Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman seeking answers – Part 1

[pannvalan]

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அம்மா ரேவதி,

பாகம் - 2 எப்போது வெளி வரும்?

 

[kunjuppu]

... Shri Kunjuppu, Yours seems to be a one-track mind....

sangom,

coming from you re aspirations of my character, i am very surprised. i will let it pass.

suffice to say, that many women are in the workforce due to necessity. that is the reality of today's world that in many cities they need to income to make ends meet.

other women have a sense of fulfilment and need to go to work.

if a woman does not desire to go to work after childbirth, then she becomes outside the scope of this discussion. if she can and wants to stay home for a few years after child birth then she is outside the scope of this discussion.

my passion is for those whose tenure in the workforce is conitunual and an evaluation of their needs.

what you have stated, to me, is more a one rule for all, than my notes which are very specific. maybe i was not clear enough there.

thank you.

 

[ganeshrev]

Thanks Valli and Shri PannValan Sir!

Looks like I will be tied up with office and home till this friday and I hope to post part 2 this weekend.

I have to be careful in putting my thoughts in a very clear manner - misinterpretation is quite easy because of the fact that the forum members dont know each other personally - My words become my ambassador.

Regards and Namakarams
Revathi

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Kunjuppu Sir and Shri Sangom Sir,

Sorry to intrude your coversation and since it seems to be about woman's work and life, I thought I can put in my two cents(based on my experience and that of my woman relatives)

Both Kunjuppu Sir and Sangom Sir are right.

I do love my work, the financial independence it provides me to help my parents and the charity work, gives me a sense of satisfaction when my boss and my clients like and appreciate my work.I chose engineering in late 80s without knowing the problems it will pose (IT jobs were not too many when I graduated in early nineties) for a woman.I topped the class in Class XII and secured very good marks in Entrance and was a National merit Scholarship holder .I got adminssion in top engg college in Coimbatore and my only aim was to ease my father's financial burden. I used to hear my father say - "En savings wil be enough to pay only Nadaswaram Vasikaarvar" . My whole goal was to ease my father's burden and also I was the eldest of 3 daughters with no Poorviga Assets. From Kadugu to Bills, my father with his govt salary had to bear.

I started working for money - in fact I did not choose to go abroad for MS though many classmates with lower grades went - they all had money.

I did enjoy my work in a factory where you learn, grow and got some money too. I also think it would have been difficult for my Dad to get me married off with out a job.I was also very naive - I dont remember putting conditions for my future husband - (rather dont even know that I can put conditions - after all we are ponnai pethava) .My Dad selected one horoscope, met the boys father and my father asked my consent and I got married.(Only one Penn Parkal for me and all my sisters!)

But when my daughter was born, there were times I longed to be at home - To be fair to my inlaws and my husband, they took care of my kid - I had to leave by 7 AM and come by 7 PM. I never felt guilty - but the longing to be at home, performing domestic work without looking at the clock and the deliverables at office - cannot be described in words.But I could not leave my job. We know a single income will not be enough for leading comfortable life in a city like Bangalore. Also my husband and inlaws used to ask "What will you do once your daughter goes to regular school from her fifth age ". An idle mind is the root cause of all problems and I chose to go to work.I also felt it is my duty to use my education - after all Govt Subsidised my Engg Degree!( in fact I saved money from Scholarship - Paid Semester fes, hostal fees and gave some money to my father!)

Like every other, I also moved to IT and I can say I also earned the effects of Sun rise Industry.

Now If I say I am going to leave my job, my daughter says "No!". For , it is a matter of pride that her Mom works when most of her classmates' Mom do not work!

I know my cousin's wife , who had been a supreme court lawyer - who left practising - was persuaded by her daughter of 6 years to go to work.It is "Izzat Ki Savaal" for the daughters to boast about their respetive mothers.SHe had no need to go to work - her husband was earning very handsomely! But after some time, her mind became rusted and she started practising in a smaller way at bangalore. Money is no longer the carrot, the satisfaction is.

I also know another relative - a very good eye surgeon - was asked to stop working by her husband to look after her two kids and aging in laws - She told me that she became rusted and now she is getting back to the operation theatre.


