• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman seeking answers – Part 1

Status
Not open for further replies.
The article in the link below explains certain psychological realities...

http://www.openmindinstitute.com/re...-not-do-their-fair-share-of-household-chores/

A greater level of friendliness and love, clear communication with respect towards each other and avoiding expressing anger, taunting, indirect attacking, double meaning ridiculing statements and insulting for the wrong doing of household chores may help couples live for each other peacefully , sharing everything every time as per their fair and just full acceptance by mutual consent.
 
there are womenfolk who find fault with me for coming to the woman's cause..

How right Shri Kunjuppu - I find convincing women a difficult task in such cases.

My FIL can be labelled as a liberal with Modern views and we live in a joint family.My MIL is also not too conservative - she understands and I should say it is my choice for observing vrathas and traditions (some times even madisar) in case I am busy with office work and have to travel abroad (Recent one is good example - had to leave for London in short notice and hence Could not celebrate Deepavali)

But when the relatives of my in-laws visit, especially the woman folks from chennai - it is a "Audit and Assessment" time for me! I would be under scrutiny all the time - on what I do ! Of course the words spread in case I am below the set bar of standards in their opinion.


so sorry to hear about your chithi..must have been awful for your mom & grand parents..my heartfelt sympathies. for somethings, time does not heal the wounds..
Yes it is so painful -of course the other half married within a year!
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

You would agree that my duties and obligations towards my wife is a different matter unconnected to the practices prescribed for women such as vrata etc. I am sure that no where would the scriptures say to ill-treat your wife or not show consideration for her.

FYI, I am married and we are both happy. I thank you for the post and I take this opportunity to say that I enjoy reading all your posts for both its style and substance.
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

You would agree that my duties and obligations towards my wife is a different matter unconnected to the practices prescribed for women such as vrata etc. I am sure that no where would the scriptures say to ill-treat your wife or not show consideration for her.

FYI, I am married and we are both happy. I thank you for the post and I take this opportunity to say that I enjoy reading all your posts for both its style and substance.

dear sravana,

thank you for your kind note esp enjoying my posts.

delighting my own woman is something dear to me.

why don't you for just one week, give your wife a rest from housework. starting from morning till night, do all the work she does, in addition to your office work. she might refuse it at first, and just about try to prevent it due to your supposed 'lack of knowledge or cannot do it as well as she does'

let those comments pass, and insist that this is a challenge from an old pissfart like me that men can do things just as well as woman, and you are out to prove it.

it will be a great learning experience for you. at the end of the week, you will be a new man, and believe me, your wife will bestow on you extra endearments, which would be icing on the cake.

this is a challenge to all the other youngsters here... switch roles for a week and experience the joys of wifehood.


..and be kind enough to provide feedback..

good luck!!
 
dosn't matter raghy.

i think as long as we are mobile enough to do things on ourselves, we should not issue orders for other folks. coffe ordering at the sight of strangers, to me, is a familiar habit of tambram men.

would it not be a wonderful change, if we move our arses, shift to the kitchen and started boiling the water. then if the sahadharmini offers to make that decoction, we can avail of that.

but to order? that is crass and behavour unbecoming of a gentleman tambram (if such a person could ever exist)... :)

Sri.Kunjuppu sir,

Greetings. 'ordering' can be two way street too. My wife used to ask me quite often 'வேலைக்கு போயிட்டு வர்றேன் ...எதாவது கவனிப்பு இருக்கா?'..I would prepare fresh decoction while she gets refreshed and give her a fresh cup of steaming coffee; somany times she would go to work leaving the menu for me to cook....

In our case, we 'order' each other only for us. We don't do such things for any visitor. She loves to to drink a cofffee while I give her a foot massage (I am good in giving massages. There is but just one receipent though)....How many of you guys can even imagine such a scenario?


Cheers!
 
Sri.Kunjuppu sir,

Greetings. 'ordering' can be two way street too. My wife used to ask me quite often 'வேலைக்கு போயிட்டு வர்றேன் ...எதாவது கவனிப்பு இருக்கா?'..I would prepare fresh decoction while she gets refreshed and give her a fresh cup of steaming coffee; somany times she would go to work leaving the menu for me to cook....

