Reason for Conversion to Islam/Christianity ?

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to Anandb thankyou for the linkvijayavani.com.S.R.K.

 

[sapr333]

Shri.Hari,

Im not going in details to debate how a law can't control one's personal faith et all, but, wanna drive the point, that Indian Law makers are definitely not in favour of any of your points. Verdicts also infers that, majority of the Indians dont feel the way like you do. So we can only talk loud and whine about, but cant act, because these points are beyond practicaly and reality, though its possible in Islamic countries.

1)What BJP could do, when in Power?

2) The so called Anti-coversion politicians has to bite-the-dust in the recent elections

3) Even J.J has to withdraw her anti-conversion law.

4) And these kind of laws are existing, only in the Islamic gulf countries, but not in developed and developing nations.



Is there anyway, by which you can make the law makers to enact such laws, in our Indian Democratic set up? I would seek, some suggestions regarding this..


In my view,religion is a personal choice, and one can't keep it for your head-count or protection of flocks. Its a conviction within one's heart and cannot ask one to go to a magistrate to register and get a certificate for my change of heart? One can even change his 'girl-friend' in his heart, but can that be documented and certified by a magistrate? Can any number of law and rule be able to control debauchery?



>>>Discourage continuation of any benefits to those who have converted that would accrue to them from any residual identities from their former faith.>>> They should also be required to change all their personal markers (name etc..) to that of their new adopted faith. No more Christian Anand Mahadevans or Raghavendra Lawrences.>>

As said earlier, early 60's the sang parivars main complaint over christians is about their affinity to western culture/dress/and English names..Shiv Sena wanted non-hindus to have Hindu/Indian names. Now that, they have more integrated with the mainland culture, its seems you have a problem again... I mean, you are taking a U-turn asking them not to use Indian-hindu identity and culture..

 

[sapr333]

To Hari and sapr, This figure is the latest based upon a election for a Big Church here.

Shri.esarkey,

still Im not clear with this data. May be you are living within a christian belt..

If not, how much was their population 20 or 30 years ago, to reach this 98% today..

 

[RVR]

Religion and faith are personal affairs. I fully endorse Sapr333's views that conversion cannot be stopped through legislation. Gnana Sambandar fought and defeated jainism purely through his talent. He reconverted Pandiya king back to Hindu fold with the blessings of Lord Shiva. Both Buddhism and Jainism is marginalised today purely by the hard work our great saints of the past.

Today Christians offer education and health services to their followers. Muslims offer jobs in gulf for their new converts. If Hindus wants to stop this, let the so called self appointed protectors of Hinduism offer the same benefits to the poor and needy.

 

[hariharan1972]

Im not going in details to debate how a law can't control one's personal faith et all,

Neither am i interested in telling you about the illegality of insinuating other faiths

but, wanna drive the point, that Indian Law makers are definitely not in favour of any of your points.

Because Indian law makers are pussillanimous. But my ideas are mine and not necessarily am i desperate for any sanctimonious evaluation.

You asked me, so i told you.

Verdicts also infers that, majority of the Indians dont feel the way like you do.

Boy, am i glad that you know the "majority" like the back of your hand.

So we can only talk loud and whine about, but cant act, because these points are beyond practicaly and reality, though its possible in Islamic countries.

Whine ? Me ? Ha ha !

Have you ever thought why proselytization is non-existent in Islamic countries ?

1)What BJP could do, when in Power?

2) The so called Anti-coversion politicians has to bite-the-dust in the recent elections

3) Even J.J has to withdraw her anti-conversion law.

Why the reference to BJP ? I never mentioned it. And BJP is no less power hungry than any other political party so, dont make references to them.

The bottom line in India is that unless you are anti-Hindu, you cannot be secular. Period.

4) And these kind of laws are existing, only in the Islamic gulf countries, but not in developed and developing nations.

Dont we know how "developed" the African continent is after Christianization ?

