sandhi, Agnihotram, Vaishvadevam)

c) Is there any negative effects ( Papas) for not doing nithya karmas ? If yes, what are the verses/slokas in vedas/smritis that explains the same ?

Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Regards
Ramki

Dear Ramki,

Welcome to this great forum. You will not get an answer to your question here because this forum has two factions. One that believes brahmins are unique and another which thinks brahmins should give up everything unique in their culture and become extinct. You can read the posts on this (there are many in the archives) and get an idea of what it is all about. It would better if you read vedas and listen to scholars and elders for getting your doubts cleared. Here you would get more confused. Already people have started talking about their pet theories here. Take care and beware. All the best.

 

[prasad1]

I am a brahmin by birth only, not by the education I had, by the avocation I pursued in life, and so I do not claim brahmana status as my entitlement. I am just another human being, an Indian citizen. That is all.

As usual you can not give a simple honest answer.
Are you a Brahmin? Yes or No.
By the prevailing constitution of India you are a brahmin. End of argument because that is the law of the land. Rest all are explanations and excuses.
Manu smirithi is not Indian constitution. So no body asked your guna or profession.

There is no entitlement to claim for Brahmans. So get over it.
We all are in this planet. We are inhabitant of the world.
I actually agree with you, as I too do not fit the definition of Brahmin by Guna or profession. I have self respect, and proud of my parents. I have nothing to ashamed off, either for my birth or the life I have been given. I would not mind if we do not discuss caste at all.


If an agency gave away Rs 1,00,000 to every Brahmin, everybody will try to prove themselves a Brahmin.

 

[prasad1]

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin

You would have tried to find What the words mean. In this day of google, you would have googled. Similarly you would have searched the TB site. You will find various definitions, it is upto you to choose the definition you like.
We can all give opinions.

 

[prasad1]

It would better if you read vedas and listen to scholars and elders for getting your doubts cleared. Here you would get more confused. Already people have started talking about their pet theories here. Take care and beware. All the best.

That post was a slap on the face of people on this site. There are elders and scholars on this site too (may be not according to you), but they are.
Read Vedas!!!!!!! are you serious?
How much time do you think Ramkiji has? There is only one life time for this birth, and that is not enough.
Do you think you will find one clear definition in the version of Veda you read. You are not being honest in your advice. If you have no knowledge there is nothing wrong in accepting that and being honest about it. There is need to send that person in wild goose chase.

 

[Nara]

....By the prevailing constitution of India you are a brahmin. End of argument because that is the law of the land. Rest all are explanations and excuses.
Manu smirithi is not Indian constitution. So no body asked your guna or profession.....

This is not the first time I have seen this line of argument. I am afraid this is a specious view. I am ready to be corrected if I am wrong, but IG does not issue Brahmin caste certificates. Even if they did it makes no difference. IG issues Caste certificates to verify BC, SC/ST for the purpose of extending reservation and other benefits. Otherwise, IG does not interfere in the social and religious life of ordinary people.

Due to social and family indoctrination young children grow up identifying with a jAti. There is no law in India that says a Brahmin, or NB, must continue to harbor caste sentiment until death. People are free to jettison casteist thinking at anytime. It is left purely to individuals. We don't need a Government to tell us jAti sentiment is evil, all we need is a strong moral compass.

Thank you ....

 

[sangom]

Dear Ramki,

Welcome to this great forum. You will not get an answer to your question here because this forum has two factions. One that believes brahmins are unique and another which thinks brahmins should give up everything unique in their culture and become extinct. You can read the posts on this (there are many in the archives) and get an idea of what it is all about. It would better if you read vedas and listen to scholars and elders for getting your doubts cleared. Here you would get more confused. Already people have started talking about their pet theories here. Take care and beware. All the best.

Shri Ramki,

May I humbly suggest that you do not get 'misdirected' and leave this forum, in order to find out about your true brahmana/non-brahmana status from elsewhere.

Shri Vaagmi is correct only to the extent that there are two groups (or opinion trends) in this group. While Shri Vaagmi himself may belong to the group which he describes as "One that believes brahmins are unique", the second group, to which I belong, does not at all say that "brahmins should give up everything unique in their culture and become extinct"; my own take on this subject is that there is nothing "unique" in the brahmin culture of today because we brahmins have become 'secular' (i.e., deviating farther & farther from the ideal brahmana life) and are therefore only "percentage brahmins", like 10%, 15%, etc., brahmanas. I, therefore, feel that it may not be of any real relevance or justification to hold on to notions like "unique brahmin culture".

Your OP was a very direct and sincere one and I have given my sincerest answers to your questions/doubts. If any one here feels like claiming "brahmana" status and any 'uniqueness' inherent in brahmanas, one has necessarily to look to our scriptures and not to our Constitution of India or any orders of the Government of India, simply because it is our scriptures which laid down who is a true brahmana, thousands of years earlier than our Constitution or Government of India.