In our case, we 'order' each other only for us. We don't do such things for any visitor. She loves to to drink a cofffee while I give her a foot massage (I am good in giving massages. There is but just one receipent though)....How many of you guys can even imagine such a scenario?


Cheers!

ok with me if we have to go on this route :)

usually when visitors come, i am the host taking care of whatever drinks that may be imbibed.

my wife broke her wrists and there are several normal inconveniences or cosmetry she is unable to do. i have developed a knack for those, and have developed a fair exercise not only forming pallus but further along the road, which due to discretion, i will leave it to the reader's imagination.

i agree that i am no expert in foot massage, but generally do an ok job per her for overall rubs and compressions. i think all men should pamper their wives. a return smile as a rewards is worth more than all the gems in the world.

this is a deliberately developed behaviour. no age is too late to begin. and should end only with infirmity or death. :)
 
Regarding eating on auspicious day.Every one knows that bearing hungry is easier than controling natures call. So the system defines one to be with empty stomach during performance of rituals. In those days one has to go far away from home to answer call of nature.As one goes away He may have to touch untouchables(men and material).He has to take bath for that.Taking bath several times by a male is easier than for females as bathing was generally in water courses like rivers ,tanks,channels or even in wells without defined enclosures.drying dhoty is shorter than drying a 9yard saree.Further long absence may jeopardice cooking process.This was the real reason behind restrictions on important days. Proximity to cooked meals may tempt over eating Better health practices demand restrictions on eating,"SASTRAYA CHA SUKAYA CHA" Meaning sastras are for welfare living.( we can see teenage girls with 100 to 120 kg around us nowadays) Now as all personal conveniances are within the four dwelling walls the protestents may reconsider their conveniences.

Regarding male chuvanism.Think of the days when there were no defined jobs or woking condition .An able male member has to earn money and material for the entire family . He has to face many ordial and unexpected situations and also to husband the entire family in odd situations like flood famine etc..So he was given high importance and hospitality in the family setup.But the females were to remain home as home managers and to buffer the joy and temper of the male. This was a fine set up to suit the olden days. The ladies of the present day feel that system may not suit present day setup.So every one is free to adjust it to their convenience without finding fault with our ancestors.
Let us respect our ancestors and try to live as we wish
With regards.
 
Thank you Shri Sangom Sir.

The same holds good for what I wrote earlier in r/o vratams and rituals, but from my few years here in TVM, I think (but cannot be sure) that the middle class also are not so fastidious about many aspects of these.

My FIL who was heading AGs office in trivandrum in late 80s mentions about this quite often - His observation had been the families in TVM had been far ahead than their Tanjore Counterparts.
 
Sri.Kunjuppu sir,

i agree that i am no expert in foot massage, but generally do an ok job per her for overall rubs and compressions.
Speaking about 'foot massage'...once I was working in the Emergency Department, one Indian lady was presented with reduced blood circulation to her feet. She was diabetic. While I was busy checking her observations (like BP, pulse, temperature etc.. I was quite busy, I was not looking at these people), I casually mentined to her husband that he should be giving his wife daily foot massage for 15 minutes, each foot....when I looked up, the husband's face was pale and he was quite taken aback; his wife was looking at me as if I came from a different planet....the doctor (An Indian lady) was listening to me with a pleasant grin on her face...

My wife once developed very sore feet. To improve circulation, I used to apply cream and massage her feet each for 15 minutes. (we were very young too. I leave the members to imagine my payback :party:. At one time she got torn muscle in her shoulder...that left reduced arm movements. When it was getting bad, I lost faith in the physio therapists and I started massaging. I knew where to massage...within 6 months she was spinning her arms like a wind mill.

Sri. Kunjuppu is right...members should wear the 'wife' hat now and again. The incentives are really good, from my experiences. (but we fight everyday anyways :fencing:.

Cheers!
 
Shri Wrongan

Appreciate your practical analysis sir.