Is there anyway, by which you can make the law makers to enact such laws, in our Indian Democratic set up? I would seek, some suggestions regarding this..

Like i said, i am not interested in getting these laws passed. So please stop feigning

In my view,religion is a personal choice, and one can't keep it for your head-count or protection of flocks. Its a conviction within one's heart and cannot ask one to go to a magistrate to register and get a certificate for my change of heart?

You should possibly tell this to the Church that you belong to and let this forum know, what they feel about this.

Can any number of law and rule be able to control debauchery?

No ! But is that an excuse to not have a law at all ?

Now that, they have more integrated with the mainland culture, its seems you have a problem again... I mean, you are taking a U-turn asking them not to use Indian-hindu identity and culture..

I have a problem with the fradulent methods of the Christian missionaries. Nothing more.

Your sophistry can hardly convince me into believing that the missionaries' methods are otherwise.

 

[anandb]

Dear SRK

To Hari and sapr, This figure is the latest based upon a election for a Big Church here.ToTal Population of my area is 21,389.(last Ward Election) the Church said their membership 20thousand plus and that theypuchased 23thousand water Bottles,and cooldrinks. My figure is corret.More over In our area All this christions will give money to do all type of Pujas in Hindu Small gods Temples. To Stop Conversions, Firest we must unite all Tamil speaking Hindu's to bring under one Umperla.No deviation from Hindu faith.Equal status to All Hindu(no Caste Basis). s.r.k

This is quite revealing. I have always believed that by these inculturation techniques Christianity is actually diluting its core beliefs. If this is true in the end you create a hotch potch of a religion which is neither Christian or Hindu.

 

[sapr333]

I think the whole concept of "evaluating a faith" is outlandish.
I am not keen on "amalgamation" but certainly i am against "acquisition".

Shri.Hari,

I choose my girl friend, after evaluating her, not because my father has told me to love her.

I carefully choose my would-be after evaluating all her aspects of Love,education,beauty etc etc.

I buy my GPS phone, after thoroughly evaluating all its road-map features..

If you agree, that, All religions are striving to attempt to find a Road map to God, one should also have the right in evaluating and choosing the right path (route) based upon his taste,choice and conviction.. I dont find anything wrong evaluating it.. And one dont need follow any CMMI/B.S/ASTM norms to do so..One dont need to dial 'Bureau Veritas' to do this evaluation.. Its all about one, oneself and one'sr own personal convictions.

Above all, if you take this stand,and believe in this, you will really feel power in you to promote and proclaim the greatness of hinduism all across the country. Or else, 'you be mine' and 'I be myself' approach, will only let others encroach on you, which is indeed a human nature..

 

[hariharan1972]

I choose my girl friend, after evaluating her, not because my father has told me to love her.

I suppose you would also not want to leave your girl friend because your friend finds her obnoxious.

I carefully choose my would-be after evaluating all her aspects of Love,education,beauty etc etc.

True. But you wouldnt, I suppose, choose your would-be based on a "supposed fact" that the other girls of that area are not loveable or educated or not beautiful.

I buy my GPS phone, after thoroughly evaluating all its road-map features..

True. But I suppose you wouldnt choose a GPS because someone says the other GPS only has the "road to hell".

If you agree, that, All religions are striving to attempt to find a Road map to God, one should also have the right in evaluating and choosing the right path (route) based upon his taste,choice and conviction.. I dont find anything wrong evaluating it.. And one dont need follow any CMMI/B.S/ASTM norms to do so.. Its all about our own personal convictions.

If you do believe in this, then I am tempted to expect a disapproval from you regarding the nefarious methods of many of the missionaires. But i dont see it coming. And i know why.

Above all, if you take this stand,and believe in this, you will really feel power in you to promote and proclaim the greatness of hinduism all across the country. Or else, 'you be mine' and 'I be myself' approach, will only let others encroach on you, which is indeed a human nature..

