Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity ?

[bheeshmapitha]

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The other relegious structures are organised,motivated, and more so, more closely knit than the hindu culture. A specific day, ( sunday for christians, Friday for muslims) is earmarked for congregation, inter action and fellowship.While different groups owe their affinity to different churches, still they are united by one faith and one messiah. Any hindu can get into a church unnoticed, kneel down and meditate and experience a similar bliss as experienced in a temple, as I had experienced. And above all, they rise in one voice to thwart any attempt to question their intentions and defend their actions in a singular tone. Look around! Who is their for us to lead, who is an equivalent to a bishop or pastor in our system, who is their to extall the virtues of the god to whom we offer our prayer on a fixed day in a week, where we can get together in a congregation.The other day I attended a prayer meeting in my friends house and they had summoned the pastor to conduct the prayer. He had come, read a few psalms and then sermonised on the importance of spiritualism accepted a cup of coffee, blessed the inmates in the house and gracefully left the house. Through out his presence he exhibited a personal rapport with the members of the family. Contrast this with our system. Speak of Ganapathi homam or any other pooja, a specific fees in thousands is asked as fees for performing the puja and a bargain ensues. To reach God, or to pray to him, if I have to bargain in terms of money, well, I'll leave it at that. Money is no problem in India, particularly with Hindu bretheren, yet where are the orphanages, old age homes, missionaries, and social activists espousing the cause of the poor and down trodden. A existing few can be counted on finger tips and at this moment the only name I can capture is Ramakrishna mission and a few others. We are so sickening in our attitude, are'nt we who obstructed jesudas from entering a temple despite his musical contribution in praise of Hindu gods. Believing that the poor and sick, and the down trodden suffer due to their karma, and that their life need not be redeemed as they have to go through the karma of their past, even if it is true, does not mean that these deserving should be left to suffer or to the mercy of other relegions to mitigate their agony. Name a Hindu saint equivalent to mother theressa, can we. There may be some who are working un announced,but in the present day world, marketting also is called for to keep the flock together. It is not late, time to wake up and see the writing on the wall. The day our preists acts as advisors and guides to people by being available at reasonable dakshinais, and perform the rituals/ poojas/ thevasams, sincerely with out resorting to shortcuts to meet another deadline, and if ritual practices are made affordable to a common man, well, these are my loud thoughts. Any takers. ( For a moment I dont mean to say that the religious leaders from other religions are without blemish. they also have their own draw backs, but atleast for a common cause they are united that is to spread and propogate their religion, but here we are, with every one jumping the band wagon to be critical of our culture and ethos to suit their personal agenda.)

 

[happyhindu]

Bheeshmapitha,

The other relegious structures are organised,motivated, and more so, more closely knit than the hindu culture. A specific day, ( sunday for christians, Friday for muslims) is earmarked for congregation, inter action and fellowship.

There are hindus that go to the temple everyday, there are those who go on a specific day like a saturday or friday or tuesday, i know of women who go everyday during rahukalam. We cannot say there is no interaction and fellowship b/w hindus.

While different groups owe their affinity to different churches, still they are united by one faith and one messiah. Any hindu can get into a church unnoticed, kneel down and meditate and experience a similar bliss as experienced in a temple, as I had experienced. And above all, they rise in one voice to thwart any attempt to question their intentions and defend their actions in a singular tone. Look around! Who is their for us to lead, who is an equivalent to a bishop or pastor in our system, who is their to extall the virtues of the god to whom we offer our prayer on a fixed day in a week, where we can get together in a congregation.

Hindus do svaadhyaya, self-study and approach gurus for guidance. Our gurus lead us on the spiritual path, they explain the meaning and various possible meanings and context of the scriptures. Our gurus are there to lead and guide us.

The other day I attended a prayer meeting in my friends house and they had summoned the pastor to conduct the prayer. He had come, read a few psalms and then sermonised on the importance of spiritualism accepted a cup of coffee, blessed the inmates in the house and gracefully left the house. Through out his presence he exhibited a personal rapport with the members of the family. Contrast this with our system. Speak of Ganapathi homam or any other pooja, a specific fees in thousands is asked as fees for performing the puja and a bargain ensues. To reach God, or to pray to him, if I have to bargain in terms of money, well, I'll leave it at that.

There are gurus who do that, they maintain a personal rapport, guide us, but ofcourse am talking of monks, not ritual priests.

Never heard of ganapati homam or any homam costing thousands in fees. the most expensive, i think are wedding expenses (esp shastiabdipoorti), where priests charge anything b/w 1k to 100k depending on what all homams you want.

Have never bargained with priests, nor has anyone i know in close quarters who has done that (but i do know of others who have short-paid and bargained). Its a job, as good as any other, and why should anyone's salary be denied to him. If at all it bothers anyone that much, he can very well learn to do the procedures himself. Please do not try to convince me that a church functions without payments and donations from devotees.

Money is no problem in India, particularly with Hindu bretheren, yet where are the orphanages, old age homes, missionaries, and social activists espousing the cause of the poor and down trodden. A existing few can be counted on finger tips and at this moment the only name I can capture is Ramakrishna mission and a few others. We are so sickening in our attitude, are'nt we who obstructed jesudas from entering a temple despite his musical contribution in praise of Hindu gods.

In this i partly agree with you, i think the main prob is that the ratio of rich and poor is wide, the rich are so few that contributions from them cannot help handle all the poor, and ofcourse we are no match for foreing funds and institutions funded by "white" governments. As regards jesudas too, i wish we did not function like mecca, and hope there is open entry to all temples to everyone, irrespective of creed, religion, etc. But you must take note that its the temple management (consisting of usually the so-called upper-caste NBs) who decide things, not priests.

Believing that the poor and sick, and the down trodden suffer due to their karma, and that their life need not be redeemed as they have to go through the karma of their past, even if it is true, does not mean that these deserving should be left to suffer or to the mercy of other relegions to mitigate their agony. Name a Hindu saint equivalent to mother theressa, can we. There may be some who are working un announced,but in the present day world, marketting also is called for to keep the flock together.

This a screwed up idea of karma, and unfortunately it is more popular than any other version or explanation of karma. Wud think that Mata Amritanandamayi is equal to mother Teresa (mt), just that mt received a lot more funding and could reach out a lot more.

