Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

[Brahmanyan]

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Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

I have visited numerous Churches in England (Bath, Bristol, Salisbury, London, St Albans to name a few) - all 1000+ years.When I enter these churches, I feel the same Serenity as I feel in any Hindu temple . The churches are also reeling under the financial problems to maintain and preserve and there are a lot of tourists visiting there.Except that there is an appeal for donation and a nominal fee to enter the church - that too only those with Historical importance like Salisbury - I did not find any kind of commercialism or materialistic attitude in those places. And we say Western culture is materialistic!

Dear Revathi,

You said it. For me any place of worship is sacred. The serene atmosphere in Churches is some thing that we should emulate in our places of worship. I had the opportunity of visiting few big churches including Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral in London, Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and Cologne Cathedral, in Germany. Each one has its own architectural beauty. The Cologne Cathedral in Rhineland, Germany , a World Heritage Site, described by UNESCO as "an exceptional work of human creative genius" is some thing to remember.This Gothic architectural marvel with its twin spires (towers) raising to an incredible height of 516 ft (157.m) is unbelievable sight. When we compare this with the height of Brahadeeswarar Temple Gopuram of 216 ft, we will understand its magnitude. The interior of this magnificent place of worship is equally massive. When I was inside this marvelous piece of art, I wondered how the belief in God or a great power has driven the humanity to bring out their best in creative genius to be dedicated its creator.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

It is very sad story. in fact, I found similar things in various temples through TN. It isnot the case in Karnataka and kerala. what we can do about this is a big question. I am afraid those who eat/cheat God's money will be punished

Shri Sudeshwer,

Temple employees/priests who extract/swindle money from devotees do not, as far as I have seen, come to any great grief; some of them have some trouble, just like the rest of the society. I, therefore, feel that the sentiment of "God's money, divine retribution" etc., are only the solace for the naive who subject themselves to cheating wilfully.

Suppose we look at it this way. The gullible devotees have some past Karmas for which they are destined to be cheated in the name of God. They go to the temple/s, are cheated and the priests and temple employees enrich themselves, because those people are destined to become rich in this birth with the direct help of God for the good karmas they performed in their past lives. Is this not a possible scenario? Ultimately, who decides 'paapam' & 'punyam', God or the society?

The gullible devotees may be getting rid of their sins and that is the benefit of the temple visit.

Of course my view will not be acceptable to many, because we have a feeling that we are the arbiters of 'Dharma' and its course.

I will refer you to the story of the snake trying to eat a frog and the Sishya preventing it. The guru asked him why he did that. The sishya replied that he saved the frog's life, a punya kaaryam, to which the Guru said he had simultaneously deprived the snake of its food; is it not a "paapam"? Who decides which is more weighty?

 

[vsubbu48]

Madam,
Thanks a lot for the information. For the first time in my life I will be visiting Srirangam in the second half of this month. You have given me enough warning.

 

[vsubbu48]

Incidentally where is Part I of your post? I could not locate.

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Vsubbu,

It is here http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/5190-musings-confusions-tambram-woman-seeking-answers-part-1-a.html

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[ganeshrev]

Madam,
Thanks a lot for the information. For the first time in my life I will be visiting Srirangam in the second half of this month. You have given me enough warning.

Shri VSubbu,

Hope you have a nice time.Trichy is a nice place and you should visit other temples in Trichy too.The weather is good during December. But during Vaikunta Ekadesi, there will be a lot of crowd!