I cant laugh more, so i seriously think you should stop your act. I dont want to "promote and proclaim the greatness of hinduism" but just want to make on record the fact that the slurs that are cast on Hinduism by the missionaries are unfair and uncalled for.

If i dont start "selling Hinduism", you dont consider it inappropriate that someone can castigate it unfairly. This is akin to saying unless i claim my entitlement to live, someone can murder me and get away with it.

This must be some idea of "human nature" which i havent heard of before. So i should thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[hariharan1972]

If you agree, that, All religions are striving to attempt to find a Road map to God, one should also have the right in evaluating and choosing the right path (route) based upon his taste,choice and conviction.. I dont find anything wrong evaluating it..

Please stop misquoting.

You reserved the right for the christian missionary to "evaluate" hinduism which i contested.

I am not against anyone personally evaluating his/her faith and embracing the faith of his / her choice.

The question really is, should the christian missionaries help a hindu "evaluate his faith" by telling him that his goddesses are prostitutes ?

Answer me without obfuscation.

 

[sapr333]

Have you ever thought why proselytization is non-existent in Islamic countries ?>>I have a problem with the fradulent methods of the Christian missionaries. Nothing more.

But, have you ever pondered, why the developed nations openly/freely allow the moslems to freely convert the Christians? Its because, respect for religious freedom is the most important thing, and fundamental right, which the modern world is marching towards. Hope you and I dont wish to drive India to follow the Arab-standards.

Secondly, fradulent methods is very well condemned and covered under Indian law. Any such activity could be reported to the nearest police station, and I havent read any such complaints poping up in morning news paper..In a country where an FIR is filed for even Penicil-eraser thefts, Im sure this could not have gone un-noticed..

The problem here is, we failed to understand the core issue /psyche behind conversion. And as usual, one is very much content with making some political statements like Rice Christians/Foreign money/Proselityzation/Missionary etc etc.. Matter of fact,they are not the actual reasons.. Pls ponder over it!!



PS: Pls ref #34, and come clear where/how I have misquoted you..I would suggest you to elaborate that post please. Thanks in advance

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH, seeking your outlook on this data.

1) Kerala/Goa which ranks top in social index like Literacy/Percapita/women empowerment/health care also ranks high in Christian population.

2) Indian Christians and Jains ranks top in Literacy,percapita income and job participation (Census data)

3) In 50 years south korea became top 10 in global economy and in the same span became a Christian majority country too..

Here, I'm finding difficult to relate poverty & illiteracy, to the point you are claiming about cheating pastors.

Sapr,

I was primarily referring to karnataka, andhra and the north of india reg poverty and conversions.

1) Kerala and tamilnadu are high in literacy. In goa, conversions happened by literal butchering in the past, the current generation has forgotten it. The numbers were achieved by force. In kerala i belive christianity survived due to nativization tactics (tying mangalsutra instead of exchanging rings by some denominations, etc) and in tamilnad, christiantiy is yet to make a big dent, though it has been helped in its cause by so-called rationalists and kazhagam guys in a very huge way.

2) In the case of jains, i credit it to their sheer ability, talent and extraordinary entrepreneurial skills. In the case of indian christians, they have been helped by funds and networking.

3) Are you saying christianity helped south korea's economy? south korea needs the us of a to help handle north korea, so it makes sense for them to establish very many trade ties and fantastic diplomatic relation with the us, christianity just got thrown in for good measure as a common ground. It has been common tradition in history for warrior groups and slaves to convert to the religion of the victor or master for protection.

As reagards missionaries who convert by fraudulent means, by purposefully defiling and vandalizing hindu scriptures, gods and goddesses, sorry, they have no place in the indian heartland.

Right now its money that blinds many an eye. But its not before long, they shall open.

 

[hariharan1972]

But, have you ever pondered, why the developed nations openly/freely allow the moslems to freely convert the Christians? Its because, respect for religious freedom is the most important thing, and fundamental right, which the modern world is marching towards. Hope you and I dont wish to drive India to follow the Arab-standards.

