Musings/Confusions of a TamBram Woman seeking answers – Part 1

[pannvalan]

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அம்மா ரேவதி,

'பண்வளன் ' என்னும் என் பெயரைப் 'பன்னிவலன்' ஆக மாற்றி விட் டீர்களே ? இது நியாயமா?

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri pannvalanji,

I really apologize, it is a typo. generally I copy and paste the handle names - In this case I have erred due to hastiness

Ennudaya mannippai Thayavu Seidhu EttruKollungal!

(I want to type in tamil - I need to check how to do that)

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Expecting questions like the one you asked, I used the word 'trial balance'. It is not a perfect balance sheet where assets total and liabilities will tally.
In trial balance, there is usually a difference which will be reconciled only at a later stage.

I request you to view the travails of Indian working women through Indian prism, not through prism made in USA/UK.

'அக்கரைக்கு இக்கரை பச்சை' என்பது போல, people always envy the other side.Regarding children missing their working mothers during day time, there have been thousands of studies done by sociologists, psychologists and psychiatrists and others, which have almost given identical verdict:

'Lack of emotional bonding or deprivation of motherly love' in one's younger age makes that person pervert, rebel and even an anti-social.With regard to other counter points of yours, I shall reply soon.

 

[pannvalan]

அன்புள்ள ரேவதி அவர்களுக்கு,

வருந்தத் தேவை இல்லை. உங்களைப் போல நானும் இப்போது தான் (கூகுள் புண்ணியத்தில்) தமிழிலே டைப் அடிக்கக்
கற்றுக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன்.

இதற்கு முன்பு நான் 'சி-டாட்' உருவாக்கிய ileap என்னும் மென்பொருளைத் தான் பயன்படுத்தி வந்தேன். ஆனால், அது நமது tamil brahmins 'சைட்' டுக்கு ஒத்து வரவில்லை.

 

[sangom]

அன்புள்ள ரேவதி அவர்களுக்கு,

வருந்தத் தேவை இல்லை. உங்களைப் போல நானும் இப்போது தான் (கூகுள் புண்ணியத்தில்) தமிழிலே டைப் அடிக்கக்
கற்றுக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன்.

இதற்கு முன்பு நான் 'சி-டாட்' உருவாக்கிய ileap என்னும் மென்பொருளைத் தான் பயன்படுத்தி வந்தேன். ஆனால், அது நமது tamil brahmins 'சைட்' டுக்கு ஒத்து வரவில்லை.

Shri Pannvalan, Smt. Revathi,

I will recommend a text editor called barahapad. It is quite useful and easier than google transliteration. We can type 10 Indian languages plus Sanskrit and English with that. Best of all, it is FREE ! Please try. It has very clear help file as well.

 

[sravna]

Dear Smt. Revathi,

I do not think the those who created those practices were not thoughtful in creating them. My earlier reply has relevance to your questions.

The comforts you say that a man enjoys only emphasises his physical aspect as it requires much greater strength to abstain from such comforts which a woman is supposed not to enjoy.It also imperceptibly strengthens her inner self compared to the man who does not have that opportunity.

Given the choices of building my confidence or building my wealth, I would on any day chose the former.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Sangom,

Thanks for your suggestion. I shall try barahapad and get back to you.

 

[rcscwc]

• Women are not supposed to eat during Vrathas, but is perfectly alright and in fact mandatory for men folk to have tiffan before yearly Avani Avittam. It seems men are not supposed to be hungry during Poonal changing function(that’s what my MIL says) . I know one tamil Brahmin lady who had come to visit in-laws had to catch a train at 9 PM on Karadayan Nonbu and that year karadayan Nonbu was at night 8 PM. The whole day she was not allowed to eat and she had to pack,make Karadai,cook for husband and inlaws , attend to chores and then had to do Nonbu and rushed for the train. She fell ill for two days! Whereas the men of the family ate three times a day happily and was commanding for their coffee and other sevices and the MIL was insisting that she should not eat for the sake of welfare and long life of the husband. I find it difficult to believe and follow such practices.Also I do not find any festival in which a man prays for the welfare of the woman!

In fact, MHO, it is fashionable to question every thing that is Hinduism. Yes. In fact many people are just mortified and shamed that they are Hindus.