Sorry, i don;t agree with the marketing part, we cannot become a proselytizing religion just to keep up with the jones (the missionaries), the idea of marketing the idea of having hindu run orphanages, etc and running them is a very welcome thot (will plan with others to do something ourselves).

It is not late, time to wake up and see the writing on the wall. The day our preists acts as advisors and guides to people by being available at reasonable dakshinais, and perform the rituals/ poojas/ thevasams, sincerely with out resorting to shortcuts to meet another deadline, and if ritual practices are made affordable to a common man, well, these are my loud thoughts. Any takers. ( For a moment I dont mean to say that the religious leaders from other religions are without blemish. they also have their own draw backs, but atleast for a common cause they are united that is to spread and propogate their religion, but here we are, with every one jumping the band wagon to be critical of our culture and ethos to suit their personal agenda.)

 

[akura]

மத மாற்றம்

மத மாற்றம் என்பது என்ன ?
இருப்பதை -- இருப்பை .. உணர முடியாததால் ..உணர எத்தனிக்காததால் வரும் துயரமே மத மாற்றம் .
தீதும் நன்றும் பிறர் தர வாரா

 

[ganesh27]

Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity

One of my view for this conversion is Lack of Complete knowledge about Hindu Religion. In the past and even today Hinduism and knowledge of God is restricted to Brahimns only and only few Acharyas took pain to spread the religion accorss the country. If you see entire Avatars of Hindu Gods were supposedly taken in India and we declare India as Karma Bhumi. If that is the case what happen to people born outside India, Are they not part of Human society. Since the religion was confined to few Communities with Hinduism it did not flourish outside India and with today's world other religions are giving equal rights to all who are part the religion and this is absent in our Religion. We Brahmins may represent only 5% of total Hindu community and balance 95% do not know what is Visnusahasranamam or Gayathri Mantram. So who is at Fault?. If you take Islam everyone read Kuran and the same with Christian they read Bible. Our Society read only Kamasutra.

 

[bheeshmapitha]

"There are hindus that go to the temple everyday, there are those who go on a specific day like a saturday or friday or tuesday, i know of women who go everyday during rahukalam. We cannot say there is no interaction and fellowship b/w hindus."
yes, there are hindus who go to temples daily at different times, different places and offer their prayers. Yes, they interact,but how much of their interaction have contributed to a social cause. Generally their activities are limited to vishnu sahasranamams and lalitha sahasranamam or a early morning Bhajan in margazhi, but for a social cause, well, you understand what I mean.
"Hindus do svaadhyaya, self-study and approach gurus for guidance. Our gurus lead us on the spiritual path, they explain the meaning and various possible meanings and context of the scriptures. Our gurus are there to lead and guide us."
Self study and approach guru for guidance - Swadhyaya applies only for a limited few literates, that too in the brahminical cult.What about the many that are abound, and whose appreciation of God's language is limited. And Gurus, where are they who can respond to a lay man's queries and are they there all over the country and accessible to a common man. Guru is the one who can calm my mental confusion in this modern day world spiritually when doubts arise about the very existance of God and relegion. Just self study of slokas without understanding the content is not going to help much. And it is here, a congregation and a knowledgeable guru in a temple contribute.And monks are not many and I think preists who are more accesseble should don the role as is done in islam and christianity.His role in a temple should not be limited to offering prayers, interceding on behalf of the devotees, but a heirarchy to be formed where a senior pontificates and the juniors performs the rituals.
"Never heard of ganapati homam or any homam costing thousands in fees. the most expensive, i think are wedding expenses (esp shastiabdipoorti), where priests charge anything b/w 1k to 100k depending on what all homams you want.

Have never bargained with priests, nor has anyone i know in close quarters who has done that (but i do know of others who have short-paid and bargained). Its a job, as good as any other, and why should anyone's salary be denied to him. If at all it bothers anyone that much, he can very well learn to do the procedures himself. Please do not try to convince me that a church functions without payments and donations from devotees."
haven't you heard preists demanding fees in k's.Well, I still remember having paid about 4000/- for a Ganapathi homam performed at my home, and I don't grudge it. But for people who want to be spiritually and traditionally tuned and for those who cannot afford, what about them.Should they forego performing the homam or keep postponing until a better time comes. Preists are human beings, need to survive, and also have a noble role to play. With their spiritual leaning, a better appreciation and augmentation of human spiritual need is required. Even recently, for an one puja on Varalakshmi nombu day, the demand rose and my neice paid 700/- as demanded and of course she could afford it or even more. But what about those who cannot afford,fore go? "learn to do the procedures by self" I wish me and my previous generation were trained in that. The social changes have deprived many of us of that rare privelege. Even today, if one in a family had learnt sanskrit ( If wishes were to be horses...) And if every one were to follow the procedures, well fine, we will find preists remaining idle, and that too is not healthy. I believe that in their welfare lies the society's welfare.
"Please do not try to convince me that a church functions without payments and donations from devotees"
precisely it is the church that recieves donations and contributions, and is used for so many purposes, philontropic as well as spiritual. Since a large population follows christian faith, there is always a good financial support that is being used effectively. It is here that our structure needs a re-look. Instead of individuals fixing the dakshinai, of course, it is a wild thought, but a thot that can be thot about rather than keep complaining about. That means all these mathams, and spiritual seats need to re assess the changing scenario and arrive at a suitable adaptation in consonance with the social needs. And I do not for a moment decry the presence of priests. They are an essential part of our society,and I wish they be more responsive to changing needs and their well being needs to be guaranteed by this society who seek their role in their daily life.
"and ofcourse we are no match for foreing funds and institutions funded by "white" governments."
The foriegn funds are being used globally by foriegn sponsored charities and missions, and for us, let their be a realisation, funds will flow. What is wanted is the will to render an honest service without discrimination on caste and creed.
"But you must take note that its the temple management (consisting of usually the so-called upper-caste NBs) who decide things, not priests."
True, but we the people had a voice, and could have raised our voice in unison and supported Jesudas, but did we do that. We failed miserably.
"the idea of marketing the idea of having hindu run orphanages, etc and running them is a very welcome thot (will plan with others to do something ourselves)."
And that is what I meant, not the religion.