Today - if you ask me - Am I working essentially for Money or for satisfaction - It is for the second.(Though money is always welcome - Can I manage the expenditure of my family without my income? I think I will be able to! )

So the priority is different at each point of the time in a woman's life and also the needs of the family also decides the same.

So both of you are right in your own way!

Again my two cents!(of course unrelated to my original posting)

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[sangom]

Shri Kunjuppu Sir and Shri Sangom Sir,

Sorry to intrude your coversation and since it seems to be about woman's work and life, I thought I can put in my two cents(based on my experience and that of my woman relatives)

Both Kunjuppu Sir and Sangom Sir are right.

I do love my work, the financial independence it provides me to help my parents and the charity work, gives me a sense of satisfaction when my boss and my clients like and appreciate my work.I chose engineering in late 80s without knowing the problems it will pose (IT jobs were not too many when I graduated in early nineties) for a woman.I topped the class in Class XII and secured very good marks in Entrance and was a National merit Scholarship holder .I got adminssion in top engg college in Coimbatore and my only aim was to ease my father's financial burden. I used to hear my father say - "En savings wil be enough to pay only Nadaswaram Vasikaarvar" . My whole goal was to ease my father's burden and also I was the eldest of 3 daughters with no Poorviga Assets. From Kadugu to Bills, my father with his govt salary had to bear.

I started working for money - in fact I did not choose to go abroad for MS though many classmates with lower grades went - they all had money.

I did enjoy my work in a factory where you learn, grow and got some money too. I also think it would have been difficult for my Dad to get me married off with out a job.I was also very naive - I dont remember putting conditions for my future husband - (rather dont even know that I can put conditions - after all we are ponnai pethava) .My Dad selected one horoscope, met the boys father and my father asked my consent and I got married.(Only one Penn Parkal for me and all my sisters!)

But when my daughter was born, there were times I longed to be at home - To be fair to my inlaws and my husband, they took care of my kid - I had to leave by 7 AM and come by 7 PM. I never felt guilty - but the longing to be at home, performing domestic work without looking at the clock and the deliverables at office - cannot be described in words.But I could not leave my job. We know a single income will not be enough for leading comfortable life in a city like Bangalore. Also my husband and inlaws used to ask "What will you do once your daughter goes to regular school from her fifth age ". An idle mind is the root cause of all problems and I chose to go to work.I also felt it is my duty to use my education - after all Govt Subsidised my Engg Degree!( in fact I saved money from Scholarship - Paid Semester fes, hostal fees and gave some money to my father!)

Like every other, I also moved to IT and I can say I also earned the effects of Sun rise Industry.

Now If I say I am going to leave my job, my daughter says "No!". For , it is a matter of pride that her Mom works when most of her classmates' Mom do not work!

I know my cousin's wife , who had been a supreme court lawyer - who left practising - was persuaded by her daughter of 6 years to go to work.It is "Izzat Ki Savaal" for the daughters to boast about their respetive mothers.SHe had no need to go to work - her husband was earning very handsomely! But after some time, her mind became rusted and she started practising in a smaller way at bangalore. Money is no longer the carrot, the satisfaction is.

I also know another relative - a very good eye surgeon - was asked to stop working by her husband to look after her two kids and aging in laws - She told me that she became rusted and now she is getting back to the operation theatre.


Today - if you ask me - Am I working essentially for Money or for satisfaction - It is for the second.(Though money is always welcome - Can I manage the expenditure of my family without my income? I think I will be able to! )

So the priority is different at each point of the time in a woman's life and also the needs of the family also decides the same.

So both of you are right in your own way!

Again my two cents!(of course unrelated to my original posting)

Namaskarams
Revathi

Smt. Revathi,

Thank you for the balanced summing up.

 

[happyhindu]

An idle mind is the root cause of all problems and I chose to go to work. ...

Today - if you ask me - Am I working essentially for Money or for satisfaction - It is for the second. (Though money is always welcome - Can I manage the expenditure of my family without my income? I think I will be able to! )

So the priority is different at each point of the time in a woman's life and also the needs of the family also decides the same.

A beautiful post Revathi. Hats off to you..