Fast as for as I know, is volantary and not compulsory. During fasts, even men do not eat. In fact, starting from pregnancy till the baby is weaned from the breast feed, a woman MUST not fast.

None, man or woman, need to fast during illness or long travels.

• When a wife’s relatives (Siblings, Parents etc) die, the woman is allowed to grieve for only 3 days where as even a far off Dayathi’s death on husband’s side some times is grieved for the whole year. In one of the incidents I know , in my relatives circle, for a woman , Diwali came after 6 days after one of her parent’s death. She was forced to make sweets, take ganga Snan and celebrate the festival on the reason that as per sastras, a woman’s theetu will be over in 3 days and if she does not celebrate, it is not good for husband’s family. I felt so bad on the insensitiveness shown. The love and attachment towards one’s parents is same for a man and a woman.

Like it or not. After marriage the primary affliation of a woman shifts after marriage. At lrast in every patriarchy culture. Again, like it or not, patriarchy is the dominant tradition. It has replaced the matriarchy even in S. India. A woman cannot mourn for weeks, without neglecting her husbands and children.

Among Khatris, the mourning is only for three days. On fourth Uthala. On fifth, back to business.

If true, tambrams are not moving with time. Time will leave them behind, unless they redefine themselves. Take a leaf from punjbrams.

I might sound insensitive, but realities should not be ignored.

 

[rcscwc]

அன்புள்ள ரேவதி அவர்களுக்கு,

வருந்தத் தேவை இல்லை. உங்களைப் போல நானும் இப்போது தான் (கூகுள் புண்ணியத்தில்) தமிழிலே டைப் அடிக்கக்
கற்றுக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன்.

இதற்கு முன்பு நான் 'சி-டாட்' உருவாக்கிய ileap என்னும் மென்பொருளைத் தான் பயன்படுத்தி வந்தேன். ஆனால், அது நமது tamil brahmins 'சைட்' டுக்கு ஒத்து வரவில்லை.

What did you say?

Once or twice I have used Devanagri, but not more than a word, that too with roman transliteration, and was understood to 100"%".
Try that.

Pravin, why does your editor convert percent sign into gibberish?

 

[sangom]

i hope you do agree that the additional role of working woman, is a significant one, which takes the prime daytime. previous generations, including my mothers', mom used to rest in the afternoons while taking care of the rest of the housework. the modern woman, spends the whole day in the office, and have to crunch the rest of the time doing all the things that the prevous generation did over the whole day. i think it was this point that i missed.

the modern woman cannot afford to come home after a hard day's work and bring home the frustrations and seek solace. her motherhood day is just starting when the typical husband comes home for R&R. simply her sense of duty and love of children, will not let her sit back and order in food. she will cook, care for, bathe the children, help their homework, do the laundry and all of those little things that make a house a home. ...

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

I am not saying that there is no household at all, of the type you describe, either among tambrams or others, in India. But in a good number of households where both the husband and the wife work, the situation today is very different. I am personally aware of these facts.

In the evening the children, latchkey kids, come home, have some food kept ready in the fridge and go to tutions, play, etc. The woman buys some foil-packed items from the best hotel/s. A woman comes at about 7 or 8 P.M. and makes chapatis or puris and rice as indicated by the housewife on the previous day and keeps those ready in a casserole on the dining table and goes; if the woman comes early they meet, otherwise the talk is thru' mobile. The work of ironing or pressing the clothes is now in almost all cases done by itinerant "istiri wallas". The clothes can be given to the security man when the couple leave for work; alternatively, the "ironing-man" will come and take the clothes in the evening when the kids are at home. Clothes for daily washing are loaded into the washing machine in the morning. If there is a dependable servant he/she will have a set of door keys and will spread these for drying; otherwise, this is done at night after the couple return from work. It is not the case that men simply come for R&R and laze around the house.

This is what I would say the ground reality in many homes. Compared to this the earlier generation of women have had very strenuous daily routine without any of the conveniences like gas ovens, mixies, grinders, refrigerators, washing-cum-drying machines, vacuum cleaners, micro-wave ovens and so on. If they had one or two hours' rest in the afternoon, I think today's working woman also has that much rest during working hours.