 

[RVR]

Do you think all the muslims and christians know Kuran or Bible. I have seen in Germany where people don't bother about church.

Christianity is losing charm in the western world. People have become more materialistic and have least affection for their religion. Pope has pointed out this many times. They cannot awaken western people. That is why Church is concentrating in Asian countries where the opportunity is large among poor and downtrodden.

Do we bother about the poor and downtrodden in India. We neglect them and the poor has no option but to align with those who support them. Education and health are the two areas where Christian Missionaries concentrate.

But inspite of several missioneries operating in India, the population of Christian community in India is hardly 2% which the Pope feels very bad. It means even the poor and downtrodden from all castes of Hindu religion are not willing to break their faith except few. The hindu organisations should start schools and hospitals in a big way and service the poor and downtrodden so that there is no need for others to fill the gaps.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Reasons for Conversion to Islam/Christianity

I am posting a news item forwarded by my cousin from Chennai, which I hope will be of interest to Tamil Brahmins.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://newstodaynet.com/images/stories/columns/sharpshot/2009-images/07082009-sun1.gif

Advent Christian Church Building at Tiruvanmiyur. See the cloth poster displaying in Tamil ‘Christuva Brahmana Seva Samithi’

On Thursday (6-8-2009) a resident got a phone call from some senior Hindu citizens of Tiruvanmiyur. All of them were about a
poster put up by the Advent Christian Church at Tiruvanmiyur. The poster has been put up by ‘Christuva Brahmana Seva Samithi’, announcing that there is going to be a ‘*Kathaa Kaalakshepam* *’* by “*Poojyasri Bhagavatar Vedanaayakam Shastrikal*” on 8-8-2009 (Saturday) at 5 PM at the Advent Christian Church premises.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[RVR]

Certain christian organisations indulge in such practices. Dravidian parties indulge provocating anti-brahmin speeches & writings whereas these christian organisations wants to imitate our practices. We have become focal point for all these elements. Better ignore all these things. Ignoring such activities is the best method of insulting them

 

[anandb]

Dear Bheeshma

The other relegious structures are organised,motivated, and more so, more closely knit than the hindu culture. A specific day, ( sunday for christians, Friday for muslims) is earmarked for congregation, inter action and fellowship.While different groups owe their affinity to different churches, still they are united by one faith and one messiah. Any hindu can get into a church unnoticed, kneel down and meditate and experience a similar bliss as experienced in a temple, as I had experienced. And above all, they rise in one voice to thwart any attempt to question their intentions and defend their actions in a singular tone. Look around! Who is their for us to lead, who is an equivalent to a bishop or pastor in our system, who is their to extall the virtues of the god to whom we offer our prayer on a fixed day in a week, where we can get together in a congregation.The other day I attended a prayer meeting in my friends house and they had summoned the pastor to conduct the prayer. He had come, read a few psalms and then sermonised on the importance of spiritualism accepted a cup of coffee, blessed the inmates in the house and gracefully left the house. Through out his presence he exhibited a personal rapport with the members of the family. Contrast this with our system. Speak of Ganapathi homam or any other pooja, a specific fees in thousands is asked as fees for performing the puja and a bargain ensues. To reach God, or to pray to him, if I have to bargain in terms of money, well, I'll leave it at that. Money is no problem in India, particularly with Hindu bretheren, yet where are the orphanages, old age homes, missionaries, and social activists espousing the cause of the poor and down trodden. A existing few can be counted on finger tips and at this moment the only name I can capture is Ramakrishna mission and a few others. We are so sickening in our attitude, are'nt we who obstructed jesudas from entering a temple despite his musical contribution in praise of Hindu gods. Believing that the poor and sick, and the down trodden suffer due to their karma, and that their life need not be redeemed as they have to go through the karma of their past, even if it is true, does not mean that these deserving should be left to suffer or to the mercy of other relegions to mitigate their agony. Name a Hindu saint equivalent to mother theressa, can we. There may be some who are working un announced,but in the present day world, marketting also is called for to keep the flock together. It is not late, time to wake up and see the writing on the wall. The day our preists acts as advisors and guides to people by being available at reasonable dakshinais, and perform the rituals/ poojas/ thevasams, sincerely with out resorting to shortcuts to meet another deadline, and if ritual practices are made affordable to a common man, well, these are my loud thoughts. Any takers. ( For a moment I dont mean to say that the religious leaders from other religions are without blemish. they also have their own draw backs, but atleast for a common cause they are united that is to spread and propogate their religion, but here we are, with every one jumping the band wagon to be critical of our culture and ethos to suit their personal agenda.)

Firstly you cannot compare religions like Hinduism which is more loose knit, flexible and devotion oriented to organised religions like Islam or Christianity. When a religion is as organised as Islam or Christianity it is definitely going to have better marketing, more funding and more reach (for the time being) than Hinduism. To me, the purpose of a religion is to promote spirituality rather than functioning like a gargantuan well oiled machine aiming to spread either through proselytising or jihad at the expense of other religions.

I don't find anything wrong in fees being asked as dakshina. Unfortunately we brahmins should feel guilty that when it comes to paying dakshina we squirm while we may tip a waiter generously at a star hotel. Even if you compare to the organized religions, a Christian pastor or a Muslim cleric is taken good care of compared to the Hindu priests who are ridiculed by the Hindus themselves. These priests also have families with wives who have aspirations and children who study. If we start giving generously for this class of people, you can probably see that they will stop expecting as well. When it is a commercial transaction we don't shy in spending money but when it comes for spending for a homam or dakshina why this double standard. I can speak from my own experience. When I did upanayanam for my first son, I decided to bring 15 rtkviks from Mattur in Karnataka (all the inhabitants of this village speak Sanskrit) which did not go well with my parents and brother as I did not use our family priest. Though I included our family priest among the rtkviks the fact I gave away a huge amount of dakshina and gifts to the rtkviks was not welcomed so much by members of teh family. Why I say this is there is an inward resistance to pay generously the rtkviks which should change.

I agree with you on the Yesudas episode but please remember the average Hindu is very broad-minded and tolerant. The office bearers of any temple or religious organisation are generally people more known for their administrative capabilities than spirituality and these are the people who take these stupid decisions relating to incidents like Yesudas. Where we Hindus do fail is in rallying behind issues which we feel are fair and right. So what I condemn here is the apathy of Hindus.