Truly there is something called 'satisfaction' that money cannot bring. So going to work is not just about money. Its about self-fulfillment of aspirations. Many in the older generation hardly realise that. Because for the older generation going to work usually meant only money most times. This reminds of my parents.

Shri Kunjuppu is so different from my father. Dad hardly ever helped mom. We saw him helping mom only when mom was down with health probs. Yet dad wud do things grudgingly. Kunjuppu ji, your family is truly blessed to have you.

Revathi, your post also remind me so much of what my mom went thru..

For the longest time mom had to cook, clean, take care of kids, handle troublesome inlaws and their whims, insecurities and fancies, and work herself to complete exhaustion, every single day of the year until i was about 17 - 18. And during all those years, she had to make do with just 4 to 5 hours of sleep on most days.

Thankfully times are different now. And women are continuously changing. The traditional Indian man unfortunately remains unwilling to budge from his comfort zone. And often ends up becoming a pawn firmly controlled by his parents long after he becomes a father himself.

From my obervations, in the current times, households in which both the DIL and MIL go to work appear to be the most peaceful. Next in the list are families where either the MIL or the DIL goes to work. When both DIL and MIL stay home doing nothing really productive, it can sometimes become a veritable hell for everyone in the household (esp if they live under one roof).

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Shri Kunjuppu Sir and Shri Sangom Sir,

Sorry to intrude your coversation and since it seems to be about woman's work and life, I thought I can put in my two cents(based on my experience and that of my woman relatives)

Both Kunjuppu Sir and Sangom Sir are right.

I do love my work, the financial independence it provides me to help my parents and the charity work, gives me a sense of satisfaction when my boss and my clients like and appreciate my work.I chose engineering in late 80s without knowing the problems it will pose (IT jobs were not too many when I graduated in early nineties) for a woman.I topped the class in Class XII and secured very good marks in Entrance and was a National merit Scholarship holder .I got adminssion in top engg college in Coimbatore and my only aim was to ease my father's financial burden. I used to hear my father say - "En savings wil be enough to pay only Nadaswaram Vasikaarvar" . My whole goal was to ease my father's burden and also I was the eldest of 3 daughters with no Poorviga Assets. From Kadugu to Bills, my father with his govt salary had to bear.

I started working for money - in fact I did not choose to go abroad for MS though many classmates with lower grades went - they all had money.

I did enjoy my work in a factory where you learn, grow and got some money too. I also think it would have been difficult for my Dad to get me married off with out a job.I was also very naive - I dont remember putting conditions for my future husband - (rather dont even know that I can put conditions - after all we are ponnai pethava) .My Dad selected one horoscope, met the boys father and my father asked my consent and I got married.(Only one Penn Parkal for me and all my sisters!)

But when my daughter was born, there were times I longed to be at home - To be fair to my inlaws and my husband, they took care of my kid - I had to leave by 7 AM and come by 7 PM. I never felt guilty - but the longing to be at home, performing domestic work without looking at the clock and the deliverables at office - cannot be described in words.But I could not leave my job. We know a single income will not be enough for leading comfortable life in a city like Bangalore. Also my husband and inlaws used to ask "What will you do once your daughter goes to regular school from her fifth age ". An idle mind is the root cause of all problems and I chose to go to work.I also felt it is my duty to use my education - after all Govt Subsidised my Engg Degree!( in fact I saved money from Scholarship - Paid Semester fes, hostal fees and gave some money to my father!)

Like every other, I also moved to IT and I can say I also earned the effects of Sun rise Industry.

Now If I say I am going to leave my job, my daughter says "No!". For , it is a matter of pride that her Mom works when most of her classmates' Mom do not work!

I know my cousin's wife , who had been a supreme court lawyer - who left practising - was persuaded by her daughter of 6 years to go to work.It is "Izzat Ki Savaal" for the daughters to boast about their respetive mothers.SHe had no need to go to work - her husband was earning very handsomely! But after some time, her mind became rusted and she started practising in a smaller way at bangalore. Money is no longer the carrot, the satisfaction is.

I also know another relative - a very good eye surgeon - was asked to stop working by her husband to look after her two kids and aging in laws - She told me that she became rusted and now she is getting back to the operation theatre.