In this context I have personally heard a neighbour (lady) - a colleague of mine - telling my full-time home maker wife, that for her the holidays are the most difficult and boring because of two reasons: 1) there will be some work or the other in the house to be done during holidays/leave days, and 2) the "rest and recreation" which she got in the office is lost on those days. There are many women like her who simply "love" to go to work, and abhor the monotony of the home, even in a place like Mumbai which has the most arduous suburban train journeys.

Then we have the new generation IT couples, some of them in the live-in relationship. Here, I am told, they need to have only a "biscuit kitchen" as one witty lady put it; the kitchen will have only biscuits, bread-jam, ready-made items, fruit juices and one need to light the gas oven for tea/coffee only. The rest is all procured from take-aways, parcels from hotels, dining/eating out etc. Cooking in the traditional sense is so alien to such households that one old tambram woman jocularly called it பொட்டலம் பிரிக்கும் கிச்சன்!

Similarly in many DI (double income) middle-class homes, the husband shares all the work. In the upper class, there will be at least one servant to do all the work of cleaning the house and other chores.

Latchkey children have every chance of going astray. I personally know of one case. In a colony of the employees of our institution, many houses were DI. Everything was supposed to be going hunky-dory till my colleague's son (4 or 5 years old) one night started narrating to his father how he saw a cinema in another house in which one uncle and aunty had no clothes etc.; the child was in truth describing a porno video in his own manner! Enquiries brought to light that there were two groups of children in the colony - one addicted to drugs and the other fresh recruits who were being lured by means of porno films. Many latchkey (and a few who were not) children of all ages had taken a liking to the porno films and were regular viewers, but the elders did not get even a trace of it from those kids till that small boy blurted out!

The supplier of the videos was traced and warned with the help of the police. Some mothers, including my colleague's wife, resigned their jobs soon after this incident.

 

[ganeshrev]

In fact, MHO, it is fashionable to question every thing that is Hinduism. Yes. In fact many people are just mortified and shamed that they are Hindus.

Sir, if the practices /traditions are strictly Hinduism practice, then why other brahmins (including other sects/other languages) are not following ? IMHO, that means there are the intermediate practices brought to serve the purpose of comfortable life of men and are wrapped/packaged under Hinduism.no sir, I do not consider it as fashionable to question Hindusim - it is a Tamil Brahmin Prcatice I am asking clarification about.If asking question itself is questionable and considered fashionable, I do not think many great works/inventions would have followed

Fast as for as I know, is volantary and not compulsory.

Sir, you have not been a woman , definitely not a Tamil Brahmin one .The emotional stress and compulsion a middle class tam brahmin woman undergoes to compulsorily follow the traditions of the husband's family has to be experienced.Naturally, I do not expect you to understand since you have not undergone this.

None, man or woman, need to fast during illness or long travels.

we are talking about general practices where women are compelled to do certain practices while men have the leverage to adapt/customize to suit their needs.This has nothing to do with Hinduism.

Like it or not. After marriage the primary affliation of a woman shifts after marriage. At lrast in every patriarchy culture. Again, like it or not, patriarchy is the dominant tradition. It has replaced the matriarchy even in S. India. A woman cannot mourn for weeks, without neglecting her husbands and children.

Among Khatris, the mourning is only for three days. On fourth Uthala. On fifth, back to business.

No body is going to mourn for weeks.The question is why is that the woman, if she chooses to stay away from festivals , not allowed to do so when she loses her parents/brothers?I do not expect the husband's family to put away all work and console her - But some kind of sensitiveness to show to your DIL/wife is too much to ask?

If true, tambrams are not moving with time. Time will leave them behind, unless they redefine themselves. Take a leaf from punjbrams.

I might sound insensitive, but realities should not be ignored.

Yes sir, all I ask is , let us look at the practices, adapt to the current scenario, be sensitive to the life partner who has left everything to spend the rest of the life with you .

Shri Kunjuppu's and Shri Raghy's replies prove that there are Tam Brams who have moved with time- but not generally accepted.

From what I understand from Shri Nara's and Shri Sangom's replies to my questions,the practices and traditions are intermediate entrants - nothing to do with what the Veda's say.When questioned on the bias, the questions themselves are viewed as questioning the Hinduism.