Thanks

 

[bheeshmapitha]

Firstly you cannot compare religions like Hinduism which is more loose knit, flexible and devotion oriented to organised religions like Islam or Christianity. When a religion is as organised as Islam or Christianity it is definitely going to have better marketing, more funding and more reach (for the time being) than Hinduism. To me, the purpose of a religion is to promote spirituality rather than functioning like a gargantuan well oiled machine aiming to spread either through proselytising or jihad at the expense of other religions.

I don't find anything wrong in fees being asked as dakshina. Unfortunately we brahmins should feel guilty that when it comes to paying dakshina we squirm while we may tip a waiter generously at a star hotel. Even if you compare to the organized religions, a Christian pastor or a Muslim cleric is taken good care of compared to the Hindu priests who are ridiculed by the Hindus themselves. These priests also have families with wives who have aspirations and children who study. If we start giving generously for this class of people, you can probably see that they will stop expecting as well. When it is a commercial transaction we don't shy in spending money but when it comes for spending for a homam or dakshina why this double standard. I can speak from my own experience. When I did upanayanam for my first son, I decided to bring 15 rtkviks from Mattur in Karnataka (all the inhabitants of this village speak Sanskrit) which did not go well with my parents and brother as I did not use our family priest. Though I included our family priest among the rtkviks the fact I gave away a huge amount of dakshina and gifts to the rtkviks was not welcomed so much by members of teh family. Why I say this is there is an inward resistance to pay generously the rtkviks which should change.

I agree with you on the Yesudas episode but please remember the average Hindu is very broad-minded and tolerant. The office bearers of any temple or religious organisation are generally people more known for their administrative capabilities than spirituality and these are the people who take these stupid decisions relating to incidents like Yesudas. Where we Hindus do fail is in rallying behind issues which we feel are fair and right. So what I condemn here is the apathy of Hindus.

Thanks

If you have carefully noticed, I was advocating the same thing that you have said.The preists should be taken care of, and there is no doubt about it, but by whom, is the question. If matts, temples, endowment departments or any autonomous relegious seat can undertake the coordination and structuring of the preistly class in such a way that they too can have a lively hood in a decent way without being ridiculed, what more can one ask for. As you yourself have said if muslim and christian preists can be taken care of, why not hindu preists. I have extended my contention further that deprivation for those who cannot afford should not be there and it is here that the preists should rise to the occasion. I am happy you brought sanskrit scholars to your sons upanayanam, but how many can afford it even if they have a will. And further, it is because we are loosely knit, we are becoming vulnerable and poached upon. While centuries of attack on hinduism could not annihlate it, why raise a furore when there are sporadic conversions. And what about the conversions that takes place in other religions like buddhists. Remember the mass conversion that took place in delhi.

 

[KRS]

Dear sapr333,

I will respond to your posting in detail, as I said I would. But I am waiting for your response to at least 3 long time mebers' postings: Sri kunjuppu Ji, Sri Hari1972 and Srimathi HH Ji.

Let me know whether you are going to respond to them, especially the direct question to you posed by Sri Hari1972.

I can then post my response.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sapr333]

Shri.KRS, back from a long break..Bit tied up.

Will soon address all in general,.. may be in 'passive voice'.

Till such time, kindly bear with me

 

[anandb]

Dear Bheeshma

If you have carefully noticed, I was advocating the same thing that you have said.The preists should be taken care of, and there is no doubt about it, but by whom, is the question. If matts, temples, endowment departments or any autonomous relegious seat can undertake the coordination and structuring of the preistly class in such a way that they too can have a lively hood in a decent way without being ridiculed, what more can one ask for. As you yourself have said if muslim and christian preists can be taken care of, why not hindu preists. I have extended my contention further that deprivation for those who cannot afford should not be there and it is here that the preists should rise to the occasion. I am happy you brought sanskrit scholars to your sons upanayanam, but how many can afford it even if they have a will. And further, it is because we are loosely knit, we are becoming vulnerable and poached upon. While centuries of attack on hinduism could not annihlate it, why raise a furore when there are sporadic conversions. And what about the conversions that takes place in other religions like buddhists. Remember the mass conversion that took place in delhi.

I think if all the Hindus perform the samskaras to their utmost capacity, the Hindu priests are automatically taken care of because one needs a priest to perform a pooja or a homam or a sraardham. Hinduism has always been loose knit, then and now. But probably a 1000 years back amid the Islamic and British onslaught, Hinduism could face it because the Hindus still believed in a Hindu way of life based on our traditions and culture. What I am worried now is the erosion of that culture. How many Hindus and their children are today aware of what the scriptures or our mythology says? Behind all those stories there was a moral. How many are aware of it? When the foundations become weak, the attacks become more effective. This is a problem that we have to address ourselves as Hindus. I agree that we can blame other religions only to some extent. If the Bible or Koran tell its followers to spread their faith by any means, then that is a situation that we have to accept. They are not going to stop doing it. So we need to look inwards and see what we can do.

I don't believe in these stories of what can happen to a 10000 year old religion and so on. We cannot sit still and think that god will come and save us. We have to do our bit definitely.

 

[sapr333]

Reality Bites… Truth hurts… And all that leads to pain, if not taken in right spirit. A catch-22 situation.

Before that, accept my sincere apologies for the delayed response.


Most of the times, I was nitpicking philosophies and faiths in order to try a new perspective, and the journey always ended up like Columbus, with a nose cut. I thought, in my weeklong absence, some interesting points would be discussed in this thread,in line with the mission, but then truly, not a single post talked about 'Stopping Conversions’.

And, off late I realized, I was trying them in a wrong place. Anyways, my intentions were not wrong, cos, I know, tomorrows world gonna speak my language, and every one should be prepared for this, while discussing about conversion.

Minutes ago,I hit upon this interesting lines of 'Dinesh D'souza' which says,' The Christian conversions grew up 200% in the last 200 years, a sudden explosion, which was so high than compared to any Inquisition/Conquests etc.. The reason attributed to that is, the availability of communication systems like Printing press, Microphone,TV and now Internet. Evangelists knock the door for conversion, where as Catholics convert the entire village or district like Kandhamal. I’m not sure if someone has figured out their strategy, of building a ‘community life’ than ‘way of life’. No one discussed a counter strategy.