It is because the influence of the Church is waning in the developed countries.

Along with respect for religious freedom, respect for religion has to be fundamental. Without the latter the former has no meaning.

You cant respect a Hindu's right to be a Hindu without respecting Hinduism even if you disagree with every single tenet of Hinduism.

I dont know what you wish for so cant really get slotted along with you.

Secondly, fradulent methods is very well condemned and covered under Indian law. Any such activity could be reported to the nearest police station, and I havent read any such complaints poping up in morning news paper..In a country where an FIR is filed for even Penicil-eraser thefts, Im sure this could not have gone un-noticed..

Obfuscation, yet again.

So you are certain that because it has not been reported, all the conversions are genuine.

I am appalled that you can think that others can be so naive.

Get this straight - No police station in India would ever register a FIR against a missionary for the fear of infuriating the political bosses.

It does not however take away the fact that most conversions are done by fradulent means.

The problem here is, we failed to understand the core issue /psyche behind conversion. And as usual, one is very much content with making some political statements like Rice Christians/Foreign money/Proselityzation/Missionary etc etc.. Matter of fact,they are not the actual reasons.. Pls ponder over it!!

It is a waste of time to debate with you, so you may continue to believe what you want to believe.

But you cannot, make me believe, what you want me to believe.

Amen !

PS: Pls ref #34, and come clear where/how I have misquoted you..I would suggest you to elaborate that post please. Thanks in advance

Ha Ha !

 

[hariharan1972]

sapr333,

i also see that direct questions requiring you to answer does inconvenience you.

either by choice or design !!!!

 

[RVR]

Muslims ruled us for few hundred years. Christians ruled us for few hundred years. But still India continues to be predominently hindu majority.

Even though western world is predominently christian, people don't have any deep faith. Even in India, only Churches are forcing them to attend sunday masses. Islam is a deep rooted religion and followers are greatly attached to their religion.

Inspite of conversion attempts, christianity is not gaining popularity and no body needs to bother about it

 

[happyhindu]

This is quite revealing. I have always believed that by these inculturation techniques Christianity is actually diluting its core beliefs. If this is true in the end you create a hotch potch of a religion which is neither Christian or Hindu.

Christianity really has nothing to call its own, it copies a hell lot and yet propagtes itself as some original beleif system. Has even managed to accomodate some pigdin form of philosophy to sell iteself as a "religion".

As long as missionaries continue to receive funds from overseas, the local guys will do anything to nativize, even make a hotch-potch new religion, still call it christianity and probably yet an original one at that (won't be surprised if they interpret the vedas as christian scriptures someday).

Forget the sangh parivar, ridiculous brigades, senas or armies, this whole nativization process is ridiculous actually. Obviously, christianity has no substance to stand on its own, so they need that copying, incorporating, nativising, etc (since selling, hawking, door to door marketing of its 'wares' called 'salvation' and 'batizement' is what it all depends upon).

 

[sapr333]

Sapr,
I was primarily referring to karnataka, andhra and the north of india reg poverty and conversions.
.

Dear HH,

First of all you should answer me this basic question.. Do you think the great ancient 5000 year old traditions could be bought over,for few cups of rice.. if so, I have a question to revert, is that so cheap, it could be bought for money..Even if, do you think, we Indians dont have a good heart to offer few kilos of rice, to the neighbour who is reeling under hunger, for his daily bread... If so, why should I follow that cruel tradition,which doesnt encourage Good Samaritans, and watch some one stuggle for few bags of rice and in turn get converted and comfortable to be called by you and me as 'Those Rice christians'???.. Apologize, Im just being rude here,with my words..

your point on previous post is, that people follow J.C because of their poverty and dalitism.. But then, i pointed out back saying, these were are all not the true facts, when analysing human-index facts , in line with our national census data..What I mean to say is, the average human-index of a christian-Indian is far better than an average Indian moslem or hindu.By analysing the data, I feel, that they were not cheated by the Pastors, as someone claimed here..