But the point is the practical freedom to adjust is lesser for tam brahm woman than a man - all in the name of preserving Brahmin culture and tradition and this is based on my experience and those of my relatives sir.

It is not a question of respecting our ancestors (both male and female) - Who am I to say that our ancestral woman did not like the then practice of their male counterparts .I do not have evidence either way.

Of course we have seen the trauma of those widowed even at the age of 14 (familiar sight of athai pattis in every house holds till 80s)- We have never seen mama thathas who remained as a widower.It just strengthens my opinion that our ancestors applied wisdom only from the male point of view.

Thanks
Revathi
 
...
if it were so important, why cannot the father stay at home for certain number of years to rear the children? after all, now a days women are capable of earning as much or more than their husband? why should we feel that it is the woman's sole prerogative to take care of the children?
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Rearing infants, say during the first 3 or 4 years of their life by the mother is a better alternative, in my opinion, though the infant is weaned in one or one and a half years now. This will give them mother's affection at the appropriate period. Above the age of 3 or 4 years also, it is more advisable for girls to be looked after by their mother rather than by their father, for very many reasons. While the basic outwardly requirements can be looked after by the father, a girl brought up by her mother will have a better emotional support, I feel. Hence, unless the mother earns very much more than the father and one income will suffice for the family, or if the mother can earn being at home, it will be a better course. I know a case - this may be a very rare exception - of a boy, a latchkey kid - has grown up with so much animosity to his mother that now he will murder his mother if they are left alone. This boy has attempted it once or twice and also attempted suicide on a few occasions. Hence it is all a very unpredictable situation and so there is a price to pay for any change from the conventional family set up of mother looking after the children and the father earning for the family. I find more and more of youngsters are realizing this and desiring that they will chose a non-working girl for marriage.

I will also suggest that you do not base your world view on the isolated instances of your cousins.
 
dear sravana,

thank you for your kind note esp enjoying my posts.

delighting my own woman is something dear to me.

why don't you for just one week, give your wife a rest from housework. starting from morning till night, do all the work she does, in addition to your office work. she might refuse it at first, and just about try to prevent it due to your supposed 'lack of knowledge or cannot do it as well as she does'

let those comments pass, and insist that this is a challenge from an old pissfart like me that men can do things just as well as woman, and you are out to prove it.

it will be a great learning experience for you. at the end of the week, you will be a new man, and believe me, your wife will bestow on you extra endearments, which would be icing on the cake.

this is a challenge to all the other youngsters here... switch roles for a week and experience the joys of wifehood.


..and be kind enough to provide feedback..

good luck!!
Shri Kunjuppu,

I think your life has fortunately been one of clear black and white demarcations. That is why you suggest this "one week test" I presume. When we were living in kanpur, Gauhati, etc., when my wife used to be unwell, we - myself and my small children - used to manage, because we did not have relatives and were new to those places. Of course in Guahati, my second son was an infant and so my wife could not avoid some minimum work. It is occasions like these which should prove the husband's concern for the spouse, and not a test for test's sake, I believe. And it is the memories of all those experiences - some happy some sad - which strengthens the bonds between husband and wife, not some mechanical duty-roster like Sunday cooking by husband etc., IMHO.
 
Thanks Shri Kunjuppu ji. I have indeed been practsing it and just as you have rightly predicted benefitted by extra endearments. As Shri.Sangom also rightly adds that it is more than just a one week thing
 
Dear Mr Sangom

It is occasions like these which should prove the husband's concern for the spouse

Do you mean that the husband should only show his concern for his wife (which includes cooking) on occassions where she is unwell and should be best left alone when she is well and able to cook? If it is so, I disagree. I really wish our men to cook regularly in the house even if the wife is a full time home maker and think it is mandatory if she is working. He can even start with being the one to prepare tea/coffee in the morning! The simple act of my husband making me/us hot tea every morning brings great happiness to me and makes me love him more.

I really wish men to try it and see the results for themselves than just pulling their weight when their wife is unwell.