Today - if you ask me - Am I working essentially for Money or for satisfaction - It is for the second.(Though money is always welcome - Can I manage the expenditure of my family without my income? I think I will be able to! )

So the priority is different at each point of the time in a woman's life and also the needs of the family also decides the same.

So both of you are right in your own way!

Again my two cents!(of course unrelated to my original posting)

Namaskarams
Revathi

Revathi,

Your case study should be an eye opener for lot of girls. I am really sorry that you could n't continue your brilliant academic career due to the circumstances in your family those days. But you seems to have compromised every thing to support your parents and I really appreciate your sacrifice.

Probably during the same academic period as yours , I have seen one of my sister compromising her elder daughter's education in spite of her securing Government of India merit scholarship and supported her son who is not as brilliant as her elder sister. Gender discrimination was there during that time in tamil brahmin homes but now it has changed for the better. Let us all hope that gender discrimination vanishes from our community totally at the earliest.

I am sure you will adjust yourself to the present circumstances and come out colourfullly without any problem. I personally feel that rituals are purely voluntary and nothing is compulsory. Except the Vedhas which cannot be altered, all other things are highly flexible in Sanadhana Dharma and you can use your own consciousness and decide accordingly.

All the best

 

[valli]

Dear Mr Sangom

Greetings! Thank you for your kind explanation in the 1st paragraph though I feel you could have omitted

You have lifted one sentence out of context and are interpreting it just to score a point, I feel.

In my post 65 I was openly and sincerely asking (interpretating wrongly?) something and not tyring to misinterpret or least of all try to "score a point". I am still new to this forum and such a comment from a veteran doesn't help.

And this one did hurt a bit

But when I do the cooking and what I prepare, cannot be as per your [COLOR=#da7911 !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important]prescription[/COLOR][/COLOR], (morning coffee/tea, etc.) but my wife's.

Thank you Sir

Regards
Valli

 

[happyhindu]

I personally feel that rituals are purely voluntary and nothing is compulsory. Except the Vedhas which cannot be altered, all other things are highly flexible in Sanadhana Dharma and you can use your own consciousness and decide accordingly.

This is unfortunately untrue. Dharmashastras cannot be altered. And there is no question of flexibility afforded in that. One either follows or becomes a vratya, or an outcaste. This is just for info only. And is meant to be ignored by those who do not like such posts or have no interest in shastras.

 

[hariharan1972]

a typical thread albeit a good one.

since somewhere the discussions touched upon the aspect of cooking, for those who havent tried it - both men and women - they should really try it.

cooking for me is therapeutic and a mood enhancer. generally i loathe all the serials/shows but the ones i love are cookery shows, however "pathetically" they present.

some maamis who appear in the shows talk as if they are in their own kitchens and me & my friend used to laugh at their choice of phrases and words.

recently i have been smitten by the show in star world, masterchef australia, the poor indian imitation of which has just gone on air, in star plus.

masterchef australia & even india for that matter showcases men & women from various walks of life whose passion is cooking. the enjoyment they show doing cooking is something to be seen to be realized. those who think cooking isnt for them, i'd recommend them a dekko. (either indian or the australian).

re : the issue of household chores etc, my view is that someone's got to do it and so there cannot be any mandate on women doing it. it is incumbent on the male to do his part not as a charity or a show of empathy but as a matter of responsibility.

while we are still discussing it, let's look at some practical realities. in another decade or so, i am of the view that there would be no supply of maids / servants for household chores, unless you are ahem ahem... well connected to muka or something. (naraji : cant resist he he !)

does anyone know of a maid whose son or daughter is being "groomed to take over" from the mother ? every maid wants her son/daughter to atleast be a factory worker if not anything else and so we are really moving towards a "self-service society".

it will absolutely stupid for the menfolk to think that their charmed lives will continue for ever.

so guys roll up your sleeves and pick up that scotchbrite

re : womenfolk required to fast et all, i find it very strange again. it is actually news to me that men ate before their poonul change. i havent but i havent also done sandhyavandhanam for ages now.

btw, kunjuppu sir, adhu காராடியான் நோன்பு i thought, you made it கரடியான் நோன்பு after the hapless sloth bear

 

[happyhindu]

Valli,

A sincere suggestion.