I often hear/read this statement - Since woman is supposed to do this, do that etc.When I read this - the questions which come to my mind is - Who supposed for woman.It reminds me of recent move by Members of parliment to reward themselves - they have the power, they take it and enjoy it and wrap it under the framework of Indian Constitution

 

[Nara]

... The woman buys some foil-packed items from the best hotel/s. A woman comes at about 7 or 8 P.M. and makes chapatis or puris and rice as indicated by the housewife on the previous day and keeps those ready in a casserole on the dining table and goes; .

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I wonder how many families can afford this kind of subcontracting arrangement. How common is this practice? Also, it is probably more than likely that the lady who does the cooking in these homes need to cook and clean when she gets to her own home.

Women having to shoulder household responsibilities in addition to working outside the home is not unique to India, it is true in the west as well. The slob ordering his wife to get him a beer is a common stereotype used in TV, perhaps a reflection of art imitating reality. There probably are some social factors that determine how much a man shares in household chores when both work outside the home, but I doubt it.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Thanks Shri Sravna.

Given the choices of building my confidence or building my wealth, I would on any day chose the former.

 

[ganeshrev]

I will recommend a text editor called barahapad.

Thanks Shri Sangom sir - I am going to give it a try.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu,

Expecting questions like the one you asked, I used the word 'trial balance'. It is not a perfect balance sheet where assets total and liabilities will tally.
In trial balance, there is usually a difference which will be reconciled only at a later stage.

I request you to view the travails of Indian working women through Indian prism, not through prism made in USA/UK.

'அக்கரைக்கு இக்கரை பச்சை' என்பது போல, people always envy the other side.Regarding children missing their working mothers during day time, there have been thousands of studies done by sociologists, psychologists and psychiatrists and others, which have almost given identical verdict:

'Lack of emotional bonding or deprivation of motherly love' in one's younger age makes that person pervert, rebel and even an anti-social.With regard to other counter points of yours, I shall reply soon.

dear pann,

my formative experiences are seeing in my pre and early teens, my impoverished girl cousins going to work, initially to contribute to their own marriage, and later contributing to the home income, to afford a half decent life.

the 60s, 70s were not a panacea for working wives, who also entered motherhood almost immediately after marriage. the tragedy was compounded, almost always, by a loutish husband, who still lived in the old paradigm of the wife being the chief cook, bottle washer, housekeeper and sex on demand.

eventually events took place which killed my favourite cousin, and that death finally woke up the husband to what he had been abusing. what is the use of shedding tears after destroying the very flower that has been gifted to you.

i have such reasons to be absolutely non compromising in my admonishment of our menfolk for the absence of basic decency in them when it came to being gentle with their wife. were many of them scared that the title பொண்டாட்டி தாசன் would stick on them or what?

i left india early 1970s and only these past 10 years or so that i come every year or more often. i see the womenfolk in much better state thanks to the new apparatus that has been made available. still i feel, they have some distance to go re assertiveness.

the male has to understand, that the female is very similar to him, in hopes, aspirations and above all self fulfilment. in addition, she performs a gratifying role, ie motherhood. should we as men, take her to task for seeking personal fulfilment, or should we point our finger at motherhood and accuse her of neglect of child.

if it were so important, why cannot the father stay at home for certain number of years to rear the children? after all, now a days women are capable of earning as much or more than their husband? why should we feel that it is the woman's sole prerogative to take care of the children?

the fact that you even ask this question and compare it in terms of 'grass on the greener side' indicate, dear pann, that folks like you have to cross another sea of understanding the little lady that stands by you since the moment you tied the thaali around her neck.

it is high time, we as men, learned to appreciate the immensity of motherhood, and willingly and firmly take over the tasks related to child rearing and let our womenfolks be.. something we as men, have taken for granted till very very recently.

believe me pann, rearing children, i have done it. i have found it the most exhilarating and rewarding experience in my life. to bring the child home, feed it, bathe it, read books to it, take it to the doctor, tuck it into bed every day and above all sharing the hugs, kisses and nonsense words give a joy for which there is no par.

in reality it is us men who have been the losers all these times, for delegating this to our women. let us grab our share, and in the process, reap double rewards of our dharmapathnis for relieiving some of their responsibilities. it takes only a mindset to change. where there is a willingness to adapt, surely anything can be accomplished.

 

[Nara]

Hello sravna and rcscwc, Greetings!