Someone was worried, that some one is hurting Hinduism by abusive talks.. Here I say, I don’t know, how to tolerate or accommodate Truth and Untruth. Can Galileo’s mathematical proof tolerate Ptolemy? S.O.S, Pls help me!!

Can we drain the inks of Dan Brown/Salman Rushdie/Jyllands-Posten's Flemming Rose?..I won’t ball over to say, 'The author of New Life church's Satyadharshini-mangalore tract is a Hyderabadi Brahmin convert. The message here is, we all, bogged up in secularism, are finally on our way to a slippery slope where no-one can tell how the self-censorship will end. Not alone missionaries, tomorrow when our children, grew up, with free access to Print/TV/Internet would definitely ask back, Dad!, is Mary a surrogate mother? Was J.C in love with Magdalene? How can gods indulge in rape and violence?. How come a person who broke all the Ten Commandments all through his life, can be a Prophet to claim divine revelations. Not sure, the modern day mothers and grannies are equipped to convincingly answer them with reasoning, other than hushing them in the name of ‘faith’!! Do you call these questions as intolerant and abusive in nature?

The issue here is, the motive.. If such act’s motive is just to abuse/hurt some community/faith, then, sure one needs to condemn it. I feel the objective here is , change of faith than abusing a faith Can’t believe, a book review on Kancha Ilaiah, was perceived as someone coming to forum with an offensive material!!! Intolerant towards opposite views!! I bought both Kancha/Satanic Verses/Dan Brown’s book with much curiosity, but not shunned them with anger. If one wants to stop conversion, he should first learn about the other side. One may be surprised; all the 18th century Jesuit missionaries studied Vedas and Upanishads before venturing in to conversion.

Then comes the issue, aliens are not eligible to be a critic. Indian doesn’t want an outsider called America to intervene in Kashmir. But we rejoice, when America warns/bombs or put economic sanctions on Pakistan. We enjoy American policing of Pakistan.. Arent we Hippocratic!!. Buddha/Luther criticized their religions even after exiting them, but the parent religions, though made them outcaste, but corrected themselves soon after, and made revolutionary changes.Opinions and perceptions of any one would change as times goes by. Conversions also happen like that in passage of time,and may be, someday, all of India could be of Buddhism. Judging some one as Spaniard is yet another eg, but the objective is definitely not to seek an apology, rather to highlight the mode of change in perceptions. However, I do appreciate that good gesture in HH being open hearted and transparent.

Someone said, ‘You don’t know about Hinduism, you know nothing about Vedas or dwaitha/Advaitha’ Hey!You admitted openly your lack of knowledge about Hindu philosophy et al.. Hmm!! That’s the sheer attitude (weakness) of every average Indian, ‘You know nothing’. And, surprisingly he is the one who is highly worried about Conversions. But, try whispering ‘I don’t know about Christianity’ to a Christian, for sure he would get delighted talk/teach about J.C on an on an on with joy. Once, I also viewed Bobby Jindal’s conversion to Catholicism as a ‘materialistic’ one, for political gains, until I read his article few weeks ago. He also pondered the same question, Can god’s be violent?, and it seems no one tried to answer his question. To the max, someone would have asked to meet a guru. In reality, a proper logical response with reasoning would have prevented his conversion!!

Once, I asked ‘What’s wrong with conversion? Tried a different approach here, but haven’t got answers, other than being honored as ‘Mr.Obfuscating. & transgressor. Yes, in common admission tests, we tick, what the examiner thinks as ‘right’. But, in the next phase of ‘Group discussion’, we analyze and critic a ‘topic’ in all angles, and make our own conclusions, but don’t toe the line of the examiners,’ some of the winning G.D’s concluded “In 1969 three monkeys landed on moon’. I’m not sure if, that’s apocryphal. While talking about finding a solution to stop conversion, one should also sport the shoes of the other person, and see how it feels? Sadly, there is no response for the wonderful post #88 by anandb!!

In a forum, it’s always fun, to have a temporary fire show and soon to patch up with human touch, and move forward with a learning’s got from the subtly messages, esp, shared by forum’s affectionate Norse goddess Elli Elli, the goddess of old age who defeated Thor in a wrestling match. And, now, Mister Andy Kaufman's gone wrestling Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah..


With a chuckle, I conclude....“Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa’… though I know, some one outhere, may be busy 'profiling' me with this Latin statement?

 

[RVR]

dear Mr. Sapr 333,

Inspite of more than 200 years of Christian Rule (British, French, Portughese, Dutch etc) there is hardly 2% christians in India. Pope himself expressed his displeasure that their mission is not working in India. Inspite of severe poverty and greatly dis-organised Hindu society, the missioneries are unable to achieve their objectives. Two days back there was a news item stating that more than 200 people reconverted to Hinduism. Dravidan party members with their own families are visiting temples and performing pariharams than most of the devoted Hindus.

You wrote somewhere that conversions has taken christian population to 200% in the last two hundred years. But do you think all the present Christians in western world are highly devoted to their religion. I had the opportunity to stay with few German families and I was shocked to know that they are least interested in their religion. I think christianity is losing its charm in the western world and the Church is unable to make inroads in poor countries like India.

Let us not bother about conversions and concentrate on Human development. Only Christians are bothered about conversions while most of the other religions not bothered about it

 

[hariharan1972]

yet another of my beliefs has been vindicated ; long posts for short questions are certainly useless.

yes reality bites and that's perhaps why direct answers are being evaded.

if there's nothing 'wrong' about conversions, pray why conversions have to be stopped ?

the 'means' - methods of the missionaries - to the 'end' - harvesting souls - is what is being questioned. and that questioning has a certain context.

a nation where majority are impoverished, have very little education, cannot defend their culture, tradition and their eco system being taken away from them, partly by force, largely by deceit.

i wonder why someone who can be very proficient in latin, cannot understand this simple fact.

actually, it is too true to accept.

if sathya darshini has been penned by a converted brahmin, does it absolve the church ? pray, after conversion, how come he is still known to be a 'brahmin' ?

so, as long as he was successfully harvesting souls, he was a christian and the moment he was caught with his charade, suddenly the church remembers him to be a brahmin.

how convenient ?

