QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

[nachi naga]

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every society in the world,have profiling.like races,religion,caste,nationality...etc when a human is checked for blood groups,there is a difference.the genes are different.the sizes of human anatomy is different.only sanathana dharma,gives humanity,a comprehensive study,of almost everything,in this universe.rishis sitting in india,wrote the color of mars or chevvai graham is red.how did they do it?those who knew brahman,got the brahma-vidya,told and wrote for us future generations,were all known as brahmins.some kings adopted this by birth theory while some kings adopted by way of living experiance of a brahmana by ritals,scriptural injunction,etc.methodology of ascertaining a brahmin,maybe various in nature,but what brahmin's provide for humanity is common worldover ie brahma-vidya.today all of us want comfort's in our life.when we travel,we would rather travel by a luxury car rather than a jatka vandi,and even before such vandis were invented,humanity walked.comfort loving,is the main criteria of living today,nobody really cares,as how you obtain such means,and brahmins are changing as much as possible to keep pace with developments in the world.yes,poor amongst us exist and there is now awareness to do good as a community within our community is well and roaring.caste in india,is the most important aspect of living for generation's to come.once caste is demolished,hinduism will be demolished.

 

[nachi naga]

Shri nachi,
Actualy the problem orginated when we, brahmins, started moving away from our lifestyle and purpose.

sapthajihva

when you write this,you are assuming brahmin's by birth theory,isn't t?so,you pick on the community who are called as brahmin's by birth
.

take for example,the vaishnavas of iskcon.most of the acharyas are whites (cauc-asian race) even their pronounciation of samnskritham slokas,will be jarring to us to hear.but,if you see the lifestyle that's been adopted,it's very much brahminical in nature.how are they able to do it?money is donated left right and center by donor's,and the acharyas have no worry about income to maintain the temple upkeep taxes salary vehicle maintenace etc.

whereas as community brahmin's,we are expected to attend our chores as grihasthas following a regimen.so rituals sastric sampradayic practices take a beating.

only a minority of us,have swerved away from rituals,sastras,sampradayas,but majority of us are still,doing what our ancestrors told us.but its dwindling no doubt in ,the community of birth brahmanas like gothram sanctified.

at least we are naamka vasta brahmanas.becoz i suspect,the new movement vaishnavas brought dis-repute to our dharma by abusing children in gurukulas,mis-appropriating funds by a select few...etc.

in the west,its becoming extremely popular for whites to embrace hinduism and call themselves as acharyas,gurus,enlightened master...etc

we also have indian version of brown men/women,who are new age religious societies,talking from rocket science micro-biology quantum mechanics to particle mind with a divine mix of our dharma.all these are brahmans too.some even claim they are lord krishna re-invented lordshiva re-invented goddess durga re-invented...etc

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir,

...Because of the caste system prevailing those days, Nandanar controlled himself from entering the temple of Lord Nataraja.

Thank you, so you agree, this oppressive system that prevented even the best among Nataraja's bhakthas from entering the temple, was prevailing centuries before the Muslims and the British came and messed the serene system.

It was the wish of Lord Nataraja which has come through the dreams of Nandanar as well as the priests, Nandanar entered the fire.

This is a cop out, just put the responsibility upon Lord Nataraja. According to Chekkizhar, it is the Brahmins who prepared the fire pit and lead Nandanar to it. It is Chekkizhar who says Nandanar's body was burnt and out came Nandanar with a Brahmin body with which he entered the temple and merged with the Lord.

It is all very convenient to put the responsibility upon Lord Nataraja.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.... a non-intelligent cause cannot bring about an intelligent effect.

Saptha, I don't think the above is self-evident. We have not fully defined what intelligence is, and there are problems with precisely defining it in a mutually agreeable way. There are many inanimate objects that nominally exhibit what we understand as intelligence. Once programmed, my alarm clock comes on automatically. This, for a primitive human, may look like intelligence. A future robot, like Data of Star Trek, may be indistinguishable from flesh and blood humans. So, intelligence may very well be a result of a set of instructions coded in the genes, a very non-intelligent medium.