Instead of seriously working on this facts, with brain storming session,and investigate the real issues behind,you went on to talk about Karnataka and Hyderabad.. Why not.... they may also reach to the top another few decades after, like how I explained about South Korea ?

Anyways, in my view, I dont want to compare god and religion in terms of money and social index..Its all about conviction.. Just because it was pointed out that Christians were cheated by missionaries, I brought this point out..

The moral of the story is, its all about conviction.. As Beatles sang .. Cant buy my love......money cant buy my love...I would add, money cant buy my love to God..Thankfully, we are all talking about the same God.

 

[sapr333]

As long as missionaries continue to receive funds from overseas, the local guys will do anything to nativize, even make a hotch-potch new religion, still call it christianity and probably yet an original one at that

Lemme ask you a simple question.. How may of us (Good Samaritans) pressed the 'Donate button and swiped our credit card asking Praveen to spend this money for a good cause, through paypal?

We are yet to come to reality.. Foreign funds & Missionaries!!! Huh.. Most of the forum members claim that they accomplished their fortunes by working in foreign countries.. How many 'Good samaritans' helped with few kilos of rice on par with a rice-missionary.. Im sure missionaries are not funded by U.N or World Bank loans.. Its all someone, out there in that foreign land ( like our own folks who migrated), with a ' Good Samaritan' heart/cause to donate his own hard earned penny for the needy, to remove hunger of a fellow human being!!

 

[RVR]

I feel christians have an inferiority complex. Let them follow their religion and allow other people to follow their faith. Why should they try to convince others that only christ is God. If there is a God, he can take any form, any time and at place. He need not take the form of JC alone.

Infront of other religions, they behave in a cheap manner

 

[sapr333]

I feel christians have an inferiority complex.

Infront of other religions, they behave in a cheap manner

Shri. Venkataramani, that seems to be an interesting point to ponder.. But then you need to clarify this..

1) inferiority complex is a comparative term.. So you need to explain, that, infront of whoom they were feeling themselves to be inferior?
George bush feeling inferior infront of Advani? or all Christians feeling inferior infront of Moslems, Jains,Buddhists... etc.. Could you be bit specific?

Im not sure if you got mixed up with the word 'being humble' to being inferior'


2)Again, Christians behaving in a cheap manner infront of other religions... Could you please narrate with some instances and justify whats that of being cheap... Thanks.

 

[RVR]

Only christians try to convert others to their religion. Are we trying to convert anybody to Hinduism. We know very well Hinduism is not created by any single individual and cannot be destroyed by any body. We are proud of our religion and at the same time encourage other religions for peaceful co-existance. But why christians alone try to convince others christ is the only God. Because they have some inferiority complex.

Christians issued pamphlets to those who are standing in a big Q to see Lord Balaji at Tirupathi. Is it not a cheap behavior? Andhra Government has banned issue of such pamphlets within certain KM radius of important places of worship.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

Dear HH,

First of all you should answer me this basic question.. Do you think the great ancient 5000 year old traditions could be bought over,for few cups of rice.. if so, I have a question to revert, is that so cheap, it could be bought for money..Even if, do you think, we Indians dont have a good heart to offer few kilos of rice, to the neighbour who is reeling under hunger, for his daily bread... If so, why should I follow that cruel tradition,which doesnt encourage Good Samaritans, and watch some one stuggle for few bags of rice and in turn get converted and comfortable to be called by you and me as 'Those Rice christians'???.. Apologize, Im just being rude here,with my words..