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[ksugavanam]

Here in Kovaipudur, coimbatore there is a perumal temple run by a trust. Here all sorts of people visit . The treatment metted out by the archakas to others (including Iyers) is entirely different from the way they treat Iyengar devotees. Iyengars are given special treatments in offering different sevas, placing of sadaari etc. But for any festival they will come and collect big amounts from other communities for annadhanam etc but during the festival, they will give special treatment to Iyengar devotees and give preference to them in seating at annadhanam. In this situation, how can we expect unity between different brahmin communities? I have worked in different parts of India and it is only in Tamilnadu I find this type of thing happening. Who is to be blamed?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

Here in Kovaipudur, coimbatore there is a perumal temple run by a trust. Here all sorts of people visit . The treatment meted out by the archakas to others (including Iyers) is entirely different from the way they treat Iyengar devotees. Iyengars are given special treatments in offering different sevas, placing of sadaari etc. But for any festival they will come and collect big amounts from other communities for annadhanam etc but during the festival, they will give special treatment to Iyengar devotees and give preference to them in seating at annadhanam. In this situation, how can we expect unity between different brahmin communities? I have worked in different parts of India and it is only in Tamilnadu I find this type of thing happening. Who is to be blamed?

Sri Ksugavanam,

It is my view that there will be discrimination in all places where money, power and politics play its role. It is upto the individual to decide whether he/she should go there. As per the agama practices Archakars should stand from a specific point offer Holy thulasi theertham and place the "Satari" (holy feet of the Lord) on the head of the devotee. This practice is followed strictly by ISKCON Temples.
There is no use of fixing the blame, instead take curative action by bringing this discrimination to the management of the temple.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[tbs]

Shri VSubbu,

Hope you have a nice time.Trichy is a nice place and you should visit other temples in Trichy too.The weather is good during December. But during Vaikunta Ekadesi, there will be a lot of crowd!

Namaskarams
Revathi

hi Revathi,
i visited SRI RANGAM during vaikunta ekadasi day....its really horrible...unbeleivable crowd....but i had nice vaikunta vaasal darshanam....

very long time back....same way i visited vaikunta ekadasi in triplicane sri parthsarathy temple.....the same as sri rangam experience...

being chennaite i enjoy triplicane/mylapore/ mambalam life......my feeling now .. we shoud not visit big temples on festival days.....

festival days are good for home life......but its tough to understand........

regards
tbs

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Revathi,

You said it. For me any place of worship is sacred. The serene atmosphere in Churches is some thing that we should emulate in our places of worship. I had the opportunity of visiting few big churches including Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral in London, Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris and Cologne Cathedral, in Germany. Each one has its own architectural beauty. The Cologne Cathedral in Rhineland, Germany , a World Heritage Site, described by UNESCO as "an exceptional work of human creative genius" is some thing to remember.This Gothic architectural marvel with its twin spires (towers) raising to an incredible height of 516 ft (157.m) is unbelievable sight. When we compare this with the height of Brahadeeswarar Temple Gopuram of 216 ft, we will understand its magnitude. The interior of this magnificent place of worship is equally massive. When I was inside this marvelous piece of art, I wondered how the belief in God or a great power has driven the humanity to bring out their best in creative genius to be dedicated its creator.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Sir,

I happened to visit the Cologne cathedral 11 years back. It is imposing. There were lot of crowd there, mainly tourists like me.

For some reason, there was no serenity as is normally associated with historic places. It was more like the Madurai Meenakshi temple, a complex rather than an unified structure.
Being close to the railway line, the beauty too is somewhat marred.
May be the mood that was on a Sunday with somewhat a muggy weather has got to do with my impression of the place.

With regards,
Swami

 

[Brahmanyan]

Sir,

I happened to visit the Cologne cathedral 11 years back. It is imposing. There were lot of crowd there, mainly tourists like me.
For some reason, there was no serenity as is normally associated with historic places. It was more like the Madurai Meenakshi temple, a complex rather than an unified structure.
Being close to the railway line, the beauty too is somewhat marred.
May be the mood that was on a Sunday with somewhat a muggy weather has got to do with my impression of the place.