You ask me what was the cause of the first unicellular life. Nobody knows for sure. Science has some theories to offer, but readily admits it remains a mystery. It is not logical to presume there must be an intelligent cause for this. You can do this only by appealing to religious dogma.

However, for your other questions about awareness and knowledge science is closer to fully understanding these concepts provide satisfactory answers than just assuming god did it. Awareness, the feeling of I, is very likely no more than just a state of brain activity. Survival instinct comes from our genes. The existence of different life forms has been fully explained by the theory of evolution. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

That being the case, there should be life forms materializing just like that, in thin air, without any prior cause. Does that happen?

Scientists do not claim life just appeared out of thin air, this is a red herring.

If it is the cause of all causes, then it is the cause for itself, isn't it??

Nice Saptha, now you are encircled by your own logic. This is the problem with saying god is the cause of all causes.


Dear sravna,

If the universe were created by God he was obviously operating outside the realm of space time and the question who created him would not arise.

That is a big IF isn't? If god exists outside space and time, what would that be, a different kind of space and time, unimaginable for us mere humans? Then, who created that unimaginable kind of space and time? You see, you are still not out of the problem of infinite regress.

You ask who created the big bang if that created the universe? Probably the natural physical forces falling into itself and creating an unsustainable singularity, the scientists say they are not sure. Is it fair for the religionists to jump into the breach and offer definitive answers based on Vedic dogma or any other dogma?

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR sir,



Thank you, so you agree, this oppressive system that prevented even the best among Nataraja's bhakthas from entering the temple, was prevailing centuries before the Muslims and the British came and messed the serene system.




This is a cop out, just put the responsibility upon Lord Nataraja. According to Chekkizhar, it is the Brahmins who prepared the fire pit and lead Nandanar to it. It is Chekkizhar who says Nandanar's body was burnt and out came Nandanar with a Brahmin body with which he entered the temple and merged with the Lord.

It is all very convenient to put the responsibility upon Lord Nataraja.

Cheers!

Prof Nara ji,

I don't want to comment on the system which was prevailing during Nandanar Period. But the system was definitely accommodative where a person born even from a the so called `Pulayar' caste to which Nandanar belongs can attain the Lotus feet of God.

After reading your posting, I went through Thiruthondar Puranam and its predecessor `Thiruthondar Thogai'திருத்தொண்டர் தொகை

திருத்தொண்டர் தொகை was composed by Sundaramoorthi Nayanar suppose to be in 9th Century AD. Sundarar is a brahmin by birth and he composed திருத்தொண்டர் தொகை with the blessings of Thiageswarar (Lord Shiva) at Tiruvarur.

Sundarar is considered as a friend of Lord Shiva. At Tiruvarur he use to cross `Devasiriya Mandapam' where lot of Sivan Adiyaars use to assemble regularly to see Lord Shiva. These adiyaars belong to all castes.Sivan Adiyaars complained to Lord Shiva that because of your friendship, Sundarar is ignoring them.

Lord Shiva told Sundarar that you have to pay respects to the Adiyaars first before seeing Him. Sundarar agreed and wanted to compose a song on Sivan Adiyaars but told Lord Shiva that he didn't know how to start with. Lord Shiva Himself suggested the first line `தில்லை வாழ் அந்தணர் தம் அடியாற்குமஅடியேன்'. In that composition itself, Sundarar in stanza 395 says ` செம்மையே திருநாளைபோவார்கும் அடியேன்'

It only shows Sundarar in spite of being a brahmin pays his respects to Nandanar belonging to Pulayar caste.

At the lotus feet of God, caste disappears.

I wish everybody turns to Bakthi Marga so that caste will disappear just like that.

Any amount of talk by Dravidian movement will not remove caste system.

All the best

 

[sravna]

Nara Ji,

When I say that God was operating ouside the realm
of spacetime, I don't imply that there is another
unimaginable spacetime outside it. It is just that the
physical universe is a constrained reality transcending
of which you get into a reality unconstrained by space
and time. Obviously when space and time are
transcended you do not ask questions "when" or "who"
as a timeless entity by definition always existed and will
continue to exist forever. You may not be able to
comprehend that truth with an analytical approach and
that was not also how the rishis comprehended this
reality. The grasp of that whole reality is to see through
space and time and get into the deep reality.