No sir you are not being rude. You are speaking of ground reality. I agree with you wholeheartedly that poverty is main reason for many a thing. However, i do not understand whatever is the 'cruel tradition' that you are speaking of...I do not agree that Indians do not have a good heart to offer a few kilos of rice to the needy neighbour. Barring politicians, and a certain creed of selfish individuals, i have come across many a person doing his part, either as physical work with an organisation like cry or contributing financially whatever he can in his capacity. The whole point is india has too huge a population and yes, it is poor.


your point on previous post is, that people follow J.C because of their poverty and dalitism.. But then, i pointed out back saying, these were are all not the true facts, when analysing human-index facts , in line with our national census data..What I mean to say is, the average human-index of a christian-Indian is far better than an average Indian moslem or hindu.By analysing the data, I feel, that they were not cheated by the Pastors, as someone claimed here..

Barring few ppl who do really convert of faith, i do think poverty motivates ppl to convert. Obviously if a christian recieves funds, his position in life will be far better than an average indian battling poverty. This however, does not mean conversions happen due to fraudulent practices alone, it also happens because it is in the human nature of any man to go for something that can help him make a better life. I do belive poverty or better biz prospects and better networking do make a man convert.


Instead of seriously working on this facts, with brain storming session,and investigate the real issues behind,you went on to talk about Karnataka and Hyderabad.. Why not.... they may also reach to the top another few decades after, like how I explained about South Korea ?

Sapr, i have nothing to say if you wish to think that conversions happen out of faith only. There is no smoke without fire. I myself have met monks who have been told by marginalized ppl 'hamen dokha diya' meaning they got cheated by missionaries who offered them some money and later did nothing to help them financially or otherwise when they were ostracized by other villagers (needless to say in many cases the money they got for conversion was actually spent on liquor and in fact they felt 'cheated' because they were not getting a continuous supply of money from the missionaries). In such cases, the converts (not the missionaries) and their sloth and greed were the culprits. And i think i too explained my stance about South Korea fairly ok.

Anyways, in my view, I dont want to compare god and religion in terms of money and social index..Its all about conviction.. Just because it was pointed out that Christians were cheated by missionaries, I brought this point out..

The moral of the story is, its all about conviction.. As Beatles sang .. Cant buy my love......money cant buy my love...I would add, money cant buy my love to God..Thankfully, we are all talking about the same God.

Sapr, if you have noticed, hindus are not considering themselves 'exclusive' but it is christianity that claims it is the 'only' path to heaven. Hindus think all are talking about the same god, and Jesus is as much a diety as Ram or Krishna. However, it is christians who do not seem to share the common-ness, since god to them cannot be anyone else apart from Jesus.

Lemme ask you a simple question.. How may of us (Good Samaritans) pressed the 'Donate button and swiped our credit card asking Praveen to spend this money for a good cause, through paypal?

Sapr, am not inclined to speak about contributions. Am not rich, but we are fairly content in life and are confident of coursing thru life fairly well. I actually do not need to go to work. But i do, since i made commitments and have never depended upon anyone to be given money (even as a teenager i did not depend on my parents). I value my financial freedom bcoz it helps me spend money the way i wish to.

We are yet to come to reality.. Foreign funds & Missionaries!!! Huh.. Most of the forum members claim that they accomplished their fortunes by working in foreign countries.. How many 'Good samaritans' helped with few kilos of rice on par with a rice-missionary.. Im sure missionaries are not funded by U.N or World Bank loans.. Its all someone, out there in that foreign land ( like our own folks who migrated), with a ' Good Samaritan' heart/cause to donate his own hard earned penny for the needy, to remove hunger of a fellow human being!!

Sapr, there are very many indians doing their part. Why only those who go overseas, those who live in india too do their small part. My mum lives on a pension (she too manages her finances seperate from dad and has the freedom to spend as she wishes) and she shares her income with an ashram and a temple that does regular annadanam. But ofcourse as individuals, there is only that much that each of us can do. A paltry bit actually. Nobody in their individual right can match the might of missionaries as regards funds. Only wish ppl like the ambanis, tatas, birlas, godrejs, etc did something for the needy.

 

[sapr333]

Only christians try to convert others to their religion. Are we trying to convert anybody to Hinduism..