With regards,
Swami

Sri Swami,

Perhaps you may be correct. This cathedral attracts a lot of tourist population which disturbs the serenity. But as a tourist my interest was more on the artistic marvels of the Cathedral, which was explained by our guide. Perhaps had I gone at the time of holy Service offered by the bishop I would have enjoyed the peaceful atmosphere.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

 

[[email protected]]

To Smt Revathi madam your postings are tolate this kind of loting money from the devotees are artifial propaganda by some tell you will visit your wishes will fulfill, just become mad ppeople started rushing towards the temples. In all temples the Idol made from Stone,or metals, how this unspoken idols give you peace , just we stared thing and stop going to temples every thing will come in line,because the real GOD is Living in every Human Body, that why bible says The Temple of living God is your Body, if we read our siddhar teaching the said just serch the god with in you.Kabir says Gods Darshan is in your own body, like wise every wear cheeting . I have stoped going to Temples in the age of 10 but some times I have to accompany some one just i will go with them and explain the past experience in TN temples. So best way in Home and serch GOD with in you. with regards. S.R.K.

 

[[email protected]]

To All : as far as I concern the best maintains are the GURUthwaras, the sikhs give respect to all and treat every one same. No money for darshans or selling of tickets for offerings.They also runs Community Kitchens called LUNGAR, In our Satsang Ghars we also runs Lungars when SEWA is going on. So best place is Satsang centers, no money no tickets. s.r.k.

 

[suraju06]

Why we visit temples.......

Hi friends,

What i am writing here in this thread may sound very philosophical. But it is not. If it is , may be i live philosophy.

I go to Srirangam frequently. I stand in the queue to have darshan. On some days the queue is long and some days it is just very short. But once I get into the temple to have darshan, I stand in the queue and have darshan and then only come out. I go to that temple because I know it is the deity before which great souls in the past have paid their obescience and done saranagati. It is the land on which walked many Azhwars and Acharyas. It is the deity which made an Azhwar declare that "the eyes which have had the darshan of Arangan will not see anything else". All these and many more thoughts cross my mind every time I stand in the queue to have darshan. May be this is the reason why I dont see any inconvenience due to the length of the queue or the occasional queue jumping indulged in by some people. My mind is fully tuned to one goal-that of the darshan. Once the darshan is over Arngan is fully occupying my mind space. I usually just ignore the archakas who stand near the 'thirumana thoon' with a receipt book. On some rare occassions I contribute what I can and collect the receipt for what it is worth and move on. The temple has many locations also which have a history behind them like the Mettazhagiyasingar sannidhi, the punnai tree on the banks of the pushkarini etc. Over all, all these make my visit to the temple very pleasant and satisfying. I do not look for any 'vibrations' from the deity, nor for the clinical precision and time management that I have seen in some of the churches and Gurdwaras -- not because there is anything wrong with them, but because that is just not what I look for when I am in a temple. In fact during my last visit(after an uncomfortable journey by bus from Chennai) to the temple, the queue was quite long, but it was not boring or painful to wait because my mind was occupied fully with the last line of just one paasuram "engeyum karai kaanaatherikadal vaay meendeyum vangaththin koomberum maapparavai ponrene".

I am not sure whether I am a loner or a looney. No offence intended to those who feel bad about the way our temples are managed.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Smt. Revathy,



Regarding your post #12 above, my views are as under:

I have been trying to tell that temple-going is not a prescribed routine for a brahmin. This idea of earning "punyam" or getting rid of "pApam" through temple visits which very often serve the dual purpose of holiday travel-cum-earning punyam, is a very late entrant into our society. Another reason is a 'nErccai' - promise or vow to visit a ceratin temple and perform certain pooja.

I recall a senior colleague of mine, a very orthodox Tanjavur brahmin, who said once that his grandfather, a very orthodox brahmin, never visited even the temple at one end of the agrahaaram and when my colleague as a boy, asked him why he was not going to temple, it seems he just smiled and said 'you will learn why, when you grow sufficiently old.'.

Yet another point is that temples have become accessible to all sections of hindus. (This was not the case, say, hundred years before; temples were exclusive preserves of the higher castes.) Because of this important change when we refer to "preserving" brahmin culture, IMO, the temples do not, and need not, figure in it at all.

In this context I usually wonder why Arunagirinathar went to almost all the murugan temples or where murugan had a "sannidhi" and still declared,

காவியுடுத்தும் தாழ்சடை வைத்தும்
காடுகள் புக்கும் தடுமாறிக்-
காய்கனி துய்த்துங்காயமொறுத்துங்
காசினிமுற்றும் திரியாதே

Does it not discourage temple-visits, which the very people who chant Tiruppukazh do religiously?