The fact that we are unique among all the species on
earth is mainly because of our advanced mental faculty
which helps us dig into deeper realities and enable us
to make predictions. The ability to make such predictions
is itself a mastery over space and time though in a limited
way.

As the mind evolves it is able to grasp more holistically as
it is able to dig deeper and one may conclude that a
totally evolved mind totally sees through the veneer of
physical reality.

 

[kunjuppu]

I wish everybody turns to Bakthi Marga so that caste will disappear just like that.

Any amount of talk by Dravidian movement will not remove caste system.

All the best

RVR,

very profound statement indeed.

whatever may be the reason, caste is embedded deeply in the hindus of india, as a primary identity, i think. no amount of talking will remove this, i feel.

also, i have come to realize, that inspite of measures to eradicate the evil of it, which might have succeeded partly, because the economic aspects of it may have been lessened, but the social divisions remain deep and disturbingly embedded to the point of fission within us.

the TBs in this forum, primarily i found look upto the vedic north for answers to scriptures or race. not so, i think, the rest of the tamil tribes. the TBs, i think, we will more easily accept a north indian to our fold as a bride or groom, than a fellow other tamil tribe.

surprisingly, i have not seen any member of my family married to other south indian brahmins, but many have married north indians of brahmin, banya, rajput or sikh groups. they have married tamil muslims or christians of kerala, but not many other tamil castes.

so, i have come to the conclusion, that caste and casteism is a complex part of our psychic dna, and no amount of rhetoric will annhiliate for a long time to come.

coming to the thread and its purported justification of casteism as practised by ancient vedic groups, even i think, periyar would have no problem with it. all that happened long ago.

it is what is happening in the recent 100 years, with the overwhelming arrogant attitude of the tamil brahmins over their superiority primarily due to their upward mobility due to english education.

i do not think that anyone in this forum, has the werewithal to practise that vedic type of varnashrama today. the society will simply not tolerate it. so no amount of calling to heed the ancient muezzins, will convince the youngsters of today to return to the past.

i think again, that no one in their right mind will want to return to that past. we are all beneficiaries of modern technologies and entrepreneurships. the past 200 years of primary european innovation has provided us with longevity of a nature unknown except again perhaps in the proverbial vedic age.

slicing and dicing of ancient thought to suit modern prejudices is a fun task. i do revel at the sight of so many eruditionaries nitpicking their way to one upmanship. hopefully this is done with a view to enjoying the game, rather than an eye to the result.

for in the end, the reality of what we are, and how we are viewed in tamil nadu, is but a shower of ice cold water to a fevered body - shocking, invigorating, reduce the fever temporarily, and back to the grind of living under the grudge of a unbending majority. perhaps living under the mughals was the same, except it was applied to all hindus, not just brahmins alone.

in maybe 100 years, what would our community look like? i do not know. i hear the calls to shun reforms and return to methusaleh, in an earnest few but i have a gut feeling that these are ignored.

recently i met a sundaram from indonesia. except for the tamil name, there was nothing tamil about him. so too, may be one day, we will have ramakrishnans and doraiswamys, in name a tamil, and someone else otherwise.

each one of us, who leave india, can expect if not the next generation, the one after that, to marry outside the caste or religion. even within india, or even more in tamil nadu, the extent of marriage outside the caste or religion amazes me, knowing india and its prejudices.

so in the overall context, to talk of justifying an ancient varna system as was practised in an ancient bharata varsha, is as useful as locking the door after all the donkeys have been rifled.

but it is all fun and exciting, anyways. i think so.

perhaps shashi tharoor was right when he said that india was not an underdevloped country, but in the context of its history and cultural heritage, a highly developed one in an advanced state of decay.

thank you.