truly a faith cannot get more convenient than this.

faith can be questioned for the values it proposes ; for the tenets that it ordains it's followers to follow.

a person who is genuinely interested in questioning would not stoop to the levels that the missionaries stoop too.

ever noticed how a dawkins does not indulge in abuse ? he is certain that there's no god, but he is logical enough in his construct.

for ex, he doesnt refute 'dont believe in god the b*****d, but only wrote ' the god delusion'. his case is that the vast majority of humanity is deluding itself by believing in god.

but what the missionaries do is to make a hindu disbelieve that krishna lifted mountain meru with his little finger and instead make him believe that jesus fed a large group with 2 loaves of bread and 5 fish.

and that's abuse ; and that's bad in law.

and pray what's to be accomodated ? should the hindus accomodate the "supposed fact" that their god is a prostitute ? on what basis ?

because a converted christian says so ? and what incriminating evidence does the church have in it's possession to substantiate it's claim ?

whichever language the world of tomorrow would speak, surely, there's no place for obfuscation in the world ; today or tomorrow or the day after ; english, greek or latin.

it's not enough to say 'one needs to condemn it' ; the point is whether 'you condemn it ?' ; do you dare ; do you have the courage of conviction ?

we are well informed about robert caldwell and his sinister attempts ; so what's the point here ? call for history to repeat ?

we have to be in a zoo to be 'hippocratic', (sic) but it's not even amusing now to know who's talking of hypocrisy.

conversion neednt be stopped ; it has to be done in a transparent, non abusive manner.

in anycase this is a closure from my side, as i have realized that it is futile to engage anyone with a conditioned mind and who perhaps is on the payrolls of powers that be.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Sri sapr333,
There is no need for moderation here.

Let me copy here to what Sri Hari asked you to answer 'yes' or 'no'.

"you havent answered the basic question, whose answer can only be binary.

is the abuse of hinduism by the missionaries, correct or not ?

why dont you dare answering it."

It seems to me you have a choice to answer 'yes' or 'no' or you don't want to answer. Instead, you take a vague pedantic journey that culminates with Andy Kaufman (the man from the moon) wrestling!

He has every right to be frustrated about your innate inability to answer his direct question. He did not call you names. He said 'you fled' from answering. In my opinion that is the correct way of describing you not answering a direct question repeated many times. You have diminished his membership here by being equivocal. And being a member in this Forum requires you to participate in a manner that would advance the interests of this community. And the question he asked is directly related to the interests of this community.

Hope, I have made the situation clear.

Regards
KRS

yes reality bites and that's perhaps why someone couldnt take the bite and fled the scene. .

Shri.Hari,

Though I found some interesting points to discuss, I think I need to take a call on this!! ie, my underscored quote.

Once,when I erred, and posted something wrong against you (IPR Poetry---without reading your subsequent posts), I was open enough to come clear and sought an apology 'in public'..

Out here, I was quite clear, that I'm goin on a holiday, and sang the tunes of dire straites.When delayed, and futher prompted by Shri.KRS, I still put a rejoinder seeking time...I also said elsewhere, in 'Forum suggestion thread' about setting up a 'Mobile based website', in order to reduce the gprs mobile data cost, while in roaming, so that, one can spend time in site, while holiday out in roaming areas,without burning the wallet. That was the sense of prevail.

I was even OK, when I was portrayed, as if Im obfuscating..Thought you would have tried this vocab in a casual literal term, like how we used to mug those vocabs for CAT exams, in our younger days, a decade or bit more ago. A benefit of doubt, granted then..

But I was quite shell shocked, when you called me that 'I fled the scene' today. May be some of my previous posts might have slipped out of your eyes.. However, I think, its high time, I seek and appeal for MODERATION, before I take a call on this..

My call is, whether to hang out here in this thread or to exit my self from participating such divisive threads...All depends on the forthcoming verdict of moderators

 

[silverfox]

Dear Mr. sapr333:
I have been reading all the postings of the members on this forum with interest. First of all, to your question "what is wrong with conversion", I categorically say "nothing". If someone wants to convert to another religion, that is their personal business and we have no right to question the motives.

Having said that, I am sorry to tell you, Mr. sapr333, except that question of yours, I couldn't make out head or tail out of the rest of your posting (-- not that I am that smart!!). Maybe it is my inadequacy! Perhaps you might be better understood if you write your postings in French!! I remember you had used French in one of the earlier postings. But then, the rest of us (at least I do) will need translation. You remind me of our (USA) politicians who, when confronted with a simple direct question, will talk for hours except answering it!
Obfuscation has a new meaning!
If I am not mistaken, you still haven't answered Hari's direct questions!!

 

[sapr333]

dear Mr. Sapr 333,

Inspite of more than 200 years of Christian Rule (British, French, Portughese, Dutch etc) there is hardly 2% christians in India. Pope himself expressed his displeasure that their mission is not working in India. Inspite of severe poverty and greatly dis-organised Hindu society, the missioneries are unable to achieve their objectives. Two days back there was a news item stating that more than 200 people reconverted to Hinduism. Dravidan party members with their own families are visiting temples and performing pariharams than most of the devoted Hindus.

You wrote somewhere that conversions has taken christian population to 200% in the last two hundred years. But do you think all the present Christians in western world are highly devoted to their religion. I had the opportunity to stay with few German families and I was shocked to know that they are least interested in their religion. I think christianity is losing its charm in the western world and the Church is unable to make inroads in poor countries like India.

Let us not bother about conversions and concentrate on Human development. Only Christians are bothered about conversions while most of the other religions not bothered about it

Shri.Venkataramani,

You have a valid point, and it seems, the originator of this thread is not aware of the ground reality...

Like you, not me, but the author of this thread is much worried about the conversions to Islam/Christianity in India.. The data I was talking about 200years and 200% is a global figure, and is no way related to India..

 

[sapr333]

Dear Mr. sapr333:
>> except that question of yours, I couldn't make out head or tail out of the rest of your posting

>> I remember you had used French in one of the earlier postings.

>> when confronted with a simple direct question, will talk for hours except answering it!
Obfuscation has a new meaning!

>>If I am not mistaken, you still haven't answered Hari's direct questions!!