Kind regards
Valli
 
Dear Revathi

"What is the use of getting married if we still have to eat in office canteen/Hotel food.We are after all health conscious" .The net result is that the m ost of the middle class women do cook at home except on Sundays.

This is the sad reality of the mentality of most men (particularly more so in India)! They see their wife as their cooking maid, laundry person and their exclusive sex worker (in varying degrees) and not as what should be the truth - their equal half. If these men are so health conscious why can't they contribute in the kitchen equally?

When women work full time, ride two-wheeler/drive car and do the banking, grocery shopping, dropping kids/picking them up (to school and to extracurricular activities), IMHO it is high time men started sharing the house work equally.

Cheers!
 
On a lighter note :) men who don't know to cook can start with giving foot massage to their wife (like Mr Raghy) ;) and proceed to give overall rubs and compressions:high5: (like Mr Kunjuppu) or start with overall rubs and compressions and end with foot massage depending on their convenience. (These are small concessions while they attend a crash course on cooking).

Cheers!
 
Tambrams, IMHO, carried the orthodoxy to extreme, and ended up being DOGmatic. In contrast, punjbrams were never so rigid and narrow minded. Times have changed for punj and tam brams. While we constantly readjusted to the social and economic conditions, tambrams, IMHO, did not. Consequently, in Punjab, Haryana, HP, UK, Jammu region they are still a respectable community. For all that, these brahmins have lost their brahmanhood. They have not turned atheists, in fact their has never been an anti brahmin movement like in TN.

I am dismayed that some devis here feel ill treated in their marital homes. From Revathi's language, it seems that all young tambram women are being oppressed to death. I don't want to project that Punjab has no crimes against women. Domestic violence is there too.

That was background. In my parivar and those of my friends and relations, I have not seen any woman compelled to observe any ritual fasts. It is volantory. Yes, during navratris, many women fast, but then so do many men. In this period, sales of liquor and non veg items falls sharply. When I was 20 years younger, I too fasted, but now medical conditions rule it out.

Formal education and literacy are different. My g'g'mother never went to a school, but could read Ramayana [as I heard].

Women employment has not liberated them. It has rather shackled them more. Yet it is a need of the hour. My married son lives with us. Bahurani too is employed. My g'daughter goes to cretche, and me and my wife collect her in the evening. Btw, my wife is still in govt. service, while I have retired. What do Amit & Puja get out of it? Freedom from worry about the child. Child gets so much physical and emotional security that she "hides" her treasures in my pocket. She knows that Dada will give her anything. BUT, she also knows that Dada CAN be stern!!!
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Rearing infants, say during the first 3 or 4 years of their life by the mother is a better alternative, in my opinion, though the infant is weaned in one or one and a half years now. This will give them mother's affection at the appropriate period. Above the age of 3 or 4 years also, it is more advisable for girls to be looked after by their mother rather than by their father, for very many reasons. While the basic outwardly requirements can be looked after by the father, a girl brought up by her mother will have a better emotional support, I feel. Hence, unless the mother earns very much more than the father and one income will suffice for the family, or if the mother can earn being at home, it will be a better course. I know a case - this may be a very rare exception - of a boy, a latchkey kid - has grown up with so much animosity to his mother that now he will murder his mother if they are left alone. This boy has attempted it once or twice and also attempted suicide on a few occasions. Hence it is all a very unpredictable situation and so there is a price to pay for any change from the conventional family set up of mother looking after the children and the father earning for the family. I find more and more of youngsters are realizing this and desiring that they will chose a non-working girl for marriage.

Well said Sri Sangom ji.......
 
Sri rcscwc said.

"Women employment has not liberated them. It has rather shackled them more. Yet it is a need of the hour. My married son lives with us. Bahurani too is employed. My g'daughter goes to cretche, and me and my wife collect her in the evening. Btw, my wife is still in govt. service, while I have retired. What do Amit & Puja get out of it? Freedom from worry about the child. Child gets so much physical and emotional security that she "hides" her treasures in my pocket. She knows that Dada will give her anything. BUT, she also knows that Dada CAN be stern!!!"