 

[nachi naga]

frankly,it's not all amusing to read,that Indian's are a decaying lot whether malignant or advanced.such shooting in your leg by yourself,is mainly a pastime,which many tambrahms who migrated from India,and lead a closeted life in borders beyond us.what's India undergoing is a tremendous transitional state of comfort and luxury,which all of us are vying with one another to attain.religious belief's are still a private domain,so caste is more a political one upmanship to regain power or hold on to it at any cost.its pathetic to see dravidian parties aligning either with commies or capitalists for their very survival,and caste is a readymade tool,for such nonsensical leaders,who are ruining India from within.all media outlets are controlled by foreign participants,who owe allegiance to christanity,socialists,capitalists,islam barring a few national media.its unfortunate,we ourselves will divide and fall,by this constant mis-understanding of caste.

 

[saidevo]

namaste everyone.

Here is what Nara has not told in his post no.96 about the NandanAr episode:
(English Translations based on 'vyAkhyAna vittagar' Pulavar S.Chandar's prose book on PeriyapurANam, published by Sakuntalai Nilayam, Chennai-600001)

• Nara has only quoted the first two lines of verse 1073, the part where NaTarAja asks NandanAr to enter the fire so he becomes a dvija. Here is the full verse:

1073 இப் பிறவி போய் நீங்க எரியினிடை நீ மூழ்கி
முப்புரி னூல் மார்பர் உடன் முன் அணைவாய் என மொழிந்து
அப் பரிசே தில்லைவாழ் அந்தணர்க்கும் எரி அமைக்க
மெய்ப்பொருள் ஆனார் அருளி அம்பலத்தே மேவினார்

1073 ip piRavi pOy ~nI~gga eriyiniDai ~nI mUzhgi
muppuri nUl mArbar uDan mun aNaivAy ena mozhi~ndu
ap parichE thillaivAzh a~ndaNarkkum eri amaikka
meypporuL AnAr aruLi ambalaththE mEvinAr

"PerumAn who dances in the Ambalam, who thought to remove NandanAr's sorrow, with a smile came in NandanAr's dream, and said, 'ThoNDanE--O my servant! In order that your lowly birth ends, you get yourself immersed in the fire and then come before me along with the ThillaivAzh brahmins.'

"Ponnambalap perumAn rose in blessing in the dreams of the ThillaivAz brahmins also, and ordered them to make the fire ready for NandanAr to enter into."

This verse clearly states that NaTarAja appeared in the dreams of both NandanAr and the brahmins, instructing them about the fire ceremony.

*****

• Our friend Nara then conveniently jumps to verse 1076, in his attempt to instigate the brahmins for burning a great devotee of Shiva (just because he belonged to a low caste). What happened in the verses in between that Nara has omitted to tell us about?

1074 தம் பெருமான் பணிகேட்ட தவ மறையோர் எள்ளாரும்
அம்பலவர் திருவாயின் முன்பு அச்சமுடன் ஏண்டி
எம்பெருமான் அருள்செய்த பணி செய்வோம் என்று ஏத்தித்
தம் பரிவு பெருக வரும் திருத் தொண்டர்பால் சார்ந்தார்

1074 tham perumAn paNikETTa thava maRaiyOr eLLArum
ambalavar thiruvAyin munbu achchamuDan ENDi
emperumAn aruLseydha paNi seyvOm enRu Eththith
tham parivu peruga varum thiruth thoNDarpAl sAr~ndhAr

"Thillai brahmins were fearful about the prospect of burning up an aDiyAr--devotee. Still they prepared the fire with the decision that they must complete the task ordained to them by Iraivan--God."

The phrases eLLArum--all of them without exception, and achchamuDan INDi--approaching with fear in their hearts, further strengthen the nature of the incident that it took place by Shiva's will and not at the instigation of the brahmins. The truth was that everyone of the brahmins were apprehensive of critically abusing a great devotee of Shiva.