Shri.Silverfox, its true my post was mostly written in a passive voice, as a cummulative summatory response to all the previous posts,both here and in yet another thread, bit touching all of them, without any name calling or pointing anyone specific ..I do agree with you,that, you may find it difficult to figure out the head or tail, unless you were actively participating here for last few months.

Regarding French or Latin, I'm not an expert in any of those languages. Its only in school I studied bit of Francais for 7Yrs (Regret, I intentionally missed Tamil, for want of good scores in +2), and If you ask me to converse with a French men, I would only be blinking like a villager. I admit...A chauffeur in pondicherry would definitely beat me..

However, I use the common phrases, like how you and me use those non-english (normally) used words like etc, Anna Dominie(AD),cest la vie,requiem,gracias.. I know Shri.Kunjuppu uses those terms often very effectively(esp,in right contex), which I used to enjoy them too..His latest usage of Aramaic-Greek language ' Eli Eli Lama' is something I enjoyed in the recent past.I'm not sure if you sought any translation for this.

Yeh, regarding Shri.Hari's question, I do agree, he has posted some intersting questions, but I have reserved my response, awaiting his response on callin' me as an 'escapade'..When I did such a similar mistake once against Shri.Hari, I was frank enough to tender an apology in public,without any one demanding it. Btw, Im not demanding such stuff here, rather, If not responded, Im only saying, that, I would exit this particular thread, in a Gandhian way!!

Also, frankly,I dont have much idea about your American politicans, and hence I regret, for not being able to share my opinon on that, of comparing me to an American politician.

Inspite of you being Super Mod, my interaction with you is limited.. Pls bear with me, for not being able to narrate the incidences of past.. And hence I would wait for the known Mod's response on that..I mean, shri.KRS and Shri.Kunjuppu

Doesnt matter, no harm though.. If Mod's feel Im wrong and Im not fit for this thread or eloping answers, I would rather exit this particular thread in a humble manner , than fretting here around.. Thats my school of thought..Thanks indeed

 

[silverfox]

Dear Mr. sapr333:
I hope you weren't offended by my remarks made in jest. I have been away from the forum for a while and now I am back!
Apart from your waiting for others to respond to you, the following are my observations:These are my personal views and am not acting as a moderator.
1. As you know by now, this forum is for the welfare and uplifting of Tamil Brahmin community.
2. Judging from your postings, we can be certain that you ARE a Christian (...or, you are NOT a Tamil Brahmin).
My question to you is: (Please do not take it in an offensive way)
Why do you bother to be member in this forum? You cannot possibly help the TB community, nor would you understand our sub-culture.
The above question leads me to believe that perhaps you are adhering to your biblical beliefs that you have to 'spread the word of God' (read: convert people) and by joining this forum, maybe you are hoping to get a few converts!!
I may be completely off base; nevertheless, these doubts do crop up in my mind.
Again, i am posing these questions without any malice in my heart. Feel free to shoot me down with your response!

 

[sapr333]

1>>Judging from your postings, we can be certain that you ARE a Christian (...or, you are NOT a Tamil Brahmin)>>

2>>Why do you bother to be member in this forum?

3>> You cannot possibly help the TB community, nor would you understand our sub-culture.

4>> maybe you are hoping to get a few converts!!

I may be completely off base; nevertheless, these doubts do crop up in my mind.
Again, i am posing these questions without any malice in my heart. Feel free to shoot me down with your response!

Shri.Silverfox,

1)Many of them tried to profile me.. Few posts before, you must have found a sentence ' calling me as spaniad' few months ago, and still I couldnt control my laughter..You may not know head and tail of it,cos you admitted that you were not in touch with this forum for a while..Yes, I always wanted my words to speak, not my identity..Only 14 people attended the cremation of Bharathi, or majority of TN population of south discounted EVR..But both of them found place in History and Im one of the admirers of them.. I have even tried to hide my tamil identity, until when shri.Kunjuppu (Mod) opened an interesting thread called 'Integration with Tamil tribes'.. Anyways, to be frank, I dont want to reveal my identity here. You are free to assume..

2 & 3)And why Im a member of this forum??.. Hmm!! Pls go through all of my posts, and also my blog.. You will realise..Possibly you might not have helped a TB in line with how much I have done already ..a wild bet, Huh!! Just couldnt control my laughter.. Take it easy!!btw, forget TB, AB or XB, this forum is packed with good quality people.. Is there anything wrong for a stranger or a Nicaraguan engaging here in a dialogue?

>>this forum is for the welfare and uplifting of Tamil Brahmin community>>>

I know it, and like you am fine with that too. But I've moved bit forward, to uplift the entire mankind, like Bharathiyar who said, 'Thani manithanukku unavillayel, intha jagatthinaye azhithiduvom' ..Though selfish in personal acts, my thinking has got bit widened, off late..


4) Im fishing out for converts???... If not me, for any one in this world,this is a wrong place, I bet..Probably you have not understood what conversion and its mechanism is all about!! Thats the point I was also talking here, in my long post, and the each paragraph ending lines suffixed a question, in similar school of thought.. Jist.. You have not understood what conversion is all about..btw, let me revert back with a simple crispy question.. How much conversion to Christianity/Islam is relevant to the TB community? esp, in the present scenario? Whats the adverse impact of conversion on TB"s?

Shri.Silverfox take it lightly. I also know, that you are one of the oldest members with a good contributions.. Sadly, since I joined I havent seen any of your responses. But,since you asked those questions without any malice in heart, Im bound to respect you, and hence expressed those things, from deep within my heart.

As you said, you are completely off base, you may find it difficult to tie them all. But then, I would sincerely request you to have an active participation in this forum.. We missed you, for long!!

PS:Still waiting for the response, to my appeal for Moderation..