...The comforts you say that a man enjoys only emphasises his physical aspect as it requires much greater strength to abstain from such comforts which a woman is supposed not to enjoy.It also imperceptibly strengthens her inner self compared to the man who does not have that opportunity.

Given the choices of building my confidence or building my wealth, I would on any day chose the former.

But sir, we don't get to choose our gender, do we?

Please educate me sir, what comforts are these that a man can enjoy that a woman is "supposed not to enjoy"?

I also find your claim that a man does not have the opportunity to hone his inner strength and will-power completely unsustainable. The fact of the matter is, the daily life of an observant Brahmin man is much tougher than that of a Brahmin woman. I have a book with me that describes the daily routine of do's for Brahmin men and women, and that book runs to some 700 pages or so. The common Brahmin man has given all that up, voluntarily. So, I am unable to accept your claim that they don't have that opportunity.

In fact, MHO, it is fashionable to question every thing that is Hinduism. Yes. In fact many people are just mortified and shamed that they are Hindus.

Sir, I request you to avoid such ad hominems. Fashionable or not, the question has been raised, please try to answer the question without characterizing the questioner. Your second claim, "mortified and shamed" is another unnecessary side swipe.

Like it or not. After marriage the primary affliation of a woman shifts after marriage. At lrast in every patriarchy culture. Again, like it or not, patriarchy is the dominant tradition. It has replaced the matriarchy even in S. India. A woman cannot mourn for weeks, without neglecting her husbands and children.

[...]

I might sound insensitive, but realities should not be ignored.

You talk as though these are immutable realities, these are just the way they are supposed to be. But, that is what is being questioned. These kinds of practices that expect a girl to forget her family from her parent side and merge her identity with that of her husband, need to be examined closely and modified for the present times. Here is where, IMO, Revathi's second point elevating womanhood to Amman and Mahalakshmi while treating women badly, is relevant. Look at Sita, after marrying Rama she never went back to her father's house. That is your standard, we say to our dils. This is patently absurd.

Anyway, things are not as bleak as this for women these days. All that is needed are some tweaks and some love and understanding. While there may still be horrendous treatment in some individual families, I know a few of them myself, the general trend is for women to have lot closer contact with her birth family than the family into which she marries, and I think this makes lot of sense. Mother and daughter get along splendidly, and conversely, dil and mil get along rather poorly.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

my life defining values have been shaped by family experiences of the 50s, 60s and early 70s.

i am gratified that many of the appliances have helped the lot of the working female. i suspect though in many cases, it only has eased some of the chores, but not essentially the role of the housekeeper.

the times are changing for the better. one of my relatives threw out her husband for being the slob he was.. no amount of counselling by his family her family and friends could change this guy. she threw him out and that was the end of that marriage.

now tell me, what do you think of that? it is the whole story. love marriage. pattar marrying pattar, but the boy only child had no clue to sensitivities of the wife, who saw her sister's marriaage which was a equal partnership. when she demanded the same level of help, up came all the fences and they would not budge. should she have put up with this and ensured the low divorce rates of our community?

btw this is a relation...and i could be biased in the girl's favour. i have to admit that. also no one ever knows 100% what goes on within the four walls of the household..

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Sangom Sir,

This is w.r.t to your post 35.

I live in Bangalore and work in a midsized company - Most of the woman(Both B and NB, other religions) who are in our company come from humble back ground and worked their way to the current position.

Generally, when I talk to them , I find that the main liberty they have from cooking is only on Sundays (probably because men folks are tired of their wife's cooking and want some thing different.

In fact , good many of them say that their husbands refuse to have food in cafeteria because to quote the husbands "What is the use of getting married if we still have to eat in office canteen/Hotel food.We are after all health conscious" .The net result is that the m ost of the middle class women do cook at home except on Sundays.

When I visit Tiruchi, Tanjore districts and smaller towns like Kumbakonam, Mayavaram and visit some relatives , i feel so guilty. These women do go to office (mostly some private companies/teaching) work, they do not still have the liberties enjoyed by city women and the commands men folk make to their wives to impress us(the guests) with the hospitality make me very uncomfortable. Definitely their payscale cannot be compared to that of cities where even a personal secretary is paid 8 lakhs p.a after 10 -12 years of work experience.