 

[sangom]

As usual you can not give a simple honest answer.
Are you a Brahmin? Yes or No.
By the prevailing constitution of India you are a brahmin. End of argument because that is the law of the land. Rest all are explanations and excuses.
Manu smirithi is not Indian constitution. So no body asked your guna or profession.

There is no entitlement to claim for Brahmans. So get over it.
We all are in this planet. We are inhabitant of the world.
I actually agree with you, as I too do not fit the definition of Brahmin by Guna or profession. I have self respect, and proud of my parents. I have nothing to ashamed off, either for my birth or the life I have been given. I would not mind if we do not discuss caste at all.


If an agency gave away Rs 1,00,000 to every Brahmin, everybody will try to prove themselves a Brahmin.

Shri Prasad,

I am confident that my answer was a direct one. But it goes against your agenda and so, as is your habit, you are throwing innuendos. Can you furnish the 'chapter & verse' from the Constitution of India in terms of which I 'have to claim/accept' brahmin caste status? And if the Constitution is silent about this, and you have no certificate issued, by the Tahsildar, citing the relevant clause/section of the Constitution certifying that you are a "brahmin by caste as per clause..., sections... of the Constitution of India", will it be possible for you to accept that your brahmin status is not clear as per the Constitution which is the law of the land, as you vehemently proclaim, and thus stop trumpeting your brahmin status at least hereafter, in this forum at least?

Even if some agency gives a lakh or more of rupees to every brahmin, such an agency will naturally ask for some evidence as proof and such a thing will be unconstitutional/illegal today. And, I can tell you on my word of honour that I will not go after getting such evidence or apply for the grant.

The difference between you and me is that I do not think I have to claim brahmana status in order to be proud of my parents who were, even otherwise, recognized by the society around them as decent, respectable, law-abiding citizens and also as brahmanas. And that is enough for me. My parents who are both not alive now, may also not have desired anything more than their children living as decent, law-abiding citizens, recognized as such by the society; being recognized as brahmana is not in our hands and so we cannot go on shouting "I am a brahmana, accept my claim or else..."; it is for the society around us to decide.

 

[prasad1]

Tamil Nadu PDF Print E-mail
Caste Certificate
Obtain Caste Certificate : Tamil Nadu
The system of issuing permanent Community Certificate was introduced in the year 1988 in Tamil Nadu for the reduction of unnecessary pressure on the persons and also on the official machinery. This is valid for securing admission in all Educational Institutions and other professional institutions and also for employment.
Tamil Nadu

 

[prasad1]

There is no universal system of caste throughout India. The belief that the Vedic varnashrama dharma was the “caste system in embryo,” seems to be flawed. Anybody can become a Brahmin varna (intellectual group), but one has to be born into Brahmin caste to be a Brahmin caste. However, conversion to Brahmin tribe or religion is possible, just like modern Judaism allows conversion to Jewish faith, and hence there are several sub-castes within the Brahmin tribe and Jewish tribe. If there is a confusion regarding varna (class) and caste (tribe), it is because the word Brahmin has several meanings including the ultimate God, earthly God, intellectual, teacher, priest, Brahmin tribe/caste etc. The caste (tribe) system is different from the ideal vedik varna (class) system. Varna/class depends on a tribe's social status that can be changed, whereas caste/tribe is by birth and cannot be changed by conversion. Tribal identity of the offspring can be modified by inter-marriage.

 

[Nara]

....The system of issuing permanent Community Certificate was introduced in the year 1988 in Tamil Nadu for the reduction of unnecessary pressure on the persons and also on the official machinery. This is valid for securing admission in all Educational Institutions and other professional institutions and also for employment.
Tamil Nadu

Prasad, can't you understand the purpose of this, it is to make sure those who are eligible for reservation are able to avail of the benefits they are entitled to by law. This has nothing to do with individual sense of what is right and wrong. Your comments about varna are supremacist, you may not have intended them that way, but taken at face value, they are. Comparison with Jews are completely off base, reform Judaism accepts converts, do you know of anyone who is an accepted converted Brahmin? Wannabe SV brahmins love to cite Joseph Iyengar, but ask them whether any of them is willing to accept him as a genuine Iyengar, in the sense of giving and taking bride?

Prasad, you are wrong about your comments on the Constitution of India, or any of the enacted laws of IG. There is nothing that forces people into jAti identity. Only people with broken moral compass identity themselves in caste terms, B or NB.

 

[V.Balasubramani]

Pranams to all

Iam supposedly a Tamil Brahmin as my mother and father claim; Iam trying to seek answers,


Thanks in advance for all answers and guidance;

Regards
Ramki

Mr. Ramki,

Now you have got umteen number of answers. Be guided by picking up the right answer as per your belief/faith, using your own DISCRETION.



Goodday