Brilliantly said. I wish both youngsters and elders of tamil brahmin families learn a lot from their North Indian counter parts. Nobody can take care of grand children better than their grand parents. Any amount of money spent on some hired people will not substitute grand parents commitment to the child. At the same time, grand parents should be stern when it comes to control. Other wise mother of the child may feel that grand parents are spoiling her child.

Please keep it up

All the best
 
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Rearing infants, say during the first 3 or 4 years of their life by the mother is a better alternative, in my opinion, though the infant is weaned in one or one and a half years now. This will give them mother's affection at the appropriate period. Above the age of 3 or 4 years also, it is more advisable for girls to be looked after by their mother rather than by their father, for very many reasons. While the basic outwardly requirements can be looked after by the father, a girl brought up by her mother will have a better emotional support, I feel. Hence, unless the mother earns very much more than the father and one income will suffice for the family, or if the mother can earn being at home, it will be a better course. I know a case - this may be a very rare exception - of a boy, a latchkey kid - has grown up with so much animosity to his mother that now he will murder his mother if they are left alone. This boy has attempted it once or twice and also attempted suicide on a few occasions. Hence it is all a very unpredictable situation and so there is a price to pay for any change from the conventional family set up of mother looking after the children and the father earning for the family. I find more and more of youngsters are realizing this and desiring that they will chose a non-working girl for marriage.

I will also suggest that you do not base your world view on the isolated instances of your cousins.

Dear sangom,

Yours is an impeccable post as usual, with logic and I cannot find any holes there. thank you. when it comes to working motherhood, one can bring up any references to prove a pov. i am afraid that in most of these arguements the needs of the mother and her aspirations gets lost.

It took me quite a while to come up with a response, to explain where I am coming from. As with anything in this life, everything is a matter of perspectives. Maybe I can start with two incidents I witnessed and proceed from there.

A few months ago, I was waiting at Hong Kong airport enroute Chennai. There was also a young tambram couple in the open waiting area with an 18 month girl toddler, very active and restless after a long trans pacific flight.

The mother was busy using the laptop throughout the 4 hours I was there, and I gathered, she was on production support, and ‘fire fighting’ issues. Wifi technology has ensured that we get connected to work through our laptops anywhere in the world.

Throughout this episode, the young father entertained the baby, played with her, fed her, changed her nappies in the men’s washroom, changed her clothes, and as time departure time approached, slowly rocked the baby to bed. All along, the mother was busy and under stress, and every occasionally she used to glance at the father/daughter, a brief smile would come on her lips, only to disappear she went turned back to her work.

To me this father is a lucky guy. Years later, he would cherish these so called mummy roles – and it was a delight for old fogies like me to watch this rather publicly played family drama. I think the baby is even more lucky – she has not one, but two people to nourish and cherish her.

Twenty seven years ago in Toronto, there was another tambram couple, who had a baby son. For circumstances too complex to be explained, I only wish to say, that the mother had to go back to work barely 3 weeks after the baby was born. Fortunately this was shift work and basically the baby was home all the time.

The father took upon the sole care of baby as a challenge, not that HE would do best of his effort for the baby, but do sufficient and necessary, so that the mother at work will have the satisfaction of a baby well taken care and he also ensured, that at no time, she would ever feel guilty about her decision to return to work so soon. the father worked hard to ensure a level of comfort in his wife, which they would often talk about many times later in life.

Even now the mother cries when she remembers the thought of leaving the baby and going to work after 3 weeks, but always comes the statement, ‘my husband was with me and the way he took care of our son, I had the consolation that I could not have done any better’. Perhaps she has inward feeling of guilt, I don’t know, but at no time, has she ever been exposed to someone else telling her what her ‘duties and priorities’ re the child was.