After one such visit, I make it a point a point only to visit them during non- dining hours to avoid the ladies do the work and stay at hotel/take food at hotel under some pretext.

So the point I want convey is - Things may be different for upscale tam Bram woman , but the majority of the tam bram middle class still do dual work apart from not having a choice to follow the rituals/traditions however outdated they may be.

My mother's sister was one such - who was working a Junior Engineer is Telephone department (old version before BSNL).She was a gold medallist in chemistry in 1970s.She got married into a family in tanjore District.

She was forced to postpone her menstural cycle using Tablets for following the rituals, festivals and what not.The result was that she was diagnonized with Breast cancer (Doctors told us this is the main reason for breats and Uterus cancer) and died at the age of 42.There are 3 other close relatives who have succumbed to cancer because some how they have to follow all vrathas, traditions and the rituals of the family which were important for the welfare of the husband's family lineage!

Namaskarams
Revathi

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Kunjuppu, I am iintrigued by your statement:

i am awed and pleasantly surprised not only by the frankness of the replies that you received, but also the tone and progressively realistic views as expressed in those responses. i would have liked to hear from someone defending the status quo, but those only seem to send private messages to me, while keeping their mouth shut publicly.

This proves what Ms Valli talked about (some) Brahmin men in the ICM thread which is now closed!Of course everybody has a public and private opinion - but what irks me is that- No I will stop at this - Since I am sure what I say may not serve the purpose of this Thread.

I

Dear reva,

When this thread was started, I was expecting a barrage of abuse a la previous threads which had to be closed.

I am pleasantly surprised by the overall support and willingness to change from most of the posters. Just look at the age spread – from 70s to maybe 30s? I probably expected the older crowd to justify many of the status quo and I am happy that I was wrong.

Still , I think, we have ways to go, before our womenfolk get the benefit of a 50 50 partnership with their husband. It should start with the marriage expense – right from jewellery to pathrams, 50/50 split or if the boys’ parents are better off, let them pay for the whole occasion. All it needs is for someone to start, and the word spread. I think people are more scared of being mocked for exploring new frontiers, and it should not be like that.

Re two faced folks – there are plenty of them here. They might approve ic or international marriage for their child, but would preach something else here. They should examine their conscience and come out in the open as to what they did in private and explain the difference in their public posture.

It is the same with rich tambrams who would spend money renovating a temple or vedapatasala, and would not divert that money to educate a few poor Brahmins. I don’t know how to explain this absence of social conscience.

What did you have in mind for part 2?

 

[ganeshrev]

What did you have in mind for part 2?

Some more questions , of course - May be during the course of the week or weekend!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

I was trying to offer an explanation of why women are subject to certain austerities while men generally are not. My position is that it is not such a bad thing to endure such things as it helps to build your mental strength in some cases. Brahmin women who are more spiritually inclined than others generally have that potential. Gnerally, the more spiritually inclined you are the greater the possibility that you convert the negatives into positives

 

[kunjuppu]

....My mother's sister was one such - who was working a Junior Engineer is Telephone department (old version before BSNL).She was a gold medallist in chemistry in 1970s.She got married into a family in tanjore District.

She was forced to postpone her menstural cycle using Tablets for following the rituals, festivals and what not.The result was that she was diagnonized with Breast cancer (Doctors told us this is the main reason for breats and Uterus cancer) and died at the age of 42.There are 3 other close relatives who have succumbed to cancer because some how they have to follow all vrathas, traditions and the rituals of the family which were important for the welfare of the husband's family lineage!

Namaskarams
Revathi

well reva,

i wonder what the folks who talk about our low divorce rates will comment about these deaths and my cousin who died tragically.

what i find, is a big chasm of understanding the woman - such a dense mindset dear reva, that sometimes even in my own family, i break heads with louts. you know what riles me more..there are womenfolk who find fault with me for coming to the woman's cause.

just because no tragedy did not happen in someone's family, is no excuse, not to be empathetic to those who suffer. there was a lot of tears shed about my lack of empathy to poor tambrams. i do not know how many poor tambrams exists, but i do know we are a large middle class community and many many men with 16th century attitudes.

you are so right about the men's need to brag re hospitality. i too feel uncomfortable, as i have stated in another thread, when the man sits and orders the wife to bring the coffee. why cannot they move their butts and do it for a change? yet to find one in india so far. in a perverse way, where i live in the west, most of the tambram men know how to cook, make dosai and change diapers. so maybe the grass is greener here after all..

so sorry to hear about your chithi..must have been awful for your mom & grand parents..my heartfelt sympathies. for somethings, time does not heal the wounds..