*****

1075 ஐயரே அம்பலவர் அருளால் இப்பொழுது அணைந்தோம்
வெய்ய அழல் அமைத்து உமக்குத் தரவேண்டி என விளம்ப
நையும் மனத் திருத்தொண்டர் னான் உய்ந்தேன் எனத் தொழுதார்
தெய்வ மறை முனிவர்களும் தீ அமைத்தபடி மொழிந்தார்

1075 aiyarE ambalavar aruLAl ippozhudhu aNai~ndhOm
veyya azhal amaiththu umakkuth tharavENDi ena viLamba
~naiyum manath thiruththoNDar nAn uy~ndhEn enath thozhudhAr
deyva maRai munivargaLum thI amaiththapaDi mozhi~ndhAr

"'ayyarE--O great man! Since it is ordained by AmbalavANar--Shiva, thinking that we should not disobey it, preparing a fire pit for you, we have come here.' With these words, the Thillai brahmins came and stood before NandanAr, who bowed to them, 'I have been saved from this birth)!'"

Let us keenly note that SEkkizhAr says that the ThillaivAzh brahmins addressed NandanAr as 'ayyarE!' An aiyar calling a low-caste great devotee of Shiva 'aiyar'! The term 'aiyar' is a form of respect for the term 'aiyan' which means 'a man of dignity and respectability'.

*****

1076 மறையவர்கள் மொழிந்து அதன்பின் தென்திசையின் மதில்புறத்துப்
பிறை உரிஞ்சும் திருவாயில் முன்பாக பிஞ்ஞகர் தம்
னிறை அருளால் மறையவர்கள் அமைத்த குழி எய்தி
இறையவர் தாள் மனம்கொண்டே எரிசூழ வலம்கொண்டார்

1076 maRaiyavargaL mozhi~ndhu adhanpin thendhisaiyin madhilpuRaththup
piRai uri~jcum thiruvAyil munbAga pi~j~jakar tham
niRai aruLAl maRaiyavargaL amaiththa kuzhi eydhi
iRaiyavar thAL manamkoNDE ericUzha valamkoNDAr

"The fire was prepared in front of the sacred south entrance. NandanAr came round the fire clockwise. He joined his palms raising both his hands high over his head. Thinking about the sacred feet of Ponnambalavan--Shiva, he entered the fire pit."

SEkkizhAr uses the term 'பிஞ்ஞகர்--pinjnjakar' as an epithet of Shiva. Members may kindly explain what this term means.

Let me give just my translation of the verses further so as to keep this post short.

1077. The moment he entered the fire, thinking of Shiva's kazhal--feet, with raised hands and joined palms, at the fire his false body that was mAyappoythagai--bondage of mAyA disappeared and he took the form of a sacred mAmuni--great ascetic. He came out of the fire, with a sacred thread on his chest and with matted locks of hair.

1078. NandanAr looked like the very NAnmukhan--BrahmA, who sits on a red lotus flower. There arose the great sound of dundubhi--great kettledrum. Devas rejoiced with loud expressions from their abode in the skies and showered white mandAra flowers.

1079-1082. The ThillaivAzh brahmins, who are tiruvuDaya--possessed with divinity, bowed to NandanAr, joining their palms. ... Worshipping the gopuram--tower, of the temple, NandanAr went along with the ThillaivAzh brahmins and entered Shiva's sanctum, where he merged with Shiva in the form of light. The awe-struck brahmins worshipped the arumunivar--a rare saint. I shall thus narrate the story of the TirukkuRipputh thoNDar, who bathed in the fire to give his flawed body, rose with a divine frame and reached the feet of Ambalavar.

*****

If anything, SEkkizhAr's story of NandAnAr is a lofty and sacred narration that allegoriacally teaches a devotee to burn up their desireful and dirty bodies in the yajna--fire sacrifice, of meditation and devotion towards Shiva, who will take care of their liberation, irrespective of their position in life. Even as a true historical event, the ThillaivAzh brahmins in SEkkizhAr's narration are not the people who sought to oppress low-caste people, especially a great devotee of Shiva.