When asking, knowing, studying, questioning, learning, stating, etc -- please do not bother about sensibilities -- either your own or others. As long as the discussion is civil, please state things exactly how you feel.

When the discussion veers off to casting aspersions, the discussion is obviously not worth it. And when it veers off to name-calling, consider such ppl for what they are worth (if any worth) and leave it. But if the other side writes things that are not true, please do not hesitate to write in what you feel (for it just does not matter how 'monumental' some posters may paint themselves to be).

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Revathi,

I wrote to you in a previous posting as follows.


"Except the Vedhas which cannot be altered, all other things are highly flexible in Sanadhana Dharma and you can use your own consciousness and decide accordingly".


I am giving below some of the speeches of Kanchi Paramacharyal. I hope you can read Tamil and please go through the three speeches.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

Here He says that Vedas are the only thing which cannot be altered. All the three Great Acharyas Sankarar, Ramanujar and Madhvar didn't question the four Vedas. Differences between the great three Acharyas cropped up only when they started writing Bashyas for Brahma Sutram.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

In the above speech, Paramacharyal says that Dharma Sastras are not final and lot of things have to be learnt from Ladies and other Varnas including the fourth Varna people.

Author of Aapasthama Sutram which most of us follow now, Maharishi Apasthambar has clearly said that every thing could not be given in written form and please consult ladies and other varnas for any clarification.

When a brahmin male recite Abhivaadhaye, he tells atleast three rishis names he follows , his gothra and then sutra. Personally I follow Aapasthamba sutra and other learned people here can tell if there are other sutras. Since Rishi Apasthambar has given clearance to consult others and decide, I feel that I have enough leverage in the practices.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

Here Paramacharyal gives very clear guidelines.

First Vedhas

Then Dharma Sastras

Third practices of our Rishis

Fourth -Practices of learned scholars

Fifth - Our own consciousness.

Paramacharyal warns not to bring the fifth option in the front right at the beginning since our mind may be polluted but permits us to have the fifth option at the end if we cannot follow the other four.

I don't know whether you are a follower of Paramacharyal and if not please consult your own Acharya and do accordingly.

All the best

 

[C RAVI]

Revathi,

I wrote to you in a previous posting as follows.


"Except the Vedhas which cannot be altered, all other things are highly flexible in Sanadhana Dharma and you can use your own consciousness and decide accordingly".


I am giving below some of the speeches of Kanchi Paramacharyal. I hope you can read Tamil and please go through the three speeches.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

Here He says that Vedas are the only thing which cannot be altered. All the three Great Acharyas Sankarar, Ramanujar and Madhvar didn't question the four Vedas. Differences between the great three Acharyas cropped up only when they started writing Bashyas for Brahma Sutram.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

In the above speech, Paramacharyal says that Dharma Sastras are not final and lot of things have to be learnt from Ladies and other Varnas including the fourth Varna people.

Author of Aapasthama Sutram which most of us follow now, Maharishi Apasthambar has clearly said that every thing could not be given in written form and please consult ladies and other varnas for any clarification.

When a brahmin male recite Abhivaadhaye, he tells atleast three rishis names he follows , his gothra and then sutra. Personally I follow Aapasthamba sutra and other learned people here can tell if there are other sutras. Since Rishi Apasthambar has given clearance to consult others and decide, I feel that I have enough leverage in the practices.

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

Here Paramacharyal gives very clear guidelines.

First Vedhas

Then Dharma Sastras

Third practices of our Rishis

Fourth -Practices of learned scholars

Fifth - Our own consciousness.

Paramacharyal warns not to bring the fifth option in the front right at the beginning since our mind may be polluted but permits us to have the fifth option at the end if we cannot follow the other four.

I don't know whether you are a follower of Paramacharyal and if not please consult your own Acharya and do accordingly.

All the best

Extensively engrossed!!!!!! We follow Aapasthamba sutra too...Majority are the followers of the same..

 

[happyhindu]

It is quite unfortunate that the sources that are self-contradictory in nature are being used to advise people on following certain things.

RVR has given references, according to which, Paramacharyal said dharmashastras are not final. RVR says Paramacharya gave clear guidelines that Vedas are first, then Dharmashastras, then Rishis next and so on.