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Nara,

I was trying to offer an explanation of why women are subject to certain austerities while men generally are not. My position is that it is not such a bad thing to endure such things as it helps to build your mental strength in some cases. Brahmin women who are more spiritually inclined than others generally have that potential. Gnerally, the more spiritually inclined you are the greater the possibility that you convert the negatives into positives

sravana, i do not know your age, but if you are a single youngster, your wife is in for a long haul of sorrows.

sir, can you not understand, that the woman is similar to you in wants, cares and comforts. why do you put her as different in all this. she has hunger pangs. she has feelings. unless you identify with it 100%, you are doing her a disservice, and unfortunately, in the long run, short changing yourself.

if you are married, just for one week, do what i say.. and just see the difference in her attitude towards you. that alone should convert you, if not any of my writings. wake up sir.

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom Sir,

This is w.r.t to your post 35.

I live in Bangalore and work in a midsized company - Most of the woman(Both B and NB, other religions) who are in our company come from humble back ground and worked their way to the current position.

Generally, when I talk to them , I find that the main liberty they have from cooking is only on Sundays (probably because men folks are tired of their wife's cooking and want some thing different.

In fact , good many of them say that their husbands refuse to have food in cafeteria because to quote the husbands "What is the use of getting married if we still have to eat in office canteen/Hotel food.We are after all health conscious" .The net result is that the m ost of the middle class women do cook at home except on Sundays.

When I visit Tiruchi, Tanjore districts and smaller towns like Kumbakonam, Mayavaram and visit some relatives , i feel so guilty. These women do go to office (mostly some private companies/teaching) work, they do not still have the liberties enjoyed by city women and the commands men folk make to their wives to impress us(the guests) with the hospitality make me very uncomfortable. Definitely their payscale cannot be compared to that of cities where even a personal secretary is paid 8 lakhs p.a after 10 -12 years of work experience.

After one such visit, I make it a point a point only to visit them during non- dining hours to avoid the ladies do the work and stay at hotel/take food at hotel under some pretext.

So the point I want convey is - Things may be different for upscale tam Bram woman , but the majority of the tam bram middle class still do dual work apart from not having a choice to follow the rituals/traditions however outdated they may be.

My mother's sister was one such - who was working a Junior Engineer is Telephone department (old version before BSNL).She was a gold medallist in chemistry in 1970s.She got married into a family in tanjore District.

She was forced to postpone her menstural cycle using Tablets for following the rituals, festivals and what not.The result was that she was diagnonized with Breast cancer (Doctors told us this is the main reason for breats and Uterus cancer) and died at the age of 42.There are 3 other close relatives who have succumbed to cancer because some how they have to follow all vrathas, traditions and the rituals of the family which were important for the welfare of the husband's family lineage!

Namaskarams
Revathi

Smt. Revathy,

Thank you for the information. I was writing mostly from my experience of Mumbai during the 1980's and what I wrote applied to the upper middle class - if we may term it so - and Bangalore where I have some relatives, mostly in the IT sector. I now understand that the middle class is different. I stand corrected.

The same holds good for what I wrote earlier in r/o vratams and rituals, but from my few years here in TVM, I think (but cannot be sure) that the middle class also are not so fastidious about many aspects of these.

 

[Nara]

...I was trying to offer an explanation of why women are subject to certain austerities while men generally are not.

Dear sravna, I am questioning your premise that men are NOT subject to austerities. Where are you getting this? Let us leave the question of whether it is good or bad for the moment. I would like you to answer the following questions as directly as you can, please.

1. You said there were some comforts that men can enjoy that women are "supposed not to enjoy". Please state what these are, and the source for such injunctions.
2. You claimed men do not have the same opportunity as women to strengthen their inner self. Please explain what the several multiples of austerities prescribed for men in the shasthras than for women, are for, if not opportunities to do exactly that.

Please clarify these two points please.

Cheers!