The important thing is that parenthood is a partnership, and in many nuclear families today, the grandparents are unable to be present all the time. We have to remember that the woman also has goals and aspirations in life, and the last thing a society needs to do is to bring the notion of what must be the duties of motherhood. Maybe some people should never be mothers but I beg to disagree that children of working parents do not get the necessary mental nourishment as a rule.

i am happy to say that i do not know of any stay at home mothers anymore in the current generation, either in the west or india. all the girls are part of the work force. when these have babies, in some instances the parents are able to help. in others, both india and the west, the parents may be unavailable for many reasons.

i see a new breed of fathers, who have no hesitations in taking over all aspects of baby care (except obviously breast feeding). ofcourse, i am talking of educated middle class professionals, as these are the only ones i know.

there were always problem children in any generation, even when all the mothers stayed at home. i am very skeptical that there are increased numbers of such, due to working mothers. there might be studies to prove that latchkey kids turn problematical. there are probably as many studies proving otherwise.

in the ultimate, today's young parents, unable or unwilling for the mother to stay at home to rear babies. grand parents, if they are close by and living together is a blessing, but in many instances this option is just not there.

Grand parents need not generally be a panacea to the task of child bearing and rearing. the young mother has a possessive trait when it comes to the first child, and even grand parents might find walking on egg shells when dealing with the baby. if it works for one, it is good. i am talking of others where there is no alternatives...

Every family is different and I feel very reluctant to go along with blanket ‘one size for all’ rules. We see now responsible youngters in their 20s and 30s whose both parents are working. These people marry and both work while continuing to have children.

Society needs to find more ways to ease the childbearing tasks and educate fathers about good parenting. And not berate young mothers to stay at home or else make them feel guilty re insufficient motherhood. Today’s working mother carries enough burden and let us attempt to understand her aspirations and accommodate it and not throw blamefor child neglect. this simply is not true.

Thank you.

Btw, the father in the second story is yours truly
 
Shri Kunjuppu,

I think your life has fortunately been one of clear black and white demarcations. That is why you suggest this "one week test" I presume. When we were living in kanpur, Gauhati, etc., when my wife used to be unwell, we - myself and my small children - used to manage, because we did not have relatives and were new to those places. Of course in Guahati, my second son was an infant and so my wife could not avoid some minimum work. It is occasions like these which should prove the husband's concern for the spouse, and not a test for test's sake, I believe. And it is the memories of all those experiences - some happy some sad - which strengthens the bonds between husband and wife, not some mechanical duty-roster like Sunday cooking by husband etc., IMHO.

dear sangom,

if you go through the gists of any of my posts, you would find me talk more of the grey areas. I have never been able to classify anything as black or white, and not sure where you get that message. If at all anything, I believe life is a set of compromises.

We can never have all that we want. We need to prioritize and constantly rearrange our wish lists. This is one reason that I always questions dogmas, which forthrightly rule by a series of dictats and ‘must do’s.

to be the only ‘must do’ in life is to live on one’s terms in harmony with the environment. I try to avoid conflicts because we eventually become victims of our own conflicts. I am also one who cannot bear to see anything in a limbo ie solutionless.. which is why, absurd as some of them may seem, my posts always stress on finding way out of tight situations, and not moan or whine over imagined or real losses.

I also have a sentimental side – I side lovers, I side on reforms, I side on equality before God, I side anti casteism and above all I side for all individuals to form and make their own lives.

Black and white? Moi? I doubt it.


PS.. my ‘one week’ suggestion was for folks, who had everything going hunky dory for them and had no reason to doubt the status quo. This was not for the sensitive sensible types of husbands like you and me. :)
 
Dear Mr Sangom

Do you mean that the husband should only show his concern for his wife (which includes cooking) on occassions where she is unwell and should be best left alone when she is well and able to cook? If it is so, I disagree. I really wish our men to cook regularly in the house even if the wife is a full time home maker and think it is mandatory if she is working. He can even start with being the one to prepare tea/coffee in the morning! The simple act of my husband making me/us hot tea every morning brings great happiness to me and makes me love him more.

I really wish men to try it and see the results for themselves than just pulling their weight when their wife is unwell.

Kind regards
Valli
Smt. Valli,

My comments were in the context of Shri Kunjuppu suggesting one week's test to someone so that he will be able to ingratiate himself with his wife. I said "It is occasions like these which should prove the husband's concern for the spouse "; I did not say that "It is only occasions like these which should prove the husband's concern for the spouse". You have lifted one sentence out of context and are interpreting it just to score a point, I feel.