When the PM of this very nation is unable to do a certain thing where are we?

My comments in blue:

I had also visited the Salisbury church but when I saw the various interments done under the floor in the very same church building, it gave me a very melancholy feeling of being in a cemetery-cum-church. Anyway these are personal impressions.

In my only visit abroad, I found something similar in one of the churches in town of Hildeshiem in the Lower Saxony, Germany. A famous bishop was interred and curiously the church premises is being shared by both catholics and protestants.
I think in all major places of worship, as by Abrahamic traditions, a cemetery is a part of the complex. Highly revered clergymen are interred within the same building and place they are interred are called crypts. Many mosques do have a kabrastan abutting the place of worship. I have no knowledge about about synagoues.


With regards,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Sorry my last post was intended to be a response to Sri Sangom's post #15.

regards,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

My paati who lives in Agraharam looked down upon me when I said that I visited the nava graha kovil. They are so narrow minded. I say practice vaishnavism but why don't enter sivan kovil. Why such kinda attitude.

My response:
I find this attitude particularly pronounced amongst the old vaishnavites. The reasoning trotted out is that god can take care of us, why there are navagrahas. In a broad sense it is true. Curiously, I find vaishnavite astrologers asking their clients to do pariharams to the navagrahas and most of the navagraha shetras are siva sthalas!

I will narrate another incident;

My father had a friend a vaishnavite. His mother of older generation had similar attitudes. Another common friend had to two sons; elder one Hari and the younger Siva. She would call the former by name and not the latter by his name.

May be someone like Sri. Nara can explain how it all ingrained in the vaishnavite belief system.
The younger generation of vaishnavites have a far open outlook on this matter.

With regards,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

You can go to Gunaseelam (a vaishnava shetram on the northern banks of Cauvery), vayalur (murugan temple), besides Samayapuram.

Regards,
Swami

 

[Nara]

.....May be someone like Sri. Nara can explain how it all ingrained in the vaishnavite belief system.

The younger generation of vaishnavites have a far open outlook on this matter.

Dear Shri SwamiTaBra, I really don't think this is a question of open outlook at all, if open outlook is to be encouraged then all religious boundaries must be removed.

Coming to the Vaishnavas being "narrow" and the Smarthas being "open", there is a logical explanation for it, given you buy into their respective view on theism.

Smarthas believe in an ultimate nirguna Brhman with everything mere reflection of that only reality. So, Rama, Krishna, Sivan, Murugan, Kali, all are, for them, ultimately unreal and only a fleeting reflection of that single reality of undifferentiated pure consciousness. Given this premise, they have no problem going to any temple and praying to any god as a stepping stone to the final realization of what they think the ultimate reality is. In fact they have no logical reason to object to the Christian god or converting to Christianity, but they do so vehemently all the same.

In the case of SVs, young or old, the ones who are aware of the principles upon which their religion is built, have no choice in the matter, they have to disavow all gods except Sriman Narayana. Their system is built on the premise that only Sriman Narayana is supreme Brhman and everything else is eternally dependent on him, supported by him and exist to serve him. From the jeevas in the bodies of gods like Brahamma, Siva, Indra, down to a blade of grass, are badda jeevas and are not different in essence from any other badda jeeva.

Also, the boons these gods may be able confer are minor and ephemeral, and they derive the power to grant even these meager wishes from Sriman Narayana. But, the ultimate goal of all jeevas, namely, release from Samsara, can only be granted by Sriman Narayana, nobody else has that power.

One more thing, SVs believe that they enter into a matrimony of sorts with Sriman Narayana upon Samasrayanam or Saranagathi, taking upon the role of a faithful wife. The jeevas with this knowledge, want to get all their wishes, from minor ones like passing an exam to the ultimate one, release from Samsara, only through their "husband" Sriman Narayana. Swami Nammazhvar says, உன்னை அல்லால் ஏதும் குறை வேண்டேன்.