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

well, this moderator is not going to give a ruling.

i sure would like to say a few things. you are absolutely right that this is a great forum. i have been in a few, and have seldom enjoyed so much participation, across a wide variety of topics, as here.

there are giants here.

one who is missing is nacchinarkiniyan. i miss him more than anyone else. it is the circumstances under which he left, that made me realize the need to protect the forum against riff raffs. hence, much reluctantly, but with immense caution, i took upon this role.

to me, a moderator's primary duty is to uphold the mission of the forum. these are very clear and could be read by anyone wishing to join. i hope every member does.

another responsibility is to protect against spams.

in many a thread, i have no interest at all. or hold views that are diametrically opposed to the said purpose of the thread. but if these threads fall within the confines of the mission statement, i let them be.

i glance through them for any abuse. i do not necessarily read them to comprehend.

i take it for granted, that the participants are adults.

individual altercations, are often, the product of the heat of the moment, that you so finely put it thus, a temporary fire show and soon to patch up with human touch, and move forward with a learning’s got from the subtly messages

i will invoke the spirit of your statement and suggest this to you.. i have known hari for a while. i stand by his integrity and love of this forum.

i also know that while hari is impeccable in his logic, he is also a big guy to bow before erudition, clarity and sense of purpose.

sapr, i have found, that in many a case, the process of misunderstanding, rises with failure to communicate.

the offending phrase to you appears to be 'fled the scene'. perhaps, you might want to seek clarification from hari, as to what he meant.

why not go a little further? start with addressing hari and explain to him, as to the inappropriateness of the accusatory verb 'flee' in your context.


why you find it objectionable. perhaps it is not as severe as you think.


perhaps venture the first step to cool the air with your dialectics. against your guts maybe, but as the nike ad says, 'do the right thing'

to sum up, i think you should give hari the benefit of the doubt, and see what develops.

sapr, i think, the strength of a post, lies not in converting your opponent to your viewpoint. but to make him understand, not only the reasonability of your stand, but the reasoning behind it.

i think,moderation of the nature that you request, is for kids or for suspected immaturity. i have sufficient regard for you, to absolve you of either.

on the other hand, if you ask me whether this thread is appropriate in this forum, then maaaaaaaaay be....

thank you.

ps.. i should confess, that your post #89 went way over my head.. you flatter me truly by invoking my posts as models, in your explanation to silverfox. (it appears you have editted this section, but i would like to stand by my statement, if you don't mind?)

pps. flattery may get you everywhere in my realm, but what use it is to earn laurels from an emperor who wears no clothes?

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapr333,

I have always been upfront with you. Because I think that you are basically a good man. A good man with wrong ideas, perhaps. But still a good man. Following is my response to your direct posting to me some time ago before you took your absence and the more 'general' one where you purport to address a bunch of posters' queries to you. But, please be forewarned. I have no flair of language displayed by others here, more notably Sri kunjuppu Ji, and neither do I have the facility to be indirect. So, here it goes:

1) First about entering this site with Kancha Illiah's book (Why I Am Not a Hindu)excerpts. When others dismissed the book as anti Hindu, I told you I would read the book and pass judgement. Which I did. I could not believe the mis information Kancha was spreading and his hatred towards a great religion based on an unfortunate aspect of the degradation of the sociological aspect of that religion - singling out to destroy the whole religion when other religions he extolls had other sociological warts. How do you expect such an unscholorly work from an outsider who even does not know the basic of our religion to be discussed as though we have to defend Hinduism? It is akin to all those muslims you have responded to in various websites who question Christianity's basic assumptions. But still we allowed you to post on. If you want I have no problem in discussing this in detail.

2) Srimathi HH Ji, already has apologized for thinking that you are a Christian missionary. So no need to bring it up again. But then I have been watching your posts in Outlook and especially on 'the Great Hindu' during the time you were posting here, and your responses there clearly paint a picture of who you are. As I said before, please do not insult my little intelligence. Do you want me to post here your specific postings in relation to Christianity and Hinduism to show our members what you really think? By the way, your comaparative narratives are wrong as you are keen to debate with unfortunate suckers who do not understand the broad panaroma of Hinduism.

3) You somehow seem to think that your view of the universe through the Christian glass is superior. So you denigrate the Brahmin culture through what Kancha has said (in these other web sites) and you make fantastic claims about what Hinduism concepts are (like Maya) without understanding an iota of what my religion is all about. When we tried to teach you, you selectively choose to repeat your mantra without any logical foundation. When I said 'religion is cultural' you did not answer except to say 'I disagree'. On what basis? Because you agree with this Truth, then you can not even justify yourself embracing your religion.

4) While saying that you have an 'open' mind about religions in this Forum, you exactly posted the opposite views at other places. It is okay, but please do not make fools out of us.

5) True conversions are never a problem to the Hindus. What is the problem are those money inducements, trickery, abuse of an another religion etc. in a country where the majority religion is being abused. Believe me, unless one acknowledges this state of affairs, any minority community is in peril over the long term. I am a secularist and even I think that you seem to obfuscate this truth on the ground. And you do not seem to understand the real emotion and the thought process of Hindus on this.

6) We are treating you well as a guest (a non Hindu). But unfortunately you are not observing the good conduct of a guest. This is because, despite your avowed 'open mindedness' you are actually 'close minded' and an avowed Christian wedded to the notion that 'JC was the only sinless person in this world and he is a superstar'. Fine if you think so, but please, do not portray yourself as a person with 'open mind' who has no biases against other religions.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Dear Mr.Sapr 333,
Hindus believe Bagavath Geetha and Lord Krishna's teachings. We belive his words that ` He can take an avatar in any form, in any place and at any time'. In one of the lectures, Late Sri Chinmayananda ji, said Lord Krishna can take the form Jesus Christ, Allah or any other form.

Hindus are the most liberal community in the whole world and are willing to accept other faiths also whole heartedly.

Ramana Maharishi has advised his foreign devotees to follow their faith and never attempted to convert anybody. Infact Ramana started his journey with `Who Am I' question. Can you show any other religion permit its followers to ask such questions.

Swamy Vivekananda propagated universal brotherhood. Why don't you quote from his teachings instead of Kancha Illaya

Even today some of us in these forums are questioning the administration and misdeeds of some Hindu Religious institutions.

You must have seen within the TB community, there are divergent views and this forum is encouraging healthy discussions. There are non-believers in some of the TB practices in this forum itself and their views are liberally published. There are people who want reforms in some of the practices which are also very much heard.

Now I understand that even people who are not belonging to TB community are allowed to register and express their views in these forums. Very good. However such people should have self discipline and should not offend the feelings of the members for which this forum has been created. Can you walk into a Church and say that Jesus is not God? If you accept Kancha Illaya's views, no problem, you have liberty to propagate his views in the appropriate forums meant for it, but not at this forum