How a couple should run their household is something best left to themselves, I believe, as long as both of them are satisfied with each other. There can be no "universal manual for a good husband" or, for that matter, a good wife.

If your posts emanate out of your experience in a milieu in which the husbands do not know even preparing tea, let alone cooking, I may tell you that many brahmins among us (right from my grandfather's time) knew cooking and some of them were as good as professional cooks, if need arose. But they did not have their wives telling them to share each and every household work; they gave help when it was desired. They did not have to specially ingratiate themselves with their wives by preparing morning tea/coffee. (In fact there was no tea/coffee in a brahmin's life some 100 years ago. That is what my grandmother used to tell; this habit came, in her house years after her marriage.)

As for myself I can manage my home cooking eatably well. But when I do the cooking and what I prepare, cannot be as per your prescription, (morning coffee/tea, etc.) but my wife's.
 
This thread was started by Reva to highlight, as I understand, the unfair way in which our society has dealt with woman in the past, and the lingering after effects even now.

All my posts here have been in this context, which incidentally is also in sync with my own views, based on my life experiences and what I feel an empathy for the underdog.

An emotional topic is whether the children get short changed as a result of the woman joining the work force and as a result of aspiring to be something more than a mother and homekeeper.

One of the biggest regrets of my mother was that she could not go out and work. Dad felt that it would be below his dignity as a reflection that he is unable to support a wife and children on his own income. That put a stop to mom’s ambitions. But those were different times. Still I cannot but help remembering her forlorn desire which was never fulfilled and which she accepted as her fate.

Today’s times have changed. I do not think it is even realistic to expect an average young lady of today to stay at home after marriage. Personally I think this is an exception or minority, but then the public here can correct me.

Almost unanimously we all agreed that the traditions and rules were slanted against the women and to the benefit of the men. Now, thanks to changing times, women are getting a better deal, but a better deal means nothing if we constantly harp on ‘we are better than yesterday’ and do nothing more. We still, I think, have ways to go.

The very fact that many of us conveniently segregate certain roles to women by way of birth, in itself, to me is a reflection of attitudes which given a chance would willingly slide back to status quo. These women are our daughters and sisters and we definitely wish for them a better world at home than our mothers. If anybody here feels that the world of our mothers were fine and dandy, I would recommend they read no more.

Further, the rest of this post is for those of us, who believe that men can go through conscientious behaviour change to make ourselves a true equal partner to our spouses. This is the right thing to do, and this is what we owe our womenfolk.

It will be good, if starting from marriage, where I think, it is best that the youngsters of today put their foot down to the girls’ side paying the bulk of the expenses to child rearing where the men learn the practices of parenthood, that there is no entitlement due to the male, just because we are born one. We did not chose our genders, did we?

Going back to work after mother hood is a heart wrenching time for any mother. The last thing they need is advice or suggestions that would make them feel guilty or inadequacy of motherhood. I believe that 40 years later, and millions of latch key kids in this world, including mine, the youth of today is better informed thanks to technology, and able to handle issues as good as any of the previous generation. If at all anything, these kids develop a sense of maturity and responsibility much earlier than those who moms stayed at home.

I do not think one system is better or worse. It is what we make of it. We can mush up any situations or we can make it work and make it work excellently. I think Reva would like input as to how we can make things better for the working woman or women of our community in general, taking into account the realities of today.

Each one’s family is different. Many have grandparents living happily with their children. All the more glory to them. we hear from the grandfathers. Also we hear from female members about the restrictions due to the older folks’ presence. Have the older folks given thought to this? have they put themselves in the place of their dils?

Just like intercaste marriages or nuclear families, career ambitious tambram women are here to stay.

It may be good to focus on the working tambram woman and the resultant adjustments that the husbands need to make from the old mindset, and come up with suggestions of support for this phenomenon. it would also be good to remember, that today's husbands are doing more than their fathers, is not a good enough answer. we need to do more, till the average woman feels that household labour is divided fairly between the spouses.