These are the reasons for SVs not visiting any temple other than that of Sriman Narayabna and his avatharas. Hope this gives some context.

Cheers!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Shri SwamiTaBra, I really don't think this is a question of open outlook at all, if open outlook is to be encouraged then all religious boundaries must be removed.

Coming to the Vaishnavas being "narrow" and the Smarthas being "open", there is a logical explanation for it, given you buy into their respective view on theism.

Smarthas believe in an ultimate nirguna Brhman with everything mere reflection of that only reality. So, Rama, Krishna, Sivan, Murugan, Kali, all are, for them, ultimately unreal and only a fleeting reflection of that single reality of undifferentiated pure consciousness. Given this premise, they have no problem going to any temple and praying to any god as a stepping stone to the final realization of what they think the ultimate reality is. In fact they have no logical reason to object to the Christian god or converting to Christianity, but they do so vehemently all the same.

In the case of SVs, young or old, the ones who are aware of the principles upon which their religion is built, have no choice in the matter, they have to disavow all gods except Sriman Narayana. Their system is built on the premise that only Sriman Narayana is supreme Brhman and everything else is eternally dependent on him, supported by him and exist to serve him. From the jeevas in the bodies of gods like Brahamma, Siva, Indra, down to a blade of grass, are badda jeevas and are not different in essence from any other badda jeeva.

Also, the boons these gods may be able confer are minor and ephemeral, and they derive the power to grant even these meager wishes from Sriman Narayana. But, the ultimate goal of all jeevas, namely, release from Samsara, can only be granted by Sriman Narayana, nobody else has that power.

One more thing, SVs believe that they enter into a matrimony of sorts with Sriman Narayana upon Samasrayanam or Saranagathi, taking upon the role of a faithful wife. The jeevas with this knowledge, want to get all their wishes, from minor ones like passing an exam to the ultimate one, release from Samsara, only through their "husband" Sriman Narayana. Swami Nammazhvar says, உன்னை அல்லால் ஏதும் குறை வேண்டேன்.

These are the reasons for SVs not visiting any temple other than that of Sriman Narayabna and his avatharas. Hope this gives some context.

Cheers!

Thanks a lot for elucidating the SV position.

The reason I say SV of younger generation are more open, in extending the belief to other gods (of Hindu tradition) as manifested in many of them making their annual pilgrimage to Sabarimala.

Now to the concept of ishta devata, that suppossedly is held up as the symbol of Hindu catholicity, SVs choice on the issue should be somewhat restricted.For smarthas and most others it appears to be a a la carte menu.

I suppose largely Hindus do not have problem with accepting Jesus as god or son of god. The defence mechanism starts working when it is asserted that Jesus is the only god.

With regards,
Swami

 

[tbs]

Thanks a lot for elucidating the SV position.

The reason I say SV of younger generation are more open, in extending the belief to other gods (of Hindu tradition) as manifested in many of them making their annual pilgrimage to Sabarimala.

Now to the concept of ishta devata, that suppossedly is held up as the symbol of Hindu catholicity, SVs choice on the issue should be somewhat restricted.For smarthas and most others it appears to be a a la carte menu.

I suppose largely Hindus do not have problem with accepting Jesus as god or son of god. The defence mechanism starts working when it is asserted that Jesus is the only god.

With regards,
Swami

hi swami,
you may be right.....but the interesting part in smarthas.....we called KEETTU NAMAKKARA SMARTHAS....i belong to this sect of smarthas...

we pray and behave like SV's ....we wear namam like vadagalai.....kuladeivams are sriman narayanan only....but we follow smartha system...

we go to shiva temple....morning naamam ...sometimes even vibhuti in the evening.....we easily mingle with smathas than pure SV's....this

sect pre dominantely in singanallur/some part in palakkad agraharams......we are under vadama smartha sect.....so we are neither

neither pure SV's nor pure saivas.......but now a days our younger generations mostly follwed as normal smarthas than old rigid

naamakara smarthas.....sometimes i feel SV's are like catholicism of hinduism.......sorry for shri Nara sir....adyenunudaya chinna

vilakkam.....