It is a sad state of affairs for the faithful and peaceful Hindus that some politically and socially influencial goShTis--groups, who call themselves atheists and rationalists seek to blindly criticize anything and everything relating to Hinduism, looking at things with their jaundiced eyes. Sadder still is that some of our friends follow their prejudiced and hypocritical propaganda, taking the texts at their face value. Let us also note that our friend Nara who goes to great lengths to explain the VaiShNava concepts and verses in his posts, appears to slant and slight when it comes to Shaiva texts.

 

[sapthajihva]

Shri Nara,

...We have not fully defined what intelligence is, and there are problems with precisely defining it in a mutually agreeable way. There are many inanimate objects that nominally exhibit what we understand as intelligence. Once programmed, my alarm clock comes on automatically. This, for a primitive human, may look like intelligence. A future robot, like Data of Star Trek, may be indistinguishable from flesh and blood humans. So, intelligence may very well be a result of a set of instructions coded in the genes, a very non-intelligent medium.

It could be that the understanding of the object in question, as inanimate, was itself erroneous...

By intelligence, I meant the conscious awareness of the knowledge of itself and others. Is that ok with you?

You could probably assemble and re-assemble your alarm clock, and it would still work (assuming that all parts were/are working. You could also probably change the strap, the dial, etc. several times. And probably, you need only to change the battery for it to keep on ticking.

Unfortunately, intelligent beings have none of the above characteristics - you cannot assemble & reassemble intelligent beings; neither can you change the parts nor keep it forever.

But anyway, you are just running on probabilities, which is not relevant here.

...It is not logical to presume there must be an intelligent cause for this. You can do this only by appealing to religious dogma.

I am consciously avoiding religious tenets here...

Now, permit me to illustrate the point that I am not drawing from religion (I assume that the question is whether there is a creator?)

-> All things/events in this world have a cause and effect. We have observed this for centuries; there are several fields in which this assumption has worked well, eg. the medical field. Events that were probably not clearly identified with cause-effect relationship have been identified now, with the advancement in information. It, therefore, becomes essential that this relationship should be satisfied if we were to go about an inquiry on the cause of life.

-> Leading on, if we were to say on one side, that there was a cause of all causes (including its own), with the contradiction being an infinite regress, then, by the principle of occam's razor (your favourite?), we should agree to the former.

-> The question of 'I', of awareness, of a conscious survival instinct cannot be answered otherwise. One cannot say that the brain has been programmed so. Why has it been programmed so? Why, for survival? If awareness is just a result of the brain's program, then, we should be able to revive the awareness in a corpse by stimulating the brain activity.

-> A child with no knowledge of science behing the workings of the world would probably fail to understand how science works (for that matter, anything) unless and until, it learns to 1) observe 2) simulate & 3) analyse the results. Similarly, one cannot, without going through the process, merely voice an opinion that a force other than casuality cannot be the reason.

-> There are examples of individuals who recollect their past janma during hypnosis or even otherwise. While science continues to progress, so does our dharma...

Hence, it cannot be a simple 'I do not know' when the reality is staring in our faces. That perhaps, could serve as the next best reason to 'I dont want to believe'...

Regards,

 

[Iyest]

sravna, thank you for your pointer, but then, it is too easy to say 'I don't know'... ... and it does not serve any purpose, does it...! .

On the contrary, it could be the first baby step into self inquiry. One might then realize that the focus must shift to the 'I' who says it does not know. That is the first step to break away from 'science' which is restricted to analysis and measurements of only the external /objective world.

 

[Nara]

Dear sravna,

It is difficult to continue our debate if you appeal to special pleading. If what you are saying is beyond comprehension, then the argument per force has to end right there. Anything goes, Scientology any one?

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

The question is that if it cannot be debated, then any claim can be made on the basis that it is outside our dimension.

The conclusion that there is a cause, and that there is a force (sustaining or whatever), should be the result of irrefutable logic and not by mere assertion.

I am treading this line of reasoning with Shri Nara to see whether logic and reason can be used to determine the presence of an 'unknown'.

Regards,

Logic and reason is based on thinking and thought/knowledge is limited. Though very useful in the world of phenomena, it cannot grasp the limitless 'unknown'. It can only speculate and theorize about it. Sages say that the limited instrument of thought cannot be used to comprehend the unlimited. One has to start with a still mind for this enquiry. Obviously it is easier said than done.