Shri.Venkatramani,

Let me remind you this first.. You havent answered about your claim that' Christians have inferiority complex'..

And,Im insisting on that question, just to drive the point, that, are we are living content by making such bloated statements, like, inferiority complex, forced conversion, foreign money etc etc?

Now coming to the point about your statement,ie, Hindus dont convert others... Should I take it as positive moral or as a negative laid back selfish attitude?

In the ancient times, when sailing across the sea was banned, I wa wondering how Hinduism reached to the shores of Sumatra, Sri.Lanka, Java..Any act of Holy Ghost? I've been on a holiday to Ankorvat temple, and still i couldnt figure out how Hinduism would have spread there, if not, for some one tried to preach hinduism to those natives of that lonely nation or with some kings edict... Please do some reading about the spread of Hinduism amongst Sikkim tribals in the 18th century..

I can only conclude, that, the supposed to be the guardians of Hinduism and its scriputures failed to do their duty and proclaim hinduism, instead moved on, in their pursuit of worldly materials, in order to keep up with the modern trends.. And in the process, a substitute of intalling a good priestly system was also not maintained.. And now its caught up in the dilemma.. And to convince the crowd, one is forced to say, Hinduism doesnt preach or proclaim.. In my personal opinion, being handicapped is just covered in the name of ' Hinduism dont preach or convert"..

We fail to forget the good works done by Shri. Adi Shankara in walking acoss the country to proclaim it..We carefully forget the spread of hinduism by the kings across the sea's..What ISKON is doing?

And to cover up this inablity, we need a good scape goat.. And you call him as 'Christian missionary', a good imaginary enemy indeed..

Let me conclude this way... Lets say, I have found something good and great in Hinduism.. I find 'Sanatana Dharma' as the best appealing way for salvation.. say,I've found the secrets of good life in Hindu way of life..Now,if not for myself being selfish, whats stops me from proclaiming the greatness of hinduism across 7 seas.. Whats wrong , out of concern for my neighbour,if I proselytize him, and make him understand and follow and ENJOY himself the goodness of hinduism, and bail him out?..

Unless one is selfish, I think, each one's attitude of failing to proclaim hinduism, can only be attributed as, ones weakness..

 

[kunjuppu]

Folks,

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While I agree, that there issues larger in size than what this forum can accommodate, i wish to reiterate the mission of this forum, which i print below, and as a moderator, i am obliged to uphold.

i would recommend that the participants here tone down their tones, and try to appreciate the truths that get lost inbetween rhetoric and logic.

thank y'all for your cooperation. here re-printing the mission statement to jog your memory... thank you.

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[happyhindu]

Sapr,

this post was not to me, but thot i cud share something reg the foll things.

Shri.Venkatramani,

Now coming to the point about your statement,ie, Hindus dont convert others... Should I take it as positive moral or as a negative laid back selfish attitude?

hindus believe in letting each one live his own life as per his own faith. no its not selfishness at all.

yes it is positive in the fact that it does not infringe upon anyone's personal faith. while hindusim is about accepting all ways, christians and muslims on the other hand do not accept 'all ways', there is no concept of ekam satya in these religions.

In the ancient times, when sailing across the sea was banned, I wa wondering how Hinduism reached to the shores of Sumatra, Sri.Lanka, Java..Any act of Holy Ghost? I've been on a holiday to Ankorvat temple, and still i couldnt figure out how Hinduism would have spread there, if not, for some one tried to preach hinduism to those natives of that lonely nation or with some kings edict... Please do some reading about the spread of Hinduism amongst Sikkim tribals in the 18th century..

Hinduism is a wide spread set of beliefs, with very many schools, it is possible the southeast asians were hindu before buddism reached them.

True there were some debates by a few inspired vipras, they were intellectual in nature. What is to be noted is that there has never been proselytizing and hindus have never found the need to market religion. Marketing religion, i think is degrading to the religion.