regards
tbs

 

[SwamiTaBra]

hi swami,
you may be right.....but the interesting part in smarthas.....we called KEETTU NAMAKKARA SMARTHAS....i belong to this sect of smarthas...

we pray and behave like SV's ....we wear namam like vadagalai.....kuladeivams are sriman narayanan only....but we follow smartha system...

we go to shiva temple....morning naamam ...sometimes even vibhuti in the evening.....we easily mingle with smathas than pure SV's....this

sect pre dominantely in singanallur/some part in palakkad agraharams......we are under vadama smartha sect.....so we are neither

neither pure SV's nor pure saivas.......but now a days our younger generations mostly follwed as normal smarthas than old rigid

naamakara smarthas.....sometimes i feel SV's are like catholicism of hinduism.......sorry for shri Nara sir....adyenunudaya chinna

vilakkam.....


regards
tbs

Yes.

They is a sprinkling of this sect (if they can be called so) in the Thanjavur region too and around Madurai as well.

They also call themselves "vadama muthina (ripened) vaishnava".
I don't know how the description came about.

Except for the namam they have on their foreheads, they are practically smarthas.

Regards,
Swami

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

There are quite a large number of 'Smarthas' living like SVs in SRIRANGAM,TIRUCHIRAPALLI DISTRICT.My classmate (I used to think he is a SV while in the school) married a smartha girl who happened to be my wife's friend
and then only I could find out that he belongs to SMARTHA community.For generations they play VEENA before LORD RANGANATHA in SRIRANGAM TEMPLE.He retired as VICE-PRINCIPAL of a college in TIRUCHY and leading a retired life in Srirangam.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

There are quite a large number of 'Smarthas' living like SVs in SRIRANGAM,TIRUCHIRAPALLI DISTRICT.My classmate (I used to think he is a SV while in the school) married a smartha girl who happened to be my wife's friend
and then only I could find out that he belongs to SMARTHA community.For generations they play VEENA before LORD RANGANATHA in SRIRANGAM TEMPLE.He retired as VICE-PRINCIPAL of a college in TIRUCHY and leading a retired life in Srirangam.

In all likelihood he is Prof. G.Rangarajan of Physics department; in fact one of his sons and I were classmates at National College.

I think they became full-fledged SV -- nothing of mid-way sort.

I was told that he was all set to become the Principal, but the National College Council headed by K.Santhanam decided to supersede him as he had just one year or so to go for retirement when the appointment was due.

With rgds.,
Swami

 

[Brahmanyan]

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman– part II

I have been reading many articles and books on the subject of Smarthas, Vaishnavas and Madhvas. I give below the summery of my understanding of the subject. I request the learnered members to comment and correct the same if they find any factual error.

All those Brahmins who are followers of Vedic rituals enunciated in Sruthi and Smrithi are called Smarthas. It is an acknowledged fact that Sri Ramanuja, Sri Vedanta Desika and Sri Manavala Mamunigal , are vaitheega Brahmins by caste, belonged to the Vadama Smartha community and Periya Nambi, (Mahapoorna) belonged to Smartha Brihacharanam . All of them are Vaishnavas, worshipers of Sri Mahavishnu. Even Sri Madhvacharya was a Smartha by birth. Sri Sankaracharya was a Smartha and he has written many scriptures on Vishnu. The philosophical differences came to fore only when the three acharyas wrote their (mahabhashyas) intrepretations to Upanishads, Brahmasutras and Bhagavad Gita (Prasthanatrayi). And the followers divided into Advaitins, Sri Vaishnavas and Madhvas. Sect markings on their bodies appeared only after this to identify their philosophical adherence.
Smarthas are not Saivites or the followers of Saiva Siddhantha. Smarthas accept the six systems of philosophy (Shad Darshanas) ie: Nyaya, Vaisesika, Samkhya, Yoga, Poorva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimasa (Vedanta).

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.