 

[Nara]

, Sundarar in stanza 395 says ` செம்மையே திருநாளைபோவார்கும் அடியேன்'

Dear RVR sir, SV literature is full of this அடியார்க்கு அடியேன் business. None of this theory made into actual sustained practice. Even if you claim Nandanar did it to himself, he did it because of the caste identity hammered into his psyche. It is Sekkizhar who repeatedly says Nandanar could not enter the temple because of his lowly birth. What kind of a society is that? Can any one of us say a dalit body is impure to enter a temple, but a brahmin body is just fine? What is the use of all these

But, if you strip all the myth like dream and stuff from Sekkizhar's narration, it is crystal clear Nandanar was put to death in an ordeal by fire.

Nandanar type story is not unique to Hindus, Joan of Arc was also burnt alive at the stake and later elevated to sainthood. Such is the power of religious orthodoxy.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

when atheists declare that there is no god,do they even know,what they are declaring about.an atheist is born from a man and woman,just like normal people do.by regressing,one will go cyclic only.where is the start or end,as from 0 to 360 is just an arbitary points detrmined via an assumption of 0 and 360.that is why our sastras state,athma is niether born nor does it die,its only the body which is created sustained dissolved.atheists are concerned only with body attachments,for they fail to understand,that athma is the doer and athma has a body,owing to karma vasanas.dalits bodies are the same as any other bodies,our society knows that,if the body is stinking unkept and an eyesore,then only society shuns them.even when immaculate considerations are taken care for the body,then kicks in the athma shuddhi of ones thought speech actions,to be in sath chit ananda.athiest are 'a theist' .agnostics are just one step behind atheists.rationalists are mainly concerned about life like a charavakhan.india has had its schools of people adhering to various in number of darshanas.material oppulence and material wealth is all that matters to these people and no amount of bhakthi,will instill reverence to god,unless god himself/herself redeems them,after all god is a puppeteer and we all are puppets.

 

[Nara]

Dear Saptha,

I have no problem agreeing that all effects most probably have causes, but this cannot be claimed as irrefutable fact. For that, we must observe all possible effects and relate each one to a particular set of causes. This is why we need probability. So, all we can say is, it is very likely that effects must have causes.

Even after this, we cannot say that an intelligent agent, with or without planning and forethought, must be the cause for all effects, intelligent or otherwise. You have stated that intelligent effects can arise only from intelligent cause, why? (You see I have some why questions also)

There are lots of why questions that cannot answered definitively. Only science can take us closer to reality. Only science can tell us whether the recall of so-called previous birth experiences in hypnosis is valid or not. I don't think any of this is so true to say they are staring at your face.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR sir, SV literature is full of this அடியார்க்கு அடியேன் business. None of this theory made into actual sustained practice. Even if you claim Nandanar did it to himself, he did it because of the caste identity hammered into his psyche. It is Sekkizhar who repeatedly says Nandanar could not enter the temple because of his lowly birth. What kind of a society is that? Can any one of us say a dalit body is impure to enter a temple, but a brahmin body is just fine? What is the use of all these

But, if you strip all the myth like dream and stuff from Sekkizhar's narration, it is crystal clear Nandanar was put to death in an ordeal by fire.

Nandanar type story is not unique to Hindus, Joan of Arc was also burnt alive at the stake and later elevated to sainthood. Such is the power of religious orthodoxy.

Cheers!

It is the so called lower castes who have developed an inferiority complex themselves.

It happened about four months back in our own village. Majority of the TB community has left the village and we reassembled in end December 2009 at our village to revamp the village. We were surprised when some members belonging NB community (Not daliths) fell at our feet. We told them plainly to stop all these non-sense.

It is the illiteracy which is driving them to such behavior. All communities should literate first and command self respect.

The so called self respect as well as communist movements have misguided them without really focusing on Human Development.

When all these things are happening in front of us in the twenty first century, there is no point in discussing whatever happened thousands of years back.