However, it is also a fact, that the same Paramacharyal held the dharmashastras equal to the Vedas, not secondary or inferior to Vedas: Sruti-Smriti - Srauta-Smarta from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org: He also held the dharmashastras inviolable: Smritis - not Independent Works from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

I find the use of kamakoti sources confusing and wud suggest that one consults with their own gurus for guidance. Because when it comes to self-contradiction and lack of clarity, there are quite a few samples in the kamakoti sources. Am giving 3 of them:

1) On one hand the "Smrti-Muktaphala" written by Vaidyanatha Dikshita does not prohibit vedic education to others (please correct if am wrong). This work "Smrithi Muktaphala" though a recent work, came to be accepted as a nibhandana by both Smarthas and Vaishnavites: Vaidyanatha-Diksitiyam from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org: Yet, Paramacharyal said it is inacceptable to make vedic learning common to all, and has also put down Arya Samaj in this respect: Can a new Brahmin Caste be Created ? from the Chapter "Grhasthasrama", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org: No one seems to know why such a contradiction exists.

2) We are told that the source of Smrithis is the Vedas. But we are not given an explanation how Smrithis are derived from Vedas. Instead, we are told the ‘best testimony’ for this is a poet’s work, Kalidasa in Raghuvamsam! And the Raghuvamsam story is actually considered as an ‘authority’ in establishing the fact that Smrithis are in accordance with Vedas !! : The Source of Smritis is the Vedas from the Chapter "Dharmasastra", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org:

3) We are told that a ‘brahmin’ must know various forms of arts. But he has to perform one rite after the other: A Wrong Notion from the Chapter "Varna Dharma For Universal Well-Being", in Hindu Dharma : kamakoti.org: If he kept doing (or learning to do) rites from dawn to dusk, wonder if he got time to learn those arts. Also, sometimes i wonder if Vishwamitra did one rite after the other, from morning to night, to became a brahmin (??). If Vishwamitra had done so, wonder if he wud have had time for dhyana (to become a mantra drishta); or to burn off his vasanas in tapasya to become ‘re-born’ as a dwija. But well i need to remind myself that we are dealing with purvamiamnsa followers dealing with uttaramimansa ways.


Its equally possible that i am the one who lacks clarity.

PS: these are my views. They are not intended to offend anyone. They are meant to offer insights to those who feel confused about following certain things in their daily lives. Those who do not like to read such things, or those who feel such topics should not be mentioned at all, may please feel free to skip this post.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Extensively engrossed!!!!!! We follow Aapasthamba sutra too...Majority are the followers of the same..

Thanks Ravi,

I also feel that majority of us follow only Aapasthamba Sutra and Maharishi Apasthamba is very clear in his guidelines.

When we construct a house and do Bhumi pooja, we give full respect and authority to the mason to do the pooja as he likes. That is what Maharishi Aapasthamba has prescribed.

Every year during the first seeding of paddy, we permit our farm workers mostly daliths to do the seeding ceremony and he does it in his own ritualistic fashion which we all accept.

I think we have to respect Sanaadhana Dharma which accepts all the practices.

All the best

 

[rcscwc]

This is unfortunately untrue. Dharmashastras cannot be altered. And there is no question of flexibility afforded in that. One either follows or becomes a vratya, or an outcaste. This is just for info only. And is meant to be ignored by those who do not like such posts or have no interest in shastras.

Wrong. They cannot be altered to mean the exact opposite, but local and temporal adjustments are possible. Come on, even Manu did not not make his law cast iron ones and clearly advises local amendments.

Why cannot we adjust to the demands of times and place?

 

[RVR]

Wrong. They cannot be altered to mean the exact opposite, but local and temporal adjustments are possible. Come on, even Manu did not not make his law cast iron ones and clearly advises local amendments.

Why cannot we adjust to the demands of times and place?

Shri rcscwc,

Personally I would like to learn more about the practices of brahmin community speaking other than Tamil Language.