Anyone was / is welcome to the hindu faith, if they so feel the need to be a part of it. And obviously, people either adopted hinduism or it was already present in their native spirit beliefs, nature beleifs, animist beliefs, etc (as is found in some of the native indonesian, thai, cambodian, etc cultures). Why, there is a korean link to india as well: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/South-Koreas-Ayodhya-connection/articleshow/847880.cms

I can only conclude, that, the supposed to be the guardians of Hinduism and its scriputures failed to do their duty and proclaim hinduism, instead moved on, in their pursuit of worldly materials, in order to keep up with the modern trends.. And in the process, a substitute of intalling a good priestly system was also not maintained.. And now its caught up in the dilemma.. And to convince the crowd, one is forced to say, Hinduism doesnt preach or proclaim.. In my personal opinion, being handicapped is just covered in the name of ' Hinduism dont preach or convert"..

Why do we need to proclaim any religion. It is personal faith. Why should a hindu try to convert anyone. If someone wants to belong to hinduism, he comes to the hindu faith himself.

Agreed the priestly class may have moved on to other professions, but there continue to be very many ashrams, monks, sages, yogis, who keep traditions going.

No sir we are not caught in any dilemma. We are only against abuse of our faith, just because someone wants to harvest numbers.

Am amused at your idea that if someone does not proclaim hinduism then it is some sorta weakness or selfishness. That kind of thinking probably comes from a missionary type of mentality perhaps.


We fail to forget the good works done by Shri. Adi Shankara in walking acoss the country to proclaim it..We carefully forget the spread of hinduism by the kings across the sea's..What ISKON is doing?

And to cover up this inablity, we need a good scape goat.. And you call him as 'Christian missionary', a good imaginary enemy indeed..

Let me conclude this way... Lets say, I have found something good and great in Hinduism.. I find 'Sanatana Dharma' as the best appealing way for salvation.. say,I've found the secrets of good life in Hindu way of life..Now,if not for myself being selfish, whats stops me from proclaiming the greatness of hinduism across 7 seas.. Whats wrong , out of concern for my neighbour,if I proselytize him, and make him understand and follow and ENJOY himself the goodness of hinduism, and bail him out?..

Unless one is selfish, I think, each one's attitude of failing to proclaim hinduism, can only be attributed as, ones weakness..

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapr333,

Your argument that there are no conversions based on inducements from the aggressive missionaries (especially the evangelists and to a lesser degree Catholics), flies in the face of reality. I can bring up and post here many a western church websites where the conversions are talked about as though it is a numbers game and a target to be acheived.

I am the first one to admit that Hinduism with respect to certain social aspects has some need for introspection and improvement. But that is for Hindus to address. I do not think that any one from any other religion has a say in it. By the way, while we are comparing religions (as you have done here), let me also say that other major religions have their own good share of problems that they need to address themselves.

By the way, your comparing missionary work as being 'non-selfish' masks one basic human value that any evangelism completely ignores. That is respect towards the culture/belief/religion of other people.

We have been touching these points on the 'Why....God' thread and as usual, you have not addressed my observations on some of the basic notions and assumptions that you have as a basis for such an argument. You conveniently abstain when the logic overwhelms your world view.

Let us call conversions for what they are:

1. Conversions based on personal change of faith occur at a very low rate all over the world in ALL religions (including Judaism and Hinduism).

2. Conversions in India occur mainly to Christianity based on inducements (money, education to the poor), efforts based on duplicity (bibles copying Hindu scriptures/spreading falsehood about Hindu Gods/Goddesses), attack on Hinduism in the guise of safeguarding human rights(Illiah Kanch and his ilk) and politics (head of a group of people, like a fisherman community opting for a religion based on vote politics and converting all his/her clan) happen not because of a true choice of a person based on religious conversion. If this is not true, there would not be any 'castes' in both Islam and Christianity in India. This alone tells me that the majority of the conversions are not based on a true adoption of another religion.

Regards,
KRS