Maybe I am being too optimistic?
 
Dear sangom,

Yours is an impeccable post as usual, with logic and I cannot find any holes there. thank you.
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Thank you.

i am afraid that in most of these arguements the needs of the mother and her aspirations gets lost.
I feel you have overlooked my statement that the mother be with the child for at least 3 or 4 years. Not that she should not go to work at all. Secondly, the remarks about girl child also was only a salutary suggestion, not mandatory.

Twenty seven years ago in Toronto, there was another tambram couple, who had a baby son. For circumstances too complex to be explained, I only wish to say, that the mother had to go back to work barely 3 weeks after the baby was born. Fortunately this was shift work and basically the baby was home all the time.

The father took upon the sole care of baby as a challenge, not that HE would do best of his effort for the baby, but do sufficient and necessary, so that the mother at work will have the satisfaction of a baby well taken care and he also ensured, that at no time, she would ever feel guilty about her decision to return to work so soon. the father worked hard to ensure a level of comfort in his wife, which they would often talk about many times later in life.

Even now the mother cries when she remembers the thought of leaving the baby and going to work after 3 weeks, but always comes the statement, ‘my husband was with me and the way he took care of our son, I had the consolation that I could not have done any better’. Perhaps she has inward feeling of guilt, I don’t know, but at no time, has she ever been exposed to someone else telling her what her ‘duties and priorities’ re the child was.
I could guess whose experience it was, to be recounted in such precise details!

The important thing is that parenthood is a partnership...
I think you are talking of the husband-wife partnership. But the moment a child is born to them the partnership becomes a trust, at least in the Indian conditions; a trust for the welfare of the child. Perhaps it is better to adopt the notion of the partnership's continuance so that the parents will have no regrets, at a future date, of having sacrificed anything of their comforts, pleasures, or enjoyments for the sake of the child.

i am happy to say that i do not know of any stay at home mothers anymore in the current generation, either in the west or india. all the girls are part of the work force. when these have babies, in some instances the parents are able to help. in others, both india and the west, the parents may be unavailable for many reasons.

i see a new breed of fathers, who have no hesitations in taking over all aspects of baby care (except obviously breast feeding). ofcourse, i am talking of educated middle class professionals, as these are the only ones i know.
I am told by my son - who is in London - that many of his Indian friends (some are his colleagues, or ex-colleagues, some purely friends) generally have full-time home maker mothers. In my assessment they are all middle class only. My daughter-in-law who was working till marriage, was not interested in working after marriage. We learn from her (they are a well-to-do family of brahmins native to Indore) that girls among her community will work till their marriage but still feel that after marriage, and especially after the birth of a child, it is better to be a home maker unless circumstances force them to take up work (like loss of job of the husband and not being able to get a new one, incapacitation/death of husband or some great financial crisis, etc.). Hence there seems to be a section of opinion like that also.

Every family is different and I feel very reluctant to go along with blanket ‘one size for all’ rules. We see now responsible youngters in their 20s and 30s whose both parents are working. These people marry and both work while continuing to have children.
Even while saying so, are you not suggesting a "one rule for all", viz., the aspiration of the mother is to be supreme?

Society needs to find more ways to ease the childbearing tasks and educate fathers about good parenting. And not berate young mothers to stay at home or else make them feel guilty re insufficient motherhood. Today’s working mother carries enough burden and let us attempt to understand her aspirations and accommodate it and not throw blamefor child neglect. this simply is not true.
Shri Kunjuppu, Yours seems to be a one-track mind which does not like to believe that the world outside is so vast and varied that there can be people with widely varying belief systems different from yours. In this instance you are dead sure that it will be berating young mothers if they stay at home, etc. There are many young girls, may or may not be from among tambrams, but out there in the wide world, who do not feel they are "berated" if they stay at home, even though they are qualified enough to jolly well go, work and earn some good amount of Pounds Sterling. Atleast one among those friends of my son is a tamilian girl, if my info. is right.

And the way you feel nervous about making young mothers "feel guilty re insufficient motherhood", looks to me that you also concede to an element of truth in what I wrote.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top