Please go through the following extracts of Rig Veda

"The rejection of adoption on the earlier annals of history can be evidenced from the followingextract from Rig Veda: "oh Agni, no son is he who spring from others,"

1 It even went to the extent of observing that considering sons Bi gottenby others as onesown was the "path of fools and such a child
shouldnot be taken nor even be though of in the mind"

2 this condemnation of secondary sons is further manifest from the
grihayasrtras, which providehe code for domestic rituals in the ancient
Vedic society, overtly excluded rituals for the taking of a secondary son.

With the advent of Dharmashastras, the institution of adoption eventually
received societal acceptance and became ingrained in Hindu mores
there by altering the concept of son ship forever,"

But today among Tamil Brahmin community adoption is practiced. I asked a purohit but he couldn't give me proper answer. What is your opinion and how the same is practiced among your sect of our community?

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Wrong. They cannot be altered to mean the exact opposite, but local and temporal adjustments are possible. Come on, even Manu did not not make his law cast iron ones and clearly advises local amendments.

Why cannot we adjust to the demands of times and place?

Shri RCSCWC,

I have merely stated the claim of the kamakoti peetham. This applies to tamil smarthas who follow the mutt. It is also claimed that smarta never contradicts shrauta (though it is quite apparent how much smrithis contradict the vedas even to a layperson). I request you to go thru the entire collection of articles here: Hindu Dharma: : kamakoti.org

Am very well aware that dhamarshastras can be adjusted. Even medhatithi and yaska, the old commentators mentioned so (in terms of time based changes).

But in the case of kamakoti Peetham, the nibhandana of Medhathi was overridden, in favor of Smrithi Muktaphalam (of Vaidhyanatha Dikshita) which came to be favoured by the Peetham. As such, i have also stated 3 points from the kamakoti articles which are self-contradictory / lack clarity (one of which includes a point from Smrithi Muktaphalam).

I notice that northie brahmins are a lot more easy going and adaptable to changes. But the same is not found in traditional tambrams. Perhaps, it is due to the leadership that orthodox tambrams cud not readily avail changes to themselves as per changing times.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

I wish all brahmins irrespective of the language they speak and schools of thought they follow accept Vedas as the ultimate doctrine and stick to it.

All other scriptures are only subordinate to Vedas and practices may vary from time to time and also from place to place

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

...

btw, kunjuppu sir, adhu காராடியான் நோன்பு i thought, you made it கரடியான் நோன்பு after the hapless sloth bear

hari,

we pattars kill both tamil and malayalam. if you thought i killed the கரடி

my better half was listening to the நலம் நலம் அறிய ஆவல் from காதல் கோட்டை and could not figure how நலம் ie ground could talk.. it took a while to explain to her about நலம் and நிலம்

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear reva,

Re your post #79

It must be an eye opener for a lot of people here. Nothing is more effective that truth emanating from the horse’s mouth, I guess.

Even in the west, with its 20 year or so lead in women in the workforce, it is only recently, the concept that a woman needs a work for self fulfillment has been accepted. I have not heard of any men talking about ‘a woman’s place is home to take care of the kids’ any more. Such talk will simply be laughed off as ignorance.

As you can see, when I tried to recount this concept re fulfilment, here in the forum, I could not ever expect to have the impact that you have had. So I should bow and lift my hat, which I am doing now,

You would be surprised, it is now fashionable among women here in the west, that the discussions take place about the ‘guilt’ of leaving the baby at home. Babies have a thing of doing this. the discussion will probably linger as long as it is only women who continue to have babies. Some day it may change with men bearing for 9 months but I am too old for that, even if such were available tomorrow.

another dear friend of mine, told me, that to her, when she hugs her baby daughter, all the tensions and troubles appear to simply vanish. The best tension reliever is what she describes her toddler. Babies can do a lot of nice things to you, and is but natural for a mother not to be parted. Even dads these days have the same issue.

Reva, you are lucky in that you had the support of in laws. My mother, though forbidden to work, when she was looking out for me 30 years ago, stipulated a girl with ambition and desire to work. We know that many women are not so lucky in getting support of inlaws or husband, and my heart goes out to them.

Hopefully, as we mature in this forum, myself included, we can all step down from, ‘I know best’ attitude, to ‘let me hear your story and let me learn from it’.

I am wont to refer to johari window here – for the uninitiated, here is a Wikipedia reference. We all need to accept that not only do we have ‘blindspots’ but a large amount of ‘unknown’s as well.