Today all these people say that village has become bad because our community has left the village. We told them that it is not correct.

Unlike USA and UK, we had full fledged democracy from day one. But democracy is totally misused here without real development at the village level.

Caste is not preventing anybody to develop. It is the attitude of individuals which is most important.

Even today, our community dispersed globally are getting united through this forum. We are not talking or doing anything against any other community. On the contrary we are trying to do some thing good for the entire society.

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

the reason why usa,uk..etc develop becoz,all share well amongst themselves,as citizens first,plus the population is less for an area which is vast in acreage.in india we first say,i am a tamilian,i am a malayali,i am a telegu,i am a kannadiga,the day we start saying first we are Indians,automatically,sharing will take place.discrimination is part of life,either discriminated owing to status wealth color caste education,its a beast which is dormant inherent in all,which can be transformed into a divine nature by prpping the positie mental attitude constantly.conning shud stop,from top to bottom.political leaders have t know the power of sacrifice,many leaders do even today,i am hopeful education literacy will spread with edu care at every level.maybe its time to call by sva-dharma or karma or actions what they do to label a caste.

 

[nachi naga]

intelligence can come only from intelligence just as man/woman can come from man/woman combination of sexual deed.intelligence is swayambhu,self-generated.know your self by yourself,to know intelligence,whats the fricking difficulty here?

 

[sravna]

Nara Ji,

Kindly say which of the following you find not comprehensible:

1. Every entity in the physical universe exists in space and experiences time.
2. Each entity perceives physical reality which we call direct observation
3. This perception of physical reality or direct observation is really added value when it is interpreted by the mind. The greater the
ability of the mind to interpret or go beyond the physical reality, the
greater is its ability to see the hidden reality.

One would definitely say that the hidden reality is more reflective of true reality as it is done by a higher faculty.

To illustrate, when someone falls down, it invokes amusement in some people, sympathy in some other and something else on some more. Seeing the person falling down is the perception of physical reality and the interpretation of it is the mental perception. Which
of these two perceptions sounds deeper, the perception of the act or the perception that he deserves sympathy?

My point is there is a reality beyond the physical reality and we are not able to appreciate it because we are so used to associating reality with something we directly perceive.

One would say that the mental perception cannot occur without physical perception but when the mind becomes fully developed and turns spiritual it is fit to comprehend the highest reality and that which is in sync with that reality has no need for the lower level physical existence or experience.

 

[Nara]

Dear sravna,

You said the creator exists in a plane where questions like who and when do not arise and that plane cannot be comprehended with an analytical approach. Under such terms there cannot be any argument.

Even the Vedas do not claim what you are claiming. Vedas do specify a place where the supreme resides, whether it is Kailasam or Vaikuntam. They do say time exists in these places, but act differently, i.e. the residents do not age etc.

Anyway, here are my questions to you. Please answer them without appealing to special pleadings like incomprehensibility, etc.

If there is a creator, who created the creator?
If the creator exists without a creator, then why must the material universe need a creator to exist?

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Nara Ji,

Material universe needs a creator to exist because the creation of the universe has to be caused. If it is caused by natural physical forces what caused them?

There is no other way out of this but to necessitate the existence of a timeless entity which caused the creation of material universe even if we are not able to comprehend the concept of timelessness.

 

[Nara]

Material universe needs a creator to exist because the creation of the universe has to be caused.

Why is this self-evident?

If it is caused by natural physical forces what caused them?

There is no other way out of this but to necessitate the existence of a timeless entity which caused the creation of material universe even if we are not able to comprehend the concept of timelessness.

Sorry sravna, necessitating a timeless entity that cannot be comprehended, to answer a question you are not able to answer, is what one calls special pleading, a logical fallasy.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

It is self-evident because anything that is created has a beginning. Anything that has a beginning or that did not exist before cannot be its own cause

 

[Nara]

sravna, For you material universe is caused, but the creator of this universe is timeless and therefore not caused, is just self-serving set of assertions. Try as long as it wants, a dog chasing its own tail will never catch it. peace ....