Johari window - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pannvalan]

அது காரடையான் நோன்பு; காரடியான் நோன்போ கரடியான் நோன்போ அன்று.

 

[Nara]

. it took a while to explain to her about நலம் and நிலம்

K, a pattar friend of mine from eons ago cracked all of us up when he told us about his sister wondering why she can't drink the kuththalam water when she saw a sign that said "இங்கே மலஜலம் கழிக்கக்கூடாது". ha ha!

 

[ganeshrev]

Hi Happy Hindu,

Thank You! Yes it is true that where neither DIL and MIL are working, the peace of the house is at risk and Mega Serials rule.Also what your Mom under went is sadly true w.r.t most of our parents.

Shri RVR Sir, Thank you. You wont believe - What you have said has happened to my neighbor's family - A Kannada Smartha.The girl is extremely intelligent and got CET rank for Medical admission. But her parents denied her an opportunity saying there is no money for the girl since they have to get her married off and the boy has to be an engineer! The girl nevertheless, got a good posting in State Bank of India by writing Bank recruitment exams when she was in 3rd year B Sc and now she is pursuing other exams in the bank.She is hardly 23. (I am not sure what the boy is doing).I could not believe this when her Mom told me that educating Son is more important than daughter.This was in 2005-2006!

But I also find some girls in my relatives circle persuade their parents to get them Engg seat in pvt colleges with mediocre marks (Very Mediocre by today's standards - say 70%) through some Quota like NRI quota because Engg degree is the "in" thing! (That they are finding it difficult to get a placement is another story)

Though I could not get into higher studies, I am happy that my parents are happy

Shri Kunjuppu Sir, Thank you for your kind words

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[ganeshrev]

OK, Thanks for the posting with replies to my original query- Shri Nara, Shri Sangom, Shri Kunjuppu, Smt Valli, Shri Brahmanyan, Shri tbs, Shri srvana, Shrii Pannvalan, Smt Happy Hindu, Shri RVR.I infer the following.

1. From various postings , I infer that KARADAYAN NONBU is very regional - only some people follow this.This has nothing to do with Vedas/Shastras/Other holy books.This is more of a purana based symbolic festival So as long as you pray God for the well being of the family,that is fine.I liked Shri Nara's words-

If you want to stay empty stomach for karadaiyan Nonbu till evening, then do it for you and your family. If you want to eat something, but would like to perform the ritual, don't feel guilty, just do it, isn't it a tautology that what you feel for your husband and family is more important than the rules for the ritual

(But I also think aloud - Why is there no such ritual from men towards well being of woman?No answer expected though)

2.Whereas Avani Avittam is a Vaidgha Festival - Sastras talk about this.In fact Men are supposed to be following Stricter rituals than the women as per Shri Nara and Shri Sangom.But somehow(??), the current practice is different.In my family , my MIL says that "Tiffen sappitu than Poonal Mathikkanum".Even in Poonal functions, I have seen the Poonal boys will be having Pongal first before Brahmopadesam.(We girls will be longing to be invited to eat that pongal - No way! - We will never be invited )

I still feel the compromise for men was like MPs of India increasing their own salary - men had power and introduced leniency when ever their comfort was considered - But women had to follow the practices as perceived by the family/shastras.I would not blame men folk fully - I often wonder why the Senior Woman in the family fail to understand the women's problems? In fact in many cases the MILs and other ladies blow this out of proportion of not following practices, making the life of DIL uncomfortable .I have hardly seen FIL shouting/pestering the DIL .

3. Regarding the Theetu question, I still have not got clarity.I cannot believe our Vedas are so insensitive regarding woman's feelings.But without dragging the Vedas/Shastras into it and as per Shri Brahmanyan "most of us do not know what is written in our holy scriptures", I feel men can be kind enough to understand and appreciate the loss! This is my humble opinion.In today's world, a 9/11 or 26/11 invokes sad feelings on unknown people's loss and why not spare some for the better half.

Thanks for the various links provided by Shri RVR and HH. I need to read them .I do not even know any basic stuff regarding this .My daily prayers include very minimal slokas learnt in my young age.

Thank you all for your time and patience.

Namaskarams
Revathi